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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , JFK assassination , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 12th October 2017, 09:56 PM   #1841
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
1. Failure to move your eyeballs up to see my source that I already posted.

2. Failure to stick to the subject of 6.5 Carcano rounds fired through CE139.
None of your sources meet the criteria specified in #2. None of those conspiracy sources tested CE139 -- the assassination weapon found on the sixth floor. They all tested only the same model rifle.

So if the criteria is "6.5 Carcano rounds fired through CE139" then we've got the HSCA firearms panel reproducing that damage in one in four test bullets. And the FBI creating one damaged shell without even trying to*) in two test results examined by the HSCA panel.

Hank
______________
* The FBI tests were done for the Warren Commission for other purposes, not to try to create a damaged shell. The damaged shell argument didn't appear until the Warren Commission concluded their deliberations, issued their report, and published their 26 volumes of evidence. Critics only raised the issue for the first time after looking at CE543 in the report volumes of evidence.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:58 PM   #1842
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
What did your actual research uncover about dented spent casings? Not what your one CT website told you to think.
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
And all you do is cite your CT source again, no original research. And certainly no original or independent thought process. You just repeat what they say.

Chew on what they say a while. As your own CT source admits:
Quote:
... similar damage can be caused by loading an empty case into the weapon.
But they are all empty cases after the bullet is fired.

So tell us: How does the ejector mechanism know to only dent empty cases that weren't fired?

Can you explain that?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 12th October 2017, 10:02 PM   #1843
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Why do you think the dented lip on CE543 is nothing to worry about?
Because your own source admits he can reproduce the damage when he ejects an empty shell:
Quote:
... similar damage can be caused by loading an empty case into the weapon.
That's why.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I think you skipped the part where you present an argument with evidence.
We're waiting for you to present one. Why do you think the ejector mechanism can know when it's ejecting a empty shell that was just fired, or an empty shell being recycled through the chamber an additional time?

How does the ejector mechanism know that, and only work on shells loaded empty?

Try thinking about the evidence you presented. And why the argument you presented is flawed.

Get back to us when you understand the problem with your argument.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 13th October 2017, 02:50 AM   #1844
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Hank - I forgot that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests. So I will not say that he is lying for now, even though Donahue claims to know that a dented shell case was never found. But it's certainly misleading to quote his "one in four" estimation. Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing. Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.

I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case, but who ever said guns don't act weird?

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Old 13th October 2017, 03:33 AM   #1845
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Gosh, if guns act weird, what is the significance of a dented shell? One could just say it dented a spent shell on ejection, and put it down to guns being weird.
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:24 AM   #1846
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Hank - I forgot never knew until you pointed it out that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests.
Fixed that for you.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So I will not say that he is lying for now, even though Donahue claims to know that a dented shell case was never found.
Donahue wasn't part of the HSCA firearms team. How would he know either way? And you're ignoring the fact that one in two shells fired in FBI tests for the Warren Commission resulted in a dented lip as well.

And by accepting Donahue's hearsay claim (provided only by conspiracy theorist Mike Griffith and never established independently) and rejecting the Lutz claim in testimony before the US House of Representatives, you're back in the realm of now attempting to prove a negative. How did Donahue establish such a dented shell was never reproduced? Did he examine every cartridge case ever ejected from every MC ever produced? Of course not. Tell us how Griffith's claim about what Donahue's said could possibly be established as true. It can't be, because you can't prove a negative.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
But it's certainly misleading to quote his "one in four" estimation.
Why? The FBI had a one in two chance of reproducing that, and they weren't even trying to reproduce it (it wasn't a CT argument at the time of the FBI tests.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing.
So now you tell us it's not one in 60 but two in about 70 or 80 trials for Mills. That's more like 1 in 35 or 1 in 40. And if Mills had stopped after getting an empty shell the first time? Then it would be more like 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Either way, Mills getting TWO dented lips on shells in about 80 trials establishes it's not that unusual.

If Elvis was a gun nut, he would say: "Thank you. Thank you very much."


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.
Lutz' testimony is he worked the bolt very rapidly to achieve the dented lip. If Mills did these tests consecutively, there is muscle fatigue on Mills part to consider. Did Mills cycle the bolt with the same amount of force for 70 or 80 consecutive trials? You have no clue. Your attempt to assign a number here is bogus.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case, but who ever said guns don't act weird?
Of course you know nothing about guns, so you don't know how the ejector mechanism could tell the difference between an empty shell being ejected after firing, and an empty shell being ejected after being reloaded into the chamber empty.

