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Old 13th August 2009, 03:48 PM   #1
alienentity
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Noam Chomsky on how 9/11 'Truth' helped Bush

The title says it all, folks. Chomsky points out how the 9/11 'truth' cult, like the JFK conspiracy cult, distracts people from pursuing real issues, and protesting the real sins of its leaders.

He discusses how these movements operate as cults, aided by the uncensored internet.

He also compares the current extreme right climate of American talk radio to the propaganda of the Weimar republic.

All this in about 7 minutes! Sit back and enjoy. I've prepared a new video clip just for you....... (music excerpt 'Constipated Duck' from Jeff Beck, Blow By Blow. Great album. Gotta be in your collection)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


thanks to Gravy for more inspiration.... but Simon Cowell? WTF!

Here's a link to Gravy's video as well:

http://tinyurl.com/3b2lr2
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000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.'
mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'

Last edited by alienentity; 13th August 2009 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 13th August 2009, 04:44 PM   #2
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Methinks that the truth movement was never large enough to influence anything.
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Old 13th August 2009, 04:46 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
He also compares the current extreme right climate of American talk radio to the propaganda of the Weimar republic.
Already Godwining himself out of arguments, I see. I agree with the cult bit, but constant comparisons with Nazi Germany are getting old, and irrelevant.

Last edited by Pardalis; 13th August 2009 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 13th August 2009, 04:58 PM   #4
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My impression of the Truth Movement is that never was intended to be a unified body. You could almost consider it a lobby group designed to unity a wide range of beliefs from both the left and right to create confusion and disorder that the Bush Administration would have to respond to.

Most of the groups I've joined in the last few weeks are composed of people who never post and seem to have little to say when you approach them directly. The only active people in these groups are NWO anti-Jew folks. One group I am a member of has a member who is now trying to reorganize into a lobby group for 'justice'.

For me personally, I am deeply bothered by my discovery of 911 Truth. One of the issues on the Left is development of strategies that would unify the left and right. It seems that 911 Truth was successful at doing this, but that when all the smoke & mirrors disappeared, the only people left were crazier than ever.
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Old 13th August 2009, 05:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post

For me personally, I am deeply bothered by my discovery of 911 Truth. One of the issues on the Left is development of strategies that would unify the left and right. It seems that 911 Truth was successful at doing this, but that when all the smoke & mirrors disappeared, the only people left were crazier than ever.

I've had this in my boilerplate file for some time. It captures my thoughts about the Truthers better than I could write it.


Quote:
"Why do I bother with these morons? [the Truth Movement] Because they are destroying the movements which some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress; that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy; that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.

The obvious corollorary to the belief that the Bush administration is all-powerful is that the rest of us are completely powerless. In fact it seems to me that the purpose of the "9/11 truth movement" is to be powerless. The omnipotence of the Bush regime is the coward's fantasy, an excuse for inaction used by those who don't have the stomach to engage in real political fights."
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Last edited by BigAl; 13th August 2009 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 13th August 2009, 05:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Already Godwining himself out of arguments, I see. I agree with the cult bit, but constant comparisons with Nazi Germany are getting old, and irrelevant.
And Chomsky had better be careful about accusing others of being totaltarian,considering his unending attempts to whitewash the Pol Pot regime.
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Old 13th August 2009, 05:44 PM   #7
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I appreciate the reply. Another group I belong to has thousands of registered members. Only a few people post anything anymore, but by far the most prolific poster is a Jewish Conspiracy poster. In fact, his most recent line is that LC is disinformation produced by Jews.

The invention of 911 Truth gave a legitimate forum to a group of crazy people in such a way that they would be read by otherwise rational thinking people. I can think of no other venue where facist conspiracy theorists would mix with pacifist anarchists and everyone would think they were on the same side. And while these groups are pretty much dead now, I've seen places where young politically naive people were exposed to the most henious ideas about race and government in a way that gave them credability.

