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12th October 2017, 09:56 PM | #1841 |
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None of your sources meet the criteria specified in #2. None of those conspiracy sources tested CE139 -- the assassination weapon found on the sixth floor. They all tested only the same model rifle.
So if the criteria is "6.5 Carcano rounds fired through CE139" then we've got the HSCA firearms panel reproducing that damage in one in four test bullets. And the FBI creating one damaged shell without even trying to*) in two test results examined by the HSCA panel. Hank ______________ * The FBI tests were done for the Warren Commission for other purposes, not to try to create a damaged shell. The damaged shell argument didn't appear until the Warren Commission concluded their deliberations, issued their report, and published their 26 volumes of evidence. Critics only raised the issue for the first time after looking at CE543 in the report volumes of evidence. |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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12th October 2017, 09:58 PM | #1842 |
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And all you do is cite your CT source again, no original research. And certainly no original or independent thought process. You just repeat what they say.
Chew on what they say a while. As your own CT source admits:
Quote:
So tell us: How does the ejector mechanism know to only dent empty cases that weren't fired? Can you explain that? Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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12th October 2017, 10:02 PM | #1843 |
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Because your own source admits he can reproduce the damage when he ejects an empty shell:
Quote:
We're waiting for you to present one. Why do you think the ejector mechanism can know when it's ejecting a empty shell that was just fired, or an empty shell being recycled through the chamber an additional time? How does the ejector mechanism know that, and only work on shells loaded empty? Try thinking about the evidence you presented. And why the argument you presented is flawed. Get back to us when you understand the problem with your argument. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 02:50 AM | #1844 |
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Hank - I forgot that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests. So I will not say that he is lying for now, even though Donahue claims to know that a dented shell case was never found. But it's certainly misleading to quote his "one in four" estimation. Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing. Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.
I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case, but who ever said guns don't act weird? |
13th October 2017, 03:33 AM | #1845 |
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Gosh, if guns act weird, what is the significance of a dented shell? One could just say it dented a spent shell on ejection, and put it down to guns being weird.
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13th October 2017, 05:24 AM | #1846 |
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Fixed that for you.
Donahue wasn't part of the HSCA firearms team. How would he know either way? And you're ignoring the fact that one in two shells fired in FBI tests for the Warren Commission resulted in a dented lip as well. And by accepting Donahue's hearsay claim (provided only by conspiracy theorist Mike Griffith and never established independently) and rejecting the Lutz claim in testimony before the US House of Representatives, you're back in the realm of now attempting to prove a negative. How did Donahue establish such a dented shell was never reproduced? Did he examine every cartridge case ever ejected from every MC ever produced? Of course not. Tell us how Griffith's claim about what Donahue's said could possibly be established as true. It can't be, because you can't prove a negative. Why? The FBI had a one in two chance of reproducing that, and they weren't even trying to reproduce it (it wasn't a CT argument at the time of the FBI tests. So now you tell us it's not one in 60 but two in about 70 or 80 trials for Mills. That's more like 1 in 35 or 1 in 40. And if Mills had stopped after getting an empty shell the first time? Then it would be more like 1 in 10 or 1 in 20. Either way, Mills getting TWO dented lips on shells in about 80 trials establishes it's not that unusual. If Elvis was a gun nut, he would say: "Thank you. Thank you very much." Lutz' testimony is he worked the bolt very rapidly to achieve the dented lip. If Mills did these tests consecutively, there is muscle fatigue on Mills part to consider. Did Mills cycle the bolt with the same amount of force for 70 or 80 consecutive trials? You have no clue. Your attempt to assign a number here is bogus. Of course you know nothing about guns, so you don't know how the ejector mechanism could tell the difference between an empty shell being ejected after firing, and an empty shell being ejected after being reloaded into the chamber empty. Hint: There is no difference. The ejector mechanism can't tell the difference. All it has is an empty shell in the chamber at that point. Working the bolt ejects the shell, and sometimes dents the lip -- according to your source, Mills; according to Lutz and Champagne, my sources; and it even happened to the FBI in 1964 when they fired the rifle in tests for the Warren Commission. Adding all that up, we have about a 5% chance of obtaining a dented lip*, even if we grant Mills was exempt from normal muscle fatigue. So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip. Hank ___________________ * Including Mills totals, that's 2 in about 70 (or 80) + 1 in 4 + 1 in 2, or a total of 4 in 74 (or 84). 4/74 is 5.4%. 4/84 is 4.8%. Something that happens 1 in about 20 times is not all that remarkable. |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 05:27 AM | #1847 |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 05:35 AM | #1848 |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 05:43 AM | #1849 |
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13th October 2017, 05:58 AM | #1850 |
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MJ, since you have an issue with understanding heresay, I'll cite a definition for you
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay
Quote:
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13th October 2017, 10:53 AM | #1851 |
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Did Oswald suffer any "complications" with his rifle when he was making his previous murder attempt? Or did they only manifest themselves in Deally Plaza?
