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Old 29th June 2020, 07:16 PM   #121
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
But don't call him a transphobe because hurting the feelings of deadnaming, harassing, misgendering clownshoes is the real problem in much the same way as being accused of racism is more important than racism.
I might ask for some evidence that Linehan actually did these three things but it would probably be too much to ask nowadays. I shall have to take it on faith.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:33 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
But don't call him a transphobe because hurting the feelings of deadnaming, harassing, misgendering clownshoes is the real problem in much the same way as being accused of racism is more important than racism.
In this thread people who have said that they don't consider transwomen to be the same as women have been called transphobic. Is this your position? If not, what behaviour or beliefs constitute transphobia?

It's very easy to throw that word around in an attempt to shut people up without saying clearly saying what they are guilty of.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:34 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I might ask for some evidence that Linehan actually did these three things but it would probably be too much to ask nowadays. I shall have to take it on faith.
tyr_13: could we have some evidence that Linehan did the three things that d4m10n mentions?

(Seriously, just ask for evidence instead of that kind of thing).
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:37 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
In this thread people who have said that they don't consider that transwomen to be the same as women have been called transphobic. Is this your position? If not, what behaviour or beliefs constitute transphobia?

It's very easy to throw that word around in an attempt to shut people up without saying clearly saying what they are guilty of.
Acting on that belief by trying to deny women their civil rights and protections, or harassing them continually, among other actions certainly is transphobic (or trans exclusionary, whatever term you like better I guess). Things Linehan did.

The elevation of the harms of being accused, rightly or wrongly, of transphobia is silly and pales in comparison to the harms those trans haters cause to trans gender people.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:40 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
tyr_13: could we have some evidence that Linehan did the three things that d4m10n mentions?

(Seriously, just ask for evidence instead of that kind of thing).
Sure. https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/oct/07/graham-linehan-police-warning-complaint-by-stephanie-hayden-transgender-activist-twitter

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/1...azi-holocaust/
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:57 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Acting on that belief by trying to deny women their civil rights and protections, or harassing them continually, among other actions certainly is transphobic (or trans exclusionary, whatever term you like better I guess). Things Linehan did.
Your claim. You need to prove it. Holding a belief that transwomen are not women does not deny any civil rights and protections. If you think expressing such beliefs is harassment, well you might be right. I doubt that too many people feel so strongly about this issue to go to the extent of harassing any transpeople, and if some of this very small group go to the extent of violence or threats of violence, then they stand condemned. Transphobic by definition.

But from what I've seen Linehan has done nothing but express opinions, and opinions which are widely shared, outside of twitter and some internet forums of course.....
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:14 PM   #127
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It is what it is. Can’t do anything about this.

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Old 30th June 2020, 01:13 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
From what I can gather from the reviews, Ben Elton, the man who cancelled Benny Hill, doesn't like cancel culture.

From what I can gather from the rest of the world, the man who cancelled Benny Hill was somebody else:

Quote:
John Howard Davies, the head of Light Entertainment at Thames Television, was cited by the British press as the man who sacked Benny Hill when the company decided not to renew his contract. Having become a hate figure among fans of the show, Davies appeared in an episode about Hill transmitted as part of the documentary series Living Famously, and stated he cancelled the show for three reasons: "The audiences were going down, the programme was costing a vast amount of money, and he (Hill) was looking a little tired."
Benny Hill: The Benny Hill Show (Wikipedia)

In my opinion, the Benny Hill Show was one of the world's most boring attempts to do TV comedy, but I'm aware that other people think it's funny.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:03 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Strawman. Don't play that game.
Then why did you mention that it was "true by definition" as if that was significant, even-though that really only means it's true according the the definition you were using? The definition which you didn't even bother to define? You have never managed to produce any good reason for refusing to recognizing trans-women as women.

Insisting on essentialist definitions is a hallmark of exclusionst discrimination whether it's in the form of racism, homophobia or transphobia. Publicly doing so completely unprompted in a way as to ridicule trans people is certainly transphobic and there's nothing subtle or innocent about it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:13 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
But from what I've seen Linehan has done nothing but express opinions, and opinions which are widely shared, outside of twitter and some internet forums of course.....
If he really cared he should've learned how to express his opinions without making inflammatory and bigoted comments completely unprompted. Acting like he was just innocently stating his opinion is just ridiculous.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:18 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I didn't say "unbelievable", so why are you asking this?
Because you said trolls cannot be sincere. They can. I don't know in this particular case, but in general they absolutely can.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:20 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If he really cared he should've learned how to express his opinions without making inflammatory and bigoted comments completely unprompted.
I'll grant inflammatory, but bigoted? I don't think so.

