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Old 28th June 2020, 09:55 AM   #161
Butter!
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I presume in most cases they are being fired because the organization rejects the views advocated rather than a purely face saving strategy.
Oh! Well, I hadn't really considered that. I guess it probably happens sometimes, but where businesses and public spectacles are concerned, I'm always going to be more likely to bet that any particular tactic is a Cover-Your-Ass strategy above all else.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I believe that if 90% of these incidents had been "overheard in the break-room" situations as opposed to "plastered all over Instagram" situations, the people involved would not have lost their jobs (assuming they were productive workers otherwise).

I think bosses may very well WANT to fire people over simply holding bad beliefs, but if doing so isn't a necessary business decision, I believe most won't actually do it. Unless the bad opinion is directly related to the work involved, that is. Someone working for a college admissions office who is privately a Nazi would not be okay, for example, IMO. That person would have to go, if discovered, whether their opinions were public or not, because said opinions could easily color their actual work. But I believe most bosses would tolerate angry Red Pill Ben in accounting, as long as he stayed relatively quiet, because his personal opinions (odious as they may be) don't really have anything to do with the work at hand.

I don't know, those are my cursory thoughts on it. I haven't fully thought it all through, because it's a pretty complicated subject.


edit: Also, in my example, Red Pill Ben isn't just redpilled. He's one of the ones who thinks the government should give guys wives and wahmen shouldn't be allowed to vote.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:05 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And just wait until wearing "trans-face" becomes an issue...
It's not exactly not an issue even now:
https://twitter.com/sera9elliot/stat...41782762131456

That said, I think cis dudes cross-dressing (just the dressing up bit) is still in the clear.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:24 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It's not exactly not an issue even now:
https://twitter.com/sera9elliot/stat...41782762131456

That said, I think cis dudes cross-dressing (just the dressing up bit) is still in the clear.
Like Grayson Perry perhaps.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:57 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You seem to have the balance about right. Once the college was made aware of her post and the reactions to it, they had to do what was needed to protect their reputation and their bottom line.

It's the people who outed her who are to blame. Destroying one's potential career or even getting somebody sacked is a disproportionate response to what is essentially just an opinion. Treating the politically incorrect like lepers or murderers is just plain stupidity that is bound to cause violent backlashes.
That is pretty much my opinion, too - and if the school is going to throw out everyone who has an opinion that's unpopular or uncomfortable to someone, they'd have to pretty much chuck out every student and close down.

Edit: also agree with Butter!. I cringe when I think back to my edgy teenager communist phase. A phase I grew out of almost right away when I actually discussed it online and had whatever teen arguments I used picked apart by rational people, but that's the point: people, teenagers or otherwise, with dumb or insensitive beliefs should be educated, not punished.

We all have unpopular opinions, but punishing everyone for saying something controversial about Trump, abortion, Downs syndrome pregnancies, the Israel-Palestine conflict, local hot button political issues, domestic violence, trans people, military rules of engagement, abortion, sexual assault laws, dog breeding, corporal punishment, or one of the other countless sensitive topics in the world.

Face it, we all have an unpopular or controverisal opinion on something. Should we all lose our jobs?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:24 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
That is pretty much my opinion, too - and if the school is going to throw out everyone who has an opinion that's unpopular or uncomfortable to someone, they'd have to pretty much chuck out every student and close down.

Edit: also agree with Butter!. I cringe when I think back to my edgy teenager communist phase. A phase I grew out of almost right away when I actually discussed it online and had whatever teen arguments I used picked apart by rational people, but that's the point: people, teenagers or otherwise, with dumb or insensitive beliefs should be educated, not punished.

We all have unpopular opinions, but punishing everyone for saying something controversial about Trump, abortion, Downs syndrome pregnancies, the Israel-Palestine conflict, local hot button political issues, domestic violence, trans people, military rules of engagement, abortion, sexual assault laws, dog breeding, corporal punishment, or one of the other countless sensitive topics in the world.

Face it, we all have an unpopular or controverisal opinion on something. Should we all lose our jobs?
It depends on what you do with your unpopular or controversial opinion. Action.

Mary-Kate thinks civic peace is easier to maintain if people stick to socializing in their own ethnic groups. Ashley thinks the same.

