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Old 20th May 2017, 08:32 PM   #201
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Disagreed: every fight is about two fighters and their respective abilities at one time and place.

Also, what is MMA? Mixed martial arts, applied to the ring fighting. Of course it's effective, that's what it is designed for. Is it ideal for self-defense/combat? Not really. Self-defense techniques tend to be very nasty and unsportsmanlike, and most grappling leaves you wide open to your attacker's buddy/buddies (I think street fights are only rarely one-on-one). So how exactly is MMA superior? Because it does what it is designed to do well? Ok, TMA do what they are designed to do well, too: overall well-being and practical self-defense as opposed to cage matches. It's really an apples and oranges comparison. Both can be effectively be used for health and self-defense, but I don't get the point of saying MMA are superior...in an MMA style match.
The issue in China is TMA claiming they can defeat MMA in an MMA match.
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:27 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'd like to hear more about this.
Under spoiler so as not to clog the page. I cut two thirds out because it is too long

At an Aikido seminar on the late '90's, I was one of many junior students invited to take a run at a guest instructor in randori, which is multiple attackers going after one defender more or less simultaneously. I came in on his side and when I was in striking range I went for his upper legs for a jiujutsu style takedown. His side was inches from my face and my arms had fully encirled him, about to take hold (I was fully committed and moving fast), and then he was two feet farther out of reach and dealing with someone else. I thumped down on my knees and elbows, having basically thrown myself by overcommitting and expecting full resistance. It was kind of like when you are going up or down stairs and think there is one more or less at he end. As near as I can figure out, he was gliding backwards as I closed in, in perfect sync with my speed, so it looked to me like he was standing still, then sped up and spun away at the last split second when I passed the point of no return. Aikidoka wear a black skirt-looking thing called a hakama, which conceal the movement of hips and legs and hid his lower body movement from me. I think that contributes to the illusion of him not moving when he really was. It was kind of like reaching for a cup of coffee, seeing your hand wrap around it, and when you grip that last inch, the cup is six inches away. The timing and sense of range he had to pull this off was to me just amazing; I was wholeheartedly trying to grab him and would have bet a valued appendage that I had him, right up until I hit the mat.
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:51 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I've seen NBA players do that hundreds of times; most of them aren't even novice Aikidoka.
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I used to do it to guys in flag football all the time. Zero Aikido training.
Well...yeah, of course anyone can do it to different degrees, with or without Aikido training. I would think that was pretty self-evident. The point is that an experienced aikidoka can raise it to an art form, and that it comes as close as reasonably possible to a no-touch (or 'breath')throw, as opposed to the make-pretend junk from upthread videos.
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:53 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The issue in China is TMA claiming they can defeat MMA in an MMA match.
I understood the issue to be MMA fighter Xu claiming that TMA were fraudulent. I did not hear TMA reps boasting about anything.
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:19 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'd like to hear more about this.
I did see this in a formalised attack and counter in a soft* karate style. It relied on the counter being instigated once the attacker was committed to the attack, so their avoiding the attack caused them to fall. It was a very linear style, from what I saw, so there were lots of constraints that made this more likely.

From what I saw, they were very good at spotting the start of a single attack - I don't know how well it would work in a more fluid situation, let alone a real fight.

In the end, I found that fencing sabre gave me the sporting sparring that I enjoyed, without any of the baggage. You can still "box a fighter and fight a boxer" in sabre fencing.


Actually, the bit about fighting a boxer seems to be what the MMA fighter did in the OP.


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Old 21st May 2017, 05:23 AM   #206
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After reading what Mostly Dead spoilered, again, it was again waiting for someone to be overcommitted to an attack.
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:28 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
After reading what Mostly Dead spoilered, again, it was again waiting for someone to be overcommitted to an attack.
To call that "throwing a person without contact" is silly. Holly Holmes moved out of one of Rousey's wild punches and Rousey stumbled into the fence, but I wouldn't call that a throw. No contact throwing says more about the person "thrown" than the thrower.
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:57 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I understood the issue to be MMA fighter Xu claiming that TMA were fraudulent. I did not hear TMA reps boasting about anything.
Wei seems to have thought he was going to win with his TMA skills.

