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Old 22nd February 2020, 12:04 PM   #161
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While I'm out on the limb:

Remember the alibi from Arizona, who Lori told the cops JJ was staying with? Melanie Gibbs. She is also a bookwriter and speaker at the Preparing a People culty thingy. She offered a closing prayer at a culty thing in Rexburg Idaho (lives in Arizona) just a few weeks after the Daybells beat feet.

https://www.preparingapeople.com/cop...ence-tickets-1

https://www.preparingapeople.com/events

Speaking of Preparing a People, they scrubbed down their website and have a cease and desist instruction regarding using their name in reference to the Chadster. Something like 'don't use our registered name in connection with these nutjobs'. Nothing left on the site indicates the End of Times being a few months out.

https://www.preparingapeople.com/
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Old 22nd February 2020, 12:33 PM   #162
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I was of the understanding that Brandon had hired a PI because he thought he recognized Cox (as well?), mentioned upthread I think.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 12:48 PM   #163
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I'd like to know if Brandon had any life insurance and who the beneficiary was.

Bear with me here: Cox waxes Charles for whyever. Charles' life insurance didn't go to Lori, so maybe Alex feels shortchanged? Now we got to something about Six-Gun Alex looking for money. Perhaps that's why JJ, Tylee, or both have gone missing? Alex giving some incentive to collect?

We all might be looking at Lori wrong. The bodies may be falling due to Dead Alex alone, wh, because he is Alex, could have been capped by a number of people.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 01:16 PM   #164
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I would agree that Alex is the guy to watch as we learn more about the case, but the missing kids almost have to involve Lori and Chad. Among some other small details, Chad's family were led to believe that Lori had no dependent children, whether dead or independent. Lori was telling people that Tylee was going to be going to BYU-Hawaii, and told someone else that she was attending BYU-Idaho.

The motive for the "disappearing' is a bit fuzzier (especially if not money), as we don't know if the kids were "disappeared" in the order they were last seen. One possibility if they were killed in that order is that Tylee was iced because she had witnessed Charles' death (and answered questions) and was old enough and possibly socially exposed enough to question the situation. The motivation for icing JJ if this was the case is a bit hard to pin down, in that there are several possible reasons.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 01:35 PM   #165
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From a few news articles from Fox 10 Phoenix, Alex apparently attack Joe Ryan because he believed Joe had hurt Tylee. Furthermore, Alex had apparently married in Vegas two weeks prior to his death and taken on his wife's name.

It was apparently a strange, eerie ceremony, they were the only two people there and they weren't emotional. I haven't seen any indication that this is the woman he was with at the time of his passing.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/ma...fore-his-death

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/de...brother-emerge

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/le...le-behind-bars

I haven't been able to verify these claims with other news articles. No indication of if he had a life insurance policy or whom it would be paid out to.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 01:40 PM   #166
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Dead Alex is the only one actually known to have a notch on the handle of his gun (evidently carrying when he waxed Dead Charles). So what I am wondering is whether he is the sole or at least primary Reaper. The bodies started piling up on his watch, and stopped at his death. Correlation or causation?

And I'm really not buying Brandon's story anymore. Two people driving from Idaho to Arizona in their easily identifiable vehicle, with a rifle with a silencer, no witnesses to a public sniping attempt, complete with chase, and he walks away unscathed (while conveniently getting to hide with the kids from the crazy ex). Mark my words: this one will unravel.

eta: and if Dead Alex took his wife's name, he was trying to hide.

So he lived in the same apartment complex as the Daybells and Melanie when Rexburg did the welfare check (although cops said his crib was empty except for a couple little things in the garage), then it's a high tail it to Vegas to get married and change his name, then dead in Gilbert two weeks later? Oh yeah. Someone was gunning for the gunman.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 01:48 PM   #167
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I agree on Alex being the Reaper, I just don't think he was reaping on his own agenda (wittingly or unwittingly).
Edit: I agree because he keeps being conveniently around.

I'm ambivalent about Brandon's story, it very well could be that he made it up and what was just a power play in a messy divorce inadvertently blew the lid off of Lori's three-ring circus.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 02:02 PM   #168
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Oh god, this is priceless.

Cox used to do stand up comedy (literally). He did some jail time for tasing Ryan (Lori's ex and Tylee's dad) twice and threatening to kill him. While he was in jail, he tried to get pictures of Ryan and his car license plate numbers, saying there were guys in lockup with him that wanted to 'hang out' with him (Ryan did end up soon dead, of a heart attack, so it seems).

