ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brendan Dassey , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach

Reply
Old 5th August 2018, 08:45 PM   #81
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,033
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It is hard to see how the cut on the thumb overrides the simplest question in the case. Did the two independent witnesses see the car leaving the property or are they both making it up?
That is the bus driver and the gas guy.
If the car left the property the prosecution case is terminated.
Did Zellner fabricate her cell phone pings a long distance away? That does not make sense when her record is considered, which has allowed her to choose only cases where she has no personal doubt of factual innocence.
I can see that the legal process can ignore all this material, but the reasonable man may not.
Oh, nothing including that over-rides anything else, my goodness what a complicated case. It was a red flag for me though.

Any one of a number of suspects could have driven her car off and then doubled-back through the quarry to its final resting place at the salvage yard.

If you own a salvage yard with heavy equipment, you can stash a car so that nobody can find it. That's always been a problem for me with accusing Avery, who could bury it, crush it, part it out, or reduce it down.

I worked in a junkyard. With a car crusher, fork lifts, metal shredder, incinerator, train depot, booms, the works. You hand me a torch and I can cut a car down in less than an hour if I have a guy working on getting the engine out at the same time. Otherwise, two hours.

The Rav4 was "hidden" in plain sight with really lame "camouflage" like laying sticks and boards on it. That is someone who doesn't have a key to a forklift or who knows how to use a torch. This is the kind of thing that takes on new light when you have a suspect like the boyfriend, complete with police acting on their own to frame Avery.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 09:06 PM   #82
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,033
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw 'Making a Murderer' and I felt desperately sorry for Dassey and in particular, his mother. However, it was clear to me that his confession was sincere. His cousin testified in court that for two weeks after the crime, Dassey was beside himself with grief symptoms (crying and severely depressed). In the witness box, she said she wanted to retract this claim. However, from her body language and intense emotion, it was clear she was only doing that to save him.
That's proof how two different jurors are going to have completely different takes in a trial. Because I saw what you saw, and what I saw was Dassey being upset about losing a girlfriend - which you didn't even mention. Retraction of any testimony these police obtained - well what a big surprise. [/s]

You used a word that wasn't in the transcripts I read: "severely". That is another way of just shading things a bit more to your liking. We can't do that as jurors: spice up testimony more flavorable to one side.

I saw Dassey tell his mother that he used the same strategy he does with his teachers: he guesses at what they want. Then he figured he could go home and watch wrestling on television. That's how completely unaware Dassey was that the rest of his life was in dire jeapordy if he could guess at the "right" answers with the cops. It's why mentally handicapped minors should not be subject to this kind of leading interrogation.

As a juror, your decision shouldn't depend on this. This was your go-to "evidence"? Reversed testimony? There should be no doubt. The motive, means, opportunity, and key physical evidence all pointing in one direction.

Ultimately it is not judges, but we as people who decide the standards of law we want to live under. The judges face election, or eventually retire and new ones are appointed by elected officials with different values. After we become aware any retard can be convinced to confess to murder in an afternoon at school. I do not agree to that.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 04:51 PM   #83
JTF
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,070
Cry Me A River

The advocates for Avery and Dassey are an interesting lot, but their ability to separate inference from fact is slim and Slim left town. Any investigator worth a salt would conclude that Avery isn't simply guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he is guilty beyond ALL doubt.

Victim's bones mixed with debris in a fire pit on your property; additional bones in a barrel across the road; victim's personal items burned inside a barrel on your property; victim's DNA found on a bullet matching your rifle; the victim's car found on your property; and inculpatory DNA evidence located inside and outside (e.g., hood latch) the victim's vehicle. Need I go on?

In regards to the perp whose IQ seems to drop a point with each passing year, advocates conveniently ignore Dassey presenting several inculpatory details of this horrific crime WITHOUT the benefit of leading questions by investigators. At minimum, Dassey assisted his uncle in placing the victim's body in the back of her vehicle, dumping the victim's body in the fire pit, covering her body with debris, and cleaning the garage floor with bleach.

The evidence verifying this chain of events is beyond dispute. Direct bleeding stains found in the back of the vehicle match the victim's DNA profile. Dassey's mother processed with investigators that the front of her son's jeans were covered in bleach stains. Her recollections were substantiated when investigators gained access to the jeans and took several photographs.

Last edited by JTF; 13th August 2018 at 04:56 PM.
JTF is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 05:28 PM   #84
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Originally Posted by JTF View Post
The advocates for Avery and Dassey are an interesting lot, but their ability to separate inference from fact is slim and Slim left town. Any investigator worth a salt would conclude that Avery isn't simply guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he is guilty beyond ALL doubt.