And the drink billionaire claims several masters have come forward to fight got the prize of beating xu.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39853374

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 21st May 2017 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:05 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post

Pretty sure the Tai Chi guy (Lei) in this video was training the full art, not just the form. I also don't think anyone in China, where the fight took place, thought that Lei just trained the form. Maybe it's a Western misconception that Tai Chi is assumed to be just a meditative form? It's fine for what it is, but I really don't think anyone practicing it thinks they have developed combat prowess.
I've now seen a video of Lei doing what is supposed to be a Chen TC form and it's laughable - no body structure at all and throwing in weird wiggles like his clothes are chafing him.
link via FB -sorry
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:20 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
After reading what Mostly Dead spoilered, again, it was again waiting for someone to be overcommitted to an attack.
Seems to me that the fault lies with the person whose balance is so awful that they fall over if their attack doesn't connect.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
After reading what Mostly Dead spoilered, again, it was again waiting for someone to be overcommitted to an attack.
Yes, but it is more than just waiting. It is staying in perfect sync with them to draw out that commitment and guide it. Emphasis in Aikido training is put on learning how to feel what your attacker is doing and flowing with it, then turning his own momentum against him. When you apply training moves to combat, you get that Steven Segal look (it gets choppier and more crude) but the essence of the techniques still work. Aikido is not a gritty combat art, but it is of course not meant to be.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:02 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
To call that "throwing a person without contact" is silly. Holly Holmes moved out of one of Rousey's wild punches and Rousey stumbled into the fence, but I wouldn't call that a throw. No contact throwing says more about the person "thrown" than the thrower.
'No-touch throw' is just a euphemism, of course it is not meant literally. And Holmes just moved, she did not get in sync and flow with Rousey, it is a night-and-day difference. Based on your screen name, I would assume you train? Have you never trained with a judoka? They use similar principles to throw an opponent (although more actively). Turning someone's commitment against them should be familiar to you, even if it is called by a different name.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:08 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I've now seen a video of Lei doing what is supposed to be a Chen TC form and it's laughable - no body structure at all and throwing in weird wiggles like his clothes are chafing him.
link via FB -sorry
Ok, that looked pretty bad. I have not been taught Tai chi, but in Kempo we practiced a form called Ki no kata that borrowed heavily from Tai chi, and Lei's balance and weight distribution do seem at odds with everything I was taught. I don't know anything about this guy, but I read that he had some level of standing in China, and there was a TV show featuring his alleged skills. Do you know if he was of any regard in China?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:30 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Ok, that looked pretty bad. I have not been taught Tai chi, but in Kempo we practiced a form called Ki no kata that borrowed heavily from Tai chi, and Lei's balance and weight distribution do seem at odds with everything I was taught. I don't know anything about this guy, but I read that he had some level of standing in China, and there was a TV show featuring his alleged skills. Do you know if he was of any regard in China?
Someone told me he was on a show called "Experience real Kung fu" where he trimmed a pigeon's feathers so he could replicate the trick Yang Lu Can supposedly did of being so sensitive to the birds movements it couldn't take off. All I know.
eta: Sorry nobody I know seems to have heard much of the guy, FWIW.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:42 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seems to me that the fault lies with the person whose balance is so awful that they fall over if their attack doesn't connect.
Seems to me you have never even watched a fight on TV. If you had, you would be well aware that world-class professionals, from boxing to MMA, occasionally slip up when overcommited. Thaiboxerken actually cited a well-known example a couple posts up. I guess you think Rousey, an Olympic medal winning judoka and professional athlete, has 'awful' balance too? Is there really no room in your imagination to conceive that someone who trains for years can develop the skill required to move with timing and subtlety so as to create a whole-body illusion of movement, similar to a stage magician's slight of hand?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 10:34 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yes, but it is more than just waiting. It is staying in perfect sync with them to draw out that commitment and guide it. Emphasis in Aikido training is put on learning how to feel what your attacker is doing and flowing with it, then turning his own momentum against him. When you apply training moves to combat, you get that Steven Segal look (it gets choppier and more crude) but the essence of the techniques still work. Aikido is not a gritty combat art, but it is of course not meant to be.
OK, that was slightly different from what I saw, where it was a realistic counter, performed just as the attacker had started to move, so that their best option was to evade it by falling.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
To call that "throwing a person without contact" is silly. Holly Holmes moved out of one of Rousey's wild punches and Rousey stumbled into the fence, but I wouldn't call that a throw. No contact throwing says more about the person "thrown" than the thrower.
What else could it be - assuming that you are staying within the laws of physics?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:27 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Seems to me you have never even watched a fight on TV. If you had, you would be well aware that world-class professionals, from boxing to MMA, occasionally slip up when overcommited. Thaiboxerken actually cited a well-known example a couple posts up. I guess you think Rousey, an Olympic medal winning judoka and professional athlete, has 'awful' balance too? Is there really no room in your imagination to conceive that someone who trains for years can develop the skill required to move with timing and subtlety so as to create a whole-body illusion of movement, similar to a stage magician's slight of hand?
Seems to me that if you fall over when your attack misses, you're doing it wrong.

