Merged: US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[dann]

After Fox News has had to give up on its Stop-the-Steal conspiracy theory, it may have picked up where CBS 60 Minutes left off last year: the 'syndrome attacks.
In the new conspiracy theory, physicist James Benford has gone full-blown conspiracy nut.
Fox anchor Brett Baier, 'Adam' (Patient Zero), physicist James Benford and Edl Schamiloglu (electrical and computer engineering).
From the video:

Quote:

(...)
Bair: Last month U.S. intelligence agencies released an assessment on Havana Syndrome, concluding, quote: "It is very unlikely a foreign adversary is responsible." The report adds, quote: "Intelligence community agencies assess that symptoms reported by U.S. personnel were probably the result of factors that did not involve a foreign adversary, such as preexisting conditions, conventional illnesses and environmental factors."

'Adam': The report was kind of a travesty. I wasn't interviewed for the CIA report.
If it was that comprehensive, you'd think they'd want to go back to Patient Zero and ask questions.

Baier: You feel like you were at the back end of some kind of attack.

Baier: They have reason to be justified with that feeling?

Benford: Oh yes, first of all, it's clear they were attacked. And secondly the explanation from the government seem to be planned to obscure the real origins and deny any foreign capability. That is simply not the case.
(...)
Baier: Why do you think, knowing what you know, would this report come out and say that there is no credible evidence that a foreign actor [Benford laughs] is behind the Havana Syndrome? Or, quote: "it's very unlikely."

Benford: That's laughable. The Russians, in particular, have specialized in compact systems. They have published in the open literature reports to the effects of microwaves on laboratory animals such as mice. And they have shown that these effects are parallels to those that we see in Havana Syndrome.
What they did is radiate mice under repetitive short, very short, pulses, and then they find the effect on mice that they are measurable and permanent. I think there's a really good case that Russian capability could be used by them and it could be used by anybody else who reads the open literature as well.

Baier: Everything that you've said makes this sentence, "There is no credible evidence that a foreign adversary has a weapon or a collection mechanism capable of causing these sensory effects, a deliberate cause is unlikely."
Everything that you've said. It sounds like that is just complete garbage.

Benford: It is false. That statement is false and falsifiable.
(...)
Baier: The State Department asked the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine to review Havana syndrome cases. In 2020 the Academy assessed that, quote: "Pulsed Radiofrequency energy appears to be the most plausible mechanism to explain those illnesses."

Schamiloglu: If you have sufficient power and you repetitively insult (?) the victim. Then yes, that is my opinion as to what happened.

Baier: University of New Mexico professor Edl Schamiloglu sides with Benford pointing to the former Soviet Union that developed this kind of technology needed to deliver repetitively pulsed power.
(...)
Baier: Dr. Benford has a theory: You feel confident that the government is covering this up?

Benford: It sure sounds like it to me, it looks like it. I think their motives could be that they want to cover it up because an attack on American embassy personnel is an attack on the United States. It's essentially an act of war.

Baier: Reports of Havana Syndrome cases have tapered off.

'Adam': The latest ones I've heard about have been DoD cases, and those were towards the end of the year. Also it doesn't help when you have the agency putting out reports calling you crazy. So no one in their right mind would come forward.
(...)
Havana syndrome: Foreign adversaries' microwave weapons capabilities explained by physicist (Fox News, April 18, 2023)

So according to James Benford, U.S. embassy personnel was actually attacked with pulsed microwave weapons, and the U.S. government is deliberately covering up an act of war!

And 'Adam' claims that the intelligence reports have called him and other 'syndrome' sufferers crazy, which never happened. On the contrary, they have been adamant that 'the symptoms are real' to the extent where I am beginning to think that it might have been better if the reports had been less euphemistic.

I have no idea why Schamiloglu talks about 'repetitive insults.' He seems to be a native speaker of English, so I am not sure if I can assume that he meant assaults.
Insults sounds a little too Pythonesqe, in my opinion:

Quote:

Vercotti: Doug (takes a drink) Well, I was terrified. Everyone was terrified of Doug. I've seen grown men pull their own heads off rather than see Doug. Even Dinsdale was frightened of Doug.
2nd Interviewer: What did he do?
Vercotti: He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, pathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious.
Presenter: By a combination of violence and sarcasm, the Piranha brothers by February 1966 controlled London and the Southeast of England.

It might explain why the alleged concussions were not only mild but even immaculate.

[dann]

It was past my bedtime when the webinar with Robert Baloh yesterday (very early today, Copenhagen time) took place, but I hope that it will become accessible on YouTube.
Some past lectures can past lectures from the Center for Neuropolitics can be accessed on YouTube.

[dann]

Quote:

Buried in the Pentagon’s sprawling budget request is an ask for at least $36 million to respond to Havana syndrome, the mysterious symptoms alleged by U.S. spies and diplomats.
(...)
The amount represents an increase of $2.1 million over the previous fiscal year
(...)
The $2.1 million comes in addition to the AHI’s program baseline funding of $21.2 million, which “ensures that individuals affected by anomalous health incidents … receive timely and comprehensive health care and treatment.”
(...)
The Defense Department is also requesting an additional $15 million for research that will “further examine why AHIs occur, who is at-risk, and what the short- and long-term health effects are.”
(...)
The legislation, called the Helping American Victims Afflicted by Neurological Attacks Act, provided $30 million for victims.
The $36 million now being considered does not include AHI funds allocated to the intelligence community, which operates on a secret budget.
Pentagon Requests $36 Million for Havana Syndrome - New military budget would fund research as well as treatment for “anomalous health incidents.” (The Intercept, April 20, 2023)

It should be pretty clear by now why AHIs occur (the State Department scares people), who's at risk (the people whom the State Department scares), and what the short- and long-term health effects are (inability to work as long as they continue to believe that they were exposed to a raygun attack).

