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Tags Coronavirus , vaccine , vaccines

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Old 26th February 2021, 03:33 AM   #921
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
My sense is that jab is slang but everyone is saying it.
I'd say common usage, rather than slang. (Unless you're in Scotland, where they say 'jag' rather than 'jab'.)
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:45 AM   #922
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I'd say common usage, rather than slang. (Unless you're in Scotland, where they say 'jag' rather than 'jab'.)
Yes I saw jag.
I will say injection if there is a need to say anything.
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:40 AM   #923
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56208674

"Vaccinating people in order of age is the fastest way to cut Covid-19 deaths in the next phase of the roll-out, say experts advising the UK government.
People in their 40s will be next in line, followed by those aged 30-39.
Priority based on jobs would be "more complex" and could slow down the programme, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation said."

"It says the following groups should be prioritised, once all at-risk groups in phase one have been offered at least one dose of the vaccine:
all those aged 40-49 years
all those aged 30-39 years
all those aged 18-29 years

"And it strongly advises some particular groups to take up a vaccine as soon as it is offered. They are:
men
people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities
people with a BMI over 30
people living in poorer neighbourhoods"

The police and teachers are going to go mental!
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Old 26th February 2021, 05:11 AM   #924
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Let the bun fight begin

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...latest-updates

"The national chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales has called the decision not to prioritise officers in the next phase of the coronavirus vaccination programme a “deep and damaging betrayal” which “will not be forgotten”.

"Geoff Barton, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said his members were “disappointed” by the news"
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Old 26th February 2021, 07:05 AM   #925
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
My sister has just tipped me off that over-60s can now book a vaccination, at least in England.

The closest it's offering me is in Slough. I'll maybe try again later, I know of three centres closer than that, including one I can walk to, but those might all be run by the local GP practices rather than the central NHS.

Have you really not been contacted to get a vaccination? You're over 60? Something has surely gone amiss.

I can see why they'd set up a system where patients can come forward on their own intiative, because there are always glitchy situations such as someone not being registered with a GP, but if you're in a normal settled lifestyle with your own GP you really should have been contacted.
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Old 26th February 2021, 07:09 AM   #926
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Let the bun fight begin

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...latest-updates

"The national chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales has called the decision not to prioritise officers in the next phase of the coronavirus vaccination programme a “deep and damaging betrayal” which “will not be forgotten”.

"Geoff Barton, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said his members were “disappointed” by the news"

The argument I heard on the radio was pretty compelling. It said that to prioritise by occupation, even if it could be done seamlessly, would only result in these people jumping the queue by about a week, and in practice the complicated re-prioritising necessary would actually slow down the whole exercise.

This is just selfishness on the part of groups who want to be seen as special. On the upside, the public spectacle of people fighting to get the vaccine and getting all huffy when they aren't bumped up the list may have an effect on people who are vaccine hesitant but not fullblown antivax nutcases.
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Old 26th February 2021, 07:31 AM   #927
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I'm surprised that the police hadn't already been done, especially those on the frontline policing lockdown violators, etc. On the other hand, once you start giving certain groups priority, where do you stop? There's also the practical side of keeping track; an age-based system is pretty straightforward, and can be run from the NHS database. Profession-based is more difficult to track.
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Old 26th February 2021, 07:36 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Have you really not been contacted to get a vaccination? You're over 60? Something has surely gone amiss.
They've only just started doing over-60s, as far as I know. I'll probably get an invitation from the GP in the coming week, but thought I might as well get it booked. Where is live has a fairly old demographic, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's behind other areas in dealing with the first 6 groups.
Quote:

I can see why they'd set up a system where patients can come forward on their own intiative, because there are always glitchy situations such as someone not being registered with a GP, but if you're in a normal settled lifestyle with your own GP you really should have been contacted.
There's at least two systems in operation, in England at least. There's a GP based one, and the centralised NHS one with big centres. The centre I'm booked into is in the nearest large town (only 7 miles away), which I suspect has a younger population than where I live, so is probably further through the age groups.
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Old 26th February 2021, 08:22 AM   #929
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I had my first dose of the pfizer vaccine yesterday at my GP. They texted me a week ago to book an appointment, I'm T1 diabetic so it's possible they are still doing people with underlying conditions in my area.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:36 AM   #930
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The NHS website I booked through is (I didn't notice at the time) stating it's for over-64s without medical conditions. However, there's a lot of talk on the web saying it's now allowing over 60s to book, and I had no problem doing so. It does ask about various medical conditions, but I don't have any and it still gave me an appointment.

