ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 15th June 2020, 10:48 AM   #241
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 10,798
In case it hasn't been posted, John Oliver has a pretty thorough overview of the issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 11:27 AM   #242
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,257
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Quite right.
After, of course, everyone with the option of leaving has done so.
Not necessarily; one of the primary strategies of Sinn Féin in the Anglo-Irish war war the usurpation and replacement of the functions of governance, tax collection, local government, law enforcement and courts, effectively de-ligitimising the British administration.

If the current US situation were to proceed to a full insurrection (not beyond the bounds of possibility given police violence, the increasing spread of Covid-19 and Trump) I'd expect to see grounds arming themselves by looting military and (especially given their terrible security) Guard armouries and specifically targeting police and administrative functions of government.

Given the availability of information it would not be difficult to (for example) obtain the addresses of all serving Minneapolis police officers (I can personally think of eight ways to do this) and target them en-masse. If (say) fifty police officers have their homes petrol bombed over the course of one night it will have several effects; police retaliation and further violence, loss of police morale and willingness to die and a perception of lack of effective governance in the city.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 11:28 AM   #243
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,257
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Can you be more specific? I am not aware of any study that shows giving money to addicts is useful as a treatment strategy.
Do you have anything useful or relevant to say? Or will you be continuing with your usual nonsensical strawmannery?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 11:30 AM   #244
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,257
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, the police having very little credibility in the communities they serve makes their job harder. They should work on not being seen as an occupying army of thugs.
But they are, in two ways; one as an army of occupation, disconnected from 'normal people' and secondly as just another criminal gang, when they sometimes resemble.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2020, 12:15 PM   #245
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 16,388
I think it would be wasteful to get rid of the police entirely. We should simply remove them from public spaces and place them in their own special museums, where they could be properly maintained while acknowledging their role in our contentious history.
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 10:10 AM   #246
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28,859
This essay, written by an ex-cop, makes the argument that the police should be disbanded entirely, and the resources should be used elsewhere, such as for funding social programmes.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 07:49 PM   #247
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,654
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
That is what cops are trying to do now. Bad actors are what police call criminals. Fortunately - most police are not breaking the law and arresting and jailing people who have not committed a crime.
I would not want to live a society where the law allows youto be "removed" just because somebody thinks you might commit a crime. Would you?




More patrols just make little old ladies happy. At the best more patrols just displace crime.





Pleasant thought but never going to work in high crime areas where children are taught to hate police and that being a "rat" is the most heinous crime of all.
Also, it doesn't matter how much PR you do - you arrest somebody's husband, father, cousin, or friend for criminal acts and they are going to end up hating police.
Furthermore, the idea of giving information to the police is a taboo that is deeply ingrained in a many people's minds.
We had a case in a very wealthy neighborhood where a middle aged man was killed by a group of rowdy drunk and drugged out high schoolers when he went to a neighbor's house to find his kid. Not one of the dozens of very wealthy and privileged teens was willing to cooperate with police. Even the two sons of a police officer stuck to the "code" that has been instilled in these kids from movies, TV shows, and music. Being a "rat" is more heinous than murder in many people's eyes and that has nothing to do with how they view police.



Street lighting is just as ineffective as more patrols.
The effectiveness of most social programs is a matter of debate.
Social programs in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside area have proven to pretty well worthless. On average, over a million dollars a day is spent on social programs in that area alone to no discernable positive effect.
Got a social program that will work that hasn't been done before in this area?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...de-shocked-me/
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How much of that million was given to the residents?
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
They already go through millions of dollars a day in illegal drugs. Giving a drug addict or alcoholic more money to feed their addictions is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All the residents are addicts and alcoholics?
Your question/comment/snarky emoticon shows your obvious ignorance of the situation in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver. Why not inform yourself or ask a question of two before you play what appears to be virtue signalling game pretending to have a superior intellectual grasp on the situation?

