Merged: US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's nonsense but here we are with an idiot POTUS that believes this kind of crap, and in addition they are looking for an excuse to demonize Cuba anyway because ... Obama, brown people.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Obama, brown people.

Come on, you really can’t expect decent US American diplomats to enjoy staying in a third-world hellhole like Cuba!

Quote:

According to a 2014 report by The World Bank, Cuba has the best education system in Latin American and the Caribbean and (is) the only country on the continent to have a high-level teaching faculty. The World Bank Report also praises Cuba for its success in the fields of education and health, with social services that exceeds those of most developing countries and, in certain sectors, are comparable to those of the developed nations. The country’s social system that ensures state-sponsored universal access to education and health services has helped Cuba to achieve universal literacy, eradicate certain diseases and provide universal access to safe drinking water and basic public sanitation. Cuba now has one of the region’s lowest infant mortality rates and longest life expectancies.
[url:https://acei-global.blog/2015/01/08/15-facts-on-cuba-and-its-education-system/]15 Facts on Cuba and Its Education System[/url]15 facs on Cuba and its education system

World Bank: Cuba Has the Best Education System in Latin America and the Caribbean
Cuba’s Academic Advantage: Why Students in Cuba Do Better in School
Level of educational achievement (wikipedia)

[dann]

Quote:

The FBI and other agencies that searched homes and hotels where incidents occurred found no devices. And clues about the circumstances of the incidents seem to make any explanation scientifically implausible.

Al Jazeera's Patty Culhane, reporting from Washington, DC, described the case as a "bizarre international mystery".
"The US is taking these steps and you might ask, "Do they have some evidence? Was Cuba involved?' Well, the answer is 'no'," she said.
"Senior US State Department officials say the investigation is ongoing and that they still have absolutely no idea what harmed their diplomats.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...160350671.html

It's about time for this comparison:

Quote:

Although U.S. search teams in Iraq have so far produced no proof of weapons of mass destruction, President Bush said Monday he remains "absolutely convinced" the evidence will be found.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLIT...rsy/index.html

Why doesn't somebody call Hans Blix?!

[dann]

Do 'Sonic Weapons' Adequately Explain 'Health Attacks' on Diplomats in Cuba? (snopes.com, Sep. 25, 2017)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dann

Do 'Sonic Weapons' Adequately Explain 'Health Attacks' on Diplomats in Cuba? (snopes.com, Sep. 25, 2017)

I'm glad Snopes addressed it. And I'm confident they got it right as I noted above. This kind of false belief is common and has many common features involved like people's symptoms are inconsistent and there is a focus of the CT like an employer or in this case the Cuban government.

[casebro]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'm glad Snopes addressed it. And I'm confident they got it right as I noted above. This kind of false belief is common and has many common features involved like people's symptoms are inconsistent and there is a focus of the CT like an employer or in this case the Cuban government.

You mean to tell me sonic attacks are NOT the cause of Morgellons ?

[dann]

Originally Posted by casebro

You mean to tell me sonic attacks are NOT the cause of Morgellons ?

What is your point?
That the symptoms suffered by US diplmats still might be caused by aliens?

Quote:

In 2008, the Washington Post reported that Internet discussions about Morgellons include many conspiracy theories about the cause, including biological warfare, nanotechnology, chemtrails and extraterrestrial life.

or that the POTUS, Commander in Chief Donald Trump, suffers from Munchausen by proxy?

Quote:

Psychology Today reports that Leitao last consulted an unnamed Johns Hopkins infectious disease specialist who, after reviewing her son's records refused to see him, suggesting Leitao herself might have "Munchausen's by proxy, a psychiatric syndrome in which a parent pretends a child is sick or makes him sick to get attention from the medical system".

I look forward to the article in Psycology Today.

[dann]

We should probably also consider that the whole thing might be caused by something far more sinister than sonic attacks:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[dann]

By the way, in the trailer for the Cuban film Juan de los Muertos (Wikipedia) // Juan of the Dead (Wikipedia), you can see the building of the US embassy in Havana (when the movie was made: the US Interest Section) in the background, behind the attacking 'dissidents', from 0:36 to 0:38.