Politically, I much more left than most people and for many years, I perceived debunking as generally a waste of time for brain power spent on UFOs and the Sasquatch that would be better used dealing with global poverty or getting everyone clean water. My experience with 911 Truth has had me reevaluate all this. I once read the Manson cult described as the hippies your parents were always afraid of. Well...911 Truth is the radical political movement even I'm afraid of.
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Old 13th August 2009, 06:38 PM   #8
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Noam and I discussed this in email long ago! I am glad he wrote this.
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Old 13th August 2009, 07:11 PM   #9
alienentity
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Already Godwining himself out of arguments, I see. I agree with the cult bit, but constant comparisons with Nazi Germany are getting old, and irrelevant.
Hehe. I used to have a saying - Everyone is Hitler. It seemed to fit when discussing heated Middle East politics etc..
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Old 13th August 2009, 07:13 PM   #10
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9-11 Truthers have not helped Bush much. They are waaay too small, crazy, and stupid.

But..they sure didn't hurt Bush!!
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Old 13th August 2009, 07:48 PM   #11
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You're absolutely right and maybe for the reasons that BigAl was pointing to. But what I meant to say was that not only did they not do any of the things they hoped to accomplish, they probably did damage to their position.
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Old 13th August 2009, 08:00 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
thanks to Gravy for more inspiration.... but Simon Cowell? WTF!
Are you saying that Simon Cowell is not an agent of evil?
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Old 13th August 2009, 08:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Are you saying that Simon Cowell is not an agent of evil?
hes one of those things from the movie "They Live"

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Old 13th August 2009, 08:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Justin39640 View Post
hes one of those things from the movie "They Live"

http://www.movingimagesource.us/imag...142-medium.jpg
best fighting scene ever!!! Go Rowdy Rowdy Piper!!!

...or should I say....Timmy!!!!




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Old 13th August 2009, 09:18 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Are you saying that Simon Cowell is not an agent of evil?
I..I...don't know..
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mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'
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Old 13th August 2009, 09:30 PM   #16
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Man, those things had a lot of teeth.

Fantastic hair though.
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Old 13th August 2009, 09:31 PM   #17
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Although 'Uncle' Noam's analysis is superficial, and ...

Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
The title says it all, folks. Chomsky points out how the 9/11 'truth' cult, like the JFK conspiracy cult, distracts people from pursuing real issues, and protesting the real sins of its leaders.

He discusses how these movements operate as cults, aided by the uncensored internet.

He also compares the current extreme right climate of American talk radio to the propaganda of the Weimar republic.

All this in about 7 minutes! Sit back and enjoy. I've prepared a new video clip just for you....... (music excerpt 'Constipated Duck' from Jeff Beck, Blow By Blow. Great album. Gotta be in your collection)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


thanks to Gravy for more inspiration.... but Simon Cowell? WTF!

Here's a link to Gravy's video as well:

http://tinyurl.com/3b2lr2
Although 'Uncle' Noam's analysis is superficial, and he seems every bit as much in denial about the political effectiveness of like-minded individuals (to himself) as some 911 Truthers are wrt their movement, he does raise (implicitly) the interesting question of the distraction of 911 Truthers from more effective political action.

My own comments related to this interesting question, in the form of a commentary on a recent 911blogger post, will follow shortly. But first....

But first I want to return 'Uncle Noam's' spanking, in the form of zeroeing in on what appears to be his own denial: perhaps somebody can step in and tell us what wonderful goals have been achieved by the Peace Movement? Before 9/11/2001? I credit the peace movement with getting us out of Vietnam sooner than would have occured, otherwise. Aside from that, I can't think of any war or covert action that was prevented or curtailed by the Peace Movement. Can anybody help me and Uncle Noam out, and come up with an example? I also think of the environmental movement as mostly a fail, though important legislation was passed in the 60's/70's, which is why you can drive on highways on CA, and the smog isn't so bad that your eyes tear up. (That's what it was like in the 60's).

Even so, the effort to stem environmental warming isn't going so well, now is it, 'Uncle Noam'? And that was the case before 9/11.

Another way to think of this is: What wonderful thing would have happened, had the 911 Truth Movement not appeared? Would Bush and Cheney be in jail, now, as war criminals? Would Kucinich have been elected President, resulting in a seriously aggressive move towards a green economy?