I think it's more likely they simply haven't updated the text on the web page rather than they've made a mistake in the validation of the data you enter when giving out appointments. Either way, I have an appointment for Monday, and I'm not feeling particularly guilty. It's at a remote site, so I'm freeing up a slot at the local centre for those not able to travel easily.

If there is a mistake in the coding, they've had plenty of time to fix it or issue a statement telling people not to book.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:49 AM   #931
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My healthcare provider set up a phone system that will report your position in line. Based on the current rate of movement my first vaccination shot will be three months from now.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:32 PM   #932
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The argument I heard on the radio was pretty compelling. It said that to prioritise by occupation, even if it could be done seamlessly, would only result in these people jumping the queue by about a week, and in practice the complicated re-prioritising necessary would actually slow down the whole exercise.

This is just selfishness on the part of groups who want to be seen as special. On the upside, the public spectacle of people fighting to get the vaccine and getting all huffy when they aren't bumped up the list may have an effect on people who are vaccine hesitant but not fullblown antivax nutcases.
Jason Leitch made the point that the age of the people who are in close contact with the workers is the real issue. Police officers do roll around on the ground and arrest 80 year olds, it is with 20 year olds. Teachers teach kids and younger people, not 80 year olds.

I also heard that GPs can easily rank by age, but many records do not show occupation, so that would mean a lot of work to find out what everyone does.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:42 PM   #933
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I'm surprised that the police hadn't already been done, especially those on the frontline policing lockdown violators, etc. On the other hand, once you start giving certain groups priority, where do you stop? There's also the practical side of keeping track; an age-based system is pretty straightforward, and can be run from the NHS database. Profession-based is more difficult to track.
Lots of police can easily socially distance as they work, such as CID taking statements. Many police work in offices and over the phone. The cops who get up close and personal are younger cops in the 20s and 30s in response, as they arrest teenagers and those in their 20s. I worked in custody for years over my career and I can count on one hand the number of over 80s we kept in cells and none of them wanted to fight.

I think we are now at 27 police officers have died in the UK, which works out at about 15 per 100,000, which is lower than every occupation being tracked by the ONS.

I get that many shifts lose cops to self-isolating when some twat coughs on them as they are being arrested. But there has also been large reductions in many crimes, so there has not been a collapse in law and order.

The unseemly demands by some police for the vaccine is just another instance of how the police have done rather badly during this crisis and lost public support.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9516566.html

"All prosecutions under the new Coronavirus Act have been unlawful, a review has found.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) revealed that all 44 charges it had so far checked had been withdrawn or overturned."

There have been numerous cases of police being seriously stupid and showing no common sense when it comes to mixing up guidance and the regs. Too many police have shown that they are not very bright and they neither understand the science or the law.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:18 PM   #934
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It appears that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine has a lower efficacy than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. But the J&J is one-dose, and the others are two-dose. Is there any indication that if people received two J&J shots, or just one of the others, the results would be more comparable?

Last edited by Bob001; 26th February 2021 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:56 PM   #935
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It appears that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine has a lower efficacy than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. But the J&J is one-dose, and the others are two-dose. Is there any indication that if people received two J&J shots, or just one of the others, the results would be more comparable?
They are actually doing studies regarding using second doses of the J&J vaccine that right now...

For example, one in the United States (See: WBTV) and one in the U.K. (See: Courier Journal)
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:11 PM   #936
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It's a competitive market. Easier handling... check.

Only one dose ... check.

No worries if two doses turn out to be better, by that time J&J market share will be established.

It's Pfizer now that needs to address the handling problem or they will lose any future market share when these other vaccines take more and more market share.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:11 PM   #937
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Jason Leitch made the point that the age of the people who are in close contact with the workers is the real issue. Police officers do roll around on the ground and arrest 80 year olds, it is with 20 year olds. Teachers teach kids and younger people, not 80 year olds.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Lots of police can easily socially distance as they work, such as CID taking statements. Many police work in offices and over the phone. The cops who get up close and personal are younger cops in the 20s and 30s in response, as they arrest teenagers and those in their 20s.
A couple of things need to be kept in mind...