[dann]

More Cuban diplomats expelled after alleged attacks on US diplomats:

Quote:

At the news conference Tuesday, Rodríguez Parilla said Cuban investigators had no evidence that any attacks had taken place and that the US needed to allow the Cubans access to affected diplomats and the doctors in the US that have treated them. He also said Cuban investigators have not been allowed by the US to examine the residences in Havana where the American diplomats reported the alleged attacks.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/po...aff/index.html

Cuba has very qualified medical doctors, so why not let them take a look at the US diplomats and interview their US doctors? Cuba let the FBI investigate in Havana …

[The Don]

Originally Posted by dann

More Cuban diplomats expelled after alleged attacks on US diplomats:

I don't want to have to don the tinfoil hat, but this increasingly sounds like a manufactured crisis in order to dismantle diplomatic relationships with Cuba and erase yet another Obama accomplishment

It sounds like a 60's fantasy, undisclosed "weapons" targeting US diplomats and IMO it's even more ridiculous when Cuban diplomats are being expelled for not doing enough to stop an "attack" where it's not clear that an attack happened and no-one can say who is suspected of the attack and how they might have carried it out.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by The Don

I don't want to have to don the tinfoil hat, but this increasingly sounds like a manufactured crisis in order to dismantle diplomatic relationships with Cuba and erase yet another Obama accomplishment

It sounds like a 60's fantasy, undisclosed "weapons" targeting US diplomats and IMO it's even more ridiculous when Cuban diplomats are being expelled for not doing enough to stop an "attack" where it's not clear that an attack happened and no-one can say who is suspected of the attack and how they might have carried it out.

You aren't wearing a tinfoil hat to come to the more reasonable conclusion. The hatters LOVE this story!
A couple days ago the AP news was that the first 'diplomats' affected, just days after Trumps election, were intelligence officers... aka SPIES! It seems several sources were willing to confirm this to reporters. Adding legs to the 'attack' story?

But I don't believe it was manufactured from the start. They took it, fed it, and grew it to ridiculous proportions.

If you have ever watched young children play and one of them falls or scrapes a knee, there is a moment where they look up to gauge the adult reaction. Stay calm and the kid isn't likely to cry. They stop for a few seconds and go on playing. Rush in and make a big deal and not only will the fallen kid cry, but the other kids get worried and upset as well!

[dann]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

A couple days ago the AP news was that the first 'diplomats' affected, just days after Trumps election, were intelligence officers... aka SPIES!

From the AP news story:

Quote:

Though the State Department has called all the cases “medically confirmed,” several U.S. officials said it’s unclear whether all (!) of the victims’ symptoms can be conclusively (!) tied to attacks. Considering the deep sense of alarm among Americans working in the embassy, it’s possible (!) some (!) workers attributed unrelated illnesses to attacks.(My (!)s, dann)

No wonder that

Quote:

Some in the U.S. government believe the Cubans may be telling the truth

[dann]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

If you have ever watched young children play and one of them falls or scrapes a knee, there is a moment where they look up to gauge the adult reaction. Stay calm and the kid isn't likely to cry. They stop for a few seconds and go on playing. Rush in and make a big deal and not only will the fallen kid cry, but the other kids get worried and upset as well!

And by now, every hypochondriac who ever stayed at the Hotel Capri in Havana appears to have scraped a knee:

Quote:

"Since we issued the September 29 Travel Warning, we have received a handful of reports from U.S. citizens who report they experienced similar symptoms following stays in Cuba," a State Department official told CBS News. "We have no way of verifying whether they were harmed by the same attacks targeting official U.S. employees."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/10...s-attacks.html

My guess is that they were 'harmed' by the exact same 'attacks' …


Aggression against U.S. diplomats in Havana: Unfounded and implausible (Oct. 5), from the Cuban newspaper Granma, which Breitbart calls ”communist propaganda outlet Granma”.

Also from Granma: Declaración del Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores (Oct. 3)

[dann]

New York Times, Oct. 5:

Quote:

“I believe those people got something that hurt them,” said Dr. Qin. “But it could be something in the environment.” The possibilities include toxins, or bacterial or viral infections, that can damage hearing.

Dr. Leighton said contagious anxiety or another psychogenic contributor couldn’t be ruled out. “If you make people anxious that they’re under attack from an ultrasonic weapon, those are the symptoms you’ll get,” he said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/s...ic-weapon.html

[dann]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Exactly. How does a doctor verify 'hearing loss' independent of the patients reporting?

