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Old 6th June 2020, 02:09 AM   #41
Nessie
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Maybe this needs to happen more often, instead of it being a one off?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...dly-force.html

"U.S. Police Leaders, Visiting Scotland, Get Lessons on Avoiding Deadly Force"

"...officers (in Scotland) routinely take punches, he said, but the last time one was killed on duty through criminal violence was 1994, in a stabbing.
There is poverty, crime and a “pathological hatred of officers wearing our uniform” in pockets of Scotland, he said, but constables live where they work and embrace their role as “guardians of the community,” not warriors from a policing subculture."
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:12 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Police/citizen interactions in the US are estimated at about 2 million per day. A total of 106 police officers were killed in 2017. Of those 106 fatalities - 44 were from gunshot wounds. That means that 730,000,000 interactions resulted in fatal gunfire that killed 44 cops. Or, 1 out of every 16,500,000 cop/citizen interactions results in the death of a cop by gunfire.
Anybody that thinks those numbers equate a situation where cops have to presume that they are about to be shot during each citizen interaction is falling for the hype.
That is why being a police officer in the US does not even make it into the top ten most dangerous jobs.
I am generalising. Cops in gangland LA will have a different experience than those in farmland Main.

Just look at how cops are trained to approach a stopped vehicle and you will see, there is always an assumption by the police that they are potentially dealing with an armed person.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
Stephen Colbert interviews Rep. Karen Bass, Chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus, about a police reform bill they will introduce in both the House and Senate on Monday.
Some of the things she talks about are starting a police database, banning choke holds, and banning no knock warrents
Interview starts at 2 minutes in.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
The proper use of a choke hold by someone well trained in its use is an extremely effective and humane way to subdue a violent perpetrator.
Not all policing is done where there are sufficient personnel to subdue violent people by overwhelming them with sheer numbers. Without a choke hold - police officers will be forced to use baton strikes or their firearms to subdue violent people resisting arrest. (Please do not talk about tasers as they are totally useless when outer clothing like coats are being worn. Pepper spray is also useless in many circumstances).

I used blood flow restricting choke holds (referred to by the RCMP as the "carotid control hold) many times in my career and so have hundreds if not thousands of other RCMP officers working in small towns where little or no backup was available. The person wakes up with a headache but is good to go within minutes of its use. Properly applied - it is far less damaging than the amount of damage a fist or baton strike to render a person "compliant" will cause.
It looks bad to the public and it has a bad reputation amongst politicians - but it has been used in Judo for about 140 years and no fatalities have been reported due to its use in that sport.
It is a matter of training - not the hold itself - that is the problem.
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Old 6th June 2020, 02:50 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am generalising. Cops in gangland LA will have a different experience than those in farmland Main.

Just look at how cops are trained to approach a stopped vehicle and you will see, there is always an assumption by the police that they are potentially dealing with an armed person.
I know how cops are trained to stop a vehicle these days and it is quite ridiculous.
I was a firearms and use of force instructor for the RCMP when the military mindset became common in the US due to the overwhelming number of Vietnam vets hired as cops moving up into positions of authority. I fought that attitude when its effects began to ooze across the border into Canada. Making "dangerous takedown arrests" standard operating procedure is a result of a military mindset that is the antithesis of policing.
Such dramatic overkill only puts a strain on police/community relations.
The idea that "one dead cop is too many" is absurd. The number of police officers killed while approaching a vehicle has never justified the fear in any city. Such fear kills citizens far more often than police officers are killed.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 6th June 2020 at 02:51 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 6th June 2020, 03:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
To be accurate, the police in the UK shot three people to death (and one of those was a terrorist in the middle of attacking people in the street). There are other deaths that may have been caused by the police (but even then, the total numbers are well below the US rates for shooting alone https://www.statista.com/statistics/...and-and-wales/ ).
Thanks for that distinction. I got my info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

They include fatalities not involving a firearm, but still only identify three police killings for 2019.
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Old 6th June 2020, 03:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Police/citizen interactions in the US are estimated at about 2 million per day. A total of 106 police officers were killed in 2017. Of those 106 fatalities - 44 were from gunshot wounds.
I want to say most of those deaths are from traffic accidents. I also want to say that cops are even more likely to die by suicide than car accident.