Mary-Kate expresses this opinion by filming herself taking a crap on the Vietnam War wall memorial in DC, in blackface paint and a Confederate flag thong, while screaming "Heil Hitler" , the n-word, and waving a burning cross. She posts this film to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and her Etsy page. It makes international news.

Ashley expresses her opinion at the dinner table with Gramma, Papa Bubba, and Mama June. That is all.

They both work at Safe-Keeper Inc, your company. Do either of them get fired?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:52 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It depends on what you do with your unpopular or controversial opinion. Action.

Mary-Kate thinks civic peace is easier to maintain if people stick to socializing in their own ethnic groups. Ashley thinks the same.

Mary-Kate expresses this opinion by filming herself taking a crap on the Vietnam War wall memorial in DC, in blackface paint and a Confederate flag thong, while screaming "Heil Hitler" , the n-word, and waving a burning cross. She posts this film to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and her Etsy page. It makes international news.

Ashley expresses her opinion at the dinner table with Gramma, Papa Bubba, and Mama June. That is all.

They both work at Safe-Keeper Inc, your company. Do either of them get fired?
You are equating a social media post expressing an opinion with taking a crap on the Vietnam War Memorial?

Bit of a stretch, no?
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:19 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are equating a social media post expressing an opinion with taking a crap on the Vietnam War Memorial?

Bit of a stretch, no?
No. It demonstrators the concept. You admit now that your only issue is where you draw the line.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:23 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are equating a social media post expressing an opinion with taking a crap on the Vietnam War Memorial?

Bit of a stretch, no?
Hey dude. Thought Crime is Thought Crime. Degree doesn't matter.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
No. It demonstrators the concept. You admit now that your only issue is where you draw the line.
What concept is that, please elaborate.
Had she set someone on fire in order to express herself are we still simply discussing degree?
Or is there a substantive between expressing an opinion by stating it- and expressing it through actions?
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:36 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are equating a social media post expressing an opinion with taking a crap on the Vietnam War Memorial?

Bit of a stretch, no?
It is, of course, and I'm sure TM meant it to be a reductio ad absurdum to illustrate the basic idea that there are multiple ways to express yourself, and that there is a dividing line somewhere between them.

Clearly the issue under discussion is somewhere closer to the fuzzy dividing line, but the person in question did make her post publicly on social media which anyone who has not been under a rock for the last few years ought to know means that posts anyone finds of interest can be released into the wild.

I still am of the opinion that the college should not sack her summarily on the basis of that statement alone, but that's a different question to whether others reading the statement should simply ignore it if they truly believe she has misrepresented herself elsewhere.

I do understand where butter is coming from too, and I'm sure that like others I've said stupid and wrong things many times in the past, for which I would hope to be forgiven, especially, if, when confronted with them, I had a chance to apologize or acknowledge that they were stupid, wrong, misinformed, and so forth. I would hate to feel I was accountable for everything I've done wrong since childhood, but even children should know the difference between public and private. Everyone ought to know that when you make a post to social media it's already "out."

She should have a chance to explain, justify, recant, apologize, explain, or even to deny what is accused, but I don't think it's wrong to have to take responsibility.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:44 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You seem to have the balance about right. Once the college was made aware of her post and the reactions to it, they had to do what was needed to protect their reputation and their bottom line.

It's the people who outed her who are to blame. Destroying one's potential career or even getting somebody sacked is a disproportionate response to what is essentially just an opinion. Treating the politically incorrect like lepers or murderers is just plain stupidity that is bound to cause violent backlashes.

How was she “outed”?
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:44 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It is, of course, and I'm sure TM meant it to be a reductio ad absurdum to illustrate the basic idea that there are multiple ways to express yourself, and that there is a dividing line somewhere between them.

Clearly the issue under discussion is somewhere closer to the fuzzy dividing line, but the person in question did make her post publicly on social media which anyone who has not been under a rock for the last few years ought to know means that posts anyone finds of interest can be released into the wild.

I still am of the opinion that the college should not sack her summarily on the basis of that statement alone, but that's a different question to whether others reading the statement should simply ignore it if they truly believe she has misrepresented herself elsewhere.