Normal hearing tests use tones where the patient raises their hand when they can hear it. To really determine it, they'd have to look at how the brain itself responds to sound, independent of what the person says they can/cannot hear.

According to this recent article in Wired, there are objective ways of diagnosing impaired hearing:

Quote:

“Hair cells give off wee little whistles when functioning normally—otoacoustic emissions—that can test if they’re functioning normally. And then there’s auditory brain-stem testing to see if the damage is central instead of peripheral.”

The rest of the article hypothesizes that a combination of chemicals (ototoxicity) and sonics might have caused the symptoms suffered by the U.S. spies in Cuba.

[Alphaba]

Quite interesting divergent developments about this affair since yesterday.

On the one hand, the Guardian published an article relying upon "[s]enior neurologists " to push a "mass hysteria" explanatory hypothesis (BTW, "mass hysteria" has been relabeled mass psychogenic illness since the nineties).

On the other hand, Associated Press has put online what they claimed to be the first public audio of the sound allegedly broadcast to the affected persons in Cuba:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Obviously, major news medias then analyzed this audio file, like in making a specter analysis. And cautiously commented about it, a worthy example being an NBC article: "Listen to What Americans Heard in Mysterious Cuba Sound ‘Incidents’".

Well, I've made with Audacity a sound specter of the AP file:


Out of the obvious 50-240 Hz AC hum/noise background parasitizing the recording device (I've a lot of it on my own records ), what's curious is around the 7000 Hz peak. I'll focus on it if you're interested.

[dann]

An old modem?! (youtube)
Also on iflscience.com.
The AP News story
Yes, please focus! And let us know if it encourages us to commit ritual satanic abuse if you play it backwards!

[mgidm86]

Quote:

On the other hand, Associated Press has put online what they claimed to be the first public audio of the sound allegedly broadcast to the affected persons in Cuba:

Just as I suspected - bad fluorescent light ballasts!

What was this audio recorded with? How much of the spectrum was lost?

This is so stupid. Any of us who have been at this site long enough have seen this phenomenon before in the paranormal section. It's called bullcrap.

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

What was this audio recorded with?

A cellphone.

Quote:

How much of the spectrum was lost?

Kausik Sarkar, an acoustics expert and engineering professor at George Washington University said...

Originally Posted by CNN

The audio file also only "contains the audible part of the spectrum" meaning "we don't know the acoustic energy in the lower frequency (infrasound) and higher frequency (ultrasound) ranges," he said, adding that there could be lot more sound energy pounding the ears of victims in those parts...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politi...ons/index.html

[dann]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

This is so stupid. Any of us who have been at this site long enough have seen this phenomenon before in the paranormal section. It's called bullcrap.

Quote:

Not all Americans injured in Cuba heard sounds. Of those who did, it’s not clear they heard precisely the same thing.

Yet the AP has reviewed several recordings from Havana taken under different circumstances, and all have variations of the same high-pitched sound. Individuals who have heard the noise in Havana confirm (!!!) the recordings are generally consistent with what they heard.

“That’s the sound,” one (!!!) of them said. (my (!!!), dann)

That's the way to do it! That's how a true pro would tackle it! You go to a convention of UFO abductees and instead of asking them what their alleged abductors looked like, you show them a photo of a Grey one from Close Encounters:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

and ask them: "Is this what your abductors looked like?!"

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Alphaba

Quite interesting divergent developments about this affair since yesterday.

On the one hand, the Guardian published an article relying upon "[s]enior neurologists " to push a "mass hysteria" explanatory hypothesis (BTW, "mass hysteria" has been relabeled mass psychogenic illness since the nineties).

On the other hand, Associated Press has put online what they claimed to be the first public audio of the sound allegedly broadcast to the affected persons in Cuba:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Obviously, major news medias then analyzed this audio file, like in making a specter analysis. And cautiously commented about it, a worthy example being an NBC article: "Listen to What Americans Heard in Mysterious Cuba Sound ‘Incidents’".

Well, I've made with Audacity a sound specter of the AP file:
https://media.joomeo.com/large/59e0fffc6fb9a.jpg

Out of the obvious 50-240 Hz AC hum/noise background parasitizing the recording device (I've a lot of it on my own records ), what's curious is around the 7000 Hz peak. I'll focus on it if you're interested.

