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Tags Washington DC issues , Washington DC politics

View Poll Results: Should DC get Statehood?
Yes. 60 84.51%
No. 11 15.49%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 29th June 2020, 04:49 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Trying to tease out the difference between the unfairness in Wyoming having outsized representation and (the proposed)DC having outsized representation?
*Very slowly, as if speaking to a young child*

Because at least then DC would have some representation. 700,000 people have no voice in government is not acceptable.

And I don't want to the people in DC or Wyoming to have misappropriate representation either.

I'm not playing your "Which problem are we fixing now?" game. Grow up.

I brought up Wyoming to show that DC getting "unfair representation" isn't really what you are concerned about, that you pretending to be concerned about DC "stealing representative power" is just a lie you use to sea lion the discussion. Because if it was true you'd care about Wyoming doing it. But Wyoming is full of good Republican white people and DC full of dirty brown libruls.

I want every Senator and Representative and EC College vote in America to represent exactly the same number of people. Anything else is unfair.

Now please go back to pretending you don't understand.
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:53 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In the meantime, you'll take those Senate votes in Wyoming, Idaho, ND, SD, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Alaska that keeps the minority in power. The minority power that allowed McConnell not to consider Obama's Supreme Court nominee and push through Trump's troglodytes. The minority power that pushed through tax cuts for the wealthy. The minority power that is holding up over 500 pieces of legislation. There are also the EC votes.

As I said, your position is convenient and not surprising.
Is there something intrinsically wrong with having a minority in power?
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:55 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly, as if speaking to a young child*

Because at least then DC would have some representation. 700,000 people have no voice in government is not acceptable.

And I don't want to the people in DC or Wyoming to have misappropriate representation either.

I'm not playing your "Which problem are we fixing now?" game. Grow up.

I brought up Wyoming to show that DC getting "unfair representation" isn't really what you are concerned about, that you pretending to be concerned about DC "stealing representative power" is just a lie you use to sea lion the discussion. Because if it was true you'd care about Wyoming doing it. But Wyoming is full of good Republican white people and DC full of dirty brown libruls.
I want every Senator and Representative and EC College vote in America to represent exactly the same number of people. Anything else is unfair.

Now please go back to pretending you don't understand.

Do you though?

FWIW My internet was down when The Senate was created, so I couldn't vote "no" on an Internet poll asking if 1/2 million people should get the same representation as 30 million. Sorry, Comcasts fault.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:07 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Reducing the relative representative power of all of the citizens of 48 of the 50 States and that of the rural residents of the remaining two, is a bit more than "so" IMO
Giving DC residents voting rights at all reduces the relative representative power of all other citizens from every state. This framing is just foolish.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:10 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post


Do you though?

FWIW My internet was down when The Senate was created, so I couldn't vote "no" on an Internet poll asking if 1/2 million people should get the same representation as 30 million. Sorry, Comcasts fault.
You so funny.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:20 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Reducing the relative representative power of all of the citizens of 48 of the 50 States and that of the rural residents of the remaining two, is a bit more than "so" IMO
If Paul pays Peter $500, then it's true that Paul is poorer. So why would he give up the cash? Because it was stolen from Peter. All of the states make decisions that affect DC. Statehood/legislative representation is about remedying an unfair situation.

Footnote: The Founders did not anticipate political parties and believed states would vote purely for their own interests, but we obviously have factions within states (you mentioned rural vs. urban). We also have national parties that can "grab" power by adulterating their vote share. Essentially, we have a set of institutions that are not well-suited for ideologically distinct political parties.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:27 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And this is a tyr classic: miss the point on purpose.

If non-proportional representation in the senate is a problem, then itís a problem regardless of race. If making DC a state improves representation, then it does so regardless of race. You donít need race to make any of these arguments in favor of DC statehood. The race angle is the worst argument in favor of it.

And yet, itís the go to one. Because once you subscribe to identity politics, it becomes all-consuming. As I said, identity politics is cancer.
What a strange way to confirm I was correct.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:02 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What a strange way to confirm I was correct.
What a strange way to admit you have no actual argument.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:19 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Giving DC residents voting rights at all reduces the relative representative power of all other citizens from every state. This framing is just foolish.
Nonsense.
Attach DC to Wyoming and what happens to the relative voice of the citizens of the other 49 States? It becomes more balanced. Not by much- but the needle moves in the direction of greater equality of representation in the Senate for everyone ( even the citizens of Wyoming )
Make DC a State and the needle moves in the opposite direction, and to a much greater degree.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:23 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If Paul pays Peter $500, then it's true that Paul is poorer. So why would he give up the cash? Because it was stolen from Peter. All of the states make decisions that affect DC. Statehood/legislative representation is about remedying an unfair situation.