Oh, yeah. this is my boy, not Lori.

eta: and this is why Lori is quiet. She didn't roll on her brother at the time, but knows enough to be heavily implicated and doesn't know what to do.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 02:06 PM   #169
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I knew he tased Ryan once two years after he divorced Lori.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 02:26 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
I knew he tased Ryan once two years after he divorced Lori.
Your third link recently posted spells the fun out
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Old 22nd February 2020, 02:41 PM   #171
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Ah, so there was still a custody battle. Now to figure out why he passed out in his own **** and then died....

Edit: or rather, how.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 02:50 PM   #172
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This story requires a full color timeline, a topographical map, and a detailed chart to keep up at this point.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 02:54 PM   #173
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I thought about trying out the "story" feature on Google Earth, but I doubt it supports branching paths.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 04:06 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, yeah. this is my boy, not Lori.
Not convinced.

1. Why is Chad's wife dead then? She had nothing to do with anything, except that it prevented Chad from marrying Lori.

2. Remember, Chad's wife "passed away in her sleep". It's something her suspicious death has in common with Alex's own death. That tells me whoever killed Tammy Daybell may have also killed Alex; i.e., someone besides Alex.

3. If the kids disappearing was never part of any plan and Alex spontaneously did something to them because he felt cheated (or whatever), why were Chad and Lori already taking steps to erase the children's existence before they actually disappeared?

4. Dead men tell no tales. If all of the killing was all Alex, now that he's dead Lori and Chad are free to roll because they're actually innocent.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 04:40 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not convinced.

1. Why is Chad's wife dead then? She had nothing to do with anything, except that it prevented Chad from marrying Lori.

2. Remember, Chad's wife "passed away in her sleep". It's something her suspicious death has in common with Alex's own death. That tells me whoever killed Tammy Daybell may have also killed Alex; i.e., someone besides Alex.

3. If the kids disappearing was never part of any plan and Alex spontaneously did something to them because he felt cheated (or whatever), why were Chad and Lori already taking steps to erase the children's existence before they actually disappeared?

4. Dead men tell no tales. If all of the killing was all Alex, now that he's dead Lori and Chad are free to roll because they're actually innocent.
Fair point. I'd very tentatively suggest that old Tammy had a little $430k life insurance kitty, right? Kind of like to know if there was an earmark for Alex on that puppy. With or without Chadaroonis knowledge. More likely with, but that starts assuming multiple murdering psychopaths, which I see as less plausible.

Then Lori figures Alex has outlived his usefulness, and he gets the treatment that the other non-shot people got. Something that evidently causes a innocuous looking heart attack.

Plausible as anything else at this point.

Eta: I mean Lori as the prime cause, but Alex the actual killer. She would have known at least a lot of what happened, but not calling all the shots
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Old 22nd February 2020, 04:40 PM   #176
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I'm not ready to clear Lori, and to a lesser extend Chad, of the disappearance of the children. As far as the facts suggest, Alex was used by Lori to kill Charles, and that's the entire extent of his "dirty work".

Think about it. We have three suspicious deaths: Charles, Tammy, and Alex.

Charles' death was violent. We know that Alex shot him.

Tammy's death was nonviolent. She was initially presumed to have "died peacefully in her sleep".

That also seems to be how Alex died as well.

If you want to consider Ryan's death suspicious too - well he died of a heart attack; again, a similarity to Tammy's and Alex's deaths insofar as being non-violent, and not to Charles' death at the barrel of Alex's gun. We know that Alex attacked Ryan violently more than once prior to his death; non-violence is decidedly not Alex's MO.

It was Lori and Chad who phoned Lori's friend in Arizona and asked her to lie. At the welfare check, Alex gave the police an excuse for JJ's whereabouts that was inconsistent with Lori's, suggesting that he was "not in the loop".
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Old 22nd February 2020, 04:46 PM   #177
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Multiple serial killers seems implausible. I trying to interpret the evidence with one or two, as that may be the simplest explanation.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 04:49 PM   #178
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Around about now, I'd be checking her gardens to see if she likes growing Foxgloves because they're purdy.

(Nothing to do with their ability to make people die of heart-attacks.)
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Old 22nd February 2020, 04:54 PM   #179
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I'm thinking Chad may be a world class dupe, who only slowly got roped in. Lori was reported to send the kids around to different states for months, so he may have been conned. Pretty out there, but possible.