Victim's bones mixed with debris in a fire pit on your property; additional bones in a barrel across the road; victim's personal items burned inside a barrel on your property; victim's DNA found on a bullet matching your rifle; the victim's car found on your property; and inculpatory DNA evidence located inside and outside (e.g., hood latch) the victim's vehicle. Need I go on?

In regards to the perp whose IQ seems to drop a point with each passing year, advocates conveniently ignore Dassey presenting several inculpatory details of this horrific crime WITHOUT the benefit of leading questions by investigators. At minimum, Dassey assisted his uncle in placing the victim's body in the back of her vehicle, dumping the victim's body in the fire pit, covering her body with debris, and cleaning the garage floor with bleach.

The evidence verifying this chain of events is beyond dispute. Direct bleeding stains found in the back of the vehicle match the victim's DNA profile. Dassey's mother processed with investigators that the front of her son's jeans were covered in bleach stains. Her recollections were substantiated when investigators gained access to the jeans and took several photographs.
Evidence discovered on later searches is a hallmark of false prosecutions. The evidence you should explain is the car leaving the property as described by the propane gas delivery witness and the bus driver, and how the events followed. You don't appear to have studied the case from any point of view but the prosecution.

4 of 8 judges since the series decided Dassey had nothing to do with the crime, and of the other 4, one was a prosecutor from the county at the original trials, and 3 decided on the narrow grounds that the confession was lawfully obtained, he should stay in jail. If you redact the words of the interrogators in the confession, Dassey hardly uttered an original word. The confession was led from start to finish.

Last edited by Samson; 13th August 2018 at 06:14 PM.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 06:35 PM   #85
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
Moore to the Story: Fact-feeding and Dassey confession

Here is a link to retired FBI agent Steve Moore being interviewed about Mr. Dassey's confession. Elsewhere Mr. Moore wrote, "Dassey obviously had no idea at all of the facts of Halbach’s murder." Here is a link to Mr. Moore's blog, where he discusses aspects of the confession. One of Mr. Moore's duties with the FBI was interrogation.

With respect to 250 DNA-based exonerations, Professor Brandon Garrett said, "Of those people, 40 had falsely confessed, typically in detail, where their statements were contaminated by details from the crime. Since then, many more false confessions have occurred, and again, almost without exception, they were contaminated."

EDT
A story at WaPo said in part, "The appellate judges pointed to signs of fact-feeding..."
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 13th August 2018 at 08:21 PM. Reason: changed title to something more descriptive
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 07:05 PM   #86
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
From the defense: more on fact-feeding

Richard Leo's affidavit stated, "Dr. White’s report contains many more examples of the detectives’ use of suggestion, leading questions, and pressure on Brendan to provide the answers they wanted in their post-admission interrogations."
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 13th August 2018 at 08:22 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th August 2018, 09:09 AM   #87
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
bullet somewhat flattened

IIRC some questions were raised about the DNA on the bullet in the first thread--questions to the effect that the DNA profile might well have shown degradation. Here is Jerry Buting's take on the bullet from the perspective of tool-mark evidence:
"It turns out that this particular .22 that was found — there was more than one 22 found, by the way; there were also same make, same model, .22 rifle found in the Bobby Dassey house — and there was testimony that that particular rifle was the most popular, the most sold rifle in the world. Millions and millions and millions of the same make and model. I forget right now what it was — Smith & Wesson, or whatever the brand was. And, what they determined with pretty clear precision, I believe, was that a bunch of shell casings that were found in the garage had been fired from that gun, because the shell casing when the hammer strikes the back of the shell it leaves a little indentation and, you know, there’s some wiggle room on that too — you know, scientists nowadays are challenging a lot of these toolmark evidence opinions that experts are presenting. But, that really didn’t prove much, because there was also shell casings all over that junkyard, including outside the garage, and you know, these people shot rabbits, they sighted their rifles for deer hunting, shot at the cars. You know, that’s just there were dozens, if not hundreds of shells all over the place.
"What would’ve been more probative was that if there was an actual bullet that they could prove beyond any reasonable doubt had come from that gun and that gun and no other gun in the world, and unfortunately the science isn’t that good. This single bullet that was recovered from the garage had her apparent DNA on it was a flattened bullet, it was not a pristine bullet where you could see the, clear tool marks. And so, you know, Mr. Kratz wants to argue that there was proof that that bullet came from the .22 rifle that was found in Mr. Avery’s trailer, but that’s not really the case. It was similar, but they could not completely exclude any other gun."