ETA: Washington Post:

Quote:
The Bottom Line

Data from the FBI and the national nonprofit that tracks police deaths in real time show that, indeed, traffic-related incidents are the leading cause of death among police officers. This has certainly been the case in the past 10 to 15 years. And in those years, the overall number of police deaths has decreased.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...fic-incidents/
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Last edited by Cain; 6th June 2020 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 6th June 2020, 04:37 AM   #47
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Who's we?

Are you asking what your community should do about your police force(s)?

Are you asking what you should do about mine, or what I should do about yours?
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Old 6th June 2020, 04:49 AM   #48
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Defund and prioritize other models of community policing. More social workers and less cops. Almost anything else would be a better use for that money.

There's no reason why a man with a gun needs to be responding to the day to day petty crimes on the street.
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Old 6th June 2020, 05:22 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who's we?

Are you asking what your community should do about your police force(s)?

Are you asking what you should do about mine, or what I should do about yours?
You know what the subject of this thread is. As does everyone else. These dishonest ******** posts **** me.
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Old 6th June 2020, 05:32 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The USA will never solve its gun problem, there are too many guns already in the wrong hands. So, the USA will never be able to solve its policing problem because cops will always have to presume they are about to be shot.
15 years ago my home city, Long Beach, CA, had a scandal where the police were selling guns from the evidence locker back to the street gangs. So, yeah, that problem probably won't ever be solved.
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Old 6th June 2020, 05:58 AM   #51
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While dangerous, there are many more jobs that are more dangerous. Their fear needs to be better contextualized.
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Old 6th June 2020, 06:02 AM   #52
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So much to parse here....
I listened to an interview with several activists yesterday. One wanted to disarm the police (this was all in L.A.). One wanted to “defund” the police.... Or have no police whatever. The third was actually on the city council, and wanted more emphasis on training and such... Realized that policing was a necessity.

I’ve addressed the idea of disarming police on other forums. Unfortunately, the US has a long history of violent resistance to police activities.... Unlike other countries where police officer routinely don’t carry firearms.
Just locally, in the last few years, we’ve had officers killed, paralyzed, and seriously wounded by people stopped for “routine” traffic violations. These people are out for “suicide by cop”, fueled by various forms of hatred, or insane.
As noted, America as a society is heavily armed and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. In fact, it’s evident that SCOTUS is leaning towards more “affirmation” of the 2nd Amendment.
Although police work may not be statistically as dangerous as many other professions, it’s still the case that numbers (around 100) officers are killed annually in the line of duty. ANY citizen contact has the potential to become violent, and increasingly any citizen may be armed.
The idea of a community “policing itself” seems to me to be pie-in-the-sky Utopianism. One of these activists said when asked about violent felonies... “Maybe the guy just needs a hug.”
A nice sentiment but quite divorced from reality.

The idea of “defunding” police departments is usually mentioned in the context of the perceived “militarization” of police. But.... We are now considered to be part of Homeland Security and tasked with responding to all manner of violent incidents... Terrorist attacks, active shooters, barricade and hostage situations....
We must be equipped to perform these functions, since who else is going to? The actual military? Imagine how many people would die in an active shooter situation if you had to mobilize the “guard” to respond.
And, we are not that militarized. “Riot” gear is essentially unchanged since the sixties. Much was made of the military unloading surplus equipment on local police agencies... Most of which would sit and collect dust as it was quite unsuitable for police use.

I wrote before about systemic racism in society (ALL societies) and how that creeps into police work even with extensive training in opposition. I don’t have any ready answers for this as neither have generations of civil-rights activists.

When you put officers into a situation where they are routinely dealing with the “worst of the worst” and seeing the depravity that humans are capable of, with very little in the way of positive interaction with anyone.... Little doubt that that “Us vs. them” mentality rises.