Actually, is there any evidence of Chad even seeing the kids? Maybe Lori said they were runaway, or with other family, or other excuses. Remember, Chad and Lori were only married a short time, not years. It could be that he first bought a line that the kids didn't live with her.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 05:11 PM   #180
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They were all living together there at the end, there might be some wiggle room at the beginning. Lori seems to have a sexual hold on him. One of the weird things is that a few weeks before Tammy died, Chad allegedly said Tammy wasn't in God's plan for him. I'd have to dig to see if this was before or after Lori started dancing for him (this was before Charles died, not sure on the divorce process).
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Old 22nd February 2020, 05:42 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Actually, is there any evidence of Chad even seeing the kids? Maybe Lori said they were runaway, or with other family, or other excuses. Remember, Chad and Lori were only married a short time, not years. It could be that he first bought a line that the kids didn't live with her.
According to the timeline, the children disappeared before Chad and Lori got married. So, yeah, there's no evidence they were ever in the same place at the same time.

However, he definitely knew they existed, though. For one, at the welfare check in November, according to the detective's affidavit Chad claimed to police that he had last seen JJ at Lori's apartment in October - this while at the same time pretending to them that he was not married to Lori. For another, Lori's friend in Arizona, during her phone call with police afterwards, told them that both Lori and Chad had separately called her asking her to lie about the children's whereabouts.

So yes you are right that it's possible that Chad never actually physically saw either of the children. However, he knew that they existed, and he was aware that they were supposed to be with Lori and that the police effort to locate them had to be obstructed.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 06:39 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I'm not ready to clear Lori, and to a lesser extend Chad, of the disappearance of the children. As far as the facts suggest, Alex was used by Lori to kill Charles, and that's the entire extent of his "dirty work".

Think about it. We have three suspicious deaths: Charles, Tammy, and Alex.

Charles' death was violent. We know that Alex shot him.

Tammy's death was nonviolent. She was initially presumed to have "died peacefully in her sleep".

That also seems to be how Alex died as well.

If you want to consider Ryan's death suspicious too - well he died of a heart attack; again, a similarity to Tammy's and Alex's deaths insofar as being non-violent, and not to Charles' death at the barrel of Alex's gun. We know that Alex attacked Ryan violently more than once prior to his death; non-violence is decidedly not Alex's MO.

It was Lori and Chad who phoned Lori's friend in Arizona and asked her to lie. At the welfare check, Alex gave the police an excuse for JJ's whereabouts that was inconsistent with Lori's, suggesting that he was "not in the loop".
To call being found lying unconscious in a pile of his own excrement, "died peacefully in his sleep", is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
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Old 22nd February 2020, 06:49 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
To call being found lying unconscious in a pile of his own excrement, "died peacefully in his sleep", is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
What I mean is, he wasn't shot or stabbed or lit on fire, or anything else obviously violent and self-apparently committed by another person.

Besides, isn't the condition you describe somewhat common of people who die in their sleep?
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Old 22nd February 2020, 06:59 PM   #184
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He was facedown on the floor in his bathroom. I'm giving even odds to poisoned by Lori and food poisoning/illness.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 08:09 PM   #185
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What a complicated mess. Is there a website with all this explained out somewhere? I've been reading this topic but am hopelessly confused.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 08:14 PM   #186
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Upthread in post #130 I posted two links regarding court documents, those give a decent beginning overview. We'd basically have to compile our own resource to cover anywhere close to everything going into this, and we may be better of waiting until the trial to do that.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 08:18 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Upthread in post #130 I posted two links regarding court documents, those give a decent beginning overview. We'd basically have to compile our own resource to cover anywhere close to everything going into this, and we may be better of waiting until the trial to do that.
That's a start. Thanks!
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Old 22nd February 2020, 09:35 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
According to the timeline, the children disappeared before Chad and Lori got married. So, yeah, there's no evidence they were ever in the same place at the same time.

However, he definitely knew they existed, though. For one, at the welfare check in November, according to the detective's affidavit Chad claimed to police that he had last seen JJ at Lori's apartment in October - this while at the same time pretending to them that he was not married to Lori. For another, Lori's friend in Arizona, during her phone call with police afterwards, told them that both Lori and Chad had separately called her asking her to lie about the children's whereabouts.