Although I'm asking a hypothetical question, the facts don't support Chomsky's delusionary commentary. (Let me hasten to make it clear that I'm a Chomsky fan, consider him brilliant, and highly ethical. However, he suffers from his own cult-like self delusions, being a human being, and all.) The 911 Truth Movement has basically zero support in Congress. AFAIK, there is no major peace organization that openly embraces 911 Truth. Even the left alternative media keeps 911 truth issues at an arm's length. Or did I miss Amy Goodman taking that nano-thermite paper to qualified experts in nano-thermites, for their expert opinion, or looking into Mohammed Atta's German and Dutch drug dealing/using buddies, or the (alleged) Saudi intelligence handers in San Diego, or Sibel Edmonds' latest claim of "an intimate relationship" with OBL? No? Didn't think so.

Chomsky is mostly spinning a tale out of his own imaginary cloth. Of course, I suppose that it's undeniable that many individuals involved with 911 Truth did waste their energy so far, having achieved basically nothing politically, beyond the 911 Commission (thank-you Jersey girls). But since people expending their energy in a way that Chomsky would approve of achieved so little, also, what exactly is his point? That had 911 Truthers invested their time and energy in the peace movement, environmental movement, or human rights movement, that by so doing have tipped the balance? Could we have been the straw that broke the camel's back??

Such an idea is laughable. You'll notice that Chomsky makes no such claim, but that begs the question - why does he care how 911 Truthers spent their time and energy, since it wouldn't have provided a margin of victory, anyway? Or am I wrong, and he would subscribe to such a laughable belief? Or, does he think that just working on an issue of which he approves of, and in a way that he approves of, is such an intrinsically wonderful thing that that is all that matters?

Now for my (hopefully :-) ) less self-deluded commentary, as compared to Chomsky's flight of fancy. This was in response to an article by Joel S. Hirschhorn, Ph.D. called "9/11 Mind Swell", wherein Dr. Hirschhorn makes some serious critism of the 911 Truth Movement.

=========================

I don't think it's disputable that the 911 Truth Movement (which is what I call 'high strangeness') has been marginalized, any more than the Peace Movement is basically marginalized. I don't see much political effect from either movement. The only serious threat to the status quo from the Peace Movement may come from within elites circles, who may take seriously the warning of, say, a Chalmers Johnson, of imperial exhaustion. I'm speaking hypothetically, though. I can't actually cite any individual in, say, the CFR who are championing Johnson's analysis.

A not so good point - if not awful - is "It is too easy to blame the mainstream media and political establishment for refusing to demand and pursue a truly comprehensive and credible independent scientific and engineering investigate"

To me, this is not "too" easy, at all - our media is a disgrace, and so is our political system. I don't think I really need to argue the point! We wouldn't need a 911 Truth Movement if those institutions had done their jobs.

Now, regarding his complaint of lacking an effective political strategy, I found this very interesting, because I agree with the statement, but a) Hirschhorn presents no compelling ideas about how to form an "effective strategy" b) he doesn't even try, himself, to draw any lessons from any other movement that may have had more success than the 911 Truth Movement, and suggest that those be investigated and c) has what I consider a limited goal, even if it is basically the same goal ("an official investigation") as most 911 Truthers

I think activists, in general, need to take a close look at what is not working, and why. IMO, the problems that activists face mostly boils down to their opposition's corruption by love of money and power. Power, I presume, is the strongest narcotic at the top of the elitest pyramid. For lesser players - e.g., the lobbyist who represents a selfish interest, who busily, even if subtly, corrupt our Senators and Representatives 7 days a week - it's mostly about money. They are whores, selling their souls and selling out the public, because it can make them a lot of money, and they love money.