[dann]

Based on the article from The Intercept:

Quote:

The government convened a panel of experts in 2020 who originally surmised that the diplomats were attacked by some kind of microwave weapon — a theory that has since come under fire. The lack of evidence across the board for some kind of physical phenomenon or weapon has led a growing number of scientists to seriously look at the possibility that Havana Syndrome is a psychogenic illness.
“It is just a totally incredible explanation for what happened to these diplomats,” claims University of Pennsylvania bioengineer Kenneth Foster. “It’s just not possible. The idea that someone could beam huge amounts of microwave energy at people and not have it be obvious defies credibility.”
Pentagon Requests $36 Million for 'Havana Syndrome' Treatment and Investigations (PJMedia, April 20, 2023)

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by dann

Based on the article from The Intercept:

Quote:

It would be grossly inaccurate to claim it’s all in the heads of victims. Havana Syndrome is real with real symptoms. But the power of suggestion is such that it’s entirely possible that psychogenic factors play an as-yet-unknown role in making people ill.

Um, no - its role is well-known.

Quote:

As Dr. Robert Bartholomew, an expert in psychogenic illnesses, theorizes, “By counseling future Embassy staff over the perceived threat, an expectation of illness was created, and with it, a frame through which future sounds and symptoms were to be interpreted. This is a classic set-up for an outbreak of mass psychogenic illness.”

It shouldn’t surprise us that the Biden administration totally blew the investigation. They rejected information that didn’t jibe with their preconceived notions of what Havana Syndrome is. They actively stifled opposing viewpoints. The result is that whatever chance we had of figuring out what happened to our diplomats and their families has been lost.

'Totally blew' the investigation? I think not. They initially made the mistake of listening to people who were supposed to be experts, that's all. It certainly does not mean that we lost any chance to figure out what happened. We know what happened. It's right there in the article!

Quote:

The Pentagon’s budget contains $36 million to continue studying Havana Syndrome.

Not a lot of money. That's 0.004% of the DoD budget for 2024.

[dann]

Much like with the (also imaginary) Iraqi WMDs 20 years ago, I suppose we'll refer to the 'Havana syndrome' rayguns using the acronym DEW from now on.
Mark S. Zaid on Twitter, April 21, 2023

[dann]

Originally Posted by dann

I have no idea why Schamiloglu talks about 'repetitive insults.' He seems to be a native speaker of English, so I am not sure if I can assume that he meant assaults.
Insults sounds a little too Pythonesqe, in my opinion

It has been pointed out to me that the word insult has a meaning I wasn't aware of:

Quote:

In medical terms, an insult is the cause of some kind of physical or mental injury. For example, a burn on the skin (the injury) may be the result of a thermal, chemical, radioactive, or electrical event (the insult). Likewise sepsis and trauma are examples of foreign insults, and encephalitis, multiple sclerosis, and brain tumors are examples of insults to the brain. Insults may also be categorized as either genetic or environmental.
Insult (medical) (Wikipedia)

[dann]

Mark Zaid thread:

Quote:

1/Official USG position is no evidence of directed energy weapons responsible for anomalous health incidents suffered by my clients & countless others.
Yet @DefenseIntel is publicly soliciting white papers. Why do so for threat that does not exist!!???
https://dia.mil/Business/Needipedia/
Mark S. Zaid (on Twitter, April 21, 2023)

With Robert Bartholomew's response.

An answer to Mark Zaid's question might be, 'Why solicit white papers if evidence already exists?'
In his third tweet, Zaid writes about "lasers, electromagnetic pulse (EMP), high powered microwave (HPM), and energetic ballistic weapons." Nobody has denied the existence of those, but they are a far cry from anything causing the alleged "anomalous health incidents suffered by my clients & countless others," so it seems to be true that there is still "no evidence of directed energy weapons responsible for anomalous health incidents."

[dann]

An announcement about the Anderson & Entous podcast series on page 13 of AFSA's The Foreign Service Journal, April 2023, is very careful about not calling the 'Havana Syndrome' an attack. Instead it says:

Quote:

The producers of this eight-part series travelled to Havana, Vienna and Washington, D.C., to interview some of the White House officials, CIA operatives, and Foreign Service members who were afflicted. They came away with tragic personal stories about the effects of the unexplained illness on the lives and careers of these officials.
Podcast of the Month: VICE World News' Havana Syndrome (AFSA)

It even adds: "The appearance of a particular site or podcast is for information only and does not constitute an endorsement.

I don't know why they still call it mysterious and unexplained.

[dann]

Quote:

‘A BETRAYAL’ — “‘Knife in the back’: Havana Syndrome victims dispute report dismissing their cases,” by El Nuevo Herald’s Nora Gámez Torres: “The Miami Herald spoke to three former CIA officials and two Canadian diplomats affected by the strange incidents who said they are convinced they were targeted while serving their countries abroad. And all said that a recent U.S. intelligence report blaming their ailments on pre-existing medical conditions or environmental factors is an attempt to whitewash the Havana Syndrome affair, likely due to political considerations. ... ‘A betrayal,’ [former CIA intelligence officer Marc] Polymeropoulos said of the U.S. intelligence assessment published in March.”
Florida Playbook: Peninsual and Beyond (Politico, April 27, 2023)

It links to a (paywalled) article in Miami Herald yesterday.

[dann]

In post 1,752, I mentioned that TI Len Ber had been interviewed by John Kiriakou on RT Whistleblowers, and in post 1,828 I commented on RT's attitude to the 'syndrome': How it had shifted from blank denial that Russia had anything to do with it and ridiculing the U.S. governent for believing that the 'syndrome' was real, i.e. an attack with rayguns, to later instead blaming the USA and CIA for having those rayguns and using them on its own citizens, an idea that is popular in the community of Targeted Individuals (TI).

In a new article, John Kiriakou makes his position clear: He doesn't believe in the attack idea, which has upset TIs like Len Ber. Instead, Kiriakou seems to have bought into Beatrice Golomb's ideas of electromagnetic hypersensitivity:

Quote:

Gang-stalking. Extremely low frequency radiation. Voice to Skull (V2K) technology. None of these were terms the author had ever heard of during his 15 years at the C.I.A.
(...)
I believe that Havana Syndrome is real. It’s now well-documented, with MRIs in many cases showing documentable traumatic brain injuries. I have no idea if it is a result of something called a “Directed Energy Weapon.” I don’t know if there even is any such thing as a Directed Energy Weapon.
People whom I respect and trust — who do understand the advanced technology that something like a Directed Energy Weapon would require — tell me that even if such weapons existed, which they can’t confirm, they wouldn’t be able to “follow” a victim as that person moved from location to location.
It’s possible, they argue, that, instead, some victims of Havana Syndrome are especially sensitive to radio waves.
JOHN KIRIAKOU: Havana Syndrome — Paranoia or Reality? (ConsortiumNews, April 28, 2023)

He doesn't name any names of the people whom he 'respects and trusts', but my guess is that Beatrice Golomb may be one of them. The other experts who believe that actual brain damage (and not stress-related or psychogenic brain 'anomalies') was caused by an external source all seem to believe that it was caused by actual attacks with DEWs.