But even so, the key words here are "opinions" and "comments". Everyone has the right to both of these things unless they are proven to be illegal.

And unprompted? Do you need to be prompted to post stuff? Even stuff people find distasteful?

I think you really need to think through the whole freedom of speech thing. You can be as inflammatory and unpopular as you want and still express yourself.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:36 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
2012 was a long time ago. Just like most other social media companies, they realized that allowing their platform to become a free-for-all is not amenable to their business interests.

It's no coincidence that places that have the bare minimum of moderation, mostly for legal compliance, quickly become hostile hellscapes like 4-chan or Gab.

In related news:

Parler, a twitter alternative that advertised as a free-speech haven, is justifying dragnet banning of non-conservative users. Which is their prerogative and probably makes the platform more enjoyable for the conservative freaks crying about Twitter that are the target audience, but the hypocrisy is pretty stark.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...snt-like.shtml
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:49 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Your claim. You need to prove it. Holding a belief that transwomen are not women does not deny any civil rights and protections. If you think expressing such beliefs is harassment, well you might be right. I doubt that too many people feel so strongly about this issue to go to the extent of harassing any transpeople, and if some of this very small group go to the extent of violence or threats of violence, then they stand condemned. Transphobic by definition.

But from what I've seen Linehan has done nothing but express opinions, and opinions which are widely shared, outside of twitter and some internet forums of course.....
Yea like you real men and homosexuals. Nothing biased about that. Just like real americans vs african americans also not a belief that denies anyone their civil rights.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:51 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Then why did you mention that it was "true by definition" as if that was significant, even-though that really only means it's true according the the definition you were using? The definition which you didn't even bother to define?
The colloquial definition of woman has clearly not included people born with testicles and a penis for the majority of recorded history. Isn't your issue that you want trans-women to count as women, rather than that you are confused about Belz's definition.

The ambiguity in definitions has always struck me to be on the other side. Depending on who you talk to, the trans-women who are "women" could mean anything from somebody who has lived as a "women" for years, has been medically diagnosed, has had surgery, and is on hormones.... to someone who looks like Eddie Hall, has not been professionally diagnosed, and has no intention of getting surgery, taking hormones, or living as a "woman".

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Old 30th June 2020, 04:54 AM   #136
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Setting aside "men aren't women" comments from Glinner, which in the right context is a decent expression of the TERF position, what about Glinner's habit of referring to people by their previous names?

People can change their names for a variety of reasons. Doing so is usually a formal, legal process. I can't think of any environment where calling someone by a formally abandoned name, despite knowing their real name, wouldn't be considered deliberately toxic behavior.

Linehan was a troll. He finally caused Twitter enough headache that they decided to axe him. Given Twitter's history of being very permissive of bad behavior, it's quite an accomplishment. Even Richard Spencer has figured out how to keep it between the lines of acceptable behavior, and he's an open white supremacist.

Twitter is very tolerant of most ideology. They are less tolerant of deliberate trolling.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:05 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Would you consider it "deadnaming" to look into the background of an individual to see if they happen to have a long history of "offences of dishonesty" or disorderly behaviour? That sort of thing seems relevant enough to me, when dealing with a public-facing moral entrepreneurWP, but personal history is henceforth that which cannot be named?
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:05 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Then why did you mention that it was "true by definition" as if that was significant, even-though that really only means it's true according the the definition you were using?
That is a LOT of assumptions you're making. The quoted here is an exemplar of exactly why it's so difficult to have a conversation on this forum and elsewhere. You didn't even bother to try to understand on your own what the definition of "trans" is, and you then simply assumed I was using a personalised definition without asking, just because you're ignorant of said definition.

The word "trans" means that the word following it is not the same as it would be by itself. By definition, trans women are not women because that's what the word means. If they were women you wouldn't need the modifier.