Here is another quote from the 2009 NAS report that bears on the level of reliability of tool-mark evidence: "But even with more training and experience using newer techniques, the decision of the toolmark examiner remains a subjective decision based on unarticulated standards and no statistical foundation for estimation of error rates."
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2018, 02:39 PM   #88
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
evidence that appears after a location has already been searched

"On the bullet evidence, Calumet County sheriff's Deputy Daniel Kucharski testified that he found no bullet fragments when he and three Manitowoc County deputies searched Avery's garage on Nov. 6, 2005." Link.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2018, 06:10 AM   #89
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
2016 PCAST report on the state of bullet analysis

"We identified one notable advance since 2009: the completion of the first appropriately designed black-box study of firearms. The work was commissioned and funded by the Defense Department’s Forensic Science Center and was conducted by an independent testing lab (the Ames Laboratory, a Department of Energy national laboratory affiliated with Iowa State University). The false-positive rate was estimated at 1 in 66, with a confidence bound indicating that the rate could be as high as 1 in 46. While the study is available as a report to the Federal government, it has not been published in a scientific journal.

"The scientific criteria for foundational validity require that there be more than one such study, to demonstrate reproducibility, and that studies should ideally be published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. Accordingly, the current evidence still falls short of the scientific criteria for foundational validity."

This quote is from the 2016 PCAST report. I hope that this puts the issue of tool-mark analysis into perspective.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2018, 02:36 PM   #90
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
an extra dollop of skepticism

Originally Posted by JTF View Post
SNIP
[1]Victim's bones mixed with debris in a fire pit on your property; additional bones in a barrel across the road; [2]victim's personal items burned inside a barrel on your property; [3]victim's DNA found on a bullet matching your rifle; [4]the victim's car found on your property; [5]and inculpatory DNA evidence located inside and outside (e.g., hood latch) the victim's vehicle. Need I go on?

In regards to the perp whose IQ seems to drop a point with each passing year, advocates conveniently ignore Dassey presenting several inculpatory details of this horrific crime WITHOUT the benefit of leading questions by investigators[6]. At minimum, Dassey assisted his uncle in placing the victim's body in the back of her vehicle, dumping the victim's body in the fire pit, covering her body with debris, and cleaning the garage floor with bleach.

The evidence verifying this chain of events is beyond dispute. Direct bleeding stains found in the back of the vehicle match the victim's DNA profile. Dassey's mother processed with investigators that the front of her son's jeans were covered in bleach stains[7]. Her recollections were substantiated when investigators gained access to the jeans and took several photographs.
numbering mine.

JTF,

What you have presented is (optimistically) a list of talking points, not an invitation to have a substantive debate. There is nothing in your post about the tag team of Mr. Lenk and Mr. Colborn and their...unusual...ability to find evidence in previously searched areas, for example or the fact that they never should have been part of the investigation in the first place.

I suggest that you start with one or two of these and focus those, perhaps [3] and [6], because those have been the main topics in the last few pages. Let me start with Mr. Dassey. The evidence of his being fed information is incontrovertible (see links above, among other sources of information). Is it within the realm of possibility that he provided additional information that was not contaminated? Yes, but you have not identified it. Moreover, any information that Mr. Dassey supposedly provided on his own should be judged through the prism that his interrogators are at best incompetent. In other words, even if you provided a specific claim, it deserves an extra dollop of skepticism owing to the actions of the interrogators.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2018, 05:07 PM   #91
JTF
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,070
A Big Ball Of Nothing

CHRIS: You certainly have the right to define "evidence" (e.g., talking points) in any way you see fit, but please don't include me in a group thought process that embraces hyperbole and innuendo. Claims are not evidence. Beliefs are not knowledge. Opinion is not fact. Avery's advocates are full of sound and fury, but they have provided no concrete proof of a law enforcement conspiracy nor have they produced a single evidentiary item that has been definitively sourced to a specific individual not named Steven Avery.

I'm surprised that the advocates on this thread haven't created a larger thread advocating for the innocence of Scott Peterson. Why a larger thread? Well, there is FAR less inculpatory evidence in the Peterson Case and there is nothing in Peterson's history that can match Avery's penchant for violence. Avery's advocates either minimize or flat-out ignore the fact that he burned the family cat to death, that two women have accused Avery of sexual assault, and that his former girlfriend accused him of physical assault. It's also important to note that during a taped phone conversation with his mother, Dassey admitted that his uncle molested him.

In a recent documentary, a juror in the Peterson trial stated the main piece of evidence that led to Peterson's conviction was the fact that Peterson was fishing in an area where his wife and son's body were later found. The only pieces of physical evidence that tied Peterson to that crime scene were 2 hairs found in a pair of needle noose pliers that matched his wife's mito DNA sequence. Compare that to the evidentiary items I listed in my prior post and one has to wonder why the Avery Case is a controversial case whereas the Peterson Case is perceived as open and shut. Heck, even the defense strategies mirror one another and neither defense team came close to walking the evidentiary walk. Fortunately, neither jury bought the absurd theory that unidentified individuals must have kidnapped and murdered Laci/Teresa, and disposed of their bodies in order to frame Peterson/Avery.