[dann]

This will be interesting:

Quote:

This week, OTM correspondent Micah Loewinger speaks with Entous, Anderson, and Bartholomew to try and make sense of the conflicting theories — and understand the true toll of the mystery for all involved.
The Unending Mystery of Havana Syndrome (WNYC Studios, April 28, 2023)

I doesn't say when, but I assume the podcast with the debate (?), conversation (?) or interviews (?) will appear here at some point.

[dann]

The podcast mentioned in post 1,892 has now been released:

Quote:

In late 2016, American diplomats in Havana, Cuba started hearing a mysterious buzzing sound, followed by debilitating symptoms. On this week’s On the Media, why the government now disputes theories that it was a secret Russian weapon. Plus, what the electric hum of your refrigerator and the uncanny hearing ability of pigeons reveal about the world we live in.

1. Adam Entous, staff writer at The New York Times, Jon Lee Anderson, staff writer at The New Yorker, and Robert Bartholomew, sociologist and author of Havana Syndrome: Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story Behind the Embassy Mystery and Hysteria, on the investigation into the mysterious affliction that spread across the globe. Listen.
Boom! The Unending Mystery of Havana Syndrome (WNYC Studios, April 28, 2023)

When I was listening to the podcast, I was confused by the two segments following the one about the 'syndrome' because they were also about weird impacts of sound, and I was wondering what they had to do with the syndrome, which turned out to be: nothing!
But the two segments about the electric hum and carrier pigeons are very interesting in their own right.

It's a good podcast, but I was a little disappointed that it was not a debate between Anderson, Entous and Bartholomew. It is almost as if the representatives of the attack idea, be they 'experts', 'syndrome' sufferers, lawyers and/or journalists, are doing their utmost to avoid public confrontations with their critics - like in the fairly recent panel discussion at the Spy Museum mentioned in post 1,790 with Marc Polymeropoulos, Mark Zaid and Nicky Woolf.

Interesting fact: Lawyer Mark Zaid, who represents many 'syndrome' sufferers, is a proud active sponsor of the Spy Museum!
By the way, there is now a transcript of that panel discussion from a bonus episode of the Project Brazen podcast series: Bonus: Live from the International Spy Museum (April 11, 2023)

[dann]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Um, no - its role is well-known.

It (i.e. mass psychogenic illness) is indeed!

Quote:

'Totally blew' the investigation? I think not. They initially made the mistake of listening to people who were supposed to be experts, that's all. It certainly does not mean that we lost any chance to figure out what happened. We know what happened. It's right there in the article!

Yes, we do know what happened. In this thread, most of us have been pretty sure what happened since late-2017, and the analysis of the cricket sounds made it pretty obvious. And at this point, it is wrong to say "that the Biden administration totally blew the investigation," but as you say, "It's right there in the article!", i.e. the article isn't talking about here and now.
So let's take a look at the timeline:

1) The Bartholomew quotation is from his article in Skeptic, Havana Syndrome Skepticism (Dec 10, 2020), so it has nothing to do with the Biden administration.
2) However, Bartholomew's article was updated with a postscript on April 5, 2021, The Biden CIA Is Re-Examining ‘Havana Syndrome’, which mentions that "the Biden Administration has named a new head of the ‘Havana Syndrome’ Task Force. Pamela Spratlen ..." A smart move, but we know that she didn't last long: Diplomat overseeing 'Havana Syndrome' response is out after 6 months (NBC News, Sep 23, 2021)
3) We also know that she was not the only one involved with the 'syndrome' investigation who was discharged.
4) Trump had used the 'syndrome' as an excuse to roll back the USA-Cuba rapproachment, and the tightening of the blockade had an immediate impact on Cubans, which was exacerbated by the pandemic's impact on international travel. It left Cuba extremely vulnerable when the country's pandemic restrictions were no longer enough to keep the virus at bay. The lack of syringes and chemicals at a critical moment delayed Cuba's otherwise impressive vaccination campaign and the lack of medicinal oxygen for the infected resulted in a skyrocketing COVID-19 death toll on the island in the summer and fall of 2021. Cubans won't forget that anytime soon. It also led to unrest. An ISF thread about that was started on July 11, 2021.
5) Before he was elected, Biden had promised to roll back Trump's tightening of the blockade, but his response to the exacerbated crisis in Cuba wasn't to help out with syringes and medicinal oxygen. On the contrary, he tightened the blockade even more. Cubans won't forget that either.
6) But the Cuban C-19 death toll was not the only thing that skyrocketed. So did the number of 'Havana Syndrome' cases. The number increased from 200 to 1,000 to 1,700. It didn't really stop until the release of CIA's interim report in January 2022. And it didn't end till the ODNI report in 2023 - if it has actually ended.
7) The rapid rise in the number of 'syndrome' cases was caused by "the power of suggestion": the State Department, the CIA, the DoD and other agencies warning their employees about the (extremely ordinary) symptoms that might allegedly have been caused by an attack using invisible rays. At the same time both Blinken and Burns threatened Moscow, telling Putin that they considered it to be an act of war!
8) At this point, the 'syndrome' has spread to civilians, too, helped along by the doctors who apper to have been peddling 'syndrome' diagnoses to ordinary citizens like Len Ber, whom I've mentioned a couple of times in the thread (see posts 1,682 and 1,752). At this point, the former MD has become a fan of Robert F. Kennedy Jr's antivaxxer ideas and is applying for disability.

So, yes, we do indeed know what happened, but it took the Biden administration a long time to get there, and it hasn't yet made up for most of the mistakes that were made, and I don't see it even trying to seriously explain to Americans what happened and why they shouldn't fear becoming victims of a V2K attack.

And Trump's (and Biden's own) tightening of the blockade against Cuba is still in place.

Quote:

Not a lot of money. That's 0.004% of the DoD budget for 2024.

Yes, that's a very cheap price to pay for keeping the 'syndrome' alive!