I came to the conclusion years ago that we have systemic rot (i.e., corruption, though not typically of the overt, bribe-taking sort), and the key to fixing that system rot involves replacing gatekeepers - who are elected officials, in our system, at least to a first approximation - and bypassing and re-creating other corrupt, privately owned institutions, like the media. So, I don't hand out 911 CDs, even if I respect others who do so, and even if this represents a very limited form of bypassing the mainstream media. I also don't go to peace vigils, even though I attended a couple demonstrations before Bush's Iraq fiasco. I don't believe 911 is "the key", any more than I believe spreading knowledge of the JFK assassination is "the key".

I'm a very outside the box kind of guy, and I'm still in early stages of stuff I'm working on. For people who are looking to attack systemic rot by getting better people elected, but don't want to wait around for anything that I or other people are working on, I would recommend involvement with non-strange political movements such as Progressive Democrats of America and the Ron Paul variety of Republicans. (E.g., note that Rand Paul, Ron's son, is running for Senator).

While I believe that citizens should be looking at improving Democratic and Republican parties, and checking out 3rd parties, to make the most rapid progress in attacking systemic rot, it's only rational to form trans-partisan alliances. Right now, AFAIK, there is not a single transpartisan alliance which has an electoral strategy. (I could easily be wrong, so please correct me, if that's the case.) There's transpartisan efforts to develop solutions to particular problems, as described by Turner and Chickering in Voice of the People: TheTranspartisan Imperative in American Life. However, they apparently rely on lobbying existing Congress critters with their (hopefully) excellent, transpartisan solutions. Which means that, if their wonderful transpartisan solution is at odds with some strong lobby which has funneled a lot of contributors to the Congress critter X, then Congress critter X is not likely to give a hoot. (BTW, I have posted transpartisan references from Voice of the People here. Note, also, that a fairly recent polls showed independents at 39%, more than self-identified Republicans or Democrats.)

A web based infrastructure for facilitating the development of transpartisan voting blocs of citizens is inevitable. It's only a question of when.

When such an infrastructure becomes available, frustrated activists who can achieve a strong presence in the newly empowered electorate will find the going easier, and likely for the first time in their lives, productive. (What life or truth affirming movement that affects the fate of most of us has had stellar success in Washington? I frankly can't think of any. There's doubtless been some more limited successes, e.g. good laws mandating easy access for handicapped individuals. But I just don't see any strong successes ito peace, environment, global warming, sustainable, competitive economy, national healthcare, preventative healthcare, etc. - issues which affect either all of us, or millions upon millions of us.)

I don't think 911 Truth will be an early benefactor of an e-democracy infrastructure, because of the high-strangeness factor. However, getting rid of lots of crooks and carpetbaggers from the Federal Government will eventually lead to more transparency and accountability. The 911 Truth movement, being non-partisan in nature, could play a key role in ushering a new era, even if it has to wait it's turn to see results in terms of it's traditional goal.

I frankly can't imagine any faster route to a reformed government, nor any more effective use of 911 Truther's energy. (Please not that people needn't do one or the other. They could hand out a 911 CD, while also handing out a flyer asking individuals to join a voting bloc, e.g. Or, they could work with the Progressive Democrats of America, or try and get Rand Paul elected, and hand out some 911 CD's to their compatriots. Or vice versa, meaning they could have a table with 911 material, and also Progressive Democrat and Ron/Rand Paulista literature.) So, while I don't support trying to make 911 Truth an issue in the next Presidential election, I do support taking over Congress at the ballot box, with honorable people who might at least give a serious listen.
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Old 14th August 2009, 12:22 AM   #18
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911 TM - worst political movement of all time.

I agree with Noam.

Still think $100,000 keeps the media in my country quiet?
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Old 14th August 2009, 04:43 AM   #19
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edited

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Or vice versa, meaning they could have a table with 911 material, and also Progressive Democrat and Ron/Rand Paulista literature.) So, while I don't support trying to make 911 Truth an issue in the next Presidential election, I do support taking over Congress at the ballot box, with honorable people who might at least give a serious listen.
Progressive Democrats and Ron Paul, who is a Liberrtarian (one could say even a paleo conservative)? What a strange mix.

And how could 9/11 be a serious topic for a political party? Ultimately, it's one event, that happened 8 years ago. Talk about a one-issue party, this one isn't even relevant.