I do understand where butter is coming from too, and I'm sure that like others I've said stupid and wrong things many times in the past, for which I would hope to be forgiven, especially, if, when confronted with them, I had a chance to apologize or acknowledge that they were stupid, wrong, misinformed, and so forth. I would hate to feel I was accountable for everything I've done wrong since childhood, but even children should know the difference between public and private. Everyone ought to know that when you make a post to social media it's already "out."

She should have a chance to explain, justify, recant, apologize, explain, or even to deny what is accused, but I don't think it's wrong to have to take responsibility.
Like member posts on this forum, most social media posts allow those who view them to respond in kind, in fact, I think this young lady even invited that feedback.

The response of some was to step it up a notch from debate to action. It was the respondents who did this- not the young lady.

The school acted in a way that minimizes its exposure to the mob- but was ultimately cowardly.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:52 PM   #173
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Okay, lets get real.

Justine Damond was killed in a horrible way.Justin Damond as well. It sets a horrible precedent.

I knew about these, because of BLM.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:56 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Like member posts on this forum, most social media posts allow those who view them to respond in kind, in fact, I think this young lady even invited that feedback.

The response of some was to step it up a notch from debate to action. It was the respondents who did this- not the young lady.

The school acted in a way that minimizes its exposure to the mob- but was ultimately cowardly.
Are you suggesting that social media forbid members from informing others of posts they find worthy of note? Posts proliferate and are shared and go viral all the time. It's an expected byproduct of social media.

The action you're accusing people of was, as far as I can see, simply pointing out the posts to those who might otherwise not have known of them. That may indeed be in poor taste, but it stretches the definition of action a little. The action smacks a little of medding by busybodies, but again, if we're not privy to the whole debate, or to the identity of everyone in question, it's a guess.

e.t.s. I forgot about the presumed "doxxing." I don't know for sure what was involved there, and how hard anyone had to dig. That is more action than one would presume appropriate for a normal debate, so yes, if they had to do more than just read carefully, I think that's excessive.

I am inclined to agree that the school's action was inappropriate, though "exposure to the mob" might be a bit rich for a Christian college, as many are quite willing to take on mobs they disagree with. It might just be that the mob whose wrath they fear is that which they claim to agree with. In any case, it would appear they acted with undue haste, and did not display much of either backbone or Christian charity, but we cannot be entirely sure of this, as we don't know just what they knew or what procedure they followed.

We're only guessing here, and if I don't want to be guilty of the same kind of undue haste as is being alleged here, I must temper my natural bias, which is to presume that a Christian college is run by hypocrites and sloppy thinkers, and remember to say "maybe they acted well and we just don't see it."
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:01 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Are you suggesting that social media forbid members from informing others of posts they find worthy of note? Posts proliferate and are shared and go viral all the time. It's an expected byproduct of social media.

The action you're accusing people of was, as far as I can see, simply pointing out the posts to those who might otherwise not have known of them. That may indeed be in poor taste, but it stretches the definition of action a little. The action smacks a little of medding by busybodies, but again, if we're not privy to the whole debate, or to the identity of everyone in question, it's a guess.

e.t.s. I forgot about the presumed "doxxing." I don't know for sure what was involved there, and how hard anyone had to dig. That is more action than one would presume appropriate for a normal debate, so yes, if they had to do more than just read carefully, I think that's excessive.

I am inclined to agree that the school's action was inappropriate, though "exposure to the mob" might be a bit rich for a Christian college, as many are quite willing to take on mobs they disagree with. It might just be that the mob whose wrath they fear is that which they claim to agree with. In any case, it would appear they acted with undue haste, and did not display much of either backbone or Christian charity, but we cannot be entirely sure of this, as we don't know just what they knew or what procedure they followed.

We're only guessing here, and if I don't want to be guilty of the same kind of undue haste as is being alleged here, I must temper my natural bias, which is to presume that a Christian college is run by hypocrites and sloppy thinkers, and remember to say "maybe they acted well and we just don't see it."
That none of us is omniscient should go without saying- but you are right, it needs to be pointed out now and then. Conceded.
Certainly none of us are privy to the full story, we are simply expressing our opinions based upon the information available to us at the time.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:09 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I never claimed you did?
I think it was this bit that threw me off:
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
when a gay person or woman is harrassed or receives hate mail, we all agree it's terrible, so there's no public discussion or widespread condemning of the action
I dunno, I think there's till public discussion and widespread condemning of the action. It seemed like an odd position. I didn't think you were implying that I specifically was okay with it... I mostly disagree with the idea that nothing gets done about it.