Officers in “bedroom communities” or (like myself) in university settings, do not see this. It’s very easy for me to be “officer nice-guy” on a daily basis, sensitive to racial and ethnic and gender concerns and so forth. Not so much for my colleagues working the “north side” of the city with almost 200 homicides per year and weekly shootings numbering in the teens....
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Old 6th June 2020, 06:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
and increasingly any citizen may be armed.
Gun ownership appears to have remained steady since the 70s. It does not appear increasingly likely that any citizen will be armed.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ing-a-firearm/

Also, the country is just so much safer than it used to be. It is also so much safer for cops than it used to be.

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Old 6th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
So much to parse here....
I listened to an interview with several activists yesterday. One wanted to disarm the police (this was all in L.A.). One wanted to “defund” the police.... Or have no police whatever. The third was actually on the city council, and wanted more emphasis on training and such... Realized that policing was a necessity.

I’ve addressed the idea of disarming police on other forums. Unfortunately, the US has a long history of violent resistance to police activities.... Unlike other countries where police officer routinely don’t carry firearms.
Just locally, in the last few years, we’ve had officers killed, paralyzed, and seriously wounded by people stopped for “routine” traffic violations. These people are out for “suicide by cop”, fueled by various forms of hatred, or insane.
As noted, America as a society is heavily armed and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. In fact, it’s evident that SCOTUS is leaning towards more “affirmation” of the 2nd Amendment.
Although police work may not be statistically as dangerous as many other professions, it’s still the case that numbers (around 100) officers are killed annually in the line of duty. ANY citizen contact has the potential to become violent, and increasingly any citizen may be armed.
The idea of a community “policing itself” seems to me to be pie-in-the-sky Utopianism. One of these activists said when asked about violent felonies... “Maybe the guy just needs a hug.”
A nice sentiment but quite divorced from reality.

The idea of “defunding” police departments is usually mentioned in the context of the perceived “militarization” of police. But.... We are now considered to be part of Homeland Security and tasked with responding to all manner of violent incidents... Terrorist attacks, active shooters, barricade and hostage situations....
We must be equipped to perform these functions, since who else is going to? The actual military? Imagine how many people would die in an active shooter situation if you had to mobilize the “guard” to respond.
And, we are not that militarized. “Riot” gear is essentially unchanged since the sixties. Much was made of the military unloading surplus equipment on local police agencies... Most of which would sit and collect dust as it was quite unsuitable for police use.

I wrote before about systemic racism in society (ALL societies) and how that creeps into police work even with extensive training in opposition. I don’t have any ready answers for this as neither have generations of civil-rights activists.

When you put officers into a situation where they are routinely dealing with the “worst of the worst” and seeing the depravity that humans are capable of, with very little in the way of positive interaction with anyone.... Little doubt that that “Us vs. them” mentality rises.

Officers in “bedroom communities” or (like myself) in university settings, do not see this. It’s very easy for me to be “officer nice-guy” on a daily basis, sensitive to racial and ethnic and gender concerns and so forth. Not so much for my colleagues working the “north side” of the city with almost 200 homicides per year and weekly shootings numbering in the teens....
SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics) was specifically created to handle those dangerous situations as opposed to standard police.

Precincts don't need to be equipped with ATVs to handle their communities. If there is a situation where an ATV is actually necessary I wouldn't trust them to handle the situation properly.

As far as "seeing the worst of the worst", the answer would be taking the money spent on policing and using that to fund social programs which help those in poor communities. "Broken Windows" policing is not getting the job done, so why do we continue to fund the police like it is making the communities better?
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Old 6th June 2020, 06:15 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
. We are now considered to be part of Homeland Security and tasked with responding to all manner of violent incidents... Terrorist attacks, active shooters, barricade and hostage situations....
Violence is also down in the country. Police are responding to fewer crimes now.
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Old 6th June 2020, 06:19 AM   #56
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To me, kind of like every nation gets the government it deserves, so is every nation's policing reflective of itself. And like Trump, police you get are a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself.