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13th October 2017, 11:28 AM | #1852 |
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You're in no way qualified to say if he's lying or not.
Quote:
Once again your assertions, parroted for other CT nutjobs, does not match the evidence.
Quote:
Quote:
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13th October 2017, 11:57 AM | #1853 |
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The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.
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13th October 2017, 12:53 PM | #1854 |
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13th October 2017, 01:02 PM | #1855 |
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Quote:
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13th October 2017, 01:10 PM | #1856 |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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13th October 2017, 01:50 PM | #1857 |
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No, the best you can say is Donahue couldn't reproduce it in his (HOW MANY?) trials. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
And since we know the ejector mechanism did this twice for Mills, once for the FBI, and once for the HSCA, we're done here. It's not as rare or as unlikely as you and your sources pretend. Theories in this case are like nether region orifices. Everybody's got one. The prevailing theory is the shell originally held one of the three bullets fired, and got the damaged lip when it was ejected from the chamber. Even your conspiracy theorist Mills admits he could reproduce it. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 01:58 PM | #1858 |
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13th October 2017, 02:01 PM | #1859 |
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I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.
1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials 1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests ______________________________ 2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined. 2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three. That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination. One damaged shell out of three. Let me know where the math lost you. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 02:08 PM | #1860 |
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It would bother me enough for me to reconsider my position if every argument I advanced in favor of a conspiracy could be shot down when examining the true facts of the case.
And that's exactly what happened to me in the early 198s when I sat down with the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of evidence & the HSCA volumes and tried to resolve the differences between the Warren Report & HSCA's account of the assassination and the story I was getting from the conspiracy books. I found out the conspiracy books contained a lot of hooey. Jean: You have a similar story that you shared on Prodigy what seems like yesterday, don't you? Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2017, 02:13 PM | #1861 |
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It's a product of this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...s-mind/534231/ "Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts." |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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13th October 2017, 03:50 PM | #1862 |
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13th October 2017, 06:11 PM | #1863 |
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13th October 2017, 06:21 PM | #1864 |
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Let's start with is scientific method.
A legitimate experiment would involve simulating firing from the height, and position Oswald was in on the 6th floor set up with identical cardboard boxes, and beam on a sawhorse to recreate the windowsill. Then you sit there and dry-fire and eject your casings 1,000 times (or more). Throwing casings on the ground brings you no closer to understanding the problem than timing how long they float in a sink filled with water. This is the casing in question: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305147 It is clear that the dent is not as dramatic as the CT bozos want you to believe. |
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13th October 2017, 07:24 PM | #1865 |
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So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.
The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up. Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected. |
13th October 2017, 07:41 PM | #1866 |
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13th October 2017, 09:23 PM | #1867 |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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14th October 2017, 12:14 AM | #1868 |
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Here's a link:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zimmerman...enu_000009.htm Note that at no time does he say he threw them as hard as he could into the pavement. |
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14th October 2017, 08:24 AM | #1869 |
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[quote=Jean Davison;12033387]So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.
... QUOTE] If you've lurked very long, that is precisely MJ's MO, not interested in facts or science just out of context remarks, observations that have no science behind them. In short anything that may "support" his/her CT beliefs is taken without question and anything is critically obfuscated with voodoo comments. |
14th October 2017, 09:21 AM | #1870 |
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Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...75&postcount=1 On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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14th October 2017, 09:31 AM | #1871 |
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"Anybody but Oswald" is the CT mantra. FBI memos that suggest something even remotely conspiratorial are accepted without question, and anything pointing to Oswald is questioned to the Nth degree.
John Armstrong is among the worst in this regard. The FBI interviewed roughly 25,000 people (I think it was) in tracking down leads. A good portion of that is bound to contain some poor recollections and hearsay about neighbors that goes nowhere. Armstrong (who devised an entire theory built around the thesis that there were TWO Oswalds created by some intelligence agency since Oswald was a youth (complete with two different mothers) uses those poor recollections and hearsay as a goldmine, taking recollections of people who may be thinking of other people entirely as part of Oswald's false background and evidence he was doubled. http://harveyandlee.net/ It's just more nonsense. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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14th October 2017, 10:52 AM | #1872 |
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Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth.
EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all |
14th October 2017, 12:57 PM | #1873 |
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I'm a reformed CTist, JFK opened the door to that world thanks to my dad, who just couldn't believe Oswald did it alone.
