|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
28th August 2017, 08:33 PM | #1441 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
Is our MJ a Del Shannon fan?
He seems to be running away from my earlier question: Why are you ignoring this question? http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1388 Cite, and you still haven't answered my earlier question: What's backspatter in relation to the JFK GSW? |
|||
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
||||
28th August 2017, 11:47 PM | #1442 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,556
|
|
29th August 2017, 01:24 AM | #1443 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
|
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
29th August 2017, 05:07 AM | #1444 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,733
|
|
29th August 2017, 08:46 AM | #1445 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
[ct]Ferrie didn't actually die of an aneurysm; he was poisoned, but the local medical examiner was bribed and/or coerced to report that Ferrie's death was from natural causes. This wouldn't have worked with JFK; he was too high-profile, and there would have been too many important witnesses to his autopsy.[/ct] |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
29th August 2017, 08:59 AM | #1446 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
|
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
29th August 2017, 10:27 AM | #1447 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
The wound near the external occipital protuberance in the back of Kennedy's head, presumably of entrance, is more than enough evidence of conspiracy. At the moment, it seems like the existent photographs and X-rays on Kennedy's body are ambiguous to showing any kind of entrance wound at all, but the strong statements of the autopsy doctors and the six other autopsy witnesses are strong enough evidence because they corroborate each other appropriately.
|
29th August 2017, 10:33 AM | #1448 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
|
|
29th August 2017, 10:42 AM | #1449 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
Why are you ignoring this question?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1388 Cite, and you still haven't answered my earlier question: What's backspatter in relation to the JFK GSW? |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
29th August 2017, 11:09 AM | #1450 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,556
|
I dont want no trouble Marshall, I'm just passin through town. I'll be on my way presently sir. Like I said:
Quote:
As mentioned here, the 'hollywood' version was a factor, so I thought I'd come here and ask. Thank you kindly. edit: meaning the hollywood hype was a factor |
29th August 2017, 11:54 AM | #1451 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
|
29th August 2017, 12:05 PM | #1452 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,733
|
All of the evidence shown by the autopsy directly contradicts you presumption, it was an entrance wound.
Quote:
Quote:
from the back, right and higher. |
29th August 2017, 12:09 PM | #1453 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
The entrance wound in the back of the head was low enough to remove the brain without disturbing said entrance wound in the skull. That is what Dr. Finck always said, starting with his Warren Commission testimony, then further clarified in his Bloomberg report, then consistently on and on until he died.
|
29th August 2017, 12:20 PM | #1454 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
|
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
29th August 2017, 12:21 PM | #1455 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
|
|
29th August 2017, 12:32 PM | #1456 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,607
|
|
__________________
@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
|
29th August 2017, 12:42 PM | #1457 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,733
|
|
29th August 2017, 12:57 PM | #1458 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
The "cowlick" part of the skull was right beside the large defect (which you call the exit wound, although the autopsy doctors always stated that external beveling could only be observed on skull fragments that were previously blasted out in Dealey Plaza). So any entrance wound in the "cowlick" part of the skull would be among the portions of the skull removed to facilitate the removal of the brain.
Dr. Finck arrived at the autopsy after the brain had already been removed, and he always said that he could examine (and witness the photographing of) the small hole in the skull indicating an entrance. For many reasons, the entire top of the skull, including the "cowlick" part, is removed during an autopsy to facilitate removal of the brain. |
29th August 2017, 01:00 PM | #1459 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
The Warren Commission endorsed the EOP location for the entrance wound in the back of the head. The "cowlick" location for the entrance wound in the back of the head was developed by the Clark panel and the HSCA. The wide difference between the two locations was clearly addressed for the first time in Dr. Finck's 1969 testimony at the trial of Clay Shaw, in which he went on the record disagreeing with the Clark panel's upper "cowlick" placement of the entrance wound.
|
29th August 2017, 01:15 PM | #1460 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,607
|
Either you are unfamiliar with the WC, or your definition of "EOP" is a movable feast.