Footnote: The Founders did not anticipate political parties and believed states would vote purely for their own interests, but we obviously have factions within states (you mentioned rural vs. urban). We also have national parties that can "grab" power by adulterating their vote share. Essentially, we have a set of institutions that are not well-suited for ideologically distinct political parties.
There are remedies to the situation that do not involve "robbing" anybody.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:27 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Nonsense.
Attach DC to Wyoming and what happens to the relative voice of the citizens of the other 49 States? It becomes more balanced. Not by much- but the needle moves in the direction of greater equality of representation in the Senate for everyone ( even the citizens of Wyoming )
Make DC a State and the needle moves in the opposite direction, and to a much greater degree.
The issue isn't just DC and Wyoming. And you know it.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:30 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The issue isn't just DC and Wyoming. And you know it.
Hence the italicized "everyone" in the post.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:31 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
There are remedies to the situation that do not involve "robbing" anybody.
Nobody is robbing anyone. You're analogy doesn't work.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:33 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Hence the italicized "everyone" in the post.
The issue isn't how you're representing it to be either.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:43 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Attach DC to Wyoming and what happens to the relative voice of the citizens of the other 49 States?
Somebody loses a representative is what happens. The relative voting power of other citizens is diminished by virtue of adding 700,000 new voters to the roles. This is unavoidable, and is not an injustice.

The Senate of course is an undemocratic institution. There's absolutely no principled reason to hold the representation of the residents of DC hostage until that problem is resolved.

I've already pointed out that if you're worried about malapportionment in the Senate, this is also a problem in admitting Puerto Rico. Which you ignored, because you're just making this up as you go along.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:53 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Somebody loses a representative is what happens. The relative voting power of other citizens is diminished by virtue of adding 700,000 new voters to the roles. This is unavoidable, and is not an injustice.

The Senate of course is an undemocratic institution. There's absolutely no principled reason to hold the representation of the residents of DC hostage until that problem is resolved.

I've already pointed out that if you're worried about malapportionment in the Senate, this is also a problem in admitting Puerto Rico. Which you ignored, because you're just making this up as you go along.
You seem to be conflating "voting power" with relative representation in the Senate- which is what the discussion was about.

Increasing the population of an over represented State reduces the imbalance.
Introducing a new State that is near the mean population is nearly neutral.
Introducing a new State that is far below the mean (like Wyoming) Increases the imbalance, and to a much greater degree than either of the other changes.

You are trying to push the needle towards greater unfairness to greater numbers.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:50 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You seem to be conflating "voting power" with relative representation in the Senate- which is what the discussion was about.
Forgive me for responding to what you said.

Quote:
Increasing the population of an over represented State reduces the imbalance.
What is "the balance"? My problem with the Senate is that New York has ~6% of the country's population and 2% of the votes in the Senate. California has ~12% and 2% of the vote. That doesn't change with Wyoming DC. It only reduces the absurdity of Wyoming getting 2% of the vote with less than 0.2% of the population. Now they'd have 0.5% of the population! The upshot would be that everyone would point to Vermont instead of Wyoming to illustrate the absurdity of the least populous state getting the same number of votes as the most.

But these ratios aren't really why this is a problem--the systematic bias in favor of the demographics that live in depopulated areas is. Admission of DC reduces that imbalance, improves the situation by shifting power slightly back towards urban voters, makes the affirmative-action-for-the-white-Christian-majority problem slightly less bad.

But what's the relevance? Attaching DC to Maryland is not a reasonable option. Attaching DC to Wyoming is just not even worth an eye roll. You're left with a choice between giving DC disproportionate power in the Senate (which 32 other states currently enjoy), or giving them no representation at all.

Quote:
You are trying to push the needle towards greater unfairness to greater numbers.
No, I'm saying DC residents deserve representation, that statehood is the only reasonable path forward, and I'm declining to lay the malignant design of the Senate at their feet, because it has nothing to do with them.

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Old 30th June 2020, 04:50 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Forgive me for responding to what you said.


What is "the balance"? My problem with the Senate is that New York has ~6% of the country's population and 2% of the votes in the Senate. California has ~12% and 2% of the vote. That doesn't change with Wyoming DC. It only reduces the absurdity of Wyoming getting 2% of the vote with less than 0.2% of the population. Now they'd have 0.5% of the population! The upshot would be that everyone would point to Vermont instead of Wyoming to illustrate the absurdity of the least populous state getting the same number of votes as the most.