During individual interactions, Americans are largely unreasonable and individualistic to the extent that any perceived correction or coercion by an authority figure is akin to personal insult. Simple requests like "Pleas don't park there" or "I'm issuing a citation for driving 72 in a 55mph zone" are in my experience met with insult, disdain, and resentment. A society of Karens. The resulting opposite reaction are police forces that loathe those they're charged to protect. This attitude is offensive. People do not respect others. This effect is magnified in low income, high crime areas.

People in careful consideration, like those answering opinion polls or crafting policy, find it easy to accept that police must enforce reasonably constructed rules. People being charged with crimes display no such understanding.

So when policing is referred to as a "thankless" job, it is true. Maybe not in Scotland, I don't know. I think it wears on people being hated wherever they go. This is not to excuse kneeling on a person's neck and killing them in any way, I just get the feeling that "police culture" is more or less an inevitable reaction to public behavior. Just as the public are more heavily armed, the police find it necessary to become more militarized. Police who work in high crime areas that must often physically subdue offenders are probably more likely to physically subdue offenders. I guess what I'm saying is if we fix ourselves, the police will be fixed too. The issue goes deeper than rules we might put in place and the reason things are so seemingly different here than in other, more peaceful countries aren't because of our rules but because of our culture.

In terms of reducing actual unjust violent interactions with police by training and rules. I think RockinKT had some great points on the first page. Taking a step further, I'd love to see a situation where being an officer simply paid more and first contacts were somehow always initiated by unarmed officers. I just don't know that such is realistic in the good ol' USA.
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Old 6th June 2020, 06:29 AM   #57
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Ideally a society, any society, should need minimal policing. Ideally. Instead of thinking of policing as a permanent fixture, we should actively work towards getting closer to that ideal kind of society, as close as we can, and think of policing, or at least heavy policing, the kind we have now, as essentially a temporary (and distasteful!) stop gap.

Pie in the sky? Probably! Especially when we have the orange assclown in charge of things, who's doing his best to make our present system a stop gap on the way to some crazy nazilike literally police state or something.
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:07 AM   #58
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How about doing away with police as Revenue Agents? Make all fines go to the state, not the local government. Confront drivers only when they do something unsafe. (Hint: few stop light violations are unsafe). Use the man power savings to cut the a-holes off the force.
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:26 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How about doing away with police as Revenue Agents? Make all fines go to the state, not the local government. Confront drivers only when they do something unsafe. (Hint: few stop light violations are unsafe). Use the man power savings to cut the a-holes off the force.
So long as the government gets money out of it, there's an incentive.

Fines should be returned to citizens in the form of a rebate check.
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:32 AM   #60
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- A revamp of police hiring and vetting practices, including a full on deep dive into extremists infiltration of the police.

- A revamp of police training. Ironically I don't see this as much of a big deal as a lot of people probably are because a lot of the problems with police are of the "We shouldn't have to tell you this" variety and I don't want cops to get off via "Well nobody specifically told me I couldn't do (insert thing you obviously shouldn't do here) so it's not my fault." To me more police training is like running more "Don't shake your baby!" PSAs. People aren't shaking their babies because the idea its not a good idea just never occurred to them. Cops aren't firing tear gas at people in wheelchairs because nobody trained them not to do it.

- More police oversight. I'm going to cause some pearl clutching here but little podunk one stoplight towns shouldn't have their own totally autonomous police forces.

- A massive de-militarization of the police. Special reaction units like SWAT will always have a place, but they should be rarely used and very highly trained. A normal beat cop doesn't need full tac gear.

- A massive cultural change away from the "Police are an invading force in a hostile occupied territory" mentality.