Last edited by Pardalis; 14th August 2009 at 04:51 AM.
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Old 14th August 2009, 04:50 AM   #20
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shocking but i meanwhile agree with Noam
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:05 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
shocking but i meanwhile agree with Noam
So I take it you're no longer a truther?
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
So I take it you're no longer a truther?
since months, but that went past you
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
since months, but that went past you
Congrats on your return to rationality.
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
Congrats on your return to rationality.
i didnt say im rational.
but not a truther anymore.
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:30 AM   #25
metamars
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
911 TM - worst political movement of all time.

I agree with Noam.

Still think $100,000 keeps the media in my country quiet?
Still think lying, distorting, and exhibiting a level of intellectual sophistication easily surpassed by most 10 years olds helps elucidate any subject, whatsoever?

You could have asked, "Still think $100,000 helps keep the media in my country quiet?", but most serial debunkers don't do nuance, unless it suits their purposes, do they?

Last edited by metamars; 14th August 2009 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
since months, but that went past you
what was the turning point? if you dont mind me asking
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
i didnt say im rational.
but not a truther anymore.
You don't consider yourself to be rational? Well, anyways, not being a twoofer anymore is big step towards becoming a rational person.
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
You could have asked, "Still think $100,000 helps keep the media in my country quiet?", but most serial debunkers don't do nuance, unless it suits their purposes, do they?
Do you think that $100k helps keep the media in his country quiet?
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Old 14th August 2009, 05:38 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Justin39640 View Post
what was the turning point? if you dont mind me asking
there was no turning point. i looked for evidence and didnt find any, instead i found explenations that convinced me over time.
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Old 14th August 2009, 06:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Are you saying that Simon Cowell is not an agent of evil?
Did I miss something, where did Simon Cowell come from?

Anyway, Gravy - I laughed and was shocked by your video. I live in the UK and found randi by way of links about global warming and debunking and so wasnt even aware of the Truthers. Since then I've sat reading the conspiracy debunking forums with an infatuation verging on addiction with complete disbelief and amazement that such blatant idiocy and ignorance could even exists, and with a constant urge to keep shouting at the monitor. I'd like to say well, thank you for doing it really. Im not even American but it gives me hope in humanity when such ignorance is directly addressed as it was in your film. (though, I have no doubt that it will have no effect on the perps). I'd like to think that I could do the same if I lived in NY, though some of those guys were a bit scary but then also realised I'd have to read all 10k pages of the NIST report.

Am I nuts to suggest that a normally thinking person wouldnt need to read that report to conclude that controlled demolition is completely nuts on so many levels, not to mention probably completely impossible to execute?

Do you think if we all just ignore them they will go away, eventually?
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Old 14th August 2009, 06:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
there was no turning point. i looked for evidence and didnt find any, instead i found explenations that convinced me over time.
See? I'm sure your world view and politics didn't change either, so it is indeed possible to admit 911 was not an inside job without compromising your beliefs.

Unless of course you've decided that Bush Jr was a great president. Then I'd start to get concerned
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Old 14th August 2009, 06:48 AM   #32
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Couple of points I thought of on metemars post:
Quote:
I credit the peace movement with getting us out of Vietnam sooner than would have occured, otherwise. Aside from that, I can't think of any war or covert action that was prevented or curtailed by the Peace Movement
Not sure what you are trying to say actually. Are you suggesting that movements such as the peace movement has no effect so people should stop demonstrating?

In my opinion, if the peace movement was responsible for curtailing the Vietnam war, then I believe it was highly successful. If it helped prevent even one death in that conflict then their actions were not wasted. Its odd how you dismiss that as a small "aside" that doesn’t really count.

I also believe that its not always obvious perhaps what impact movements like the peace movement have. Even the act of providing an opposing view to stimulate debate can have ramifications in the details of what follows (laws being amended before being passed, compensations delivered etc.)