- You talk about interactions between cops and 80 year olds vs. teenagers. Now, it is true that the elderly are more likely to die from covid than teenagers (or cops of working age). But, those teens and the police can both carry the virus (even if they have no or very mild symptoms). If the goal is to stop the overall spread of the virus, vaccinating the police might be useful (even if the police themselves, and/or those they normally interact with, are low risk.)

- You mentioned that "Lots of police can socially distance". How exactly can they determine that? Vaccinating by age is easy, but is there an easy way to identify which police interact with the community and which ones work in isolation? (At least from an overall policy perspective.)
Quote:
I think we are now at 27 police officers have died in the UK, which works out at about 15 per 100,000, which is lower than every occupation being tracked by the ONS.
I guess one question I would have is... do these figures account for health and age at all, and do they also consider those who don't die but have significant illness.

I figure a policeman would be (on average) healthier than an average desk worker (since police officers needs a certain amount of fitness as part of their job.) So simply looking at death rates might not give a good indication of the risks.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:22 PM   #938
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a competitive market.
...
It's Pfizer now that needs to address the handling problem or they will lose any future market share when these other vaccines take more and more market share.
A couple of things...

- Pfizer's vaccine still has significant issues with handling. But, there is a little more flexibility with the handling of the vaccines than when they started.

From: The FDA
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration announced that it is allowing undiluted frozen vials of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to be transported and stored at conventional temperatures commonly found in pharmaceutical freezers for a period of up to two weeks.

Still has to be kept ultra-cold much of the time, but this should make the distribution a little bit easier.

- The fact that Pfizer (and Moderna) were able to get its vaccine ready so quickly probably means that, if we need to come up with boosters to handle new variants, there is a good chance that Pfizer will be one of the first ones with an upgraded vaccine too.

Plus, while the J&J and AZ are pretty good vaccines, some people might think the extra coverage provided by Pfizer is worth it.
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:12 PM   #939
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Reposting from the general discussion thread.

Major rise in public support for COVID vaccine – Oxford study

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-02-24...e-oxford-study

"More than three quarters of people in the UK now say they are ’very likely’ to have the vaccine – up from 50% among the same group of survey respondents five months ago –according to a two-wave Oxford University survey published today [February 24, 2021]."

The study:

https://rpubs.com/benwansell/729135
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Old Yesterday, 05:36 AM   #940
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I think there is a "wisdom of crowds" thing going on here. All the news is about people flocking to get vaccinated, trying to get appointments, trying to jump the queue sometimes. The police in Britain got quite nasty when they were refused their request to go to the head of the queue. Antivaxers haven't been getting publicity. Nobody has been doing vox pops asking people to tell the camera why they don't want to be vaccinated. The general impression is of a mass of people basically pushing and shoving in their eagerness to get their hands on their shot.

In that atmosphere it's only human nature that people with no really strong opinions of their own, who have maybe been led by a web site or a video or a single newspaper article to have some doubts, are swinging to pro-vaccine in large numbers. There will always be a small number of nutters, but historically it has always been the case that in the face of an imminent threat of disease vaccine enthusiasm runs very high, and anti-vax sentiment is generally a phenomenon of complacency, when the vaccines are purely precautionary to guard against future re-introduction of disease, rather than an immediate necessity.
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Old Yesterday, 05:38 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The NHS website I booked through is (I didn't notice at the time) stating it's for over-64s without medical conditions. However, there's a lot of talk on the web saying it's now allowing over 60s to book, and I had no problem doing so. It does ask about various medical conditions, but I don't have any and it still gave me an appointment.

I think it's more likely they simply haven't updated the text on the web page rather than they've made a mistake in the validation of the data you enter when giving out appointments. Either way, I have an appointment for Monday, and I'm not feeling particularly guilty. It's at a remote site, so I'm freeing up a slot at the local centre for those not able to travel easily.

If there is a mistake in the coding, they've had plenty of time to fix it or issue a statement telling people not to book.