Last edited by JTF; 21st August 2018 at 05:18 PM.
JTF is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2018, 07:24 PM   #92
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
ignoring the negative control

Originally Posted by JTF View Post
Fortunately, neither jury bought the absurd theory that unidentified individuals must have kidnapped and murdered Laci/Teresa, and disposed of their bodies in order to frame Peterson/Avery.
Your post is unserious. I have never seen an Avery supporter who believed what you are claiming above. Inventing a straw man argument does not move the discussion forward. Nor does the rest of your post in any way, shape, or form respond to the points in mine. Your list of talking points might be good evidence if it were not for the many problems in when and how it was collected. Here is one more:

If you go back to the first Avery thread, you will find a discussion about the contamination of the negative controls with respect to the extraction of the bullet. The right thing to do when a negative control shows DNA is to start over. For example, you can use Google to find the following quote: "The negative control tests for contamination of samples during the setup of the amplification reactions. If the negative control exhibits unexplainable peaks above 100 RFUs threshold that are not eliminated after re-injection, then all samples associated with the negative control are considered inconclusive for analysis and must be re-amplified."

If one is going to ignore the results, why even do the control experiment? That they lab supervisor OK'd a dubious result is one more evidence of bias in the way that the investigation was conducted, if any such evidence were needed.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 21st August 2018 at 08:33 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2018, 01:55 PM   #93
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
The alibi and the Sony Play Station

Former FBI agent and experienced interrogator Steve Moore wrote, "Here's the bottom line on all the alibi's [for Dassey]: You'd have to ignore a substantial group of people, at least one, possibly two of which have no reason to lie. But more importantly, the alibis prove that what Dassey told Wiegert and Fassbender was simply impossible."

Mr. Moore goes on to discuss how one might possibly use the Sony Play Station 2 better to understand Mr. Dassey's actions on the day in question. I wish that the investigators had followed this avenue.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 22nd August 2018 at 02:23 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2018, 02:33 PM   #94
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
Originally Posted by JTF View Post
SNIP Claims are not evidence. Beliefs are not knowledge. Opinion is not fact. Avery's advocates are full of sound and fury, but they have provided no concrete proof of a law enforcement conspiracy nor have they produced a single evidentiary item that has been definitively sourced to a specific individual not named Steven Avery.
(highlighting mine)

JTF,

The highlighted section is one of our few points of agreement. You claimed that Mr. Dassey provided uncontaminated "details" in his confession, but you never identified what those details were. Over several comments my response was to provide evidence of contamination in this instance, to show that contamination of a confession is a commonly encountered phenomenon, and to indicate that some alibi evidence exists for Mr. Dassey. The only additional comment you made was to bring the the possibility that Mr. Dassey was abused by his uncle, which is irrelevant to to the question under consideration. Your claim isn't evidence; it isn't even a very convincing talking point.

Can you provide examples of what you would accept as strong or weak evidence of a police conspiracy and what evidence you would not take at all? Can you provide explanations for your choices?
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 22nd August 2018 at 03:46 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2018, 05:23 PM   #95
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
JTF is sitting at the big boys table now.
Three female appeal court judges declare what all Americans know already, Brendan Dassey had nothing to do with this crime, and those that wrote a disgusting and false judgement to destroy him will face the fury of the people when series 2 arrives on Netflix.
Steven Avery was framed, and also had nothing to do with Teresa's murder, proof is a little more elusive.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:31 AM   #96
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
Steven Moore on the ballistics

Here is Steve Moore's discussion of the bullets and rifle, which I found helpful. He raises some questions that would not have occurred to me.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 11:03 AM   #97
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
One of the problems for the prosecution should be explaining why Avery would use a clever phone tactic to lure Teresa to his home, and then expect to kill her and burn her body by his back door without being a suspect. This is the classic tale of clever and artful criminal mixed with banal stupidity. We see it each time, Knox, Lundy, and so on.
I bet JTF can explain this, but I can't.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 11:09 AM   #98
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
From my memory bank, Kathleen Zellner says something like
"if you ask for my help you better be innocent, because if you are not I will find out."
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:57 PM   #99
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
DNA degradation and firearms

In comment #3461 in the first continuation thread, I had written, "The DNA in this instance deserves scrutiny for another reason IMO. I looked into this a while ago, and I recall that DNA from bullets is sometimes degraded, presumably from the heat. It would make sense to examine this DNA for signs of degradation."
In comment #3462 McHrozni had replied, "That's almost easier done than said (yes, you red that right). Degraded DNA profile will show a significant drop in signal from longer fragments. All samples will show the drop, but in undegraded samples the drop could be as low as 10%, whereas degraded samples can show drops in excess of 50%. It is not unusual for a sample to only yield short makers and longer markers are undetectable.