Although I also think my response to you was not particularly clear on that point.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:15 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
So a few days ago I came across a post on Instagram about a teenage girl who had made an inflammatory post on the same platform about how she didn't care about George Floyd's death, that if he didn't want to get killed he shouldn't have broken the law, and that nothing anyone told her would change her mind. Then she posted some kind of "MAGA" remark. Someone responded angrily and she let slip she had been admitted to a certain place of higher education. Someone contacted said institution and they ended up deciding not to admit her. She also of course probably received lots of angry direct messages.
Well, people who have the wrong opinions shouldn't have jobs or educations, where they might learn to improve their opinions.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
There is no point in supporting beliefs that won't reciprocate. You may want to check "Tolerance Paradox".
I really get tired of this argument. You do realize that the "Paradox of Tolerance" that gets bandied about was literally a small footnote within a much, much, larger work extolling the benefits and virtues of tolerance to societies?
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:28 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Hyperbole, much? All societies have always had the norm that you don't speak thoughtlessly. It's how humans get along. Do you say absolutely anything you want in front of your mother? Your boss? Your friends? Strangers? I realize that people make a deity of Freedom of Speech but it's taking it too far when they imagine that any degree of sensible discretion and considering one's audience is somehow the rise of Stalin. OMG I suggest not telling your employer's important client that she's fat and has body odor! HITLER IS BACK! DOOOOOOOOM!
Okay, fine. Let's rewind this clock a bit. Do you think "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was a good policy? Do you think it was reasonable for gay people to have to keep their preferences hidden? I mean, it's on them to not speak thoughtlessly, right?
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:35 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What has changed?
Hmm, yes. It's always been this way, so we shouldn't try to change it?
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:45 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's pretty funny that a couple white people get punished for being idiots and it means there's a whole goddamn culture going wrong.

Don't mind me. I'll just keep laughing.
It reads an awful lot as though you support vigilante "justice" dealt out by an anonymous mob that ruins the lives of people for holding an unpopular opinion, on the basis of their race.

Am I reading you correctly here?
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:47 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I just don't think there's a big change, is all. Just that it's more visible. This is why it's unfair to ask for examples from the 70s. They're not something I can send you a link to. The conversations were on the phone and not recorded on tape, instead of online where somebody can share a screen cap.



Just as one example that I generalized earlier upthread, one of my dad's friends was kicked out of the golf club because it was revealed that he had a Jewish grandmother. Somebody heard, then there was a flurry of phonecalls, and a poison pen letter campaign to all the clubs he was a member of that were WASP exclusive. The golf club was just one, but it's the one closest to us because he was my dad's regular golf foursome partner.

Pretty significant impact on his life, because a lot of his business deals were networked in these clubs, probably mostly the golf club and the Vancouver Club. His business flagged after the exposure. That was mid-70s.



I have one from the mid-80s. A friend lost thousands of dollars in scholarships when he was outed as gay. Like the above, there was a flurry of poison pen letters and phonecalls. They called the restaurant where he worked, too, trying to get him fired. Those were the AIDS scare years.



So, these stories, times a hundred million. But it wasn't as out there in the public eye because mass communication just didn't work that way, it was slower and nonarchival.
Okay, so it's not completely new. It's faster paced, and reaches a whole lot more people who make a whole lot more noise. But the basic tendency isn't new.

Does that mean that we shouldn't fight against it?

Or are you just hung up on it being described as a "new" trend?
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:48 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It reads an awful lot as though you support vigilante "justice" dealt out by an anonymous mob that ruins the lives of people for holding an unpopular opinion, on the basis of their race.

