ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th January 2019, 01:34 PM   #241
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,372
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A mental illness is defined as a condition that causes significant distress or impairment of personal function. I'm sure you can find some examples of religion causing significant distress or personal function, but it is certainly not a common factor in all religious people.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

Just to return to arth's proviso that belief in woo must cause you harm if it's insanity, ...........

To my embarrassment when reviewing the posts, I found I had interpreted arth's claim of "causes significant distress ......" with causing causing harm. Not quite the same - my bad.

On the other hand I would like to suggest to you arth that your approach of "I know what I am talking about so listen up." is not a good one. You have been posting on this forum for some time now, how has this approach panned out for you before?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:36 PM   #242
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by xterra View Post
On the other hand, as I pointed out earlier, in some sects, shunning or disfellowship is common. Not all of these are fringe groups.
Yes. That's certainly true (and even specifically referenced - by most interpretations - in Matthew 18:17), though again, not unique to religious circles I don't think.
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:36 PM   #243
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,463
If Ted thinks he's Napoleon that's a mental issue because one cannot leave thinking they are Napoleon without severe hardship and difficulty in day to day life.

So if society where just to start going along with Ted, telling him "Sure, you're Napoleon" and making it so he stops having to deal with the consequences of thinking he's Napoleon, would it suddenly stop being a mental illness?
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #244
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,620
Saved from what, though? The starting point, before worrying about getting saved, is to show that there's something threatening you/me/us to be saved from.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:43 PM   #245
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If Ted thinks he's Napoleon that's a mental issue because one cannot leave thinking they are Napoleon without severe hardship and difficulty in day to day life.

So if society where just to start going along with Ted, telling him "Sure, you're Napoleon" and making it so he stops having to deal with the consequences of thinking he's Napoleon, would it suddenly stop being a mental illness?
Good point! Normalising a paranormal belief doesn't make it any less paranormal.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:45 PM   #246
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,463
And that's why the whole "It's a problem when it becomes a problem" standard.. doesn't really work for me. It's dependent on a third factor that's not a cause or symptom.

It's... like calling something a disease only after the treatment doesn't work.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 01:49 PM   #247
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I almost feel like the atheist/agnostics are being baited into saying "Religion is crazy" so we can be dismissed as "mean" or "rude."

Yes some parts of religion, and yes some parts of mainstream religion not just crazy fringe beliefs held by No True Scotsmen, are hard for me to understand in the context of a healthy psyche.

If you're a grown, mentally developed individual living in 2019 in a Western style secular democracy and you think the world was created thousands of years after we as a species learned how to brew beer... I'm sorry I don't have a neutral or non-negative way of describing that.

But, as I said way back on page one, the compartmentalization of religious beliefs; the ability of people to live normal lives, hold normal jobs, think normal things and then on Sunday go to a big special building and specifically celebrate the fact that they hold demonstrably false opinions... does make it even weirder.
Hi JoeMorgue. Don't think we've had too much interaction on the site yet, but I've appreciated many of your posts. (I find myself frequently looking for a "Like" or "LOL" button like the kids do on this site).

Anyway, apart from the bit about being baited (Religion is crazy is basically the premise of the OP - yes, yes, there is a question mark there, but only after the exclamation point), I agree with you and I think you make the important point that in the context of modern society, some religious thinking and practices can/do seem "crazy". I think that's an accurate, nuanced, and fair point.

Just for "journalistic balance"(or some forum equivalent), perhaps we need another thread as well ... something along the lines of "okay, so apart from religion, what else strikes you as crazy". Repeating the same action and expecting a different response could be one sub-thread, though I fear participating in at least some ISF threads (not this one of course) might end up on that list upon reflection.
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:05 PM   #248
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Saved from what, though? The starting point, before worrying about getting saved, is to show that there's something threatening you/me/us to be saved from.
Hi Delvo. Yes, good point. I prefer the thinking that there is an opportunity to be involved in something great, ("the Parable of the great feast" sort of idea - eg. Luke 14:15), or even to be involved in the building/establishing of something great (just my own thinking).
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:06 PM   #249
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Good point! Normalising a paranormal belief doesn't make it any less paranormal.
Except both depend on the idea of "normal", which is highly subjective.
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #250
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If Ted thinks he's Napoleon that's a mental issue because one cannot leave thinking they are Napoleon without severe hardship and difficulty in day to day life.