What YOU need to define is the word "woman". That's something that has been very difficult to get an answer for despite the fact that a working definition has been available for millennia.

Quote:
Insisting on essentialist definitions is a hallmark of exclusionst discrimination whether it's in the form of racism, homophobia or transphobia.
There's nothing exclusionary about making factual statements. If you think there is, then you are of the opinion that facts are against you.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:37 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

The word "trans" means that the word following it is not the same as it would be by itself. By definition, trans women are not women because that's what the word means. If they were women you wouldn't need the modifier.
This is a very strange argument. Language is defined by usage and says very little about the facts of the world. People in power often define their own attributes as "default" and other people as "special cases".

For the longest time, white people referred to all non-whites as "colored", which clearly assumes that white skin is the default. Heterosexual people referred to homosexuals as "queer", indicating a belief that being gay was a deviation from the expected norm. The entire history of "hyphenated" Americans, which largely only applies to non-WASP Americans, clearly shows a belief that non-English descendants aren't "real" Americans.

An argument from common usage of language is just a roundabout argument from authority or an appeal to the majority.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:38 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is a very strange argument.
That's because it's a fact, not an argument.

Quote:
Language is defined by usage and says very little about the facts of the world.
Be my guest: provide another definition of the word "trans".

Quote:
An argument from common usage of language is just a roundabout argument from authority or an appeal to the majority.
That's pretty ******* silly. It's just an excuse to ignore the clear meaning of the words we use to communicate ideas clearly.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:40 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I think you really need to think through the whole freedom of speech thing. You can be as inflammatory and unpopular as you want and still express yourself.
You'd think someone who has been given multiple sanctions on twitter would know that this is not the case and people can't be offensive, inflammatory jerks with complete impunity.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:40 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's because it's a fact, not an argument.



Be my guest: provide another definition of the word "trans".
Are you just conveniently ignoring the existence of "cis-women" as a descriptor? I suppose you could take the view that there are "transwomen" and "real women", but that's a judgement call on your part. Of course, this is what TERFs like Glinner are implicitly stating when they deliberately misgender trans women as men.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:43 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea like you real men and homosexuals. Nothing biased about that. Just like real americans vs african americans also not a belief that denies anyone their civil rights.
I have no idea why this post has anything to do with mine.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:43 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are you just conveniently ignoring the existence of "cis-women" as a descriptor?
Nope, I didn't. Again, you demonstrate ignorance of definitions.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:45 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What YOU need to define is the word "woman".
No you were the one who brought up that it was "true by definition". Why do you refuse to define "woman"?
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:47 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No you were the one who brought up that it was "true by definition". Why do you refuse to define "woman" even-though you brought it up?
I didn't bring it up. It's "trans" I was talking about. You completely missed my clear explanation about how that word changes the word it's attached to. You didn't even read it for comprehension.

The problem we're discussing in this thread is not with the word "trans", it's that other people's attempt to redefine "woman", which is why I asked for a definition.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:52 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The problem we're discussing in this thread is not with the word "trans", it's that other people's attempt to redefine "woman", which is why I asked for a definition.
You said that trans women are not women by definition but instead of defining your own terms it's my responsibility? What the ****.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:55 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You said that trans women are not women by definition but instead of defining your own terms it's my responsibility? What the ****.
I said trans women are not women because of the definition of the word "trans". So it makes no sense to ask me to define "woman".

What I want to know is what do YOU consider to be a "woman", since you think the "trans" modifier makes no difference. This isn't supposed to be complicated to understand.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:56 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I have no idea why this post has anything to do with mine.
These are about traditional definitions and hence ones that should be continued. They are in no way bigoted.
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:59 AM   #150
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By the way, since it apparently escapes some people, one can speak of "African women", "Asian women" or "German women" without implying that they are not "women". The same applies to "disabled women", "tall women", "fat women" and so forth.

Trans women are women as far as I'm concerned but there are obviously cases where specifically mentioning that they are trans is important. Specifying that one is discussing women who are trans obviously does not imply that they are any less of a woman than any other.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:02 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
By the way, since it apparently escapes some people, one can speak of "African women", "Asian women" or "German women" without implying that they are not "women". The same applies to "disabled women", "tall women", "fat women" and so forth.