The vast majority of the residents on the street in that area do not start out as residents of the area. Very few people that were born there have stayed. The long time businesses and residents are gone - chased away by the violent and abhorrent activities that occur on the street in large numbers on a daily basis

“I was here 20 years ago and it’s now very different,” Baumgarten says. “The people on the street. What happened?”

In a July 9 podcast, the former Toronto Raptor (Danny Green) called East Hastings the “worst street in North America” in terms of open drug use.

The area has evolved into a homeless paradise due to a "hands off" attitude by the local police and social programs that guarantee lots of food. The weather in Vancouver is also conducive to street living as winters are so mild compared to all other parts of Canada. There are an estimated 300 social programs active in the area. $365 million is about the average amount in social programming spent in the area per year.
The people who wind up there are from all over Canada and already suffering from major issues and that is the problem. There are there because the drugs are easy to score and the living is so easy compared to where they are from. Putting cash in their hands is such a ridiculous idea that my first thought was that you must be joking!

Leland, 60, speaks to the Courier for more than an hour near Main and Cordova streets. He speaks to changes he’s seen in the area, his interactions with tourists and the ever-increasing tension over Oppenheimer Park.
The park is a lightning rod for Leland, and he suggests, few if any, of the campers are longtime Vancouverites. Instead, Leland, Nelson and Pastorcic all insist Vancouver is a destination for homeless people from across Canada.

“Everybody’s got a sh***y end of town. We are the sh***y end of town. Us guys down here, we know it’s a sh***y end of town,” Leland said. “If you’ve got to be poor, East Van is the easiest place to be poor. You get three, four meals a day for nothing. That’s what attracts people to Oppenheimer Park.”
https://www.vancourier.com/news/how-...ted-1.23920263
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 16th June 2020 at 07:52 PM.
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2020, 09:35 PM   #248
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,525
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This essay, written by an ex-cop, makes the argument that the police should be disbanded entirely, and the resources should be used elsewhere, such as for funding social programmes.
I call dibs on everything this guys owns once the police are abolished.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 04:09 AM   #249
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,721
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I call dibs on everything this guys owns once the police are abolished.
You don't have to wait. Clearance rates for burglary were less than 13% in the US in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper...ted%20Kingdom.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 04:58 AM   #250
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,525
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You don't have to wait. Clearance rates for burglary were less than 13% in the US in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper...ted%20Kingdom.
I was speaking literally: I will take his house too. I will take it all. What's he going to do when i change the locks? Call the police?
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 05:10 AM   #251
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,928
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I was speaking literally: I will take his house too. I will take it all.
No, in fact, you won't, and you know perfectly well you won't.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 05:59 AM   #252
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,721
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I was speaking literally: I will take his house too. I will take it all. What's he going to do when i change the locks? Call the police?
When he comes back with all his neighbors, friends, and family to curb stomp you in front of the home, who you gonna call?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:02 AM   #253
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,566
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
When he comes back with all his neighbors, friends, and family to curb stomp you in front of the home, who you gonna call?
Yeah that's going to work out well for black Americans.
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:03 AM   #254
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,195
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
When he comes back with all his neighbors, friends, and family to curb stomp you in front of the home, who you gonna call?
Difficult to argue with logic like that.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:05 AM   #255
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,721
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Difficult to argue with logic like that.
To be fair, I'm not giving the absurd hypothetical much thought. It doesn't merit a serious response.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #256
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,912
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Other ideas?
Make sure the people hired as police officers are mentally suitable for the job and provided with training needed to do the job well.

Do not task them with stuff they aren't equipped to handle, like mental patients. Create a health system that will take care of those.

Like the normal, civilized countries have all done decades ago you know?