Forgive me, but I have an immensely difficult time believing this is inadvertent leaking sound from radio equipment, or some badly-installed air conditioning unit.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Forgive me, but I have an immensely difficult time believing this is inadvertent leaking sound from radio equipment, or some badly-installed air conditioning unit.

Me too! But I have an even harder time believing that this is the emission of a super-sonic weapon (or even listening device) targeted at U.S. diplomats in order to make them deaf (or inadvertently rendering them so).

[calebprime]

A tone at 8k is very directional, very hearable, and won't penetrate most solid walls.

There may have been other elements to the sound, but if that 8k was there, all you had to do was locate the sound by ear and say wtf, maybe put in some foam earplugs, go to a different room or leave the building. I do that kind of thing all the time in response to noise.

I don't get it.

Could you sleep through some "sonic attack" that was damaging your hearing?

It seems too weird to be true, but maybe.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

“The reduction in diplomatic presence was made to ensure the safety of our personnel,” said one official. “We maintain diplomatic relations with Cuba, and our work in Cuba will be guided by national security and foreign policy goals of the United States.”

There is now about $300M in American tourist dollars to Cuba on the table in addition to more millions in investment. (Total tourism of $2B likely affected as well)

Restoring more normal relations with Cuba is a good thing. A friend of mine who lives in the Bay area went on a vacation to Cuba a few months ago with a tour group. Said it was a good deal, and he'd recommend it to anyone.

Originally Posted by Steve

I understood that the Cuban government welcomed the re-establishment of connections with the US. Why would they want to cause this disruption?

I've got the same question.

Originally Posted by dann

Come on, you really can’t expect decent US American diplomats to enjoy staying in a third-world hellhole like Cuba!

Given some of the third world places my sister lived when she worked for the State Department ... yes, I do.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by dann

Me too! But I have an even harder time believing that this is the emission of a super-sonic weapon (or even listening device) targeted at U.S. diplomats in order to make them deaf (or inadvertently rendering them so).

Quite obviously it could not have been supersonic if embassy personnel were able to hear and record the sound using traditional devices.

Originally Posted by calebprime

There may have been other elements to the sound, but if that 8k was there, all you had to do was locate the sound by ear and say wtf, maybe put in some foam earplugs, go to a different room or leave the building.

There are; the original AP report said that this published bit was an excerpt - that according to the State Department investigators there were several recordings, that featured multi-tonal sounds with characteristics that differed from recording to recording, but that all of them had this particular element in common.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Quite obviously it could not have been supersonic if embassy personnel were able to hear and record the sound using traditional devices.

Some embassy personnel - if this is a real, actual recording of the alleged attacks. Others didn't hear (or record) a thing.

[dann]

New audio adds to mystery of attacks on US diplomats (CNN, Oct. 14, 2017)

[Alphaba]

Originally Posted by dann

Yes, please focus! And let us know if it encourages us to commit ritual satanic abuse if you play it backwards!

OK, I did exactly that, to focus, in focusing on a shorter, more accurately representative sample of 2.31 seconds of duration:



Then in magnifying the "size" [Taille] of the frequency spectrum from 1024 to 65536 [changing Audacity's language from French to English on the fly had a funny effect, which disappeared after a restart], which gave the following spectrum [screencapped]:





Lots of well defined peaks and harmonics in what appeared as an undifferentiated mound at low "sizes". Both 40Hz and 50Hz AC peaks and their harmonics (until ~240Hz) are present. And also 15, 17, 25, and 30Hz peaks (all those ± 2Hz).

The mound morphed into a fancy fractal.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by calebprime

....

It seems too weird to be true, but maybe.

It seems weird there could be an invisible dragon in my garage, but maybe.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dann

New audio adds to mystery of attacks on US diplomats (CNN, Oct. 14, 2017)

Oh for pity's sake!

It's not like we don't understand the physics of sound, infra or not. Some reporters are so gullible.

These recordings are akin to videos of ghosts and moving lights in the sky.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dann

An old modem?! (youtube)
Also on iflscience.com.
The AP News story
Yes, please focus! And let us know if it encourages us to commit ritual satanic abuse if you play it backwards!