[dann]

Originally Posted by dann

This will be interesting:

Quote:

This week, OTM correspondent Micah Loewinger speaks with Entous, Anderson, and Bartholomew to try and make sense of the conflicting theories — and understand the true toll of the mystery for all involved.
The Unending Mystery of Havana Syndrome (WNYC Studios, April 28, 2023)

Robert Bartholomew about the WNYC podcast:

Quote:

Just listened to the podcast - one thing left out - my observation that Adam Entous got the story wrong for years and is likely embarrassed by that and subconsciously would desperately like it to be real. If Adam Entoius is such a great investigative reporter how come he conspicuously failed to interview skeptics like myself and Bob Baloh? Maybe it's because we would crash the party with facts. We don't need to see the patients - we can read the bad studies that were done on them - and those 2 JAMA studies were examples of poor science.

[dann]

I have mentioned the case of the Iranian schoolgirls a couple of times, most recently in 1,833.

Some of the confusion in this case appears to have been due to meaning getting lost in translation. For instance, when ordinary stink bombs, which would have contributed to the confusion, were referred to as chemical attacks:

Quote:

The ministry said that five elements, including stink bombs, pepper spray, odorous agents that cause panic, anti-security objectives, and agents that cause mass hysteria, were involved in causing or triggering illness at various schools around the country.
Based on the ministry’s field and laboratory results, “malingering” was one of the proven causes of the occurrences, with the goal of fun, skipping lectures and examinations, and, in a few cases, fomenting unrest and riots.
The statement added, “Toxic substances have not been distributed in any of the nation’s schools, but non-toxic agents that have caused panic have been used accidentally or purposefully in some reported settings.”
No signs of toxic substances discovered in schools: Intelligence Ministry (Tehran Times, April 29, 2023)

It shouldn't come as a surprise that any attempt to simply explain what happened in Iran runs the risk of being condemned as apologetics for Iran's Islamic state. Like in the case of Cuba, Iran is the enemy, so claiming that Iran didn't poison schoolgirls is not a good story.

[dann]

It is was not an easy job to define what exactly qualifies as the kind of injury to the brain that makes you eligible for payments according to the HAVANA act:

Quote:

In implementing this definition of “qualifying injury to the brain,” the Department adopts the standard set forth by the Department of State in its January 25, 2023, regulations implementing the HAVANA Act (see 88 FR 4722). With regard to these standards, this definition accounts for a variety of observable impacts to an individual, including either a concussion, a penetrating injury, or absent either of those, the ability of an appropriately certified physician to review one of a variety of forms of medical imaging evidence indicating permanent alterations in brain function. This will ensure there is some (!) documented evidence of impact to the brain, while minimally circumscribing what that impact entails.
Implementation of HAVANA Act of 2021 - A Rule by the Commerce Department on 04/19/2023 (Federal Register - The Daily Journal of the United States Government, April 19, 2023)

[dann]

Originally Posted by dann

It shouldn't come as a surprise that any attempt to simply explain what happened in Iran runs the risk of being condemned as apologetics for Iran's Islamic state. Like in the case of Cuba, Iran is the enemy, so claiming that Iran didn't poison schoolgirls is not a good story.

Robert Bartholomew's article about the Iranian MPI case in Psychology Today, Psychology and the Mystery of the "Poisoned" Schoolgirls, appears to have fallen victim to this attitude.
The article was mentioned here:

Quote:

A new article has raised speculations about the psychogenic origin of the mysterious serial poisonings in Iranian schools, saying reports on the incidents should be viewed with caution.
The article written by American medical sociologist Robert Bartholomew and published Saturday in Psychology Today magazine drew a parallel between the poisonings in Iran and those recorded in Afghanistan and the occupied West Bank in 2009-2016 and 1983, respectively.
Iran mysterious serial poisonings may have psychogenic origin: Experts (PressTV.ir, March 5, 2023)

Real skeptics (see post 1,833), however, don't seem to (and shouldn't) be afraid of delving into the case instead of being ruled by bias or fears of what their audience may think:

Quote:

Reports of mass poisonings of Iranian schoolgirls are making headlines around the world, but look beneath the headlines and an a curious pattern emerges: no culprit or chemical agent has been identified after 3 months, no one has died (contrary to rumors), blood tests are unremarkable, the victims are nearly all Islamic girls who recover rapidly and are living under extraordinary stress during a period of political turmoil. Nearly identical outbreaks involving claims of mass poisonings of Islamic girls have happened many times in the past and in-depth investigations published in prominent mainstream medical journals have concluded they were the result of mass psychogenic illness.
The Untold Story behind the Iranian Schoolgirl Poisoning Hysteria (MythVision on YouTube, Mar 9, 2023 - 1:15:05)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Also in mainstream NZ media: Robert Bartholomew: Caution warranted over ‘poisoned’ Iranian schoolgirls (NZ Herald, Mar 22, 2023)
In response to this: Kat Eghdamian: Iranian schoolgirls need support, not gaslighting (NZ Herald, Mar 16, 2023)

When you accuse somebody of gaslighting, you can expect your own gaslighting to be believed if people prefer gaslighting to the truth. And it is easier still if you can pretend to take the side of the alleged victims. Journalists and doctors do it ad nauseam when they pretend to side with the victims of 'Havana syndrome'. The 'syndrome' sufferers may yearn for confirmation, but confirming their delusion is as helpful as confirming the beliefs of people who pay psychics to communicate with their deceased loved ones.

[dann]

Len Ber published a new article yesterday: The US Government Engages in Hate Speech Toward Citizens Identified as Targeted Individuals (Len Ber MD on Havana Syndrome, Substack, May 3, 2023).

He referenced this article from March:

Quote:

The government resorts to labeling plaintiffs claims as absurd, fantastical, and conspiratorial in the historic lawsuit filed by Targeted Justice and 18 plaintiffs (Positively NOT a legal opinion)
“In light of the unfounded, fantastical allegations.., this case should be resolved by dispositive motion at the earliest stage of the case.”
“…Defendants expect this case - which involves baseless allegations and conspiracy theories - to be resolved … at the earliest stage and have not moved to transfer venue.”