"I'd like to see electropherograms of the blood stains in Rav4. If they don't show significant degradation the blood was drawn recently and didn't come from a decades-old vacutainer."

If DNA is subjected to a process that produces random degradation, one can see a downward slope in the peak heights in the electropherogram, as one proceeds left to right (shorter DNA strands to longer ones). If the degradation is severe, then the longer pieces are too small to be observed, and one obtains a partial profile.

With respect to the bullet DNA, Ms. Culhane testified that two alleles dropped out, relative to Teresa Halbach's reference profile. I found a table of results for Item FL (described in this document as an apparent bullet fragment). In locus D16S539 there is a 12-repeat but no other (IIUC Halbach's reference profile has a 13-repeat). In locus TPOX there is an 11-repeat but no other (IIUC Halbach's reference profile should have 10-repeat). No peak heights were given, and I do not see an electropherogram. If Item IG is identical with her reference profile, then the bullet profile has two allelic dropouts, relative to her reference. In other words it is nearly complete.

This cuts both ways. On the one hand, the more complete a profile is, the more people who are excluded as contributors. On the other hand, the evidence as it stands does not suggest a highly degraded sample. The representative electropherograms I have viewed so far differ in where these two loci are found relative to other loci, meaning that I cannot be certain of the relative lengths of DNA fragments in this instance. With the peak heights and the positions of the loci, one could say more. However, whatever degradation there might be would have to be less than what it would take to render the vast majority of alleles invisible (26 of 28 were visible).

Diertjes P et al., Int J Legal Med (2011) 125:597–602 DOI 10.1007/s00414-010-0454-4
Diertjes and coauthors studied cartridges, bullets, and casings in the aggregate. They wrote, "The amount of biological cell material on the ammunition is typically low, and because the intense heat during firing is detrimental to DNA, one often obtains degraded DNA fragments." They also wrote, "In forensic case work on degraded DNA samples, it is often only possible to amplify the smaller loci because DNA fragments are typically in low quantity and/or highly degraded." In their Figure 1, it is clear than many profiles were signficantly incomplete. This raises some questions, but I will have to leave it to others to answer.
EDT
At page 163 at this link, Ms. Culhane notes that there were small peaks at the positions of the 13-repeat and 10-repeat in the sample from the bullet, but they were below the threshold.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 24th August 2018 at 02:24 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 05:27 PM   #100
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
In comment #3461 in the first continuation thread, I had written, "The DNA in this instance deserves scrutiny for another reason IMO. I looked into this a while ago, and I recall that DNA from bullets is sometimes degraded, presumably from the heat. It would make sense to examine this DNA for signs of degradation."
In comment #3462 McHrozni had replied, "That's almost easier done than said (yes, you red that right). Degraded DNA profile will show a significant drop in signal from longer fragments. All samples will show the drop, but in undegraded samples the drop could be as low as 10%, whereas degraded samples can show drops in excess of 50%. It is not unusual for a sample to only yield short makers and longer markers are undetectable.

"I'd like to see electropherograms of the blood stains in Rav4. If they don't show significant degradation the blood was drawn recently and didn't come from a decades-old vacutainer."

If DNA is subjected to a process that produces random degradation, one can see a downward slope in the peak heights in the electropherogram, as one proceeds left to right (shorter DNA strands to longer ones). If the degradation is severe, then the longer pieces are too small to be observed, and one obtains a partial profile.

With respect to the bullet DNA, Ms. Culhane testified that two alleles dropped out, relative to Teresa Halbach's reference profile. I found a table of results for Item FL (described in this document as an apparent bullet fragment). In locus D16S539 there is a 12-repeat but no other (IIUC Halbach's reference profile has a 13-repeat). In locus TPOX there is an 11-repeat but no other (IIUC Halbach's reference profile should have 10-repeat). No peak heights were given, and I do not see an electropherogram. If Item IG is identical with her reference profile, then the bullet profile has two allelic dropouts, relative to her reference. In other words it is nearly complete.

This cuts both ways. On the one hand, the more complete a profile is, the more people who are excluded as contributors. On the other hand, the evidence as it stands does not suggest a highly degraded sample. The representative electropherograms I have viewed so far differ in where these two loci are found relative to other loci, meaning that I cannot be certain of the relative lengths of DNA fragments in this instance. With the peak heights and the positions of the loci, one could say more. However, whatever degradation there might be would have to be less than what it would take to render the vast majority of alleles invisible (26 of 28 were visible).