We're being told that the over 65s are pretty much done and they're well on their way getting through the over 60s. They've started calling the 50-60 age group. Looking at the raw stats England and Scotland are running pretty level on total percentage of population vaccinated, so you really should have been called in I'd have thought.
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Old Yesterday, 05:41 AM   #942
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I'm quite encouraged by the way Scotland has caught up with second doses. A month or two ago hardly any second doses had been given and the stats were way behind England. But now they've caught up and are actually running a hair ahead of England. So it doesn't look at the moment as if they're just going to forget all about second doses to keep the headline figure looking good.
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Old Yesterday, 06:23 AM   #943
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
A couple of things need to be kept in mind...

- You talk about interactions between cops and 80 year olds vs. teenagers. Now, it is true that the elderly are more likely to die from covid than teenagers (or cops of working age). But, those teens and the police can both carry the virus (even if they have no or very mild symptoms). If the goal is to stop the overall spread of the virus, vaccinating the police might be useful (even if the police themselves, and/or those they normally interact with, are low risk.)
The police missed an opportunity to argue their way into the vaccine priorities by not gathering evidence regards transmission and how many officers have to isolate, spread within offices, spread to family etc.

There have been claims of the police being superspreaders, but no evidence.

Quote:
- You mentioned that "Lots of police can socially distance". How exactly can they determine that? Vaccinating by age is easy, but is there an easy way to identify which police interact with the community and which ones work in isolation? (At least from an overall policy perspective.)
In Police Scotland, the SCOPE system can easily identify response, traffic, CID and community police officers, those who are most likely to be arresting (the highest risk) people.

Quote:
I guess one question I would have is... do these figures account for health and age at all, and do they also consider those who don't die but have significant illness.

I figure a policeman would be (on average) healthier than an average desk worker (since police officers needs a certain amount of fitness as part of their job.) So simply looking at death rates might not give a good indication of the risks.
The vaccine priority is to reduce deaths and the police very rarely die, in part due to their relatively young age.
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Old Yesterday, 06:32 AM   #944
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think there is a "wisdom of crowds" thing going on here. All the news is about people flocking to get vaccinated, trying to get appointments, trying to jump the queue sometimes. The police in Britain got quite nasty when they were refused their request to go to the head of the queue. Antivaxers haven't been getting publicity. Nobody has been doing vox pops asking people to tell the camera why they don't want to be vaccinated. The general impression is of a mass of people basically pushing and shoving in their eagerness to get their hands on their shot.

In that atmosphere it's only human nature that people with no really strong opinions of their own, who have maybe been led by a web site or a video or a single newspaper article to have some doubts, are swinging to pro-vaccine in large numbers. There will always be a small number of nutters, but historically it has always been the case that in the face of an imminent threat of disease vaccine enthusiasm runs very high, and anti-vax sentiment is generally a phenomenon of complacency, when the vaccines are purely precautionary to guard against future re-introduction of disease, rather than an immediate necessity.
In one sense, scarcity may actually be a good motivator for getting people vaccinated. Things are more desirable, generally and all else being equal, if they are not so easy to get. As long as the scarcity is more illusory than actual of course.

It's like the clubhouse app. People want to get invited because signing up is seen as something special and rare. Only those invited can join the Elon Musks of the world!

Let's hope that "anti-vaxx" is the preserve of the deliberately unfashionable.
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Old Yesterday, 08:05 AM   #945
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That's a good point too of course. If people see a queue for something, the instinct is to join the queue to avoid missing out on something others obviously see as desirable. Witness the many stories from the wartime years of people joining queues with no actual idea of what was on offer at the head of the line.
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 AM   #946
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm quite encouraged by the way Scotland has caught up with second doses. A month or two ago hardly any second doses had been given and the stats were way behind England. But now they've caught up and are actually running a hair ahead of England. So it doesn't look at the moment as if they're just going to forget all about second doses to keep the headline figure looking good.
Just got my second dose 70 days after the first. More of a flu type response than with the first dose. Generally a bit achey etc.
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Old Yesterday, 09:19 AM   #947
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In one sense, scarcity may actually be a good motivator for getting people vaccinated. Things are more desirable, generally and all else being equal, if they are not so easy to get. As long as the scarcity is more illusory than actual of course.