- A Constitutional Amendment banning law enforcement from any and all revenue generating activities.
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:36 AM   #61
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Another statistic to show why the problems of the US police are insurmountable;

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...e-2011/328297/

"According to Germany's Der Spiegel, German police shot only 85 bullets in all of 2011, a stark reminder that not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. of A. As Boing Boing translates, most of those shots weren't even aimed anyone: "49 warning shots, 36 shots on suspects. 15 persons were injured, 6 were killed."

"Meanwhile, in the U.S., where the population is little less than four times the size of Germany's, well, we can get to 85 in just one sitting, thank you very much. 84 shots fired at one murder suspect in Harlem, another 90 shot at one fleeing unarmed man in Los Angeles. And that was just April."
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:38 AM   #62
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The police also have one of the most powerful unions in the country and (like it or not, admit it or not Democrats) that is going to keep the Left from being the hammer down quite as much as they otherwise would.
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Maybe this needs to happen more often, instead of it being a one off?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...dly-force.html

"U.S. Police Leaders, Visiting Scotland, Get Lessons on Avoiding Deadly Force"

"...officers (in Scotland) routinely take punches, he said, but the last time one was killed on duty through criminal violence was 1994, in a stabbing.
There is poverty, crime and a “pathological hatred of officers wearing our uniform” in pockets of Scotland, he said, but constables live where they work and embrace their role as “guardians of the community,” not warriors from a policing subculture."
This is my instinct as well. If we're trying to figure out how to transcend our problems with policing, a major component seems like it should be modelling those places that don't have those problems.

Of course, many differences may be due to differences between countries, but I don't buy the argument that there's something about America which necessitates so much police brutality and escalation. Especially coming from nationalists who simultaeneously insist that we're the best country in the world on every measure.
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Old 6th June 2020, 07:49 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How about doing away with police as Revenue Agents? Make all fines go to the state, not the local government. Confront drivers only when they do something unsafe. (Hint: few stop light violations are unsafe). Use the man power savings to cut the a-holes off the force.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So long as the government gets money out of it, there's an incentive.

Fines should be returned to citizens in the form of a rebate check.
It may be relatively unimportant in the big picture nowadays, but there's a good point here. It's not entirely that laws should not be enforced, but here in Vermont, small towns often set up as speed traps and have either constables or hire county sheriffs, because the town gets a big part of the ticket revenue, and the result is an excess of zeal that, while it pales in comparison with what's happening elsewhere now, is shabby and bothersome. Towns, of course, become addicted to the tax-lowering revenue stream, but it's a nuisance at least. Towns often set ridiculously low speed limits in short stretches so that they can entrap motorists, and because the fines are graduated for how many miles over the limit one goes, the low limits make for big fines.

While it's true that state police arrests, for example, still generate funds for the state, the incentive is different, and state troopers don't have speed trapping as their only task, and their behavior is less egregious as a result.

It's a minor issue at this moment, I think, but I agree that law enforcement should be about law enforcement and not revenue.

On that last issue, I recall not too long ago, a local policeman refusing to act on a domestic issue for which he was called, stating outright that he was hired for traffic, not for other police duties.
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Old 6th June 2020, 08:34 AM   #65
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A few days ago I was seeing some photos of the current protests compared to photos from Furgeson in 2014. One thing I noticed is that there actually was some progress since then.

Looking at photos of Furgeson, one sees a whole lot of police and armored vehicles all in military colors. Olive drab, camo, all that. Compare to the current wave of protest, where most of the police have dark blue or black armor and equipment - not a whole lot better, but at least it looks less like a military force.

Also, there do seem to be fewer armored vehicles in use. More pickups with running boards for police to ride along on the outside, but fewer big armored vehicles.

Also prominent at Furgeson were images of the police pointing guns (actual guns, not just paintball or teargas guns) at protesters. That too seems to have decreased. The police in the current protests seem to have fewer long guns and rarely draw them compared to Furgeson in 2014.

Don't get me wrong - these were not huge changes, and often were just a reversion to what had been the norm not so many years before Furgeson. But it does demonstrate that the protests can have an impact.