Hint: There is no difference. The ejector mechanism can't tell the difference. All it has is an empty shell in the chamber at that point. Working the bolt ejects the shell, and sometimes dents the lip -- according to your source, Mills; according to Lutz and Champagne, my sources; and it even happened to the FBI in 1964 when they fired the rifle in tests for the Warren Commission. Adding all that up, we have about a 5% chance of obtaining a dented lip*, even if we grant Mills was exempt from normal muscle fatigue.

So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip.

Hank
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* Including Mills totals, that's 2 in about 70 (or 80) + 1 in 4 + 1 in 2, or a total of 4 in 74 (or 84). 4/74 is 5.4%. 4/84 is 4.8%. Something that happens 1 in about 20 times is not all that remarkable.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:27 AM   #1847
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Gosh, if guns act weird, what is the significance of a dented shell? One could just say it dented a spent shell on ejection, and put it down to guns being weird.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:35 AM   #1848
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
From Reclaiming Parkland:

Quote:
The Warren Commission labeled one of the shells reportedly found on the sixth floor, CE 543. The problem is that it is a dented shell. As ballistics authority and expert marksman Howard Donahue has said, this dented shell could not have been used to fire a bullet that day. The weapon would not have fired properly. As Josiah Thompson notes, it also had three identifying marks revealing it had been loaded and extracted from a weapon at least three times before. These were not found on the other shells. As Thompson further notes, “Of all the various marks discovered on this case, only one set links it to Oswald’s rifle, and this set was identified as having come from the magazine follower. Yet the magazine follower marks only the last cartridge in the clip. . . .” The last cartridge in the clip was the live round, not this one. Further, the clip contained no fingerprints, and neither did any of the cases.

One of the things Thompson did was to test whether CE 543 could have been dented when it was discharged. It could not. Bugliosi solves this problem the same way Gerald Posner did. He says it was dented during firing. He uses Monty Lutz from the HSCA as his authority. But when Mike Griffith asked Howard Donahue about this particular issue, Donahue replied that, “there were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA . . . I have never seen a case dented like this.”

Griffith also communicated with British researcher Chris Mills on this evidentiary point. Mills, who experimented with a Mannlicher Carcano rifle on this issue, said that the only way he achieved this denting effect was by using empty shells, and he had to repeat the experiment sixty times to get the same effect. Mills concluded this could only occur with an empty case that had been previously fired, and then only occasionally.

Author Michael Kurtz noted that the shell “lacks the characteristic indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald’s rifle.” He then adds that forensic pathologist Forrest Chapman concludes that CE 543 was probably “dry loaded.” Because the dent was too big to support a bullet, it was not fired from the Carcano. Chapman also noted that “CE 543 had a deeper and more concave indentation on its base . . . where the firing pin strikes the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics.” And Kurtz adds that when the FBI fired an empty shell for comparison purposes, it also contained the dent in the lip and the deep firing pin impression. Kurtz also concluded that CE 543 could not have been fired from the Carcano that day.
Gee, aren't you embarrassed to have quoted DiEugenio's compilation of nonsense from various conspiracy theorists above?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:43 AM   #1849
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
but who ever said guns don't act weird?
It wasn't you because you haven't yet shown you know what a "gun" is.

What else has your CT website told you that you'll need to be corrected on?
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:58 AM   #1850
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MJ, since you have an issue with understanding heresay, I'll cite a definition for you

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay

Quote:
1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

2. Law Evidence that is not within the personal knowledge of a witness, such as testimony regarding statements made by someone other than the witness, and that therefore may be inadmissible to establish the truth of a particular contention because the accuracy of the evidence cannot be verified through cross-examination.
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Old 13th October 2017, 10:53 AM   #1851
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Did Oswald suffer any "complications" with his rifle when he was making his previous murder attempt? Or did they only manifest themselves in Deally Plaza?
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Old 13th October 2017, 11:28 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Hank - I forgot that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests. So I will not say that he is lying for now,
You're in no way qualified to say if he's lying or not.


Quote:
Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing. Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.
Again, I posted a link to high resolution photos of the casing in question, the dent is not as detrimental as the Mills and other CT loons make it out to be. My guess is that they've not seen the shell casing, or that they're so desperate to negate the Carcano that they're lying.

Once again your assertions, parroted for other CT nutjobs, does not match the evidence.

Quote:
I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case,
This one's easy. Mess around with the rifle ejection shells until you get the result you want, and then go with that result, and not the other 200 times it didn't happen because CT laws of evidence are much more interpretive than the real world laws.