If you are saying that even world-class martial artists can make mistakes that their opponents can exploit, then we have no disagreement. But if you are saying that world-class martial artists are intending to move in such a way that they fall over if they miss then I call bull.

No training scheme in the world has ever advocated being in a position where you fall over if you miss. Even Capo Ferro, in advocating that most vulnerable of positions, the lunge, ensured that his students retained their balance in the execution of the manoeuvre.



I don't know boxing or judo or MMA, but I do know WMA, and it is as deadly as it is practical. And in no case I am aware of does a master teach a position where you fall over if you miss. There are grips and grapples and throws galore, but you are doing that to your opponent. They are not launching themselves into you in such a way that by using timing and subtlety, you can "cause" them to fall over. Unless they are terrible. I've had first-time students do it. This is why I teach footwork, the first principle of which is balance.

You commit to an attack. You do no overcommit, or you end up with a sword in the face. You do not swing wildly. Wild swings can be exploited by your opponent. Know at all times where your centre of balance is and where it is going. It's the first thing I teach in my footwork masterclasses. You keep tight and total control over your body and your weapon (even - especially - if your body is the weapon) at all times, or you lose. It's as simple as that.

Take another look at what thaiboxerken said:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
To call that "throwing a person without contact" is silly. Holly Holmes moved out of one of Rousey's wild punches and Rousey stumbled into the fence, but I wouldn't call that a throw. No contact throwing says more about the person "thrown" than the thrower.
I don't know Holmes and Rousey from Joe the Plumber, but by thaiboxerken's own description, Rousey threw a wild punch and stumbled into the fence. That's Rousey's fault. He may be well-trained and a world-class martial artist, but he made a mistake that his opponent, presumably, was able to exploit.

In WMA, if you make a mistake, your opponent puts their sword in your face.



The stakes are lower in MMA which is, when we get down to it, a sport and not a contest where death or serious injury is the intended end result. WMA, which is not a sport but a deadly competition where lethality is the goal, teaches that you retain your balance.

To summarise: if you are thinking that I am saying anything that thaiboxerken isn't saying, then I have not explained myself properly. I hope that I have cleared that up.

Images from "Great Representation of the Art and Use of Fencing"
by Ridolfo Capo Ferro, 1610
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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:44 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
'No-touch throw' is just a euphemism, of course it is not meant literally. And Holmes just moved, she did not get in sync and flow with Rousey, it is a night-and-day difference. Based on your screen name, I would assume you train? Have you never trained with a judoka? They use similar principles to throw an opponent (although more actively). Turning someone's commitment against them should be familiar to you, even if it is called by a different name.
I have a green belt in Judo and I would not use your euphemisms. Yes, it is easier to toss a person if you get them off balance by taking advantage of an over-commitment. I doubt that Aikido masters are any more adept at this than Judoka, BJJ or MMA practitioners.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:50 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seems to me that if you fall over when your attack misses, you're doing it wrong.
Also, I'd like to add that many Aikido demonstrations appear to depend on the feeder over-committing, hence the ridiculous looking "no-touch" or "one finger" tosses. Then, there are the extreme examples where an Aikido master just waves a hand and his students stumble and fall over. For some reason, their mastery doesn't work on non-students of the "master."
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Old 22nd May 2017, 09:19 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Also, I'd like to add that many Aikido demonstrations appear to depend on the feeder over-committing, hence the ridiculous looking "no-touch" or "one finger" tosses. Then, there are the extreme examples where an Aikido master just waves a hand and his students stumble and fall over. For some reason, their mastery doesn't work on non-students of the "master."
For ages I've wanted a master to try and knock me over with his chi.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 10:14 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For ages I've wanted a master to try and knock me over with his chi.
I was in an elevator once and a guy knocked me over with his chi. Well, it was either chi or Taco Bell.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 10:42 AM   #222
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I recently re-watched the movie "Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins". Joel Grey portrays Chiun, the Master of Sinanju, an ancient Korean martial art. Chiun could defeat any challenger! Where can I learn Sinanju?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 04:17 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seems to me that if you fall over when your attack misses, you're doing it wrong.

If you are saying that even world-class martial artists can make mistakes that their opponents can exploit, then we have no disagreement. But if you are saying that world-class martial artists are intending to move in such a way that they fall over if they miss then I call bull.
Ok, I don't understand how you could possibly interpret that from any of my comments. Aikidoka train to coax out an overcommitment and exploit it defensively, but of course no attacker is intending to fall if they don't connect. I said nothing remotely like that.