Quite aside from figure 29, the body of the WC makes it quite clear the autopsy is accurate. Mr Finck's later rememberances are less reliable than contemporary records, because they are just that, rememberances. |
__________________
@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
|
29th August 2017, 01:20 PM | #1461 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
|
|
29th August 2017, 01:48 PM | #1462 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
Do you believe on faith that the red spot on the BOH photographs is THE entrance wound described by the doctors/the autopsy report? Drs. Humes, Boswell, Finck, the autopsy photographer John Stringer, and X-ray technician John Ebersole specifically denied that the red spot is an entry wound. Humes and Finck suggested that it could be a drop of blood, while Boswell stated to the HSCA and the ARRB that the red spot is an injury in the scalp related to the large head wound.
It is true that hair is parted in autopsy photographs to expose wounds that cannot be exposed by shaving hair, as shown in Scott a. Wagner's book Color Atlas of the Autopsy here: But, as Boswell said, it could have been a wound in the scalp, albeit not THE entrance wound. And the autopsy doctors always said that the hair did not need to be parted or washed to expose THE entrance wound. Also notice how the wounds in the photographs shown above show, well, a hole! A wound devoid of scalp AND skull. The red spot on the BOH autopsy photographs appears little more than two-dimensional. Dr. Humes said that the ruler in the BOH photographs is to provide scale, not to measure the red spot. The fashion Kennedy's hair is parted also differs between photographs. Autopsy photographs have also gone missing. So no matter how you approach it, cowlickers are taking autopsy photographs out of context. |
29th August 2017, 01:50 PM | #1463 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
C'mon MJ:
You are the one that used the term. A generic description of backspatter doesn't explain why you used that term and what you believe the term means in the context of JFK's GSW to the head. What does the backspatter as observed in the Z film tell us? |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
29th August 2017, 01:51 PM | #1464 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,607
|
Unfortunately, Micha Java's opinion of what a wound should, or should not, look like is not an accurate measure of if the photographs show a blatant wound.
|
__________________
@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
|
29th August 2017, 01:51 PM | #1465 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
These are the drawings made under the supervision of Dr. Humes as an accurate representation of the small head wound:
It appears near the EOP. The Warren Commission endorsed the EOP wound. The existence of the EOP wound is a separate matter than the existence of more than one gunshot to Kennedy's head. The Warren Commission obviously endorsed only one gunshot to the head. |
29th August 2017, 01:54 PM | #1466 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
Okay, well not only was Dr. Pierre Finck experienced in gunshot wound autopsies before the assassination, he was a participant in the actual autopsy of JFK, and other gunshot wound autopsies afterwards. He always said the red spot on the BOH photographs was not the entry wound. Deal?
|
29th August 2017, 02:16 PM | #1467 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
29th August 2017, 03:12 PM | #1468 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
You're make a lot of assumptions that are not supported by the evidence. More important is the fact that since the bulk of the autopsy photos remain restricted to public view you have no idea what they [the pathologists] actually saw, and to refute their testimony, and findings without any concrete counter evidence is ridiculous. I should throw in the fact that Pathologists have an additional 10 years of education before they get to practice, and you- a YouTube commando with a Google Tab are in no way qualified to counter anything they say on any level.
Quote:
We get it, you need a conspiracy to hang your world view on, but if there was on involved with the murder of JFK you won't find it in Dealey Plaza. The ballistics alone slam the door on that party. |
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
29th August 2017, 03:27 PM | #1469 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
Neat.
Which one is made by a 6.5x52mm bullet? I'm guessing none of them. The FBI and Secret Service had to buy Carcanos and shoot hundreds of rounds into various targets before they understood the performance of the bullet.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So they just took a photo of the back of the head for no reason?
Quote:
Wonder what that does to a guy's hairstyle?