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:12 AM   #257
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,195
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I was speaking literally: I will take his house too. I will take it all. What's he going to do when i change the locks? Call the police?
What evidence could you possibly have that people would begin stealing things en-mass if the police are eliminated?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:42 AM   #258
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,525
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
When he comes back with all his neighbors, friends, and family to curb stomp you in front of the home, who you gonna call?
Yes that's an incredible improvement over how police would handle it today. The absence of police is unquestionably a hallmark of any forward looking society.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:45 AM   #259
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,721
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes that's an incredible improvement over how police would handle it today. The absence of police is unquestionably a hallmark of any forward looking society.
Glad you agree. Feel free to torch you local precinct.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:49 AM   #260
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,070
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This essay, written by an ex-cop, makes the argument that the police should be disbanded entirely, and the resources should be used elsewhere, such as for funding social programmes.
Is there any evidence this guy was a cop, outside of his claims?
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:53 AM   #261
William Parcher
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,455
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
When he comes back with all his neighbors, friends, and family to curb stomp you in front of the home, who you gonna call?
Ghostbusters!
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 06:59 AM   #262
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,707
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Is there any evidence this guy was a cop, outside of his claims?
If he is a cop, which I doubt, he is a failed one.

If any teacher, accountant, doctor, soldier, nurse, priest etc etc expressed similar sentiments the response would be “good, you are unsuited. Make way for someone competent”
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 07:08 AM   #263
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,070
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
When he comes back with all his neighbors, friends, and family to curb stomp you in front of the home, who you gonna call?
My neighbors, friends and family to curb stomp his neighbors, friends and family? Or maybe I'll just choose to occupy the house of an unpopular loner.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 07:09 AM   #264
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,053
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If he is a cop, which I doubt, he is a failed one.

If any teacher, accountant, doctor, soldier, nurse, priest etc etc expressed similar sentiments the response would be “good, you are unsuited. Make way for someone competent”
Great way to avoid the issues. I mean no cop would ever take issue with another cop planting evidence, that is why the NYPD cop who filmed himself doing such is still on the job. That is the mark of a successful cop..

https://atlantablackstar.com/2020/03...ate-incidents/ The kind of cop all cops are proud to work with or else they are failures.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 07:21 AM   #265
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,721
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Great way to avoid the issues. I mean no cop would ever take issue with another cop planting evidence, that is why the NYPD cop who filmed himself doing such is still on the job. That is the mark of a successful cop..

https://atlantablackstar.com/2020/03...ate-incidents/ The kind of cop all cops are proud to work with or else they are failures.
They will, however, make sure that a cop that intervenes during police brutality is fired. They actually threatened to prosecute too.

Carol Horne, a black police officer, was fired after she intervened when a white officer was using a chokehold on a suspect. 10 years later, the same officer would serve jail time for an unrelated excessive force case.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...opped-n1231016

Good cops get fired.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 07:23 AM   #266
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,053
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
They will, however, make sure that a cop that intervenes during police brutality is fired. They actually threatened to prosecute too.

Carol Horne, a black police officer, was fired after she intervened when a white officer was using a chokehold on a suspect. 10 years later, the same officer would serve jail time for an unrelated excessive force case.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...opped-n1231016

GoodFAILED cops get fired.
FIFY
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 11:45 AM   #267
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,525
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, in fact, you won't, and you know perfectly well you won't.

Dave
You are of course absolutely right. I'm not nearly enough of a ruthless psychopath to flourish in the absence of professional institutionalized law enforcement, nor do I lack the insight to recognize this.

Which is exactly why I am more than willing to support the retention of police even if they sometimes act inappropriately, like one local police officer who was just recently convicted of sexually harassing some teenage girl.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 12:28 PM   #268
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,257
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What evidence could you possibly have that people would begin stealing things en-mass if the police are eliminated?
The same beliefs that xians have that causes them to assume atheists are all potential thieves, rapists and murderers.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 12:30 PM   #269
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,195
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The same beliefs that xians have that causes them to assume atheists are all potential thieves, rapists and murderers.
Evidence. Not Belief.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 12:41 PM   #270
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,257
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Evidence. Not Belief.
And this "evidence" is?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 02:30 PM   #271
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,070
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And this "evidence" is?
We could run an experiment. Eliminate law enforcement nationwide for a year, collect data.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 02:37 PM   #272
William Parcher
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,455
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
We could run an experiment. Eliminate law enforcement nationwide for a year, collect data.
Who would be spontaneously recording the data when it's the police doing that now? I mean, data on crime begins with police reports or at least calls to police.