Am I reading you correctly here?
It reads to me like you misrepresent posts in an attempt to make stupid points. I am reading you correctly.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:49 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
White people are finding out they can no longer openly advocate white supremacy without consequence. Oh the humanity.
You do realize that several of the examples given do not fit your description, don't you?
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:09 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It reads to me like you misrepresent posts in an attempt to make stupid points. I am reading you correctly.
Oh, I'm sorry. I guess your view of the kind of non-judicial "punishment" that strangers are allowed to mete out is just a bit different than mine. And clearly, your specific use of "white" in your statement was just something I imagined. Carry on with your schadenfreude then.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:35 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, people who have the wrong opinions shouldn't have jobs or educations, where they might learn to improve their opinions.
Not if their presence would impact the ability of others to work/learn/be served in a safe environment.

You would want to know if your doctor had an 'opinion' on germ theory outside the established science, right? You'd not want to go to class with someone who know would cheer if you, personally, were slowly murdered by law enforcement. And even if you personally wouldn't care, if you don't see how it could adversely impact the education of others then you're worse at seeing other viewpoints than even I believe.

The specifics matter. The word 'opinion' is no more magical than 'religious belief'. Neither are 'get out of consequences free' cards. Something being an 'opinion' doesn't exempt it from being open to criticism and even consequence.

Which is my opinion, so you can't argue against it, nor do anything about it, or you're a censoring SJW.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:41 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Not if their presence would impact the ability of others to work/learn/be served in a safe environment.
That sounds reasonable, but people have made the argument that opposing opinions are subversive and too dangerous to allow for thousands of years. I don't buy it, and that's why the First Amendment exists in the first place.

Quote:
You would want to know if your doctor had an 'opinion' on germ theory outside the established science, right?
If he does, I'd like to believe that he won't become a doctor to begin with. Also, would you want to know if your car mechanic had an 'opinion' on germ theory outside the estalished science? You can only show that it's not acceptable IF it impacts the person's job, in this case. (ETA: in other words, if it's not going to impact his job, why should I care what he believes?)

Quote:
And even if you personally wouldn't care, if you don't see how it could adversely impact the education of others then you're worse at seeing other viewpoints than even I believe.
Wow, and you top it off with yet another "if your opinion differs from mine, you're a bad person" of sorts. Nicely done.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:51 PM   #188
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Quote:
she didn't care about George Floyd's death, that if he didn't want to get killed he shouldn't have broken the law,
turns into

Quote:
someone who know would cheer if you, personally, were slowly murdered by law enforcement
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:32 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
turns into
He forgot to start that rephrasing with "So, you think........"
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:41 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That sounds reasonable, but people have made the argument that opposing opinions are subversive and too dangerous to allow for thousands of years. I don't buy it, and that's why the First Amendment exists in the first place.

Lmao, yeah, judging claims based on their specific merits and evidence is just too hard. Opposing claims are just as valid as each other.

Great skeptical position to take.

Other claims lacking merit just doesn't matter to the evaluation of any other given unrelated claim.



Quote:
If he does, I'd like to believe that he won't become a doctor to begin with.
Flaccid handwave is flaccid. You admit you'd want to know, correct? And that you'd not want to have a doctor like that correct?


Quote:
Also, would you want to know if your car mechanic had an 'opinion' on germ theory outside the estalished science? You can only show that it's not acceptable IF it impacts the person's job, in this case. (ETA: in other words, if it's not going to impact his job, why should I care what he believes?)

Oh, so the specifics do matter. Thanks for the concession.



Quote:
Wow, and you top it off with yet another "if your opinion differs from mine, you're a bad person" of sorts. Nicely done.

No, but you're not going to ever pretend otherwise, so what's the point? Flaccid handwave two is flaccid. Do the possible harms to an organization or other individuals involved factor into this or not?

Oh no, you're telling me your opinion on my opinion is bad! You must be censoring me.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:42 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
turns into
No.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:55 PM   #192
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One has to wonder how many people really care all that much about George Floyd's death.