As for changes, weakening police unions seems good, obvious point. Maybe let them continue to exist to bargain for wages, retirement packages, OT rates, medical coverage, all that. But remove any and all consideration of disciplinary procedures and LE tactics from union influence.

National minimum standards for police training, coupled with a national registry of certified LE people can also be done. As stated previously, an analogue already exists for Emergency Medical people. That would not prevent LE agencies from adding additional requirements or from tailoring training to suit the demands of their community. But it would also ensure a basic minimum is met and set a mechanism to prevent rehire of officers with troubled disciplinary records.
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Old 6th June 2020, 09:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I see a whole lot of protesting, but let's get to some actual suggestions:

1. Do away with police unions. The clown heading up the union in Minneapolis might have helped this cause along quite a bit. One of the problems with trying to reform the police is that the unions have quite a bit of political clout:



Think about that for a second. Santa Ana's police union was able to raise $500,000 to vote out a city councilmember. How were they able to raise that much dough?



Gee, can't imagine any other city councilmembers voting against pay raises for the cops anytime soon.



IMHO, you have to get rid of the unions first and that is going to be insanely difficult unless the current national movement pushes in that direction. Citizen Review Boards are fine, but if they don't have real power to fire and/or recommend charges be filed against officers then they are useless.

2. Getting rid of the police. Now an editor at Vice was forced to apologize for saying this was a poorly thought-out idea, so I won't make that mistake. In fact, it is an idea that shows no sign of having been thought-out at all.

Other ideas?
Regarding police unions: I think that if meaningful reform actually happens, at some point, police unions are going to resort to strikes, sickouts, or similar job actions. Local leaders need to respond to these like Ronald Reagan did to the air traffic controllers strike: Fire anybody who doesn't report for work. This will likely cause some serious short-term problems with understaffing of affected police departments, but would also be a great opportunity to build a decent police force from scratch.
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Old 6th June 2020, 10:05 AM   #67
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Well, the capitalist solution is to require police officers to buy liability insurance. If there are to many incidents, their rates will skyrocket and they will be squeezed out economically. Plus it shifts lawsuit costs away from the taxpayer.
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Old 6th June 2020, 10:20 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I know how cops are trained to stop a vehicle these days and it is quite ridiculous.
I was a firearms and use of force instructor for the RCMP when the military mindset became common in the US due to the overwhelming number of Vietnam vets hired as cops moving up into positions of authority. I fought that attitude when its effects began to ooze across the border into Canada. Making "dangerous takedown arrests" standard operating procedure is a result of a military mindset that is the antithesis of policing.
Such dramatic overkill only puts a strain on police/community relations.
The idea that "one dead cop is too many" is absurd. The number of police officers killed while approaching a vehicle has never justified the fear in any city. Such fear kills citizens far more often than police officers are killed.
As far as I'm concerned, the safety of the public should take priority over the safety of the police. I'm not suggesting at all that law enforcement officers shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves; just that much of the current training that emphasizes that every person you interact with is likely to try to shoot you and you'd better shoot them first probably increases danger to the public too much for whatever benefit it may have in police safety. Training cops to a state of hyper-vigilance and emphasizing quick action is going to result in people needlessly killed when police officers mis-perceive a situation and respond by emptying there weapons into the mis-perceived "threat". And misperception will happen, because police officers are human beings.

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Old 6th June 2020, 10:39 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As a former cop - the following spring immediately to mind:

Make rookie cops go unarmed for the first two years of duty. The firearm has to stop being the first response to any perceived threat.
Failing that - police officers should be made to work alone (with reasonable back-up available) as much as possible. That way they will learn communication and de-escalation skills. Getting tuned up by an upset member of the public is a great way to learn that you are not a god and that nobody appreciates getting talked to like a second class citizen just because some idiot taught you "Command Authority" in training.

Stop teaching cops that they have a dangerous job. It isn't and we must stop the self glorification that such an ethos creates.

Any cop that is heard using the term "civilian" should be immediately fired. That is a military term and a military mindset is the exact wrong attitude to have.