How would crimes be solved if Detectives and Investigators and Task Forces are eliminated?
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 02:51 PM   #273
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,070
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Who would be spontaneously recording the data when it's the police doing that now? I mean, data on crime begins with police reports or at least calls to police.
Community volunteers would respond to 911 calls with their smart phone cameras. Those that survive the year would log in reports.

Quote:
How would crimes be solved if Detectives and Investigators and Task Forces are eliminated?
They wouldn't. But at least the prison population would thin out.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 03:22 PM   #274
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,195
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
We could run an experiment. Eliminate law enforcement nationwide for a year, collect data.
How about we just overwhelm them for a night or two in a few major cities and see if widespread looting in their absence is the result.

That has not been tried recently, has it?

I mean, how dense can one be? We just had an object lesson in what happens to an unpoliced society. literally, just a couple weeks ago.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

Last edited by Distracted1; 17th June 2020 at 03:24 PM.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 03:34 PM   #275
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,070
Sacrifices must often be made in the search for truth.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2020, 09:13 PM   #276
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 6,126
Our current emergency services model is three-fold: police, fire, or ambulance. I propose we we need a fourth: social services. Trained and with a recognizable uniform, probably with their own stations and emergency vehicles.

Who should the emergency call centre dispatch?
  • The default is social services
  • If there's violence, send the police. They can call social services if needed.
  • If a person's life appears to be in danger (bleeding, heart attack,) send an ambulance.
  • If it's burning or stinks, fire department
The above would have to be tweaked if too many social service people get killed in the line of duty while attending to situations.

Social services may need power of arrest if the situation they're called to turns against the responder. They should not be armed. Funds would largely come from scaling back the police department, but having a whole additional department with its own buildings and vehicles would likely cost more than the money diverted from policing.

Unfortunately in this model Tamir Rice could still be dead because he had a visible gun (even though it was a toy.) That would probably upgrade it to a police response.

I don't know how to prevent a potential problem with a unionized social services corps becoming another wall behind which the bad apples can be hidden. It's possible a group dedicated to helping others would resist developing a "macho" or "bro" culture, but from what I've heard about nurses and doctors I wouldn't count on it.

We also need a better name than "Social Services," due to its unfortunate abbreviation.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2020, 01:17 AM   #277
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,928
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You are of course absolutely right. I'm not nearly enough of a ruthless psychopath to flourish in the absence of professional institutionalized law enforcement, nor do I lack the insight to recognize this.

Which is exactly why I am more than willing to support the retention of police even if they sometimes act inappropriately, like one local police officer who was just recently convicted of sexually harassing some teenage girl.
The problem, though, with the US police is not perceived as a generally effective service with a few outlying incidents of bad actors within it, but as a service so thoroughly broken that it is in effect causing an increase in the level of crime and a decrease in the safety of citizens. In those circumstances it's hardly surprising that some people think it would be better to abolish it altogether. I'm not saying they're right, just acknowledging where their feelings come from. Personally I recognize that there are other states a society can be in than either total anarchy or occupation by a hostile and oppressive force, and that many other countries demonstrate this beyond the possibility of doubt; however, the flip side of American exceptionalism is a barrier to implementing solutions known to be effective elsewhere. So I can understand how people who have convinced themselves that the choice is between a violently oppressive police force and no police force at all might choose the latter.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2020, 01:44 AM   #278
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,208
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Your question/comment/snarky emoticon shows your obvious ignorance of the situation in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver. Why not inform yourself or ask a question of two before you play what appears to be virtue signalling game pretending to have a superior intellectual grasp on the situation?