I saw the video, and agree that it was horrible and irresponsible police work, and if I try I can muster a bit of caring that he was killed while not having done too much to deserve it (at least on that day, that we know about). But as far as things to care about it's pretty low on my list. I find it odd that people are painting murals of him as if he's some kind of hero or someone to emulate, when he actually represents the kind of behavior we'd be better off without. Most of this is obvious and common sense, but I guess we're supposed to not believe it. #thoughtcrime

Sure, the argument will be made that this is the straw that broke the camel's back or that there is institutionalized or systematic racism, but then why not just make that argument without hanging it upon the irresponsible police killing of a guy who did some absolutely horrible things.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:56 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Lmao, yeah, judging claims based on their specific merits and evidence is just too hard. Opposing claims are just as valid as each other.

Great skeptical position to take.
I don't know what you think you're addressing but this ressembles no argument or position of mine. How about you try to adress what's actually posted? Or do you not understand the point I was making and would rather not reveal that?

Quote:
Flaccid handwave is flaccid.
Do you label everything you find inconvenient a "handwave"? That is a weak response to my point. Try again.

Quote:
You admit you'd want to know, correct?
This is just a distraction anyway, since this isn't even the topic of discussion, but if a doctor has a wacky theory, you'd find out pretty quickly. In fact, I have in the past encountered this, and just didn't return there. And as I said there are ways to vet doctors and other professionals.

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic, which is about people voicing unpopular opinions. It's your contention that this specific opinion is harmful; I pointed out that people can say that about any opinion that they don't like. The ball's in your court: demonstrate that this specific opinion is harmful. Don't just claim it.

Quote:
Oh, so the specifics do matter. Thanks for the concession.
Concession? What are you even talking about? I never argued that specifics don't matter; it was you who brought that up in your strawman above.

Quote:
No, but you're not going to ever pretend otherwise, so what's the point?
That is a very convenient excuse. To avoid actually putting any effort into this discussion.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:08 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No.
Well, both of them were direct quotes. One from the OP, one from your post.

If you didn't mean there to be a connection..........well, you can explain what you meant. it seemed to me that you were referencing a justification of why a person ought to be denied an education, and it also seemed to me that your post was meant to be a reference to the case from the OP. If any of that is wrong, I obviously didn't understand what you were trying to referene.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:27 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't know what you think you're addressing but this ressembles no argument or position of mine. How about you try to adress what's actually posted? Or do you not understand the point I was making and would rather not reveal that?

Yes it does. You literally argued that because people have claimed opposing opinions were dangerous in the past, that my assertion that claims should be evaluated on their individual merits was not reasonable. It only sounded reasonable.

You don't appear to understand what the words you typed mean if you didn't mean that.



Quote:
Do you label everything you find inconvenient a "handwave"? That is a weak response to my point. Try again.

LOL, yeah, sure Zigg Belz. How about you try again without the handwave.



Quote:
This is just a distraction anyway, since this isn't even the topic of discussion, but if a doctor has a wacky theory, you'd find out pretty quickly. In fact, I have in the past encountered this, and just didn't return there. And as I said there are ways to vet doctors and other professionals.

Wait, you didn't tell others about it? You denied them information that would have been useful in their decision to use that doctor or not? That's not very responsible.

I'm betting that you did in fact warn others about it. Now if one of those people decided to tell a medical board who ended up firing him? Are you participating in cancel culture, being a SJW? This isn't a distraction. You and others are defining what is acceptable and what is not on criteria of assumed intent on the part of the 'cancel culture' and cost to the 'victim' but leaving out the possible benefits (justifications) for such actions.

I bet it's comforting, but it isn't valid.

Quote:
Again, this has nothing to do with the topic, which is about people voicing unpopular opinions. It's your contention that this specific opinion is harmful; I pointed out that people can say that about any opinion that they don't like. The ball's in your court: demonstrate that this specific opinion is harmful. Don't just claim it.

Having such an obviously false 'opinion' on science directly connected to their area of business is an indication they'll practice based on those incorrect beliefs. Really, you need the dangers of ignoring established germ theory in medical practice explained to you?



Quote:
Concession? What are you even talking about? I never argued that specifics don't matter; it was you who brought that up in your strawman above.

Again, you literally argued against what I was saying by claiming it only sounded reasonable then going on about opposing opinions and the first amendment for reasons known only to you.



Quote:
That is a very convenient excuse. To avoid actually putting any effort into this discussion.