Quote:
but who ever said guns don't act weird?
You have, too many times to count.
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Old 13th October 2017, 11:57 AM   #1853
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You're in no way qualified to say if he's lying or not.




Again, I posted a link to high resolution photos of the casing in question, the dent is not as detrimental as the Mills and other CT loons make it out to be. My guess is that they've not seen the shell casing, or that they're so desperate to negate the Carcano that they're lying.

Once again your assertions, parroted for other CT nutjobs, does not match the evidence.



This one's easy. Mess around with the rifle ejection shells until you get the result you want, and then go with that result, and not the other 200 times it didn't happen because CT laws of evidence are much more interpretive than the real world laws.




You have, too many times to count.
The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:53 PM   #1854
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.
Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that. So it had to be the ejector mechanism. He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:02 PM   #1855
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Quote:
So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip.
Where did you get that?
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:10 PM   #1856
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that. So it had to be the ejector mechanism. He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.
The Carcano has an extractor and an ejector. They have separate jobs and do not act on the case mouth.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:50 PM   #1857
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that.
No, the best you can say is Donahue couldn't reproduce it in his (HOW MANY?) trials. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So it had to be the ejector mechanism.
And since we know the ejector mechanism did this twice for Mills, once for the FBI, and once for the HSCA, we're done here. It's not as rare or as unlikely as you and your sources pretend.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.
Theories in this case are like nether region orifices. Everybody's got one.

The prevailing theory is the shell originally held one of the three bullets fired, and got the damaged lip when it was ejected from the chamber. Even your conspiracy theorist Mills admits he could reproduce it.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:58 PM   #1858
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Where did you get that?
Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:01 PM   #1859
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip.
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Where did you get that?
I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.

1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials
1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests
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2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined.
2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three.

That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination.

One damaged shell out of three.

Let me know where the math lost you.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:08 PM   #1860
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?
It would bother me enough for me to reconsider my position if every argument I advanced in favor of a conspiracy could be shot down when examining the true facts of the case.

And that's exactly what happened to me in the early 198s when I sat down with the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of evidence & the HSCA volumes and tried to resolve the differences between the Warren Report & HSCA's account of the assassination and the story I was getting from the conspiracy books.

I found out the conspiracy books contained a lot of hooey.

Jean: You have a similar story that you shared on Prodigy what seems like yesterday, don't you?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 13th October 2017, 02:13 PM   #1861
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?
It's a product of this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...s-mind/534231/

"Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts."
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:50 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's a product of this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...s-mind/534231/

"Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts."
This was IMO a good article until about 2/3'rds through when he attempts to equate political movements and the ramifications according to him.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:11 PM   #1863
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.
I't the "She turned me into a newt...I got better" level of CT arguments.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:21 PM   #1864
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that. So it had to be the ejector mechanism. He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.
Let's start with is scientific method.

A legitimate experiment would involve simulating firing from the height, and position Oswald was in on the 6th floor set up with identical cardboard boxes, and beam on a sawhorse to recreate the windowsill. Then you sit there and dry-fire and eject your casings 1,000 times (or more).

Throwing casings on the ground brings you no closer to understanding the problem than timing how long they float in a sink filled with water.

This is the casing in question:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305147

It is clear that the dent is not as dramatic as the CT bozos want you to believe.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:24 PM   #1865
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So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up.

Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:41 PM   #1866
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
It would bother me enough for me to reconsider my position if every argument I advanced in favor of a conspiracy could be shot down when examining the true facts of the case.

And that's exactly what happened to me in the early 198s when I sat down with the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of evidence & the HSCA volumes and tried to resolve the differences between the Warren Report & HSCA's account of the assassination and the story I was getting from the conspiracy books.

I found out the conspiracy books contained a lot of hooey.

Jean: You have a similar story that you shared on Prodigy what seems like yesterday, don't you?

Hank
Yes, I'd been persuaded by Rush to Judgment until I checked Mark Lane's footnotes and saw how he'd ripped quotes out of context to distort and mislead. It made me skeptical about everything I read. Prodigy, so long ago, and not much has changed, has it?
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Old 13th October 2017, 09:23 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by Jean Davison View Post
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up.

Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected.
Not directly applicable to the case at hand, but some self loading firearms (H & K delayed recoil blowback designs and similar) not only damage the casing during ejection, they throw it into the next zipcode.
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:14 AM   #1868
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Originally Posted by Jean Davison View Post
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up.

Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected.
Here's a link:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zimmerman...enu_000009.htm

Note that at no time does he say he threw them as hard as he could into the pavement.
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Old 14th October 2017, 08:24 AM   #1869
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[quote=Jean Davison;12033387]So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

...
QUOTE]

If you've lurked very long, that is precisely MJ's MO, not interested in facts or science just out of context remarks, observations that have no science behind them. In short anything that may "support" his/her CT beliefs is taken without question and anything is critically obfuscated with voodoo comments.
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Old 14th October 2017, 09:21 AM   #1870
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Originally Posted by Jean Davison View Post
Yes, I'd been persuaded by Rush to Judgment until I checked Mark Lane's footnotes and saw how he'd ripped quotes out of context to distort and mislead. It made me skeptical about everything I read. Prodigy, so long ago, and not much has changed, has it?
Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...75&postcount=1

On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious.

Hank
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Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 14th October 2017, 09:31 AM   #1871
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Originally Posted by Jean Davison View Post
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

...
If you've lurked very long, that is precisely MJ's MO, not interested in facts or science just out of context remarks, observations that have no science behind them. In short anything that may "support" his/her CT beliefs is taken without question and anything is critically obfuscated with voodoo comments.
"Anybody but Oswald" is the CT mantra. FBI memos that suggest something even remotely conspiratorial are accepted without question, and anything pointing to Oswald is questioned to the Nth degree.

John Armstrong is among the worst in this regard. The FBI interviewed roughly 25,000 people (I think it was) in tracking down leads. A good portion of that is bound to contain some poor recollections and hearsay about neighbors that goes nowhere.

Armstrong (who devised an entire theory built around the thesis that there were TWO Oswalds created by some intelligence agency since Oswald was a youth (complete with two different mothers) uses those poor recollections and hearsay as a goldmine, taking recollections of people who may be thinking of other people entirely as part of Oswald's false background and evidence he was doubled. http://harveyandlee.net/

It's just more nonsense.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 14th October 2017, 10:52 AM   #1872
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
"Anybody but Oswald" is the CT mantra. FBI memos that suggest something even remotely conspiratorial are accepted without question, and anything pointing to Oswald is questioned to the Nth degree.

John Armstrong is among the worst in this regard. The FBI interviewed roughly 25,000 people (I think it was) in tracking down leads. A good portion of that is bound to contain some poor recollections and hearsay about neighbors that goes nowhere.

Armstrong (who devised an entire theory built around the thesis that there were TWO Oswalds created by some intelligence agency since Oswald was a youth (complete with two different mothers) uses those poor recollections and hearsay as a goldmine, taking recollections of people who may be thinking of other people entirely as part of Oswald's false background and evidence he was doubled. http://harveyandlee.net/

It's just more nonsense.

Hank
Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth.

EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all

Last edited by bknight; 14th October 2017 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Added one more conspiracy
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:57 PM   #1873
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth.

EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all
I'm a reformed CTist, JFK opened the door to that world thanks to my dad, who just couldn't believe Oswald did it alone.

I read ALL of the JFK CT books: Lane, Lifton, Mars, and close to twenty others in my day. The last one was "Oswald Talked" in 1996. I come it this purely as an act of penance for all the BS I spread during my time as a CT-loon.

I went to Dallas in 1996 and visited the 6th Floor Museum. It was instantly obvious that I had bought into a lie. It was just a damned easy shot from the 6th floor, and everything I had read told me it was impossible. Then standing on the sidewalk below the Grassy Knoll I realized that a gunman would have been visible - even in the worst photos and films.

In 1999 I began research for a book I hoped to write about an Army division, and that lead me to the firing range. That same year I took a pre-police academy class, and did a few ride-alongs with local cops. Between listening to hundreds of stories about guys shooting all kinds of weapons, shooting an MP-5, HK 40 USP, M-16A2, and a Benelli at the range, and observing good cops up close I was forced to change my world view.

Law Enforcement does the best they can with what they have, which isn't nearly enough. This applies to city, county, state, and federal agencies. Americans have a false sense of police forensic capabilities thanks to TV shows where CSI solves the crime in an hour, and a poor education in general science thanks to our school systems. This makes for unrealistic expectations from the public, and their elected representatives about what law enforcement can produce in the way of definitive evidence.

There is rarely 100% certainty based on the physical evidence alone, that's why good investigations look into the suspect's activities prior to the crime looking for motivation, and then look at what the suspect did after the crime to look for strange behavior.

So when you look at Oswald what do you see?