The vast majority of the residents on the street in that area do not start out as residents of the area. Very few people that were born there have stayed. The long time businesses and residents are gone - chased away by the violent and abhorrent activities that occur on the street in large numbers on a daily basis

“I was here 20 years ago and it’s now very different,” Baumgarten says. “The people on the street. What happened?”

In a July 9 podcast, the former Toronto Raptor (Danny Green) called East Hastings the “worst street in North America” in terms of open drug use.

The area has evolved into a homeless paradise due to a "hands off" attitude by the local police and social programs that guarantee lots of food. The weather in Vancouver is also conducive to street living as winters are so mild compared to all other parts of Canada. There are an estimated 300 social programs active in the area. $365 million is about the average amount in social programming spent in the area per year.
The people who wind up there are from all over Canada and already suffering from major issues and that is the problem. There are there because the drugs are easy to score and the living is so easy compared to where they are from. Putting cash in their hands is such a ridiculous idea that my first thought was that you must be joking!

Leland, 60, speaks to the Courier for more than an hour near Main and Cordova streets. He speaks to changes he’s seen in the area, his interactions with tourists and the ever-increasing tension over Oppenheimer Park.
The park is a lightning rod for Leland, and he suggests, few if any, of the campers are longtime Vancouverites. Instead, Leland, Nelson and Pastorcic all insist Vancouver is a destination for homeless people from across Canada.

“Everybody’s got a sh***y end of town. We are the sh***y end of town. Us guys down here, we know it’s a sh***y end of town,” Leland said. “If you’ve got to be poor, East Van is the easiest place to be poor. You get three, four meals a day for nothing. That’s what attracts people to Oppenheimer Park.”
https://www.vancourier.com/news/how-...ted-1.23920263
I take it then that 1) you don't know how much was given to residents and 2) guilt by association for all residents who aren't addicts.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2020, 07:40 AM   #279
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,692
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Is there any evidence this guy was a cop, outside of his claims?
It was on the internet. What more is needed?
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2020, 08:32 AM   #280
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,542
Quote:
The default is social services
I cannot think of much worse than a social worker with the power of arrest.

Do you know how often they are utterly ignorant of the law, how often they break the law -or at least try to- to force people to comply with the things they want them to do?

Also, how would that work, exactly?

"Hello, social services? I'd like to turn in my ex-boyfriend for forgery. He found my blank checks, forged my signature on one and ordered a pizza. Could you send 'round a social worker to talk to him? Maybe you'll could take him to a safe place for a few days?"

"Hello, social services? This is Rusty over at Dent's Garage. Someone just stole an SUV from our parking lot. I know the owner of the vehicle, but not the guy who took it. Maybe you could a send a social worker over to track down the vehicle, talk the thief into pulling over and climbing out of it, then tow it back here?"

"Hello, social services? This is Ronny at the Quickie Mart. Some guy has come in here, filled a backpack with stuff and walked out...then come back and done it again...and again. This is his 5th run today, I think. Maybe, just maybe, could you send a social worker to tell him this is illegal, that he'll have to "admit fault", put the stuff back, attend anti-theft classes, schedule some meetings with a counselor, and sign up for welfare?"



I don't think it would hurt anything if we hired more older people for LE, and tried to choose those who had backgrounds in mental health services.

But social workers? No..... If you've never had to deal with a social worker standing at your door demanding entry, please spend some time researching the things that have gone wrong when they've gotten involved.

Just searching youtube for "social worker at the door" may be a bit eye opening.

I think about 80% of the problems with the police could be fixed by training them to de-escalate problems, to look for peaceful solutions, to stop thinking of putting someone in jail as their prime directive, and better procedures for high stress situations where fear and panic lead to bad judgement. Another 10% would be solved by prosecuting every LEO present when someone is injured or killed. When someone is in personal jeopardy they stop feeling so loyal to their group, and those who count on their co-workers looking the other way won't have that sense of security any more.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:05 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.