Diertjes P et al., Int J Legal Med (2011) 125:597–602 DOI 10.1007/s00414-010-0454-4
Diertjes and coauthors studied cartridges, bullets, and casings in the aggregate. They wrote, "The amount of biological cell material on the ammunition is typically low, and because the intense heat during firing is detrimental to DNA, one often obtains degraded DNA fragments." They also wrote, "In forensic case work on degraded DNA samples, it is often only possible to amplify the smaller loci because DNA fragments are typically in low quantity and/or highly degraded." In their Figure 1, it is clear than many profiles were signficantly incomplete. This raises some questions, but I will have to leave it to others to answer.
EDT
At page 163 at this link, Ms. Culhane notes that there were small peaks at the positions of the 13-repeat and 10-repeat in the sample from the bullet, but they were below the threshold.
This fragment may have had Teresa's dna on it, but the fact remains it was found after Steven Avery was in custody.
The bra clasp in Kercher appears to have had Sollecito's dna on it, but the fact remains it was found after Raffaele Sollecito was in custody.
This is when the police tend to win, no one dares accuse them of planting, yet in each case this remains the most likely explanation. "Noble" cause corruption.
Arthur Thomas was exonerated with a commission of inquiry that is considered to have proved Bruce Hutton planted a cartridge case in the victims' garden.

Access to dna of Teresa Halbach would be easy for the Wisconsin police, but bad science of course is still in play.

Last edited by Samson; 24th August 2018 at 05:29 PM.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2018, 11:22 AM   #101
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
Lenk brought them food?

Ms. Culhane said that she [probably] contaminated the control by talking, as she was training someone. However, consider this portion of a Post-Crescent story: "Buting told reporters in the series that the defense was not allowed to have someone watch while the test was done because they were told additional people could contaminate the scene." The ABA standards on DNA evidence read in part: “If a motion objecting to consumptive testing is filed., the court should consider ordering procedures that would permit an independent evaluation of the analysis, including but not limited to the presence of an expert representing the moving party during evidence preparation and testing, and videotaping or photographing the preparation and testing.”

In Mr. Buting's book, he quotes (p. 243) some of his cross-examination of Sherry Culhane concerning the positive result from the negative control:
"Q. At no time, in this report, do you ever disclose, that in order to make that finding, you had to deviate from a protocol, did you?
A. No.
Q. Anyone reading this report would never know that, in order for you to make that call and say that that's Teresa Halbach's DNA, you had to do something you have never done in your career as a crime lab analyst, right?
A. Without discovery, no."

The bullet was found after multiple searches; Lenk was present on more than one occasion (link to a snippet of testimony). The reason that the lab gave for not allowing the defense to observe the testing was vitiated by the presence of the trainee(s). Furthermore, the lab was...not forthcoming...about a major deviation of its protocols.

Avery's detractors are a curious lot. They bid students of the case simultaneously to look at a mountain of evidence and yet not to ask how the mountain of evidence was constructed.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2018, 03:07 PM   #102
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
I just watched the CI on Hank Skinner, and it is not rocket science seeing how these guys get locked up. The body is nearby and they are dodgy customers, but looking closer, they had no motive or opportunity to do the crime, for different reasons, but the public buy it hook line and sinker. Reading the thread on IA I see a poster I thought was astute arguing Skinner was guilty beyond any doubt, and reciting the mountain of evidence. This is like posters here on Avery.

eta, neither had a history of assault IIUC.

Last edited by Samson; 4th September 2018 at 03:11 PM.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2018, 07:11 AM   #103
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
CD in dispute

"No where in the very specific orders of the Court of Appeals did the court allow for a reply brief by the state or a response by the defendant. Because the Court of Appeals was so detailed in its instructions, the court did not consider the subsequent briefs submitted by the parties after the defendant’s court ordered filing. This court followed the order of the Court of Appeals and only considered the initial brief of the defendant." Link.

Jerry Buting tweeted, "Yet another pathetic decision from a Wisconsin state trial court, denying Avery motion without a hearing. Judge claims she won’t read State’s brief or defense reply. 🙄 Ball is back in Wisconsin Court of appeals."
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2018, 01:48 PM   #104
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,033
I am not counting Zellner out. The wheels turn excruciatingly slow.

I see a CD of "slasher-sex" type stuff has been found in the Dassey home, raising the question of which Little Home on the Prarie Dassey was the wanna-be slasher sex star.

Bizarre.

Here is something that is meaningful to me, putting your own money where your mouth is:


Quote:
She has spent about $233,000 on experts in her drive to prove Avery innocent. Of that, $175,000 was her own money and the rest came from the Midwest Innocence Project, the Avery family and donations.
It is from Dec. 2017 but the numbers can't be that much different today.

https://www.newsweek.com/steven-aver...tor-key-750323

So she is personally funding 75% of the experts, and 100% of her own time and office staff. Plus she is the driving force in fundraising for almost all the other 25% in forensic science expenses.