So if society where just to start going along with Ted, telling him "Sure, you're Napoleon" and making it so he stops having to deal with the consequences of thinking he's Napoleon, would it suddenly stop being a mental illness?
I don't think this analogy quite hits the mark unless your theist "Ted" is living in a society of oddly pandering atheists.

Perhaps it fairly accurately describes what might happen if a theist attempted to exist in the "society" of ISF and everyone was nice to him despite thinking he was quite nuts ... (keep it up though, I appreciate the kindness)
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:14 PM   #251
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Except both depend on the idea of "normal", which is highly subjective.
Is an invisible, magical being that can create a Universe a normal being?

ETA - For clarity . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm using "normal" exclusively as an antonym of "paranormal", not "abnormal".

In that context "normal" is only subjective if you also argue that "paranormal" is subjective.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 7th January 2019 at 02:35 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:17 PM   #252
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,463
Normal is subjective.

Factual and non-factual are not.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:19 PM   #253
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
I don't think this analogy quite hits the mark unless your theist "Ted" is living in a society of oddly pandering atheists.
How does "I'm Napoleon" become "I'm a theist"?

I don't think you understood the analogy.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 7th January 2019 at 02:37 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:24 PM   #254
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Normal is subjective.

Factual and non-factual are not.
I'm using "normal" exclusively as an antonym of "paranormal", not "abnormal".

In that context "normal" is only subjective if you also argue that "paranormal" is subjective.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:25 PM   #255
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,463
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm using "normal" exclusively as an antonym of "paranormal", not "abnormal".

In that context "normal" is only subjective if you also argue that "paranormal" is subjective.
Sorry I was referring to Attempt5001's statement of "Normal is highly subjective" and the thread moved faster then I predicted.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:25 PM   #256
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,867
Question is when does holding an irrational belief pass the line into madness.
I think everybody has irrational beleifs in one way or another....including those who claim to be 100% rational....which is an impossibility for a human being anyway. We are humans,not Vulcans.
I am a skeptic when it comes to religion, but am not willing to call everybody who believes n a Supreme Being crazy.
Frankly, it is that kind of thing that gives atheists a bad rep with many peole who are not particulary religious.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:27 PM   #257
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sorry I was referring to Attempt5001's statement of "Normal is highly subjective" and the thread moved faster then I predicted.
No worries
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:30 PM   #258
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Question is when does holding an irrational belief pass the line into madness.
I think everybody has irrational beleifs in one way or another....including those who claim to be 100% rational....which is an impossibility for a human being anyway. We are humans,not Vulcans.
I am a skeptic when it comes to religion, but am not willing to call everybody who believes n a Supreme Being crazy.
Frankly, it is that kind of thing that gives atheists a bad rep with many peole who are not particulary religious.
You conflate "call everybody who believes in a Supreme Being crazy" and "call a belief in a Supreme Being a crazy belief".

It follows that people that have crazy beliefs are crazy to have them, but that doesn't make them necessarily crazy per se.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 7th January 2019 at 02:33 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:34 PM   #259
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,372
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Hey T2. Lots in there to respond to. Of course I can only speak about the teaching and experience that is common to the church group I've been a part of and has resonated most for me.

Regarding confidence in salvation, three scriptures come to mind that are often used to consider the question, (they are in a number of the gospels, so I'll just note the one that comes up first in a google search - nope, I don't have them memorized ).