Also, its probably not possible to say where history would have taken us if the peace movements hadn't existed. Perhaps nuclear deployment in vietnam? And what about the peace movement in the US in the 1950's associated with the black freedom marches. Didn't they have a direct impact on the civil rights of black people?
Quote:
Another way to think of this is: What wonderful thing would have happened, had the 911 Truth Movement not appeared? Would Bush and Cheney be in jail, now, as war criminals? Would Kucinich have been elected President, resulting in a seriously aggressive move towards a green economy?
I didnt interpret it in that way. I think he means that from the mass media down to what families may talk about around the dinner table, or what guys may talk about down their local watering hole, while they are talking about controlled demolition or holographic images they are not considering/talking/debating real issues. I would think there is probably more discussion around 911 conspiracy than whether the occupation/help of/in Afghanistan is legal/requested. Its not what the idiot truthers may or may not have done, its the endless mess and confusion they create clouding out the real debate.

Chomsky's getting old, give him a break.

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Old 14th August 2009, 06:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Did I miss something, where did Simon Cowell come from?
Brighton, apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Cowell

Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Do you think if we all just ignore them they will go away, eventually?
I've tried that with Simon Cowell. Hasn't worked yet.

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Old 14th August 2009, 06:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
i looked for evidence and didnt find any, instead i found explenations that convinced me over time.
You didn't just look for evidence, by just looking at your posts when you first got here, you were extremely arrogant and attacked Gravy.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=111836
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=114032

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Old 14th August 2009, 07:07 AM   #35
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Quote:
Brighton, apparently.
ya, very good (applause). I mean where did his name come from in the discussion? Im hoping my love fest with the man isnt going to get curtailed because he's a nutjob truther.

Quote:
I've tried that with Simon Cowell. Hasn't worked yet.
Hay, he's our number one best British export (next to boy George). I mean we exported him to the USA.

Since country of birth is no longer acceptance criteria I recon he'll make you a good president one day. I mean he's good with kids.... and some animals. Singing in the bath will come compulsory, so don’t knock him.

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Old 14th August 2009, 08:02 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
there was no turning point. i looked for evidence and didnt find any, instead i found explenations that convinced me over time.
Wow. Cool.
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Old 14th August 2009, 08:05 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Still think lying, distorting, and exhibiting a level of intellectual sophistication easily surpassed by most 10 years olds helps elucidate any subject, whatsoever?

You could have asked, "Still think $100,000 helps keep the media in my country quiet?", but most serial debunkers don't do nuance, unless it suits their purposes, do they?

Well, does it help keep the BBC quiet on 911?

You are the one who posted the silly childish chart, not me.
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Old 16th August 2009, 12:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Although 'Uncle' Noam's analysis is superficial, and he seems every bit as much in denial about the political effectiveness of like-minded individuals (to himself) as some 911 Truthers are wrt their movement, he does raise (implicitly) the interesting question of the distraction of 911 Truthers from more effective political action.

My own comments related to this interesting question, in the form of a commentary on a recent 911blogger post, will follow shortly. But first....

But first I want to return 'Uncle Noam's' spanking, in the form of zeroeing in on what appears to be his own denial: perhaps somebody can step in and tell us what wonderful goals have been achieved by the Peace Movement? Before 9/11/2001? I credit the peace movement with getting us out of Vietnam sooner than would have occured, otherwise. Aside from that, I can't think of any war or covert action that was prevented or curtailed by the Peace Movement. Can anybody help me and Uncle Noam out, and come up with an example? I also think of the environmental movement as mostly a fail, though important legislation was passed in the 60's/70's, which is why you can drive on highways on CA, and the smog isn't so bad that your eyes tear up. (That's what it was like in the 60's).

Even so, the effort to stem environmental warming isn't going so well, now is it, 'Uncle Noam'? And that was the case before 9/11.

Another way to think of this is: What wonderful thing would have happened, had the 911 Truth Movement not appeared? Would Bush and Cheney be in jail, now, as war criminals? Would Kucinich have been elected President, resulting in a seriously aggressive move towards a green economy?