Quote:
I don't know Holmes and Rousey from Joe the Plumber, but by thaiboxerken's own description, Rousey threw a wild punch and stumbled into the fence. That's Rousey's fault. He may be well-trained and a world-class martial artist, but he made a mistake that his opponent, presumably, was able to exploit.
Ronda Rousey is a woman. If I recall what thaiboxerken was referring to, her opponent (Holly Holmes) ducked and stepped aside from a lunging hook, and Rousey slipped or was tripped and casually bounced off the cage wall. Nothing came of it, fight-wise.

Quote:
The stakes are lower in MMA which is, when we get down to it, a sport and not a contest where death or serious injury is the intended end result. WMA, which is not a sport but a deadly competition where lethality is the goal, teaches that you retain your balance.
Interesting use of the present tense. Skewering blokes down under are we?

I would actually view it the opposite way- WMA was lethal, and is now purely a sport. MMA draws real blood and injuries, the intent being to beat your opponent bloody and/or unconscious. The stakes in MMA are much higher because they are real.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:08 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yes, but it is more than just waiting. It is staying in perfect sync with them to draw out that commitment and guide it. Emphasis in Aikido training is put on learning how to feel what your attacker is doing and flowing with it, then turning his own momentum against him. When you apply training moves to combat, you get that Steven Segal look (it gets choppier and more crude) but the essence of the techniques still work. Aikido is not a gritty combat art, but it is of course not meant to be.
Aikido only works when your uke goes along with you, its ******** otherwise.
It fails every time with a non compliant partner.
All this talk about flowing and turning nonsense only works in the dojo with compliant partners.
Try and stay in perfect sync with someone to draw out whatever you want, when they have punched you in the face lets see how your plan works out.
aikido is nonsense.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:32 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Ok, I don't understand how you could possibly interpret that from any of my comments. Aikidoka train to coax out an overcommitment and exploit it defensively, but of course no attacker is intending to fall if they don't connect. I said nothing remotely like that.
Then I don't understand what we are disagreeing about.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Ronda Rousey is a woman. If I recall what thaiboxerken was referring to, her opponent (Holly Holmes) ducked and stepped aside from a lunging hook, and Rousey slipped or was tripped and casually bounced off the cage wall. Nothing came of it, fight-wise.
Like I said, I know nothing of this industry or the players.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Interesting use of the present tense. Skewering blokes down under are we?
We train as though it were real. Of course these days I mostly train in LARP, which is nothing like what I have been talking about.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I would actually view it the opposite way- WMA was lethal, and is now purely a sport. MMA draws real blood and injuries, the intent being to beat your opponent bloody and/or unconscious. The stakes in MMA are much higher because they are real.
I grant that this is a valid alternative interpretation.

*********** barbaric, but a valid interpretation.
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Old 24th May 2017, 06:34 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Aikido only works when your uke goes along with you, its ******** otherwise.
Only during the earliest learning stages. It takes a long time to get some of the techniques functional. Practitioners tend to train in it for the other benefits- exercise, fun, balance, coordination, etc. You know, what you think is BS. Are you evaluating it solely in terms of combat efficiency? Why?

Quote:
It fails every time with a non compliant partner.
Dead wrong. I stopped training in it abt 20 years ago, as it was not suited to my approach or goals. But in sparring even today, I use the many variants of ikkyo and irimi moves in every fight, and occasional improvised kote-gaeshi or even shiho-nage (sp? for all). I assume based on your use of 'uke' that you know what I am talking about. Some of the techniques work well against a fully resisting partner.

Quote:
All this talk about flowing and turning nonsense only works in the dojo with compliant partners.
Try and stay in perfect sync with someone to draw out whatever you want, when they have punched you in the face lets see how your plan works out.
aikido is nonsense.
If you apply the techniques well, ya don't get popped that easily. Even when a partner throws a tentative, uncomitted jab, I can use an irimi entrance to a fairly textbook ikkyo and it works pretty well. With a strong, comitted strike it is much easier. It's not all leading in circles: Aikido incorporates hand techniques that work if you have a decent grip.

The reason I am (wasting time) defending Aikido is because of opinions like yours (please don't take offense). If you are a professional MMA fighter, loan shark, combat soldier, or otherwise kill people regularly, it is not the best art for you. For anyone else, it would certainly have some benefits, and doesn't warrant the across-the-board dismissal as nonsense that some people get by watching a YT vid with featuring some hack. Like any other art, there are benefits there if you look for them and work at them.
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Old 26th May 2017, 09:32 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
I was in an elevator once and a guy knocked me over with his chi. Well, it was either chi or Taco Bell.
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