These statements addressed to Judge Tipton by the attorney representing three government agencies named as Defendants in the Targeted Justice lawsuit felt like a slap in the face. I will not review the particulars of the claims, I am not a lawyer, nor a legal expert. I will speak on my behalf, as the first plaintiff in the said lawsuit.
I consider these statements condescending, dismissive, and ultimately, a form of name calling.
Condescension - Defendant’s Strategy Revealed (Len Ber MD on Havana Syndrome, Substack, March 23, 2023)

I don't agree with the TIs about anything, but I can see why they are upset about being discriminated against: If they have the same symptoms as the AHI-afflicted government workers, who receive benefits in accordance with the HAVANA Act, and if those symptoms are the only thing that's real in this story about alleged brain damage caused by alleged DEW attacks, then I don't see why the symptoms of only one of those two groups, the AHI victims and the TIs, are recognized as legit.

Will the ferret-brain experiments make it possible to distinguish between the symptoms of AHI victims and the symptoms of TIs who have allegedly received confirmation from Drs. Michael Hoffer and James Giordano that they also suffer from 'Havana Syndrome'?

[dann]

Originally Posted by dann

In a new article, John Kiriakou makes his position clear: He doesn't believe in the attack idea, which has upset TIs like Len Ber. Instead, Kiriakou seems to have bought into Beatrice Golomb's ideas of electromagnetic hypersensitivity:

Len Ber, who insists that he is the victim of DEW attacks, is upset that Kiriakou has rejected the idea of attacks:

Quote:

Havana Syndrome is real. Whether it's a "directed energy weapon" is another issue.
https://johnkiriakou.substack.com/p/...=twitter&sd=pf
John Kiriakou (Twitter, April 27, 2023)

Quote:

Wow John out of all responses to your #HavanaSyndrome piece you chose to quote a tweet about neural implants on your show political @SputnikMisfits and ignore all the substantive responses. If I didn’t know you were well-intended, I’d suspected it was an attempt to belittle.
Len Ber MD (Twitter, May 2, 2023)

Quote:

My God, Len. I'm happy to air this on Twitter in front of 50K people if you prefer. The thing that you refuse to accept is that a LOT of people who believe they are victims of Havana Syndrome are actually mentally ill. It's well documented. There are no "neural implants."
John Kiriakou (Twitter, May 2, 2023)

Quote:

John, you keep moving the goal post. There are people who are diagnosed with #HavanaSyndrome from domestic attacks (!) and you are not making their fight easier. Someone who stood up 2 his own government because it was the right thing to do, u really missed the mark on this one.
Len Ber MD (Twitter, May 2, 2023)

Quote:

Wrong, Len. It's you who missed the mark. You legitimize every nut in a tinfoil hat and make it harder for those who really suffer from Havana Syndrome. I tried to explain HS on my show. You telling mentally ill people that they're all victims of a govt program is a disservice.John Kiriakou (Twitter, May 2, 2023)

Quote:

John. Honestly, did you miss the part where I said diagnosed? Civilians DIAGNOSED with Havana Syndrome attacked domestically exist. I am one of them. If I learned anything from this experience, it’s humility. It’s a good quality, John.
Len Ber MD (Twitter, May 2, 2023)

Quote:

I kinda question your “humility” when you feel compelled to hash this out on Twitter rather than in a phone call or via email.
John Kiriakou (Twitter, May 2, 2023)

It gets worse from there when another TI, allegedly "(diagnosed by Hoffer)" takes over.

I am not sure what Kiriakou means when he writes, "those who really suffer from Havana Syndrome," but since he has dismissed the idea of DEWs, as mentioned in post 1,891, I assume that he means EHS sufferers (Wikipedia).

[dann]

Len Ber is convinced that the DEWs that he believes he is being attacked with have also left "markings on the glass closet door" at his residence:

Quote:

Sharing for the first time. High power pulsed microwave weapon permanently changes translucent properties of glass. This video loop shows circular and horizontal markings on the glass closet door at my residence (not condensation, not on the surface). #evidence #HavanaSyndrome
Len Ber MD (Twitter, April 29, 2023)

He doesn't seem to have asked the manufacturer of his glass door how to remove such markings.
I don't know who made or sold this particular door, but one manufacturer of windows and doors writes:

Quote:

CAN SUCTION CUP MARKS BE REMOVED?
We recommend cleaning the glass surface with original plain white toothpaste (not gel), Soft Scrub® cleaner, or a glass cleaner to remove contaminants from the glass.
Circular Marks on Glass Surface (Andersen Window & Door Help Center)

[dann]

Quote:

Even the CIA has debunked “Havana syndrome” — the belief that hypersonic weapons are making American diplomats sick — but diehards in the media and Congress won’t let it go.
Havana Syndrome Can’t Be Cured (Jacobin, Issue 49, May 3, 2023)

If taken literally, I don't think the title is quite true. I think that the preventative measure against side effects mentioned in post 1,878 would also help cure the 'syndrome':

Originally Posted by dann

This article doesn't mention the 'Havana syndrome' at all. It also doesn't mention mass psychogenic illness (MPI). It only popped up in a Google search because it links to two Bartholomew articles about the 'syndrome' and MPI.

Quote:

The impact of the media coverage was sudden. In the five weeks after the first news report in August 2021, the reporting rate of chest discomfort had increased by 190 percent
(...)
Research shows that knowing about the nocebo effect means you are less likely to experience it, so you’ve protected yourself from unnecessary side effects just by reading this article.
Protect yourself from side effects just by reading this article (Newsroom.co.nz, April 16, 2023)

The article is mainly about Covid vaccinations and the nocebo effect, but it should accompany every statement saying that the symptoms of 'Havana syndrome' are real even though the foreign adversaries with rayguns aren't. The 'syndrome' symptoms are real the same way self-reported myocarditis symptoms after Covid vaccinations are real.

Understanding the nocebo effect may also cure the 'Havana syndrome'. However, one of the problems caused by the 'syndrome' is that it exacerbates the resistance to the understanding needed for the cure to start.

[dann]

Some right-wing media finds it very hard to let go of the 'syndrome':

Quote:

Patrushev is also the likely ringleader behind a number of so-called "Havana Syndrome" cases involving neurological ailments suffered by U.S. government and military personnel. The U.S. intelligence community has compelling evidence to suggest Russia's operation of nanosecond-pulsed radio frequency devices is responsible for some "Havana Syndrome" ailments. In a willful failure of analysis, however, the intelligence community has decided a whitewash is preferable to harder truths. The harder truth is that identifying Russian culpability for some cases would lead to a major political crisis with Moscow.
Putin's top hawk claims US wants Eastern Europe, in case the Yellowstone volcano erupts (Washington Examiner, May 3, 2023)

I don't remember seeing it called "nanosecond-pulsed radio frequency devices" before. When I google it, the only link I get is to the article above.