So yes you are right that it's possible that Chad never actually physically saw either of the children. However, he knew that they existed, and he was aware that they were supposed to be with Lori and that the police effort to locate them had to be obstructed.
Right, he may have never even seen them. What I am kicking around is that Chaddeus may have been fed a load of bull about who Lori's kids were. She may have told confusing half-truths, like JJ was in her care on-again, off-again with other family in different states. Same with Tylee. She was out and about freely while they 'dated', so it may have seemed kinda-sorta plausible.

I'm picturing Chaddy as a guy who married his high school girl, raised 5 kids with the same wife, and was basically a good little Mormon novel writer. Along comes bad-girl Lori, and he is swept up in a mid-life crisis fantasy. Lori, with or without the Chadsters knowledge and/or Alex's input, puts Tammy down and talks Chadoramma into a whirlwind marriage on Nov 5, and off to Hawaii they go, only to return late November to be met with the cops, when he has to make lame cover stories for what he doesn't entirely understand.

This would account for the inconsistent stories, at least plausibly. Lori could have told him anything. JJ was staying with his real family in Arizona, for instance. Maybe tales where Chaddy Chad thought he was covering for her for less sinister reasons, like an ugly custody battle that Lori said the malicious grandparents were always lying to police about. I think a doofus might get plausibly swept up in it all, before realizing he was sleeping with a psycho. Then it's too late. He's an accomplice.

Again, all just spitballing to make sense out of a storyline that makes no sense.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 09:42 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
That's a start. Thanks!
In post #1, near the bottom, Checkmite leaves a link under the word 'here' containing a easier to read graphic map of the cast of characters. Perfect to get the who's-who and who's-dead down clearly.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 10:05 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
What a complicated mess. Is there a website with all this explained out somewhere? I've been reading this topic but am hopelessly confused.
I know what you mean. As the details emerge, it just gets worse.

My eldest is 17, 18 in August and thus an adult legally. I can guarantee that none of this crap would even be vaguely on the radar. Confiscate phone and cut off all access to anyone? That would not and could not happen.

Unless I were somehow to do what I could not.

I think we will all have to eat it. Like it or not, those kids are dead. Were it me? Well, think Liam Neeson in Taken. Not claiming to be some uber warrior, but were it my kids, I would keep going until I couldn't.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 10:10 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
<snip>

I think we will all have to eat it. Like it or not, those kids are dead. Were it me? Well, think Liam Neeson in Taken. Not claiming to be some uber warrior, but were it my kids, I would keep going until I couldn't.

Unfortunately (assuming I've been reading the program right), these kids don't have any immediate family left alive to keep going except for the mom.

And it doesn't look like she's the Liam Neeson type.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 10:50 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Unfortunately (assuming I've been reading the program right), these kids don't have any immediate family left alive to keep going except for the mom.

And it doesn't look like she's the Liam Neeson type.
The grandparents initiated the welfare check. They live still.

And it does not matter.

When ones kids become old enough to challenge whatever idea, one best pay careful attention.

As a parent, I love that my lunatics challenge anything I say. Because it gives rise to wild philosophical conversation about the most unexpected topics. To me, this is success as a parent. Those mad bastages can present a cogent argument for whatever might be topic du jour.

I can hurl the Kalam argument for the hell of it, just to see how they will deal with it. And I have learned from their response to it. I teach them and they teach me.

Why anyone would not? I cannot understand that, but it seems to happen often.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 11:05 PM   #193
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Quote:
My eldest is 17, 18 in August and thus an adult legally. I can guarantee that none of this crap would even be vaguely on the radar. Confiscate phone and cut off all access to anyone? That would not and could not happen.
Mine are all grown now. But at the ages of the kids in this topic, there's no way I could've forced them to cut ties with friends and family. At best, they would've probably just moved out, leaving me to my delusions; at worst they would've had me committed or something.

I think the kids are dead. It's nice to think they just had enough of the crazy family and took off on their own, but I doubt it. The boy is apparently autistic, and I doubt the girl could take care of him, so that makes it even more unlikely. Her giving back the dog (!) is where my doubts evaporate. Somehow, the idea the service dog is the only survivor makes me even sadder.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 11:26 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Mine are all grown now. But at the ages of the kids in this topic, there's no way I could've forced them to cut ties with friends and family. At best, they would've probably just moved out, leaving me to my delusions; at worst they would've had me committed or something.