Trans women are women as far as I'm concerned but there are obviously cases where specifically mentioning that they are trans is important. Specifying that one is discussing women who are trans obviously does not imply that they are any less of a woman than any other.
This whole thing smacks of virtue signalling by the reactionary right. It's like the whole "civil union" gambit to counter gay marriage in previous years. Even as the cede the issue, they want to ensure they can register their moral opprobrium by guarding language.

There's a desire by some to ensure that language is coded to signify disgust towards the "other".
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:05 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
By the way, since it apparently escapes some people, one can speak of "African women", "Asian women" or "German women" without implying that they are not "women". The same applies to "disabled women", "tall women", "fat women" and so forth.

Trans women are women as far as I'm concerned but there are obviously cases where specifically mentioning that they are trans is important. Specifying that one is discussing women who are trans obviously does not imply that they are any less of a woman than any other.
This is utterly ridiculous. You take "African" etc away and each and every person described is a woman, unless words have lost all meaning (which is closely approaching). Adding "trans" to woman qualifies the word. It's up to individuals to decide whether they are identical to those previously described as women or not.

To argue otherwise is utterly disingenuous.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:06 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
These are about traditional definitions and hence ones that should be continued. They are in no way bigoted.
It's absolutely imperative that we exclude trans women from the definition women just out of spite and hatred. But don't call it transphobia.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:06 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
By the way, since it apparently escapes some people, one can speak of "African women", "Asian women" or "German women" without implying that they are not "women". The same applies to "disabled women", "tall women", "fat women" and so forth.
Do you not know what "trans" means? You seem to be treating it as something equivalent of a colour. It's really not. It has a specific meaning that these other modifiers you mention don't have.

If the circumstances were any different I'd think you were doing intentional parody.

Quote:
Trans women are women as far as I'm concerned
Which is why I'm asking you what you mean by "woman".

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's absolutely imperative that we exclude trans women from the definition women just out of spite and hatred. But don't call it transphobia.
Now you're just downright lying. No one has made any argument that even remotely ressembles this, and you've had clear explanations as to why the words work the way they do.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:06 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This whole thing smacks of virtue signalling by the reactionary right. It's like the whole "civil union" gambit to counter gay marriage in previous years. Even as the cede the issue, they want to ensure they can register their moral opprobrium by guarding language.

There's a desire by some to ensure that language is coded to signify disgust towards the "other".
Am I part of the reactionary right?
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:08 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This whole thing smacks of virtue signalling by the reactionary right. It's like the whole "civil union" gambit to counter gay marriage in previous years. Even as the cede the issue, they want to ensure they can register their moral opprobrium by guarding language.

There's a desire by some to ensure that language is coded to signify disgust towards the "other".
Except that no one here is on the right, and no one here has denied trans rights or has expressed any "disgust" towards them.

You're simply unwilling to even allow for dissent on any aspect of the discussion, which illustrates very well the issue raised in the OP.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:09 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is utterly ridiculous. You take "African" etc away and each and every person described is a woman, unless words have lost all meaning (which is closely approaching). Adding "trans" to woman qualifies the word. It's up to individuals to decide whether they are identical to those previously described as women or not.

To argue otherwise is utterly disingenuous.
And there is nothing bigoted about saying that women does not include black women. It is just a difference of opinion and not something that can be called out as racist.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:09 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What I want to know is what do YOU consider to be a "woman", since you think the "trans" modifier makes no difference. This isn't supposed to be complicated to understand.

Woman: A feminine person, in contrast to a masculine person.

I see no reason why a strict biological definition must be used, especially when much of gender roles and presentation is defined by social contexts, not biology.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Am I part of the reactionary right?
At this point it's just attempt to smear.

Apparently, according to some posters here, if you do not accept that trans women are like cis women in every way, then you must logically want to deny them their rights and treat them like garbage.

Actually, thinking about it, this is a pretty disturbing thinking process. If that's what they really think, then since they disagree with you and me they must want to deny US our rights and treat us like garbage.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that no one here is on the right, and no one here has denied trans rights or has expressed any "disgust" towards them.

You're simply unwilling to even allow for dissent on any aspect of the discussion, which illustrates very well the issue raised in the OP.
Glinner certainly has made no secret of his animosity towards trans people.
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