[dann]

Quote:

Travel to Cuba restrictions were intensified in the Trump era following the alleged “sonic attacks” in 2017 when the U.S. government reduced its embassy staff in Cuba to a minimum and discouraged U.S. citizens from traveling to the island, arguing that “they could run the risk of being victims of sonic attacks.”
Such attacks were never proven and, on the contrary, both the scientific and intelligence communities and the State Department itself agree that the so-called “Havana Syndrome” (despite cases having been reported in other countries) is not the result of a campaign led by an enemy of Washington.
A spokesperson said last March that “there is no common denominator” among those affected: some cases can be explained by “natural causes,” others by “environmental effects” and some have yet to be determined.
In fact, since the beginning of January the diplomatic headquarters in Havana reopened without incident. In its Travel Alerts classification system, the United States government currently considers Cuba at Level 2; suggests greater caution in Cuba because “petty crime is a threat to tourists in Cuba.”
Far from deviating from Trump’s hard line, during Biden’s term measures have also been [url=https://oncubanews.com/cuba-ee-uu/estados-unidos-exige-visa-de-ingreso-a-extranjeros-que-han-viajado-previamente-a-cuba/]reinforced[/hilite] to make it difficult for travel to the island and not only for U.S. citizens.
In September 2022, the obligation was activated for foreign citizens who wish to visit the United States to request an entry visa if they have previously traveled to Cuba. A stab in the side of Cuba’s plans to encourage European markets.
Cuban entrepreneurs address Biden: “We ask again that you listen to us” (OnCubaNews, May 6, 2023)

I wasn't aware of that new visa rule for foreigners, but it explains why I was told that I had to request an entry visa for the USA the last time I was booking a plane to Cuba even though I had no intention to visit the USA but would be at a U.S. airport in transit.

[dann]

Quote:

When government agencies today state that “foreign adversaries” were not to blame for diplomats suddenly suffering from debilitating illnesses, we might find it understandable that some would be dissatisfied and believe that officials are obfuscating an unsavory truth — as if saying, “Nothing to see here!”
In modern democracies, governments tout transparency and the people come to expect it. The Havana syndrome mystery suggests, however, that any hint of secrecy spurs distrust and anxiety, and history shows that when governments unveil the entire truth, it is almost never as terrible as what comes to mind when imaginations run wild.
Havana Syndrome upsets so many Americans because of the secrecy involved (Washington Post, May 3, 2023)

Many of the alleged experts who claim that “foreign adversaries” are to blame for the 'Havana syndrome' sometimes refer to secret knowledge that they are not allowed to reveal, even though they would find a way to leak it if they actually did have evidence of “foreign adversaries” with rayguns targeting U.S. diplomats and secret agents - in Havana and elsewhere.
The secrecy is what allows these people to continue to hint at alleged evidence of an attack with Directed Energy Weapons, which would have been made public if it actually existed.

[dann]

"The Havana syndrome mystery suggests, however, that any hint of secrecy spurs distrust and anxiety, and history shows that when governments unveil the entire truth, it is almost never as terrible as what comes to mind when imaginations run wild." (WP, May 3, 2023)

This is probably one of the very few things that I can agree with the TIs about.
The entire truth should be unveiled.
Imaginations have been running wild over this since 2016-17, and the only way to put a stop to that is to let the truth come out.

[dann]

A couple of posts about the 'syndrome' and the media from the thread Does it require intelligence to be a skeptic?: posts 83 and 85.

[dann]

A podcast conversation with James Giordano:

Searching for the Cause of Havana Syndrome, a Mysterious Illness Targeting the Intelligence Community, with Dr. James Giordano (Causes or Cures, Mar 21, 2023)

It's the same old, same old, and I dozed off after he started talking about 'symptoms that can't be faked', which he still seems to think is what mass psychogenic illness is about, so I will have to return to it again.

In spite of finding the interview "great", Len Ber, MD and TI, is disappointed, which he has every right to be. (I mentioned the love-hate relationship in post 1,831):

Quote:

Great conversation! Dr Giordano says all the right words, and yet the fact that there are US citizens (like yours truly) diagnosed with #HavanaSyndrome (by the same experts who diagnosed the 2 dozen of undisputed cases) from domestic attacks (still ongoing!) reliably escapes the conversation. Case in point - Dr Giordano verified my diagnosis and forwarded it to the DOD. Yeah, let’s talk about public health and public safety…
Len Ber MD (Twitter, May 10, 2023)

The next time James Giordano is interviewed, he should be asked about this.

Guys like David Hoffer and James Giordano don't seem to shy away from diagnosing (see post 1,899) Targeted Individuals (Wikipedia) with 'Havana Syndrome', and how could they not if the TIs exhibit the same symptoms as the spies and U.S. embassy workers in Havana? But they don't mention their connection to the TI community in public.

As mentioned in post 1,795, James Giordano insists that the Havana 'Havana Syndrome' is unique and has nothing whatsoever to do with the more than 1,000 other Anomalous Health Incidents in the rest of the world. For all he cares, they may be due to MPI or suggestion or natural or environmental causes, but his precious two dozen Havana cases are unique and genuine and not to be confused with TI delusions even if their symptoms are the same.

I also don't think lawyer Mark Zaid will ever mention the TIs even though he does mention, "double-digit members of the FBI, employees of the FBI, who have been injured in multiple locations inside the United States." (WTKR, Aug 26, 2022). It wouldn't help his cases to do so.

[dann]

Originally Posted by dann

"The Havana syndrome mystery suggests, however, that any hint of secrecy spurs distrust and anxiety, and history shows that when governments unveil the entire truth, it is almost never as terrible as what comes to mind when imaginations run wild." (WP, May 3, 2023)

This is probably one of the very few things that I can agree with the TIs about.
The entire truth should be unveiled.
Imaginations have been running wild over this since 2016-17, and the only way to put a stop to that is to let the truth come out.