One is Matthew 19:16 (follow the commandments and sell your possessions to give to the poor), but that seems more to be a discussion about the tension between selflessness and selfishness (as well as grace vs. legalistic thinking) to me.
Yes I think many Christians struggle with that one together with the camel and eye of the needle thing. The prosperity gospel folk just throw it in the bin I think. The best counter to it I have heard is Jesus was just demonstrating how inadequate man was in getting over the high bar of absolute morality. (How did I do there. Think I would make a good preacher? )

Quote:
Another is when someone asks Jesus what is the greatest commandment in Matthew 22:34 (Love God, and similarly, love your neighbour as yourself - this summarizes all the law and the prophets). By the way, right before that is the bit where the educated people of the time/culture try to trap Jesus by asking him about what happens in heaven to a man who married multiple times. I don't expect the answer will satisfy many here, but if you're expecting any better answer from me I'm sorry to disappoint you
Yes, verse 37 in my King James version:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Always had trouble with the idea of being commanded to love. From my experience love is something that wells up inside you, when the loved has earned it somehow. Jesus (as God) certainly didn't endear himself to the multitude in the following chapter when you unleashed about Hellfire and such.

Interesting that Jesus struggled with the multiple wives thing. Possibly hadn't thought it through perhaps.

Quote:
But back to salvation, the simplest response (that I think most Christian groups go to) is in Romans 10:9, where is says "if you confess with your mouth, ďJesus is Lord,Ē and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." I think that's why a lot of christian groups do a sort of "if you believe in Jesus, say this 'repeat-after-me' prayer", so they can check the "believe" and "confess" requirements and feel that the salvation is "secure".
All a little wishy washy for me I'm afraid.

Quote:
Based on that last definition, salvation is not presented as being difficult to attain. You're quite right though, that there can be a sense of pressure to demonstrate your faith in a variety of ways from kindness to charitable giving to speaking in tongues (I have participated in all of these things, inevitably with some desire to fit in, but not under pressure). No doubt it can be tempting to "go along" with these sorts of things to avoid wondering if you really "believe in your heart" and are therefore really "saved", so I understand your question and point. In most of my church experience though, believers have been encouraged to have confidence/peace in their salvation and I think that has born-out in general.
Interesting but the difficulty of being saved is stressed in the Bible also. So on the one hand you have people practicing self flagellation, getting nailed to crosses and so on, and at the other end of the spectrum folk attending happy clappy type churches (definition cutesy of arthwollipot) to get salvation. Mind you contradiction is nothing new when wrangling with scripture is it?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:40 PM   #260
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Always had trouble with the idea of being commanded to love. From my experience love is something that wells up inside you, when the loved has earned it somehow. Jesus (as God) certainly didn't endear himself to the multitude in the following chapter when you unleashed about Hellfire and such.
Yep, it gets worse when it becomes "Love me, OR ELSE!".
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 7th January 2019 at 02:42 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 04:04 PM   #261
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,017
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
For those that would argue that more than a tiny fraction of those that believe in a religion should be considered to have a psychological disorder, or be insane, or crazy or whatever, what is your definition of psychological disorder, or be insane, or crazy or whatever?
I find it odd that someone might ask this question since I have twice now quoted the official definition of mental disorder that is accepted by psychologists and mental health professionals across the world.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 04:06 PM   #262
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,017
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
On the other hand I would like to suggest to you arth that your approach of "I know what I am talking about so listen up." is not a good one. You have been posting on this forum for some time now, how has this approach panned out for you before?
I have never had to use it before.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 04:30 PM   #263
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,017
And while I'm on it, if I'd just said "I know what I'm talking about, you should believe me" then you would have even less reason to trust what I say. Instead, I explain why I have some knowledge in the field. Apparently that still isn't good enough.