She has been denigrated here as a profiteer off human mysery or some such framing, but this proves to me how much she believes in Avery's innocence and her ability to overturn the case. She has a lot of experience doing just that.

Last edited by AlaskaBushPilot; 21st September 2018 at 01:49 PM.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2018, 06:44 PM   #105
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Here we go with series 2 of Making a Murderer

https://tdn.com/entertainment/televi...49ca5ffb7.html

October 19

These judges must be made of pollonium.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2018, 10:06 PM   #106
JTF
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,070
Keep It Simple Stupid

SAMSON: My version of a 'big boys table" consists of people who rely on critical thought and undiluted fact. For the most part, the big boys table on this thread seems to consist of people who rely on hyperbole, half-truths, distortions, circular logic, and conspiracy narratives. The amount of inculpatory evidence presented at the Steven Avery trial is only matched by a handful (e.g., Lee Harvey Oswald, Jeffrey MacDonald, O.J. Simpson) of high profile murder cases.

In these 4 murder cases, all of the SOURCED evidentiary items were directly linked to these 4 individuals. None of the advocates for these 4 perps were able to produce a single evidentiary item that was directly sourced to an alternative suspect. No DNA, no hair, no fibers, no weapons, no fabric impressions, no prints, nothing, nada, zip. Compare that big ball of nothing to the items found in Avery's burn barrel, his fire pit, his DNA, MacDonald's pajama top, his bloody footprints, his DNA, Simpson's DNA, victim's blood, Oswald's rifle, his palm print on the rifle, bullet fragments matching the rifle, etc., etc.

Advocates for these 4 perps had their own pet suspects and conspiracy theories, but none of their dubious claims held water. They attempted to compensate for their inability to walk the walk by regurgitating unproven claims and ignoring concrete evidence of guilt. Making of a Murderer focused on the latter whereas sourced DNA, fibers, hairs, bone fragments, bullet fragments, bloody footprints, blood spatter, direct bleeding stains, fabric impressions, and weapons were a part of the evidentiary matrix in these horrific crimes.

When researching these 4 cases, it's important to adhere to the KISS principle. If one does that, the conclusions are crystal clear. Avery, Oswald, MacDonald, and Simpson are not merely guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they are guilty beyond ALL doubt.

Last edited by JTF; 25th September 2018 at 10:13 PM.
JTF is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2018, 01:29 AM   #107
JTF
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,070
Time To Walk the Walk

SAMSON: One can never predict the behavior of any human being, much less make heads or tails of how a psychopath comes to a decision. Avery's phone ruse is hardly clever and his method of disposing Teresa's body speaks to his concrete thought process. For example, this rapist/woman beater/pet killer must have known that he couldn't get away with pointing a loaded gun at a woman in public view, yet he did it anyway. Avery must have known that someone would see the fire in his yard, yet he initially denied creating such a fire. He had to backtrack when he discovered that his sister's husband witnessed the fire.

The history of high profile murder cases is replete with perps making head scratching decisions. Why would Lee Harvey Oswald decide to be the only employee at the TSBD to leave the scene? Oswald knew it would make him a prime suspect, yet he did it anyway. Rather than talking his way out of a potential arrest, he decides to murder a police officer in public view. These are decisions made by someone who was FAR more intelligent than Avery. Zellner is certainly adept at carnival barking, but the burden of proof is now squarely on the defense and meeting that burden will be a daunting task.

Last edited by JTF; 26th September 2018 at 01:39 AM.
JTF is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2018, 06:36 AM   #108
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
JTF:

Thank you for your responses, I will certainly consider, and reply.
We are on fact finding on this message board, that is paramount.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 09:33 AM   #109
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,204
Originally Posted by JTF View Post
When researching these 4 cases, it's important to adhere to the KISS principle. If one does that, the conclusions are crystal clear. Avery, Oswald, MacDonald, and Simpson are not merely guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they are guilty beyond ALL doubt.
It's interesting that JTF should mention the OJ case. There is a funny TV interview with OJ by the comedian Sacha Baron Cohen at this website:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...A&&FORM=VDRVRV

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 28th September 2018 at 09:36 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2018, 07:52 PM   #110
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
a match which is not a match

On p. 329 Jerry Buting wrote, "Studies have shown only 21-38 percent of the marks will match up on bullets fired from the very same gun, yet when an analyst like Newhouse compares a bullet and rifle he may declare it a "match" when only 21 percent of the markings on the bullet match the gun. In other words, almost 80 percent of the marks do not have to match."

Not only is this nothing like DNA; it is nothing like fingerprints. With DNA if even one allele does not match, the questioned sample is excluded.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2018, 08:57 PM   #111
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,033
Originally Posted by JTF View Post
One can never predict the behavior of any human being,
what? Regardless of guilt or innocence, this is the very purpose of developing modus operandi, and the entire science of criminal psychology!