I find myself agreeing with more and more of the things that Targeted Individuals complain about:

Quote:

I am a civilian diagnosed with Havana Syndrome. I am on disability with Havana Syndrome. I have not spoken to any of the federal employees affected by directed pulsed microwave attacks. But I can only imagine the sense of disappointment and betrayal they felt after learning that their own government knew all along about the effects of directed pulsed microwave energy on the human brain.
As far as us civilians, we are treated as second class citizens. FBI doesn’t want to investigate it. Politicians roll their eyes when they hear about civilian domestic cases of Havana Syndrome. We have been excluded from the HAVANA ACT, as it only applies to the employees of the State Department and the CIA. When we go to court, the government openly mocks us and uses condescending language describing our legitimate claims. Mainstream journalism doesn’t touch the topic with a 10 foot pole.
The number of individuals in the US tortured with some form of directed energy is estimated to be around 400,000.
The Secret Sauce of Havana Syndrome Causing Microwave Beam is Super-Short Pulse and High-Power Peak. (Len Ber MD on Havana Syndrome, Substack, May 12, 2023)

FBI should investigate "civilian domestic cases of Havana Syndrome." Politicians shouldn't exclude Targeted Individuals from the HAVANA Act. And CBS 60 Minutes should definitely make an episode about Tis - preferably with the experts who participated in their show last year about the 'Havana Syndrome'. Ask Michael Hoffer, David Relman and James Giordano why only U.S. officials' claims are recognized if civilians have the same symptoms. Let them present the brain scans and tell us why some are legit 'Havana syndromes' and others aren't.

[dann]

When I am searching for news about the 'syndrome', I am sometimes surprised by articles that don't seem to have anything at all to do with Havana, syndromes, AHI, DEWs, CIA or embassies. It usually has to do with the links in the those articles, and in this case the reason why it popped up was clear: In a list of "More on CRICKETS" links, there was one to an article about FBI acknowledging agents may have had 'Havana Syndrome' symptoms.

This is the article with the list:

Quote:

In a new essay for Insider, food writer Tiffany Leigh revealed that she feeds her 18-month-old daughter crickets as a source of protein - claiming it saves her hundreds of dollars on grocery bills.
(...)
She said she's been able to cut down her grocery bill of $250 to $300 a week to between $150 and $200.
I feed my daughter crickets for protein - it saves hundreds on grocery bills (New York Post, April 25, 2023)

And in addition to saving money, it is also healthy (lots of protein, vitamins and minerals) and environmentally friendly:

Quote:

Eating insects certainly isn't a new concept: In 2013, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations published a study that found consuming these critters could be a solution to climate change and world hunger, with the global population expected to balloon to 9 billion by 2050.

Now, I am all for eating healthy and solving anthropogenic global warming and world hunger, but in this case I can't help feeling slightly relieved to find that my shellfish allergy exempts me from contributing to this particular part of the solution:

Quote:

Leigh noted her daughter doesn't have dietary restrictions or allergies (those allergic to crustaceans should be careful about consuming edible insects). Werner also recommended making sure that you consider the age of your child when it comes to choking risks - that is, if you choose to feed them the whole cricket.

So to the vast majority of you who aren't allergic to shellfish, I wish you bon appétit!

[dann]

The official 'Havana syndrome' recordings have now made people afraid of the sound of crickets (+ what appears to be Venus. I have no idea why.).
A recording of cricket sounds is now presented as evidence of a sonic attack:

Quote:

Nightly sonic attack. I already have a sonic headache in the frontal lobe and the right side of my skull. #HavanaSyndrome #Neuroweapons #BrainFrying #TargetedIndividuals
https://twitter.com/ti_nevada/status...59962754256898

Also here.

At least, actual recordings make it obvious what it is.
I have no idea what Electronic Anal Torture is.
Hemorrhoids?

More at #HavanaSyndrome.

[dann]

New article about the 'syndrome' on page 16 of The Foreign Service Journal, May 2023: Havana Syndrome Cause Remains a Mystery (AFSA, May 2023)

[dann]

In a new podcast, Robert Bartholomew answers the question, "Why could it only ever have been a myth?"

Quote:

After several years and tens of millions of dollars spent investigating, US Intelligence have concluded the condition dubbed ‘Havana Syndrome’ is a myth. The sound has been identified as the mating call of the Indies short-tailed cricket.
A sociologist specialising in mass hysteria and social panics, Robert Bartholomew is the co-author with Robert Balohof of 2020 book Havana Syndrome.
Robert Bartholomew: what caused Havana Syndrome (RNZ.co.nz, May 20, 2023 - 33:33)

Like in other interviews, Bartholomew mentions several more or less well-known cases of MPI, including the very recent one in Iran, mentioned here in post 1,898.

[dann]

Another pop culture reference to the 'syndrome'. This one in an article about the new series Citadel on Prime:

Quote:

At the end of Episode Four, Bernard's teaser of a big twist begins to come true. (Warning—spoilers ahead.) Citadel may be the "good guys," but that doesn't stop them from executing some questionable workplace methods. Notably—Mason Kane mind-wiping one of his own agents. Even worse, that agent somehow becomes Kane's wife in the future when he can't remember his own past either. Maybe this is what the CIA is actually complaining about when they bring up Havana Syndrome.
Citadel Episode Release Schedule (Esquire, May 12, 2023)

[dann]

Len Ber, the Targeted Individual, who at this point thinks that mRNA vaccines masquerade "as pharmaceutical products, but are in fact military countermeasures" ('Weapons of Mass Immunization', I assume), isn't happy with the Bartholomew interview mentioned in post 1,913.

Ber wants Bartholomew to revise his allegedly "outdated falsified hypothesis" and says that "correcting yourself is a sign of intellectual ajility."

[dann]

My original thread title: Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?

I don't know what to make of this:

Quote:

Asked by moderator Alex Klokus, founder and managing partner of Salt Fund, if he believes intelligent extraterrestrials have ever visited Earth, Nolan said that not only does he believe they have been here in the past, but that they are here right now.
“It’s been here a long time,” Nolan said of his suspicions that an exotic form of intelligence may be lurking nearby.
“And it’s still here,” he added.
Garry Nolan: A Stanford Professor’s Quest to Resolve Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (The Debrief, May 22, 2023)

I would really like to have a little more than just his words to back this up.