It's like the clubhouse app. People want to get invited because signing up is seen as something special and rare. Only those invited can join the Elon Musks of the world!

Let's hope that "anti-vaxx" is the preserve of the deliberately unfashionable.
A somewhat different attitude in Europe; from the FT

Quote:
After battling with AstraZeneca over shipment delays, and even casting doubt over its Covid-19 jab’s efficacy, EU countries are seeing stocks of the company’s shots pile up — unused.

As of Friday, France had administered 16 per cent of the 1.1m doses of the two-injection vaccine it received since the first delivery in early February, according to health ministry data.*As of Thursday, Germany had given a little over one-fifth of the 1.45 million doses, about the same proportion as Italy, which has received over 1m doses. Spain has used just under a third of a total of 808,000 doses as of Friday.
https://www.ft.com/content/767fdd85-...5-4ec85d28b492
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Old Yesterday, 09:38 AM   #948
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
A somewhat different attitude in Europe; from the FT



https://www.ft.com/content/767fdd85-...5-4ec85d28b492
Angrysoba appeared to be referring to jabs in general. Your link refers to the AZ jab only. Is there any evidence of reticence involving the pfizer jab - or any other jab than AZ?
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Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #949
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
A somewhat different attitude in Europe; from the FT



https://www.ft.com/content/767fdd85-...5-4ec85d28b492
It seems to be a backlash against the Brits and all that brouhaha over the EU not getting the supplies they ordered. In addition, many EU countries have put an age limit on it. In Germany it is under-65's only. In Finland, it is 18 -70 only. This has made some people feel it hasn't been tested enough or was brought out in a hurry.

Whilst I disapproved of the ridiculous flag waving by the British government in this matter and the useless CEO of AstraZeneca Pascal Soriot, I think AZ has actually been admirably cautious in not trialling the new vaccine with too many older people and not overstating the efficacy. This gives me more confidence in the AZ vaccine than, say, the Russian or the Chinese one. In any case, the one-shot Johnson & Johnson one will be out at the end of March so the early vaccines might become moot.
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Old Yesterday, 04:04 PM   #950
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Angrysoba appeared to be referring to jabs in general. Your link refers to the AZ jab only. Is there any evidence of reticence involving the pfizer jab - or any other jab than AZ?
I do not know the statistics for Pfizer vaccine which is the only other vaccine in use in Europe.

Whether there is an anti-British component or the comments by politicians (Macron), or the restrictions in age usage (although licensed for use in the EU in all adult age groups) one can guess at.

The worry is that having sowed doubt in the vaccine it will be hard to restore. Given that there is a shortage of vaccine a reluctance to use one vaccine results in a delay in vaccination. It might also lead to reluctance in its use elsewhere. Since the AZ vaccine is the only not-for-profit vaccine and currently the cheapest this does have issues for poorer countries. It is worth remembering that one cannot compare efficacies easily between vaccines from their trials because case definitions differ. In the real world a direct comparison shows little difference (given that the UK is rolling out from the oldest and most vulnerable first, the figures from Scotland below will include a large number of very elderly recipients).

Quote:
The results, show that four weeks after the first doses of the Pfizer BioNTech and Oxford AstraZeneca vaccines were administered the risk of hospitalisation from covid-19 fell by up to 85% (95% confidence interval 76 to 91) and 94% (95% CI 73 to 99), respectively.
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Old Yesterday, 10:42 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Angrysoba appeared to be referring to jabs in general. Your link refers to the AZ jab only. Is there any evidence of reticence involving the pfizer jab - or any other jab than AZ?
Not in Czech Republic. (Especially after some of rich people and politicians jumped the queue) We have only classical problem of terminally incompetent government (and maybe even incompetently corrupt) and thus massive problems with distribution itself.
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Old Today, 10:26 AM   #952
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Just got an appointment for both jabs - the first one will be on Wednesday. Incredibly easy to set up. My second jab will happen in May.
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Old Today, 10:51 AM   #953
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, the person administering the shot has been stood down, but most in the medical community are focused on "how did this happen and how can we prevent it from happening again" which I think is appropriate.
My guess would be that the vial didn't get diluted before the shot.
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