There you go, some sanity in the thread. (Not saying there aren't other sane posts.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Just as I suspected - bad fluorescent light ballasts!

What was this audio recorded with? How much of the spectrum was lost?

This is so stupid. Any of us who have been at this site long enough have seen this phenomenon before in the paranormal section. It's called bullcrap.

Edited by Agatha:

Edited to remove personalisation

[Planigale]

I have a covert recording of what happened to those US diplomats.

The audio signal is at 1:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wwQpACwcoM

We can see typical Cuban technology apparently dating from the 1960's.

ETA
A paper reviewing the issue here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5528197/

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Alphaba

OK, I did exactly that, to focus, in focusing on a shorter, more accurately representative sample of 2.31 seconds of duration:
https://media.joomeo.com/large/59e7fc8ca6576.jpg


Then in magnifying the "size" [Taille] of the frequency spectrum from 1024 to 65536 [changing Audacity's language from French to English on the fly had a funny effect, which disappeared after a restart], which gave the following spectrum [screencapped]:

https://media.joomeo.com/large/59e7ee767ef50.jpg



Lots of well defined peaks and harmonics in what appeared as an undifferentiated mound at low "sizes". Both 40Hz and 50Hz AC peaks and their harmonics (until ~240Hz) are present. And also 15, 17, 25, and 30Hz peaks (all those ± 2Hz).

The mound morphed into a fancy fractal.

Wherever all the "infrasound" and "ghost" absurdity came from I don't know; I wasn't aware that anyone anywhere was proposing that. But as for this noise - which is obviously a quite real thing - it really sounds to me like it does have a similar character to other noises produced by devices that are designed intentionally to irritate; i.e for crowd control, or by commercial ships to repel attackers and protesters, that kind of thing.

Let's assume for the moment that it's not. What might it be then instead?

With respect to dann, it doesn't sound like any modem I've ever personally heard or have been able to find a sample of online. I suppose it's possible it might be some other kind of digital data mode. I'm familiar with some of these and have been trying to match it, but it just doesn't sound quite like any I personally know about - closest it comes is maybe PSK31 - but it doesn't seem to contain any of the "inflection" that common digital modes have. Plus you run into the problem that you actually need an HF receiver to pick them up and turn them into audible sound; it's not like someone would be "accidentally" physically hearing a PSK31 or RTTY signal because of a chance building arrangement or a badly made speaker component picking it up and resonating.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

...But as for this noise - which is obviously a quite real thing ...

No, we don't know that. There is no consistent 'noise' that has been detected. There's a mish-mash from nothing to some static or whining that for all we know came from the recording devices.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It seems weird there could be an invisible dragon in my garage, but maybe.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No, we don't know that. There is no consistent 'noise' that has been detected. There's a mish-mash from nothing to some static or whining that for all we know came from the recording devices.

We agree. I simply lean toward the Trump admin. exaggerating this, as opposed to the mass hysteria explanation.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No, we don't know that. There is no consistent 'noise' that has been detected. There's a mish-mash from nothing to some static or whining that for all we know came from the recording devices.

According to the AP, the specific sound that's been published occurred in several different recordings.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Alphaba

OK, I did exactly that, to focus, in focusing on a shorter, more accurately representative sample of 2.31 seconds of duration:
(…)

Then in magnifying the "size" [Taille] of the frequency spectrum from 1024 to 65536 [changing Audacity's language from French to English on the fly had a funny effect, which disappeared after a restart], which gave the following spectrum [screencapped]:

Lots of well defined peaks and harmonics in what appeared as an undifferentiated mound at low "sizes". Both 40Hz and 50Hz AC peaks and their harmonics (until ~240Hz) are present. And also 15, 17, 25, and 30Hz peaks (all those ± 2Hz).

The mound morphed into a fancy fractal.

I have no idea what that signifies! Most of it seems to be way beyond the range of human hearing, so what would be the point of it? To annoy dolphins or scare away bats?!

[dann]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

These recordings are akin to videos of ghosts and moving lights in the sky.

50 years ago ghosts were used as an excuse to escalate a war in Southeast Asia:
Gulf of Tonkin incident
Tonkin Gulf Ghost
Tonkin Gulf and the Escalation of the Vietnam War