So we reject this logically at the outset but fortunately it is particularly true in the case of psychopaths coming to decisions:

Quote:
much less make heads or tails of how a psychopath comes to a decision.
That's ridiculous. Psychopaths lack empathy, not the ability to reason. Drugs and alcohol - absolutely, that interferes in everyone's ability to reason, psychopathy or not. But not psychopathy per se.

What you cannot do is substitute normal people's empathetic nature for the psychopath's. He views people as objects to attain ends, not people whose feelings and rights are worth spittle. Their behaviour is very predictable, logical, and straightforward once you simply adopt their preferences.

Quote:
Avery's phone ruse is hardly clever and his method of disposing Teresa's body speaks to his concrete thought process. For example, this rapist/woman beater/pet killer must have known that he couldn't get away with pointing a loaded gun at a woman in public view, yet he did it anyway. Avery must have known that someone would see the fire in his yard, yet he initially denied creating such a fire. He had to backtrack when he discovered that his sister's husband witnessed the fire.
This case has so many terrible conflicts because of the County's bad faith and unprofessionalism after a history of already convicting an innocent man, this one.

I will definitely be around for Zellner and the Supreme Court on this one, and just because I agree with her obtaining the overturning of his conviction does not mean I think he is innocent.

That's really what it comes down to for me. This prosecution, Dassey my God what a travesty - and Steven Avery's, do not meet my standards of rendering justice. Blowing right by the ex-boyfriend at the outset and letting him run so much of the show... talk about backwards. That is the first person you are supposed to be looking at: Searching HIS apartment. HIS car. Stopping HIM from erasing phone messages. Getting HIM away from tainting the crime scene or investigation in any way. Etc.

Last edited by AlaskaBushPilot; 11th October 2018 at 09:00 PM.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2018, 08:59 AM   #112
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,204
I don't know a thing about the Avery case but there is some publicity blurb on the internet about some new documentary about the Avery case today:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...cid=spartanntp

Quote:
Going into more detail about the footage captured for Part 2, she said: "There's definitely a different approach from the advocates, because they're at the post-conviction stage. And by definition, that means they're the ones actively pursuing a goal. They're the ones trying to get the case back in court and trying to get the judges to look at the case again."

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 21st October 2018 at 09:01 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2018, 11:07 AM   #113
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't know a thing about the Avery case but there is some publicity blurb on the internet about some new documentary about the Avery case today:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...cid=spartanntp
This is an epic miscarriage of justice. Two netflix series, several books, trial transcripts and common sense demonstrate this.
Avery and Dassey had nothing to do with this crime.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2018, 11:50 PM   #114
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
In episode 7 Zellner proves the bullet fragment on the garage floor did not Kill Teresa Halbach.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2018, 02:37 AM   #115
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
The series unveils unmitigated evil.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2018, 02:46 AM   #116
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Brad Schimel is a replication of Antonin Scalia.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2018, 03:00 AM   #117
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Here is a detail

En Banque hearings rarely granted.
42 of 12336.

Dassey went to En Banque, where 3 female dissenting judges railed against the 4,
they were 3 male and one female who originated from Dassey's county.

Without killing Brendan, the system has done its utmost to destroy and demoralise.
And I am remote with no skin in this game.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2018, 04:45 PM   #118
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,033
Golly, I had some time to watch that. Zellner demonstrated Theresa was killed at the back of her Rav 4, the blood spatter reproductions she did were amazing.

That was one of many places where the original defense team blew it: virtually no experts to dismantle fairy tales the prosecution was weaving.

Zellner is going with full-on evidence planting across the board. Back when we discussed the trial transcripts I was bothered by the burn site at the quarry, and Zellner dug into that in ways I didn't expect: Both the cadaver and scent dogs went straight to the quarry, that's how it was found.

The part about using the Rav4 to push the skeleton of a car out of the way - that's how her Rav4 had been damaged, and supports the planting theory.

There was a lot to chew on but Zellner is proving why she has gained the release of 17 convicted murderers or whatever it is.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2018, 05:06 PM   #119
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,227
bullet that was found

Steve Moore's blog (see upthread) explained why the bullet that they found was not likely to have passed through her head, although it could have gone through another part of her body. Among other things he was trained as a sniper; therefore, his opinion carries more weight than most.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2018, 01:52 AM   #120
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,007
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Steve Moore's blog (see upthread) explained why the bullet that they found was not likely to have passed through her head, although it could have gone through another part of her body. Among other things he was trained as a sniper; therefore, his opinion carries more weight than most.
Interesting, Steve Moore was objective on the EDTA, good on him.
An extraordinary notion they recovered blood from Avery's sink to plant.

Sherlock Holmes would say no matter how unlikely......
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:06 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.