It's an observation. I don't really care if you're unwilling or unable to discuss topics like this in good faith, but it's an observation that I'll continue to operate on until evidence otherwise arises. Should I be censored for this opinion? Would you warning others be justified?
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:31 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, both of them were direct quotes. One from the OP, one from your post.

If you didn't mean there to be a connection..........well, you can explain what you meant. it seemed to me that you were referencing a justification of why a person ought to be denied an education, and it also seemed to me that your post was meant to be a reference to the case from the OP. If any of that is wrong, I obviously didn't understand what you were trying to referene.
It did obliquely refer to the OP, but in exaggerated fashion to illustrate my point exactly as my other hypothetical example.

Yes, it's obvious you didn't understand. Did you try to work through the point of those hypotheticals?
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:48 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, both of them were direct quotes. One from the OP, one from your post.

If you didn't mean there to be a connection..........well, you can explain what you meant. it seemed to me that you were referencing a justification of why a person ought to be denied an education, and it also seemed to me that your post was meant to be a reference to the case from the OP. If any of that is wrong, I obviously didn't understand what you were trying to referene.
I agree in part, that I think Tyr 13 made an unwarranted assumption when he suggested that the person in question would cheer if one were murdered by police. She did make it pretty plain, though, that she would not consider it worthy of objection.

But I think that highlighted part is a leap. The denial in question is admission to a specific college, which is, as I understand it a private, Christian institution which does not practice open admission. Not going there falls pretty far short of denial of education, especially if a person has already graduated from high school, where (despite some evidence to the contrary) considerable education is thought to have occurred.

If the history of that utterance resulted in poison pen letters or blackballing* that kept her out of any college at all , then yes, you could start speaking of denial. It's a bit early for that term now, I think.

*Thread drift regarding college blackballing....
Something like this did indeed happen to my sister for a few years after her expulsion from Goucher for various sins, the greatest of which was getting arrested at civil rights sitins back in the early 1960's. After several attempts to get into colleges were mysteriously dead-ended, she applied, to Sarah Lawrence, whose dean of faculty was an old colleague of my father's. She (the dean) then revealed that the president of Goucher, a putative philosopher who should have known better, had sent a poison pen letter along with her transcript. I don't recall the content now, but gather it was really quite vicious, warning that she was a troublemaker and morally lax. She probably was, a little, but...hey. She ended up going to SL (graduated in the same class as Lesley Gore) and stayed on for an MA, studying under Joseph Campbell, who turned out to be a war-loving fascist who tried to scuttle her thesis, which was based on research into ancient Welsh law and its codification of opposition to warfare.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:18 PM   #198
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Joseph Campbell a fascist? Oh my. That would upset a lot of liberals. He was definitely in the "must read" section at the Unitarian Church.

The "war loving" part doesn't surprise me. (I did read a couple of his books.)
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:20 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It did obliquely refer to the OP, but in exaggerated fashion to illustrate my point exactly as my other hypothetical example.

Yes, it's obvious you didn't understand. Did you try to work through the point of those hypotheticals?
Ok, so in the real world, a real seventeen year old girl had her college admission rescinded based on a real tweet, but hypothetically someone else could have said something different so.....uhhh......it's not important I suppose.

ETA: I think every single person who participates here would agree that there are things you could, theoretically, say in a tweet that can, and should, get you dismissed from a job, or a college, or whatever else might be deprived to you after whatever it was that you tweeted. However, in the actual cases where bad things have happened to real people after exposure on social media, a lot of us think that darned near all of them represent an overreaction and that the twitter mob really ought to back off. That's the real twitter mob, not the hypothetical one.

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Old 29th June 2020, 10:33 PM   #200
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Its the progressive culture. Teachers are losing jobs for questioning gender or Black Lives Matter. They get labeled Nazi or Racist. One guy's wife was fired for refusing to disavow her husband's saying "All lives matter". Its worse than most realize.

Dumbing down public education and the Frankfurt School are partly to thank for public school teachers and college professors breeding the behaviors in question.

Watch the "No Safe Spaces" trailer. Few people know what happened to traditional college education.

Its true Nick Sandman did nothing. Literally. Footage shows Nathan Phillips walk up to Sandman and stand there drumming. Sandman stood silently and smiled. At one point he 'shushed' his classmates with a hand signal.

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