Look, if you don't believe me, that's your problem. There are good reasons to pay attention to what I'm saying, but if you don't want to hear me, then fine. Whatever. Just make up whatever **** makes you happy. Just don't come near anyone with a genuine mental health diagnosis.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 04:53 PM   #264
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,620
I don't get why people are acting as if the definition of mental illness having personal distress or life-impairment as a component were at all doubted or controversial or just one forumite's personal opinion or such. It's the standard in psychology & psychiatry, and it has been for ages, as shown by the links that have already been given and any other source you care to bother checking. In any basic introductory psychology class at any college, that definition is not just first-day stuff; it's first-minute stuff. It's like having a "debate" or "dispute" over whether or not meteorology involves air.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 10:25 PM   #265
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,493
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I think religion took hold because there was some kind of power and financial advantage to be had in controlling a culture that shared common paranormal/supernatural beliefs based on emotional fears and desires.
Back in the day most explanations would pretty much have to be paranormal/supernatural. And not all that long ago really. I'm not an expert, but I don't think there was some cabal of astrophysicists peddling woo to the masses. I also think religion predates the profit motive.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 11:02 PM   #266
llwyd
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 446
I would think that the medical definition of mental illness is pretty important for the subject - unless you just want to use the terms "crazy" and "mad" colloquially which would make for rather imprecise language and concept. I mean I fully think that die hard Trumpists (I guess about 30% of American voters) are "mad" while I certainly don't believe that the majority of them are mentally ill.

Anyway, I would think that religion can be a highly effective personal survival mechanism and it can surely have benefits for communities too. But if that comes with a price of having to deny obvious and self-evident empirical facts, then the price would be giving up reason and that's way too high a price for me (and I think ultimately for humanity too).
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 01:34 AM   #267
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,347
Perhaps motivated by this thread, I've begun to follow my very own online apostle. Very important topic covered in latest sermon. Much relieved!
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 08:19 AM   #268
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,910
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I find it odd that someone might ask this question since I have twice now quoted the official definition of mental disorder that is accepted by psychologists and mental health professionals across the world.
That's pretty much why I'm asking the question. You've pretty much answered the op with that but there still seems to be a some defending the idea that just being religious is tantamount to insanity. I'd like to know what they think insanity is.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 01:26 PM   #269
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,129
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'd like to know what they think insanity is.
Using prayer to cure an infection instead tge antibiotics your doctor prescribed. Criminally insane would be praying for your child who has meningitis instead of seeking medical help.

Those are just two of thousands I can think of.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 01:34 PM   #270
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,463
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'd like to know what they think insanity is.
It doesn't matter because there response is just going to be a "But.. but not all religions!" to the point we're talking vague hypothetical religions that nobody actually believes in.

Like I said earlier (or in the other thread they are starting to run together a bit) it's like the vague God of vague vagueness doing vague things vaguely in a vague way that we're supposed to be arguing against in every discussion about God.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 02:18 PM   #271
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Is an invisible, magical being that can create a Universe a normal being?
I think we were talking about whether religion/belief is normal, which, in my opinion, is a question that depends on context and is therefore subjective.

You're right that the idea of God as a being is inherently outside the scope of "normal", but I don't really think that advances the discussion much [vide infra].

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
How does "I'm Napoleon" become "I'm a theist"?

I don't think you understood the analogy.
[in my best "boss-from-office-space" voice] Hmmm...riiiight...gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.

Pretty sure the "guy with the deluded beliefs" was meant as a parallel to the theist/religious person and the people who could perceive the delusion were the sage atheists. No?

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm using "normal" exclusively as an antonym of "paranormal", not "abnormal".

In that context "normal" is only subjective if you also argue that "paranormal" is subjective.
Gonna stick to my guns on that one too. Paranormal "lies beyond normal experience or scientific explanation" (wiki). I hold that "normal experience" is inherently subjective and scientific explanation is a growing and changing field. I'll accept though that you could alternatively define paranormal as "in apparent breach of established physical laws", in which case it becomes less subjective. Still not sure how that advances the discussion except to say that people believe in stuff that is not normal, which I don't think anyone is contending.