But these ratios aren't really why this is a problem--the systematic bias in favor of the demographics that live in depopulated areas is. Admission of DC reduces that imbalance, improves the situation by shifting power slightly back towards urban voters, makes the affirmative-action-for-the-white-Christian-majority problem slightly less bad.
Fun fact: Wyoming voters are 2/3rds urban. By giving Wyoming such a huge share of the electoral college, you are giving a mostly urban state a lot of power.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:53 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Nonsense.
Attach DC to Wyoming and what happens to the relative voice of the citizens of the other 49 States? It becomes more balanced. Not by much- but the needle moves in the direction of greater equality of representation in the Senate for everyone ( even the citizens of Wyoming )
Make DC a State and the needle moves in the opposite direction, and to a much greater degree.
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Nonsense would look at this and go "That's some nonsense."

Again, for the hard of thinking, making things fair is not unfair to those it was unfairly balanced in favor of.

Now just do your sad little "Okay then, prove to me unfairness is bad" shift in the argument again.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:09 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What a strange way to admit you have no actual argument.
Zigg we all admit the man was choking on a T-Bone and not a porterhouse. We just don't care because this is a discussion about what to do to the choking man, not a discussion about what cut of steak he was choking on.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:27 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Fun fact: Wyoming voters are 2/3rds urban. By giving Wyoming such a huge share of the electoral college, you are giving a mostly urban state a lot of power.
Almost every US state is "mostly urban", for the not terribly surprising reason that people live in population centers, so this is irrelevant. Alaska is more urbanized than Wyoming. The US overall is 80% urban, so giving Wyoming disproportionate power shifts power towards rural voters.

I'll also point out that the census bureau is fairly generous about what it considers to be 'urban'. A town of 3,000 is an "urban cluster" according to the census. Most of us would call that a small town.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:31 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Almost every US state is "mostly urban", for the not terribly surprising reason that people live in population centers, so this is irrelevant. Alaska is more urbanized than Wyoming. The US overall is 80% urban, so giving Wyoming disproportionate power shifts power towards rural voters.

I'll also point out that the census bureau is fairly generous about what it considers to be 'urban'. A town of 3,000 is an "urban cluster" according to the census. Most of us would call that a small town.
But because of the shift to Wyoming, it disproportionately benefits urban voters of Wyoming which is most of their voters. I think your issue is mischaracterized as urban/rural.

I also place no weight on the fact that you want to invoke your personal definition of urban. I got in a similar argument recently when I was explaining the most conservative Congress members come from urban areas and they didn't believe me.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:33 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Nonsense would look at this and go "That's some nonsense."

Again, for the hard of thinking, making things fair is not unfair to those it was unfairly balanced in favor of.

Now just do your sad little "Okay then, prove to me unfairness is bad" shift in the argument again.
Is the Senate unfairly balanced in the favor of the populations of California, New York, Illinois, Texas, and Florida?

You are asserting that it is, if you are suggesting that creating another micro-State with the same representation is making things "more fair" for them.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:42 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But because of the shift to Wyoming, it disproportionately benefits urban voters of Wyoming which is most of their voters. I think your issue is mischaracterized as urban/rural.
It benefits each of Wyoming's voters equally. A voter in Jackson Hole has the same voting power as a voter in Lost Springs. There's nothing to discuss here, because there's no distortion of the vote interal to Wyoming.

But the disproportionately rural voters of Wyoming get disproportionate power. Meaning that Senate does in fact exhibit a bias towards rural voters.

Quote:
I also place no weight on the fact that you want to invoke your personal definition of urban. I got in a similar argument recently when I was explaining the most conservative Congress members come from urban areas and they didn't believe me.
I'm not invoking my personal definition of urban. I'm invoking the common definition of urban--having to do with a city.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:07 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
It benefits each of Wyoming's voters equally. A voter in Jackson Hole has the same voting power as a voter in Lost Springs. There's nothing to discuss here, because there's no distortion of the vote interal to Wyoming.

But the disproportionately rural voters of Wyoming get disproportionate power. Meaning that Senate does in fact exhibit a bias towards rural voters.


I'm not invoking my personal definition of urban. I'm invoking the common definition of urban--having to do with a city.
Cities are as small as a couple thousand people.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:08 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Cities are as small as a couple thousand people.
And? You're preoccupied with definitions rather than understanding the data.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:22 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is the Senate unfairly balanced in the favor of the populations of California, New York, Illinois, Texas, and Florida?
Sure if you read what I say and go "So... you're saying the exact opposite?" is the argumentative style you want to go with, sure knock yourself out.

Smaller population states have the unfair advantage. I will not repeat this point again so you can pretend to not understand it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:31 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
And? You're preoccupied with definitions rather than understanding the data.
The data says what you call a small town is wrong.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:32 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sure if you read what I say and go "So... you're saying the exact opposite?" is the argumentative style you want to go with, sure knock yourself out.