SWAT or like units should be comprised of non police personnel. They should also be removed from the control of local police and only be used as a last resort when all other options have been carefully considered. Far too many incidents involving the "kill or be killed" mindset of these units results in deaths of innocent people.

A national standard for police training needs to be developed and enforced. All former military people should be barred from any police training facility. Police training must be devoid of all military mindsets. You are police officer - not a soldier. Your goals and how you achieve them are different.

Make it a very serious offence to not report a felony by a fellow cop.

Police unions are a double edged sword. Police deserve good pay and decent benefits (like anybody else)- but unions should not be a barrier that interferes with proper investigations of alleged malfeasance. Union funding of good defence lawyers is fair as long as the money is drawn from union dues only.
Good post. There's a few things there I'd normally be inclined to argue with, due to my UK Centric viewpoint, but obviously the situation in America is different and I think you make a lot of sense.
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Old 6th June 2020, 11:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t know how many times I’ve said this over the years. One force per state would solve most of the problems with ill disciplined and poorly trained and resourced police. My state of Victoria has a population of about 6.5 million and a police force of 22,000. This is a large force by world standards and police behaviour is not perfect, but public approval is strong.
.....
Does that mean that every cop in Victoria belongs to the same force? The detectives who investigate homicides in Melbourne belong to the same force as guys who write parking tickets in a village? There must still be friction and competition among various elements of the force. And I know Australia also has a uniformed federal police force. How do the layers overlap?

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What are the barriers to abolishing or amalgamating the thousands of US police forces? I don’t think it’s constitutional. Is it just inertia?
The U.S. developed with multiple levels of government that have distinct but overlapping responsibilities. You might be a resident of a town or city within a county within a state, and they all have different jurisdictions and local codes. There's no movement to centralize policing. If anything, people are more iikely to think of the local cops as "their" police, and wouldn't want to lose them. And of course every institution works to protect itself. Nobody who benefits from being an official in one of thousands of police forces would want to give it up.

I think it might be realistic to consolidate small-town departments into one county force, as is the case in many counties now. Much beyond that, not very likely.
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Old 6th June 2020, 11:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As a former cop - the following spring immediately to mind:

Make rookie cops go unarmed for the first two years of duty. The firearm has to stop being the first response to any perceived threat.
Failing that - police officers should be made to work alone (with reasonable back-up available) as much as possible. That way they will learn communication and de-escalation skills. Getting tuned up by an upset member of the public is a great way to learn that you are not a god and that nobody appreciates getting talked to like a second class citizen just because some idiot taught you "Command Authority" in training.

Stop teaching cops that they have a dangerous job. It isn't and we must stop the self glorification that such an ethos creates.

Any cop that is heard using the term "civilian" should be immediately fired. That is a military term and a military mindset is the exact wrong attitude to have.

SWAT or like units should be comprised of non police personnel. They should also be removed from the control of local police and only be used as a last resort when all other options have been carefully considered. Far too many incidents involving the "kill or be killed" mindset of these units results in deaths of innocent people.

A national standard for police training needs to be developed and enforced. All former military people should be barred from any police training facility. Police training must be devoid of all military mindsets. You are police officer - not a soldier. Your goals and how you achieve them are different.

Make it a very serious offence to not report a felony by a fellow cop.

Police unions are a double edged sword. Police deserve good pay and decent benefits (like anybody else)- but unions should not be a barrier that interferes with proper investigations of alleged malfeasance. Union funding of good defence lawyers is fair as long as the money is drawn from union dues only.

A lot of this makes sense. But I would say putting cops on the street unarmed in the U.S. would make them sitting ducks unless they are always accompanied by armed cops, which creates staffing problems. You also don't want them responding to calls and having citizens say "I don't want no trainee! Send me a real cop!" And you never want to allow citizens to "tune up" a cop without severe consequences. Stopping brutality in one direction doesn't mean allowing it in the other.