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You conflate "call everybody who believes in a Supreme Being crazy" and "call a belief in a Supreme Being a crazy belief".

It follows that people that have crazy beliefs are crazy to have them, but that doesn't make them necessarily crazy per se.
I feel like you might be walking more of a tight-rope that me with that one ... and that's saying something

Appreciate the discussion as always ynot. Cheers.
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 02:49 PM   #272
attempt5001
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I think many Christians struggle with that one together with the camel and eye of the needle thing. The prosperity gospel folk just throw it in the bin I think. The best counter to it I have heard is Jesus was just demonstrating how inadequate man was in getting over the high bar of absolute morality. (How did I do there. Think I would make a good preacher? )
Nice, yes, you have potential for sure And yes, I think that's a reasonable explanation I have heard too. It resonates with the idea that Christ (and the Holy Spirit thereafter) were meant to be a help, not a condemnation.



Quote:
Yes, verse 37 in my King James version:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Always had trouble with the idea of being commanded to love. From my experience love is something that wells up inside you, when the loved has earned it somehow. Jesus (as God) certainly didn't endear himself to the multitude in the following chapter when you unleashed about Hellfire and such.
Hmm...I think of love as having a lot more to do with choice and constancy than with feelings or emotions, especially in the long-term. So I am okay the instruction to love although what it actually means to love God is a hard concept. That's why I'm glad the next bit says the the second part (loving your neighbour) is like the first. Gives me some insight into what "loving God" looks like practically.

Quote:
Interesting that Jesus struggled with the multiple wives thing. Possibly hadn't thought it through perhaps.
Laugh, yeah, I see your perspective. You don't buy that his answer was so profound that it left the skeptics speechless eh? I can understand that. I could see how if there really is a "spiritual domain/reality" that is impossible to fully understand, an astute questioner could ask a question with an answer he is not capable of comprehending (but obviously that is an interpretation that suits my bias).



Quote:
All a little wishy washy for me I'm afraid.
really? I thought that one would strike you as "cut and dry" at least ("say and believe this and you're in, don't say and believe it and you're out"). Do you mean it sounds too simple/easy, or perhaps incongruous with the behaviours/examples of believers you have seen as you mention below?



Quote:
Interesting but the difficulty of being saved is stressed in the Bible also. So on the one hand you have people practicing self flagellation, getting nailed to crosses and so on, and at the other end of the spectrum folk attending happy clappy type churches (definition cutesy of arthwollipot) to get salvation. Mind you contradiction is nothing new when wrangling with scripture is it?
Again, fair point about the contradiction. No lack of that historically or in modern expressions of the christian faith. From my understanding though, the things you mentioned aren't about being saved, but attempts to express/cultivate one's faith/understanding. The "what do we do now" that comes after salvation can take some pretty strange forms (though as I've mentioned more times than necessary most likely, strange is a relative term)

Last edited by attempt5001; 8th January 2019 at 02:50 PM. Reason: messed up separating the quotes and responses. :/
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 03:24 PM   #273
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
I think we were talking about whether religion/belief is normal, which, in my opinion, is a question that depends on context and is therefore subjective.
Well you might be talking about that but Iím definitely not. Iím talking about a god being a normal (as opposed to paranormal) being, not a normal (as in usual or common) belief. How can you miss that when you directly quoted it? . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Is an invisible, magical being that can create a Universe a normal being?
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
You're right that the idea of God as a being is inherently outside the scope of "normal", but I don't really think that advances the discussion much [vide infra].
The idea of gods is well within the scope of ďnormalĒ when defined as ďusual or commonĒ. Iím not talking about the idea or belief of gods however, Iím specifically talking about the being (existence) of gods, and whether that existence is normal (as in factual) or paranormal (as in fantastical).

Might get time to respond to the rest of your post later - Cheers
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 8th January 2019 at 04:13 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 03:40 PM   #274
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,017
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Using prayer to cure an infection instead tge antibiotics your doctor prescribed. Criminally insane would be praying for your child who has meningitis instead of seeking medical help.