A guy with no money buying a cheap Italian Carcano rifle at a time when his marriage is falling apart. Shortly afterword someone fires a 6.5x52mm Carcano round through the window of General Walker's house, missing the target because he'd stooped to pick up a pen. Later, JFK is murdered by a gunman shooting from the 6th floor of the TSBD by a 6.5x52mm rifle. Oswald works on the 6th floor, and had bought something long wrapped in paper with him to work that morning.

Police search the 6th floor and find Oswald's rifle and spent shells. In the mean time, Oswald had left the building, hopped a bus, then took a taxi to his rooming house where he put on his jacket, and took his pistol. A short distance away DPD Officer JD Tippet is shot, the bullets match Oswald's gun - which he not only has on him at the time of his arrest but tries to shoot another cop in the process.

Here's the KISS part:

Oswald's rifle killed Kennedy, and wounded Connally.
Oswald fled the scene.
Oswald's handgun was used to kill Tippet, and Oswald then used the same gun to attempt to kill another DPD officer.

Oswald is guilty of two murders on 11.22.63.
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Old 14th October 2017, 01:09 PM   #1874
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...75&postcount=1

On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious.

Hank
Although my father believed that mafiosi were responsible for the assassination, he was no amateur. When the "magic bullet" jive started going around he knew instantly that the problem was the improper alignment of JFK and Connally in the vehicle, not a magic projectile.

He also stated upon seeing the first photos of LHO- "That ******* won't last a week." I thought my Dad was a pretty savvy guy before he said that. When Ruby shot and killed LHO I was convinced he must have known just about everything.
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Old 16th October 2017, 06:02 AM   #1875
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.

1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials
1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests
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2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined.
2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three.

That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination.

One damaged shell out of three.

Let me know where the math lost you.

Hank
Where did you get the part about a 2 in 6 chance from the FBI? If that is a fact, then it appears that by some mechanism you are more likely to get a dented shell casing if its one of the first rounds you eject and/or fire. All three experiments including Chris Millis found a hull, empty or not, with a dented lip on the first few tries.

BTW There is another non-conspiratorial interpretation of CE543 that might account for other anomalies. It could be used as a chamber plug. Howard Donahue used the chamber plug idea to push a single-assassin theory. But if you download that 2016 edition of Reclaiming Parkland, you will find a longer interesting discussion about each of the three shell casings.

Last edited by MicahJava; 16th October 2017 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 16th October 2017, 06:09 AM   #1876
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...75&postcount=1

On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious.

Hank
Rush To Judgement contains more than enough time-tested substantial evidence for conspiracy. Entire panels of government-hired
"experts" have created entire sets of volumes worse than Rush To Judgement.
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Old 16th October 2017, 06:15 AM   #1877
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.

1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials
1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests
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2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined.
2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three.

That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination.

One damaged shell out of three.

Let me know where the math lost you.

Hank
Where did you get the part about a 2 in 6 chance from the FBI? If that is a fact, then it appears that by some mechanism you are more likely to get a dented shell casing if its one of the first rounds you eject and/or fire. All three experiments including Chris Millis found a hull, empty or not, with a dented lip on the first few tries.

BTW There is another non-conspiratorial interpretation of CE543 that might account for other anomalies. It could be used as a chamber plug. Howard Donahue used the chamber plug idea to push a single-assassin theory. But if you download that 2016 edition of Reclaiming Parkland, you will find a longer interesting discussion about each of the three shell casings.
Good grief.

1+1=2
2+4=6

I no longer believe you are in any way to be taken seriously.
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Old 16th October 2017, 06:15 AM   #1878
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth.

EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all
Bknight, I noticed you mentioned Okla. City Bombing. I believe that there was a wider right-wing conspiracy that was covered up by the FBI because they knew they couldn't find everybody. Especially in this political climate, I think it's about time people started talking about the fact that OKC was done by a handful of right-wing extremists, and not just evil Timothy McVeigh and poor Terry Nichols. Even the mainstream media constantly covered evidence for conspiracy in the OKC case. You know it's bad when the media doesn't buy it. Publications like the NY Times, The Guardian, Associated Press, Denver Post would have stories raising concerns over possible right-wing extremists suspects of OKC.

Here is my favorate smoking gun of OKC: Richard Wayne Snell.

http://okbomb.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Wayne_Snell

This article is under construction by me, but it's an accurate summary.

I do not wish to continue a discussion about OKC here because this is not the right thread.
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Old 16th October 2017, 06:16 AM   #1879
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Good grief.

1+1=2
2+4=6

I no longer believe you are in any way to be taken seriously.
I mean I want a link to the exact source.
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Old 16th October 2017, 06:18 AM   #1880
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?
Why do you waste your time here?
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