Although I'm asking a hypothetical question, the facts don't support Chomsky's delusionary commentary. (Let me hasten to make it clear that I'm a Chomsky fan, consider him brilliant, and highly ethical. However, he suffers from his own cult-like self delusions, being a human being, and all.) The 911 Truth Movement has basically zero support in Congress. AFAIK, there is no major peace organization that openly embraces 911 Truth. Even the left alternative media keeps 911 truth issues at an arm's length. Or did I miss Amy Goodman taking that nano-thermite paper to qualified experts in nano-thermites, for their expert opinion, or looking into Mohammed Atta's German and Dutch drug dealing/using buddies, or the (alleged) Saudi intelligence handers in San Diego, or Sibel Edmonds' latest claim of "an intimate relationship" with OBL? No? Didn't think so.

Chomsky is mostly spinning a tale out of his own imaginary cloth. Of course, I suppose that it's undeniable that many individuals involved with 911 Truth did waste their energy so far, having achieved basically nothing politically, beyond the 911 Commission (thank-you Jersey girls). But since people expending their energy in a way that Chomsky would approve of achieved so little, also, what exactly is his point? That had 911 Truthers invested their time and energy in the peace movement, environmental movement, or human rights movement, that by so doing have tipped the balance? Could we have been the straw that broke the camel's back??

Such an idea is laughable. You'll notice that Chomsky makes no such claim, but that begs the question - why does he care how 911 Truthers spent their time and energy, since it wouldn't have provided a margin of victory, anyway? Or am I wrong, and he would subscribe to such a laughable belief? Or, does he think that just working on an issue of which he approves of, and in a way that he approves of, is such an intrinsically wonderful thing that that is all that matters?

Now for my (hopefully :-) ) less self-deluded commentary, as compared to Chomsky's flight of fancy. This was in response to an article by Joel S. Hirschhorn, Ph.D. called "9/11 Mind Swell", wherein Dr. Hirschhorn makes some serious critism of the 911 Truth Movement.

=========================

I don't think it's disputable that the 911 Truth Movement (which is what I call 'high strangeness') has been marginalized, any more than the Peace Movement is basically marginalized. I don't see much political effect from either movement. The only serious threat to the status quo from the Peace Movement may come from within elites circles, who may take seriously the warning of, say, a Chalmers Johnson, of imperial exhaustion. I'm speaking hypothetically, though. I can't actually cite any individual in, say, the CFR who are championing Johnson's analysis.

A not so good point - if not awful - is "It is too easy to blame the mainstream media and political establishment for refusing to demand and pursue a truly comprehensive and credible independent scientific and engineering investigate"

To me, this is not "too" easy, at all - our media is a disgrace, and so is our political system. I don't think I really need to argue the point! We wouldn't need a 911 Truth Movement if those institutions had done their jobs.

Now, regarding his complaint of lacking an effective political strategy, I found this very interesting, because I agree with the statement, but a) Hirschhorn presents no compelling ideas about how to form an "effective strategy" b) he doesn't even try, himself, to draw any lessons from any other movement that may have had more success than the 911 Truth Movement, and suggest that those be investigated and c) has what I consider a limited goal, even if it is basically the same goal ("an official investigation") as most 911 Truthers

I think activists, in general, need to take a close look at what is not working, and why. IMO, the problems that activists face mostly boils down to their opposition's corruption by love of money and power. Power, I presume, is the strongest narcotic at the top of the elitest pyramid. For lesser players - e.g., the lobbyist who represents a selfish interest, who busily, even if subtly, corrupt our Senators and Representatives 7 days a week - it's mostly about money. They are whores, selling their souls and selling out the public, because it can make them a lot of money, and they love money.

I came to the conclusion years ago that we have systemic rot (i.e., corruption, though not typically of the overt, bribe-taking sort), and the key to fixing that system rot involves replacing gatekeepers - who are elected officials, in our system, at least to a first approximation - and bypassing and re-creating other corrupt, privately owned institutions, like the media. So, I don't hand out 911 CDs, even if I respect others who do so, and even if this represents a very limited form of bypassing the mainstream media. I also don't go to peace vigils, even though I attended a couple demonstrations before Bush's Iraq fiasco. I don't believe 911 is "the key", any more than I believe spreading knowledge of the JFK assassination is "the key".