Quote:
Quote:
We haven't seen them, so we're not stupid enough to confuse conjecture with fact. We don't use them in context because we don't use them at all. You're the guy posting them...just like the Bigfooters post the Patterson Film stills, you see what you want to see. |
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
29th August 2017, 05:22 PM | #1470 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
Drs. Humes and Boswell always said that virtually so sawing the skull was necessary to create a skull cavity large enough to remove the brain. The area of skull around the large defect was so damaged, that portions of skull bone would naturally separate in their hands. This allows little precision. Since the cowlick mark on the X-ray purported to be an entry wound is right beside the large defect, that area would have been among the portions of skull to come off.
Even if the skull was in a condition that allowed typical sawing, the "cowlick" portion of the skull would have to be among the areas separated, otherwise you could not separate or remove the brain. |
29th August 2017, 05:29 PM | #1471 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
|
|
29th August 2017, 07:05 PM | #1472 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
"Backspatter" you used the term more than once. Why can't you explain what it means in your own (presumably) words past a generic description?
If you can't explain what the words mean in the context you used them, the only reasonable answer is that you glom onto words and terms and use them without understanding what they mean. Pretty sad, especially for somebody that favorably compares their intellectual position with Aristotle and Plato. I think you may have more in common with The Sicilian Lawyer:
|
|||
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
||||
29th August 2017, 07:16 PM | #1473 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
|
29th August 2017, 07:47 PM | #1474 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
You'd better go back to whatever Ctist website you picked this crap up from, because "backspatter" as you are applying it to the Z film is incorrect.
"Back Spatter" describes a type of arterial bleeding, but the application of forensic science involved in it's evaluation does not involve the evaluation of video footage. it is related to blood stains on materials or persons at the scene of a death or injury. It is not exclusive to projectile impacts only and falls into different categories of blood stains depending on the type of weapon used, climate, etc. http://www.forensicsciencesimplified...rinciples.html Blood spatter is categorized as impact spatter (created when a force is applied to a liquid blood source) or projection spatter (caused by arterial spurting, expirated spray or spatter cast off an object). The characteristics of blood spatter depend on the speed at which the blood leaves the body and the type of force applied to the blood source. And further: http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.../glossary.html "Backspatter Pattern - A bloodstain pattern resulting from blood drops that traveled in the opposite direction of the external force applied; associated with an entrance wound created by a projectile." To be fair, you or somebody else probably ran into this: https://www.azflse.org/download.cfm?...loc=csiarizona "Back Spatter -- Blood directed back towards the source of energy or force that caused the spatter" Saw a nifty term that sounded all sciency, but didn't read the rest of the material that related back spatter to blood stain pattern analysis. |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
29th August 2017, 08:08 PM | #1475 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
|
BStrong, your sources only use that wording because it is assumed that a gunshot wounding incident would not have a video of it happening.
|
29th August 2017, 09:31 PM | #1476 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
And yet they still sawed the skull cap off as per the standard autopsy protocol, as per Dr. Humes' statement. They cut where they had to cut, and worked around the damage where they could not cut, this is a painfully simple concept for everyone else reading this thread.
|
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
29th August 2017, 09:36 PM | #1477 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
So what's the percentage of headshots that occur on camera verses headshots where there are few or no witnesses (other than the killer)?
Just asking for my police friends to make their job easier in case there's some giant visual archive of murder they don't know about. The great-but-sad thing about the United States is our collective knowledge of gunshot wounds to almost every part of the human body. |
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
29th August 2017, 09:38 PM | #1478 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
|
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
29th August 2017, 09:55 PM | #1479 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,607
|
|
__________________
@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
|
30th August 2017, 12:15 AM | #1480 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
You (or some other CT monger) used the term "backspatter" because you or they didn't know what it means and had no idea that somebody else did know what the tern means and would call you out on your ignorance.
Par for the course with you in this thread. Aristotle and Plato would not approve. At some point even a train wreck comes to a stop, but you seem to be a perpetual motion machine of fail. |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|