Quote:

Although Nolan is quick to say that he isn’t a brain expert by training, occasionally his biological research does involve such studies. Several years ago, at the request of members of the intelligence community, he began looking into unusual health conditions afflicting several military and other government personnel. This led Nolan to the discovery of unique features in a particular region of the brain—the caudate putamen—that appeared in the MRI scans of some of these individuals.
It had been the caudate putamen connection, Nolan says, that led to some of the earliest detections of anomalous health incidents that are now popularly known as Havana Syndrome. However, that hadn’t been all that interested Nolan about this research.
“It’s actually a perfect example of the unexpected finding leading to something interesting, even if it wasn’t necessarily where you were headed in the first place,” Nolan says.
“Yet it still circles back to things like remote viewing and perception, consciousness, all of these things,” Nolan says, adding that he hopes to gather enough data to be able to apply it toward furthering our understanding of such purported phenomena.

Are we supposed to believe that aliens have irradiated the brains of 'Havana syndrome' victims and turned them into psychics? It's not one of the symptoms I've heard the 'syndrome' victims or their doctors mention. It must have been hidden in the redacted parts of the reports.

[dann]

Quote:

About us
Advanced Echelon was founded by combat veterans and intelligence professionals with over 40 years of experience in national security.
They spent years working Anomalous Health Incidents/Havana Syndrome and realized there was no company that could help deal with the complexities of taking care of the survivors or reaching attribution, until now.
Our members have led AHI efforts from the beginning, we know the survivors and the problem set.
Advanced Echelon is a Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned Small Business (SDVOSB) dedicated to taking care of your people and using innovation to accomplish the mission.
(...)
The gaslighting of AHI survivors continues to this day in some government agencies, as history repeats itself.
It is time to take a new path, we need to take care of the survivors and seek attribution so we can stop these attacks on our people. Advanced Echelon can help, let's go forward together.
Addressing Havana Syndrome (Advanced Echelon, Jan 3, 2023)

I get the impression that this company's presentation of itself was carefully considered: For instance, what exactly are "these attacks on our people"? Are they talking abut the alleged DEW attacks on U.S. diplomats "since President Dwight D. Eisenhower was in office"? According to the ODNI report no such attacks have taken place, and no enemy or weapon or attack was found or detected in Havana. Or at least, no evidence of DEW attacks on U.S. personnel has been found. But since they don't mention DEW attacks explicitly, they could be talking about any kind of attack since the 1950s. Or are they talking figuratively about the alleged gaslighting, describing it as attacks?

I have no idea, but they don't seem to be in line with the U.S. government when they imply that 'Havana Syndrome' survivors (!) are the victims of an actual attack. Even the most fervent congressional believers in the 'syndrome' (Collins, Shaheen, Gillibrand) stopped talking about attacks after March 1, 2023.

On the other hand, I am pretty sure what TIs will assume they are talking about. In particular, because the site mentions that AHIs can't possibly be caused by MPI ...

[dann]

A comment:

Quote:

18 hr ago [i.e. May 28]
... I saw Dr. Hoffer this week and I'm going back on June 12th to do all of the Havana Syndrome tests. The results should help the lawsuit. ...
#TJvGarland - Week 22 Update (Len Ber MD on Havana Syndrome on Substack, May 28, 2023)

It sound as if Michael Hoffer is still diagnosing people with 'Havana Syndrome'. I very much doubt that this woman was ever anywhere near Havana.
See also posts 1,709, 1,722, 1,752) and 1,799.

[dann]

In post 1,880, I mentioned the announcement of Robert Baloh's webinar on April 19, 2023. I was unable to watch it at the time and expected it to be uploaded to YouTube, which at one point seemed to have happened, but the link was to a different video with another lecturer.

The mistake has now been remedied, and the webinar is available:

Quote:

In one of the most extraordinary cases in the history of science, the mating calls of insects were mistaken for a “sonic weapon” that led to a major diplomatic row. The lecture will trace the origins of the syndrome, the response of the U.S. government, the results of scientific investigations and opinions, the evolution of the syndrome over time and similar phenomena that have occurred in the past.

Robert W. Baloh, MD is Professor of Neurology and Head and Neck Surgery (Emeritus) at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. Author of 14 books and more than 350 articles in peer reviewed journals, he is a pioneer in the study of the vestibular system and clinical neurotology. He has a recent book on Havana Syndrome co-authored with Robert Bartholomew, a sociologist from New Zealand. Two other recent books are: “Medically Unexplained Symptoms”* and “Exercise and the Brain”** .
The Havana Syndrome: A Disorder of Neuropolitics? - Robert W. Baloh, MD (UCI Media on YouTube, May 26, 2023 - 1:18:35)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I just found out and haven't watched it yet. I look forward to doing so!


ETA: I wasn't aware that Baloh had released two books after his and Bartholomew's book about the 'syndrome' in 2020: Havana Syndrome - Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story Behind the Embassy Mystery and Hysteria:
* Medically Unexplained Symptoms: A Brain-Centered Approach
** Exercise and the Brain: Why Physical Exercise is Essential to Peak Cognitive Health

[dann]

I have listened to Robert Baloh's webinar now, and I think that Targeted Individuals may find this excerpt from the webinar interesting:

29:34-->30:52

Quote:

In the very beginning, right after the press release, the Associated Press reported that they had a large number of tourists contact them who said they think they had developed Havana Syndrome from when they were in Havana around the same time and they had stayed at these hotels where some of the embassy people had stayed. And the AP requested from the government what they should tell these people. And the government told them, no, they should see their family doctor.
They're really not interested in non-embassy cases. And it's really obvious that there have been many, many cases. I get emails fairly regularly from people who are sure they have Havana Syndrome, and they want to know how they can get a diagnosis and what they can do about it. But we have this very unusual situation where it is really only Havana Syndrome if you are an employee of an embassy or the U.S. government or possibly some other government [agency].

There's one thing that I would like to know more about.

22:50-->23:30:

Quote:

And it turns out there were actually 14 Canadians who where then sent home complaining of symptoms. And five of them hired attorneys and they were suing the Canadian government because they did not properly protect them. That suit is still pending.
What is interesting is that because of the suit, the case descriptions were supplied in great detail and one could read them. And they had the same kind of non-specific symptoms as the Americans had.

Gord in Toronto? Is this something you have heard about? Do you know if those descriptions are available somewhere?