I also don't think that military service should be a disqualifying factor. It just shouldn't be treated as especially desirable. And not all veterans have served in combat. Somebody who fixed trucks in Frankfurt or updated computer software in Omaha probably hasn't developed the "kill or be killed" mindset.
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Old 6th June 2020, 11:53 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Get rid of the Qualified Immunity
Yup. Qualified immunity isn't even part of our laws.
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Old 6th June 2020, 12:01 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yup. Qualified immunity isn't even part of our laws.
Yes it is.
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Old 6th June 2020, 12:15 PM   #74
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Here is a far out solution...

Require all patrol cars to go out on patrol with a defense attorney present. And every suspect/witness/person of interest the police interact with, the attorney can immediately offer to represent that person.
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Old 6th June 2020, 12:22 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes it is.
Nope. It's something judges made up. There isn't a single piece of legislation that establishes qualified immunity.
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Old 6th June 2020, 12:23 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Here is a far out solution...

Require all patrol cars to go out on patrol with a defense attorney present. And every suspect/witness/person of interest the police interact with, the attorney can immediately offer to represent that person.
"Ah, yeah this is patrolmen Daniel and Mount, ah, we had another defense attorney make a furtive movement and resist arrest..."
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Old 6th June 2020, 12:26 PM   #77
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yup. Qualified immunity isn't even part of our laws.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. It's something judges made up. There isn't a single piece of legislation that establishes qualified immunity.
The US common law system allows judicial decisions to create law. Legislation isn't the only method.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Quote:
In law, common law (also known as judicial precedent or judge-made law, or case law) is the body of law derived from judicial decisions of courts and similar tribunals.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The defining characteristic of “common law” is that it arises as precedent.
There are a few descriptors you can use. I am always a fan of "illegitimate." But "not law" isn't one of them.
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Old 6th June 2020, 12:50 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Thanks for that distinction. I got my info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom



They include fatalities not involving a firearm, but still only identify three police killings for 2019.
I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain that's because UK cops are too cowardly to fight crime, especially in all thos Mooslim no-go areas.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:07 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As a former cop - the following spring immediately to mind:

Make rookie cops go unarmed for the first two years of duty. The firearm has to stop being the first response to any perceived threat.
Failing that - police officers should be made to work alone (with reasonable back-up available) as much as possible. That way they will learn communication and de-escalation skills. Getting tuned up by an upset member of the public is a great way to learn that you are not a god and that nobody appreciates getting talked to like a second class citizen just because some idiot taught you "Command Authority" in training.

Stop teaching cops that they have a dangerous job. It isn't and we must stop the self glorification that such an ethos creates.

Any cop that is heard using the term "civilian" should be immediately fired. That is a military term and a military mindset is the exact wrong attitude to have.

SWAT or like units should be comprised of non police personnel. They should also be removed from the control of local police and only be used as a last resort when all other options have been carefully considered. Far too many incidents involving the "kill or be killed" mindset of these units results in deaths of innocent people.

A national standard for police training needs to be developed and enforced. All former military people should be barred from any police training facility. Police training must be devoid of all military mindsets. You are police officer - not a soldier. Your goals and how you achieve them are different.

Make it a very serious offence to not report a felony by a fellow cop.

Police unions are a double edged sword. Police deserve good pay and decent benefits (like anybody else)- but unions should not be a barrier that interferes with proper investigations of alleged malfeasance. Union funding of good defence lawyers is fair as long as the money is drawn from union dues only.
I like this. I'd also prohibit bans on hiring smart people.
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Old 6th June 2020, 01:11 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But can you do all that and still find people to do the often violent job of cop?
Police work, despite the illusions and claims, is not that dangerous. Seriously roofers, grounds-keepers, refuse collectors and truck drivers have more dangerous jobs.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But that sounds easy, but let me ask: Have YOU ever experienced your own "Flight or Fight" situation?
Yes.
Social care workers, for example, are trained to de-escalate situations, your police should be too.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
If not, can YOU stop in the middle of an orgasm?
Yes.
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