I'm a very outside the box kind of guy, and I'm still in early stages of stuff I'm working on. For people who are looking to attack systemic rot by getting better people elected, but don't want to wait around for anything that I or other people are working on, I would recommend involvement with non-strange political movements such as Progressive Democrats of America and the Ron Paul variety of Republicans. (E.g., note that Rand Paul, Ron's son, is running for Senator).

While I believe that citizens should be looking at improving Democratic and Republican parties, and checking out 3rd parties, to make the most rapid progress in attacking systemic rot, it's only rational to form trans-partisan alliances. Right now, AFAIK, there is not a single transpartisan alliance which has an electoral strategy. (I could easily be wrong, so please correct me, if that's the case.) There's transpartisan efforts to develop solutions to particular problems, as described by Turner and Chickering in Voice of the People: TheTranspartisan Imperative in American Life. However, they apparently rely on lobbying existing Congress critters with their (hopefully) excellent, transpartisan solutions. Which means that, if their wonderful transpartisan solution is at odds with some strong lobby which has funneled a lot of contributors to the Congress critter X, then Congress critter X is not likely to give a hoot. (BTW, I have posted transpartisan references from Voice of the People here. Note, also, that a fairly recent polls showed independents at 39%, more than self-identified Republicans or Democrats.)

A web based infrastructure for facilitating the development of transpartisan voting blocs of citizens is inevitable. It's only a question of when.

When such an infrastructure becomes available, frustrated activists who can achieve a strong presence in the newly empowered electorate will find the going easier, and likely for the first time in their lives, productive. (What life or truth affirming movement that affects the fate of most of us has had stellar success in Washington? I frankly can't think of any. There's doubtless been some more limited successes, e.g. good laws mandating easy access for handicapped individuals. But I just don't see any strong successes ito peace, environment, global warming, sustainable, competitive economy, national healthcare, preventative healthcare, etc. - issues which affect either all of us, or millions upon millions of us.)

I don't think 911 Truth will be an early benefactor of an e-democracy infrastructure, because of the high-strangeness factor. However, getting rid of lots of crooks and carpetbaggers from the Federal Government will eventually lead to more transparency and accountability. The 911 Truth movement, being non-partisan in nature, could play a key role in ushering a new era, even if it has to wait it's turn to see results in terms of it's traditional goal.

I frankly can't imagine any faster route to a reformed government, nor any more effective use of 911 Truther's energy. (Please not that people needn't do one or the other. They could hand out a 911 CD, while also handing out a flyer asking individuals to join a voting bloc, e.g. Or, they could work with the Progressive Democrats of America, or try and get Rand Paul elected, and hand out some 911 CD's to their compatriots. Or vice versa, meaning they could have a table with 911 material, and also Progressive Democrat and Ron/Rand Paulista literature.) So, while I don't support trying to make 911 Truth an issue in the next Presidential election, I do support taking over Congress at the ballot box, with honorable people who might at least give a serious listen.

RAND Paul


I am no fan of Noam Chomsky whatsoever, but the 9/11 Truth Movment is one of the few things he is correct about.
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Old 16th August 2009, 01:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
there was no turning point. i looked for evidence and didnt find any, instead i found explenations that convinced me over time.
If every new truther were so honest, there would not be any.
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Old 16th August 2009, 02:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And Chomsky had better be careful about accusing others of being totaltarian,considering his unending attempts to whitewash the Pol Pot regime.

False.

Accusations of Chomsky being some sort of apologist for Pol Pot or other dictators are nothing more than slander disingenuously manufactured by a few individuals on that Right looking to discredit Chomsky. They couldn't critique him with the truth so they distort what he said and remove it from context.

For more info you can here: http://www.flagrancy.net/khmerchomsky.html

Or just go to www.chomsky.info and serch for Pol Pot or Khmer Rouge or anything else and find out what Chomsky actually has to say about it. As opposed to what some right-wing critic wants you to think Chomsky has to say about it.
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