I read ALL of the JFK CT books: Lane, Lifton, Mars, and close to twenty others in my day. The last one was "Oswald Talked" in 1996. I come it this purely as an act of penance for all the BS I spread during my time as a CT-loon. I went to Dallas in 1996 and visited the 6th Floor Museum. It was instantly obvious that I had bought into a lie. It was just a damned easy shot from the 6th floor, and everything I had read told me it was impossible. Then standing on the sidewalk below the Grassy Knoll I realized that a gunman would have been visible - even in the worst photos and films. In 1999 I began research for a book I hoped to write about an Army division, and that lead me to the firing range. That same year I took a pre-police academy class, and did a few ride-alongs with local cops. Between listening to hundreds of stories about guys shooting all kinds of weapons, shooting an MP-5, HK 40 USP, M-16A2, and a Benelli at the range, and observing good cops up close I was forced to change my world view. Law Enforcement does the best they can with what they have, which isn't nearly enough. This applies to city, county, state, and federal agencies. Americans have a false sense of police forensic capabilities thanks to TV shows where CSI solves the crime in an hour, and a poor education in general science thanks to our school systems. This makes for unrealistic expectations from the public, and their elected representatives about what law enforcement can produce in the way of definitive evidence. There is rarely 100% certainty based on the physical evidence alone, that's why good investigations look into the suspect's activities prior to the crime looking for motivation, and then look at what the suspect did after the crime to look for strange behavior. So when you look at Oswald what do you see? A guy with no money buying a cheap Italian Carcano rifle at a time when his marriage is falling apart. Shortly afterword someone fires a 6.5x52mm Carcano round through the window of General Walker's house, missing the target because he'd stooped to pick up a pen. Later, JFK is murdered by a gunman shooting from the 6th floor of the TSBD by a 6.5x52mm rifle. Oswald works on the 6th floor, and had bought something long wrapped in paper with him to work that morning. Police search the 6th floor and find Oswald's rifle and spent shells. In the mean time, Oswald had left the building, hopped a bus, then took a taxi to his rooming house where he put on his jacket, and took his pistol. A short distance away DPD Officer JD Tippet is shot, the bullets match Oswald's gun - which he not only has on him at the time of his arrest but tries to shoot another cop in the process. Here's the KISS part: Oswald's rifle killed Kennedy, and wounded Connally. Oswald fled the scene. Oswald's handgun was used to kill Tippet, and Oswald then used the same gun to attempt to kill another DPD officer. Oswald is guilty of two murders on 11.22.63. |
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14th October 2017, 01:09 PM | #1874 |
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Although my father believed that mafiosi were responsible for the assassination, he was no amateur. When the "magic bullet" jive started going around he knew instantly that the problem was the improper alignment of JFK and Connally in the vehicle, not a magic projectile.
He also stated upon seeing the first photos of LHO- "That ******* won't last a week." I thought my Dad was a pretty savvy guy before he said that. When Ruby shot and killed LHO I was convinced he must have known just about everything. |
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16th October 2017, 06:02 AM | #1875 |
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Where did you get the part about a 2 in 6 chance from the FBI? If that is a fact, then it appears that by some mechanism you are more likely to get a dented shell casing if its one of the first rounds you eject and/or fire. All three experiments including Chris Millis found a hull, empty or not, with a dented lip on the first few tries.
BTW There is another non-conspiratorial interpretation of CE543 that might account for other anomalies. It could be used as a chamber plug. Howard Donahue used the chamber plug idea to push a single-assassin theory. But if you download that 2016 edition of Reclaiming Parkland, you will find a longer interesting discussion about each of the three shell casings. |
16th October 2017, 06:09 AM | #1876 |
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16th October 2017, 06:15 AM | #1877 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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16th October 2017, 06:15 AM | #1878 |
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Bknight, I noticed you mentioned Okla. City Bombing. I believe that there was a wider right-wing conspiracy that was covered up by the FBI because they knew they couldn't find everybody. Especially in this political climate, I think it's about time people started talking about the fact that OKC was done by a handful of right-wing extremists, and not just evil Timothy McVeigh and poor Terry Nichols. Even the mainstream media constantly covered evidence for conspiracy in the OKC case. You know it's bad when the media doesn't buy it. Publications like the NY Times, The Guardian, Associated Press, Denver Post would have stories raising concerns over possible right-wing extremists suspects of OKC.
Here is my favorate smoking gun of OKC: Richard Wayne Snell. http://okbomb.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Wayne_Snell This article is under construction by me, but it's an accurate summary. I do not wish to continue a discussion about OKC here because this is not the right thread. |
16th October 2017, 06:16 AM | #1879 |
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16th October 2017, 06:18 AM | #1880 |
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