I think the kids are dead. It's nice to think they just had enough of the crazy family and took off on their own, but I doubt it. The boy is apparently autistic, and I doubt the girl could take care of him, so that makes it even more unlikely. Her giving back the dog (!) is where my doubts evaporate. Somehow, the idea the service dog is the only survivor makes me even sadder.
I don't like it a whole lot. But I am a realist.
Those kids are dead.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 02:25 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, all just spitballing to make sense out of a storyline that makes no sense.
It's too much worldbuilding for me.

I don't have any problems with "Chad and Lori share a religious delusion and decide to cast off their former lives to accompany each other to the end of the world". The bizarre culty beliefs were noticed by too many people independently - Charles in his divorce filing, Brandon Boudreaux before his divorce to Melani, Lori's friend in Hawaii - for me to be willing to dismiss them as insignificant or irrelevant.

I think it's this simple: Chad and Lori had planned the entire situation from the beginning.
Lori had her brother kill Charles, and then moved to Idaho. Chad waited a few weeks to build time between the two deaths and then killed his wife, and then promptly joined Lori and got married out of state to keep the situation quiet. In between these, Lori disposed of the children, either by killing them (possibly with Alex's help, possibly without) or by sending them off to a more unscrupulous friend than the one she tried to get to lie for her in Arizona.

Was Brandon really shot at, or did he make it up? I'm inclined to believe it really happened, firstly because so far the Daybells et al are the only characters in this story that have already proven to have lied and committed criminal activity, including leaving a trail of bodies in their wake, one of whom was also shot, so one more isn't an extraordinary claim; secondly, because a week after the alleged attack on Brandon, Tammy Daybell (just over a week before she died) called 911 to report that a masked man had shot at her with a "paintball gun", and it strikes me as entirely possible that it was a silenced rifle and the sound of the silenced shot is what convinced her it was a paintball gun.

But whether or not it really happened, Brandon's claim set the police snooping around Chad, Lori, and Alex. The police impounded the jeep, and then days later came back to ask about JJ, and the couple were spooked by the pressure and ran, probably after they couldn't convince Lori's Arizona friend to lie to the police about having JJ. I don't buy that Chad is some naive or feeble-minded fool who was befuddled by the police scrutiny and spontaneously and reflexively lied in a way he thought might "help Lori" without understanding what was going on; that theory fails to account for why he also lied to the police about being only casually acquainted with Lori; the two were legally married, and if he was completely ignorant of the criminal conspiracy he would have absolutely no innocent reason to think he had to lie about that relationship just because police were looking for JJ.

Alex died on December 12, a day after it was announced Tammy's death was ruled suspicious and her body was being exhumed. Since the Daybells had been in Hawaii since December 1st, there was nobody left to kill Alex; he probably committed suicide due to the police closing in. As far as I'm concerned that's the end of the story.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 06:07 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
[snip]
Alex died on December 12, a day after it was announced Tammy's death was ruled suspicious and her body was being exhumed. Since the Daybells had been in Hawaii since December 1st, there was nobody left to kill Alex; he probably committed suicide due to the police closing in. As far as I'm concerned that's the end of the story.
You're leaving out Alex's new wife, whose name he took. She's a close friend of Lori, and from what we've learned so far, at least as nutty as Lori is, if not more so. I wouldn't rule her out for killing Alex at Lori's request.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 07:43 AM   #197
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Er, wait... Is his wife Lori's friend? I'm not even sure it's the same woman he was dating/living when he died. Could I get a reference? The gal he was living with probably is....
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Old 23rd February 2020, 07:56 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Er, wait... Is his wife Lori's friend? I'm not even sure it's the same woman he was dating/living when he died. Could I get a reference? The gal he was living with probably is....
... Zulema Pastenes!

How would one pronounce that last name? It looks like "past tense" to me...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ce-family.html
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Old 23rd February 2020, 08:03 AM   #199
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New article showing doorbell footage of JJ playing with the neighbors on 17 September.
https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/0...-disappearing/

Well, things may get even weirder. Someone pointed out in the comments that the Idaho side of Yellowstone is sometimes called the Zone of Death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_Death_(legal)

Essence is that it would be hypothetically possible to commit a crime that could not be fairly tried.

ETA: By hypothetically, I do not mean to imply remotely likely.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 08:06 AM   #200
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Ah, so he was living with her. My confusion was from her son's name.
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