Those are just two of thousands I can think of.
Again, what you colloquially consider "insane" is not the same thing as being a diagnosable mental disorder. The OP is asking whether religion is a mental disorder, not whether religious people can be colloquially called "insane". If you just want to insult religious people, you are free to do so - I think it's more than a little petty, but you're free to do so. Perhaps start a thread in Humor titled "The insane thing religious people do".

Don't mix that up with diagnosable mental health conditions. Take mental health seriously.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 03:54 PM   #275
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,910
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It doesn't matter because there response is just going to be a "But.. but not all religions!" to the point we're talking vague hypothetical religions that nobody actually believes in.

Like I said earlier (or in the other thread they are starting to run together a bit) it's like the vague God of vague vagueness doing vague things vaguely in a vague way that we're supposed to be arguing against in every discussion about God.
It seems like several different conversations are going on. Some are about the vaguest religion you discuss and some are about the real, concrete and quite crazy extremes that are hardly representative of the vast majority of religious people.

I could easily be conflating multiple posters but there seems to a line of argument to the effect of, "Here's a crazy version of religion, there for all religion is crazy."

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Using prayer to cure an infection instead tge antibiotics your doctor prescribed. Criminally insane would be praying for your child who has meningitis instead of seeking medical help.

Those are just two of thousands I can think of.
That's more of an example than a definition. I agree, its insane to think prayer will cure your meningitis, that says nothing about believing a god exist that metes out justice at the end of the universe or what ever silly notions people believe in.

I don't think anyone is denying that some religious people are or can reasonable be called insane. The Op seems to be asking where we draw the line personally.

Some folks seem to think that any religious belief is insane.
I don't think anyone here his defending the notion that no religious beliefs are insane though.

Last edited by ahhell; 8th January 2019 at 03:56 PM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 04:00 PM   #276
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,045
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
[in my best "boss-from-office-space" voice] Hmmm...riiiight...gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.

Pretty sure the "guy with the deluded beliefs" was meant as a parallel to the theist/religious person and the people who could perceive the delusion were the sage atheists. No?
Here’s the post . . .
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If Ted thinks he's Napoleon that's a mental issue because one cannot leave thinking they are Napoleon without severe hardship and difficulty in day to day life.

So if society where just to start going along with Ted, telling him "Sure, you're Napoleon" and making it so he stops having to deal with the consequences of thinking he's Napoleon, would it suddenly stop being a mental illness?
No! I’m pretty sure the "guy with the deluded beliefs" was meant as a parallel for all guys with all deluded beliefs. The point of the analogy as I interpret it was that JoeMorgue was using it to ask you if any deluded belief has less negative social consequences is it less of a mental illness? Less negative social consequences in this case because society goes along with the delusion. Mental illness cured by social lying. I think the point is less negative social consequences don’t make for less mental illness. Perhaps JoeMorgue might care to clarify?
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 8th January 2019 at 04:16 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #277
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,017
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't think anyone here his defending the notion that no religious beliefs are insane though.
As long as we're talking about the colloquial, non-technical, wooly definition of "insane", then I agree.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 05:38 PM   #278
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,372
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As long as we're talking about the colloquial, non-technical, wooly definition of "insane", then I agree.

Well we know we can call on you arth if we need to get into the heavy technical stuff.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 06:08 PM   #279
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,017
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well we know we can call on you arth if we need to get into the heavy technical stuff.
If by that you mean "truth", then no problem. I'm always available.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 06:34 PM   #280
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 865
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
I don't think this analogy quite hits the mark unless your theist "Ted" is living in a society of oddly pandering atheists.
It does, though, if you think of Teddy living in the midst of uncommonly ignorant and/or gullible folks who literally believe his accounts of his delusions, and who do literally pander to his insanity simply by taking him at his word.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.