Smaller population states have the unfair advantage. I will not repeat this point again so you can pretend to not understand it.
I agree with the highlighted.
Which is why I don't support creating another State with an unfair advantage.

You are persistently arguing against the fairness of your own argument, then making references to others being "slow thinkers". I find that pretty laughable.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:41 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree with the highlighted.
Which is why I don't support creating another State with an unfair advantage.
Because you're dishonestly having two discussions at once and playing stupid when people explain the difference to you over and over and over and over and over.

Giving DC meaningful representation is supposed to fix the problem that the 700,000 people don't have any kind of representation at all.

Unfair representation is an entire different problem that was brought up to show that how dishonest you are about what you are pretending the problem you are having with giving DC that representation is.

This has been explained to you multiple times. Please go "Hur... dur explain it again I wasn't listening" for the hundredth time.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:47 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The data says what you call a small town is wrong.
No, it doesn't. The census defines "urban clusters" and "urbanized areas". Why do you think it makes that distinction?

The answer is because it captures the distinction between small towns and cities, and allows the data to reflect that.

The census bureau doesn't provide a formal definition of "urban" at all.

Again, you are preoccupied with definitions, which are just definitions, and totally uninterested in what the data actually shows. Worse, you weaponize these misunderstandings so you can say things that just aren't true, and then brag about saying them, because getting things completely wrong is a badge of honor for you.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:53 AM   #272
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
But the disproportionately rural voters of Wyoming get disproportionate power. Meaning that Senate does in fact exhibit a bias towards rural voters.
I'm going to have to see the math on this. I don't have the calculation for every state, but here is a two state example.

California 95% urban, 39.5 million people, that means 2 million rural people.

Wyoming, 65% urban, 0.6 million people, that mean 0.2 million rural.

It would take an extremely large increase in Wyoming voter power to offset small California dilution for rural voters to come out ahead.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:53 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
No, it doesn't. The census defines "urban clusters" and "urbanized areas". Why do you think it makes that distinction?

The answer is because it captures the distinction between small towns and cities, and allows the data to reflect that.

The census bureau doesn't provide a formal definition of "urban" at all.

Again, you are preoccupied with definitions, which are just definitions, and totally uninterested in what the data actually shows. Worse, you weaponize these misunderstandings so you can say things that just aren't true, and then brag about saying them, because getting things completely wrong is a badge of honor for you.
You're getting "bobbed". A whirlpool of the trivial and inane is sure to suck you under.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:05 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm going to have to see the math on this.
California has 68 times the population of Wyoming, meaning that Wyoming has 68 times the voting power in the Senate we would except from a proportionate body. Multiply 0.2 million by 68. That's the voting power of Wyoming's rural population relative to California's two million. Wyoming's rural population has about seven times the voting power of California's despite there being one tenth as many of them.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:12 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
California has 68 times the population of Wyoming, meaning that Wyoming has 68 times the voting power in the Senate we would except from a proportionate body. Multiply 0.2 million by 68. That's the voting power of Wyoming's rural population relative to California's two million. Wyoming's rural population has about seven times the voting power of California's despite there being one tenth as many of them.
So what is the differential when we factor in all 50 states? As I said, this was a two state example and I didnt have a calculation for all 50.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:20 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So what is the differential when we factor in all 50 states? As I said, this was a two state example and I didnt have a calculation for all 50.
Why would I do this work? You'd just start talking about how the states are sovereign nations again.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:24 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're getting "bobbed". A whirlpool of the trivial and inane is sure to suck you under.
We need to stop calling that "Bobbed" and start calling "Most all arguments these days."
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:25 AM   #278
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Why would I do this work? You'd just start talking about how the states are sovereign nations again.
Why do anything ever? I can't answer that question for you.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:33 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why do anything ever? I can't answer that question for you.
I'd do this work in to persuade someone of something. It's not possible to persuade you of anything with data, because your engagement with the empirical is disingenuous. You don't actually care what the data shows about the skew in voting power, because you've accepted a non-empirical claim that the states are sovereign nations. So there's no point in chewing your food for you--you'll just spit it out.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:38 AM   #280
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I'd do this work in to persuade someone of something. It's not possible to persuade you of anything with data, because your engagement with the empirical is disingenuous. You don't actually care what the data shows about the skew in voting power, because you've accepted a non-empirical claim that the states are sovereign nations. So there's no point in chewing your food for you--you'll just spit it out.
Because I have the position that states are sovereign, I'm indifferent to the urban/rural distribution of Senate votes. Which is why if asked, I'm happy to tell people how the Senate favors rural voters.
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