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Old 26th June 2020, 07:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think finding out about another continent is a big deal. The world would have been fine if Eurasia and the Americas just did their separate thing.
Imagine making a perilous sea voyage in an outrigger canoe to a new landmass devoid of human beings. Pretty cool.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:32 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Would upset a few white supremacist LARPers.
Please don't call them LARPers. We real LARPers don't want anything to do with them, and we don't want our fun and healthy hobby tainted by association.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:45 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Or much worse, like Cortez.
Meh.

It's not appropriate to judge people of different times by our standards, but if we were to judge them, Cortez was the good guy in the war with the Aztecs.

The Aztecs are my favorite example of a civilization that was at least as bad and possibly worse than the Nazis.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:02 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm hoping we'll get programmable 3D projected holograms, like on Star Trek. Then we could just have a platform that would project different holograms suitable for the day. Xmas trees at Xmas, a giant turkey at Thanksgiving, etc. Seasonal symbols, holiday icons, or just nice works of art or images from nature. Instead of a stupid statue of some boring dead guy from two centuries ago it could project an actual sculpture of real artistic merit, like Michelangelo's David, or classical works.
Every time you post, my hip pocket nerve hurts.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Although realistically what would happen almost immediately is product placement for advertising purposes. Nothing good stays uncorrupted for long.
Maybe we should stick to the boring old statues after all.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:09 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
Who even knows? It was known thousands of years before Columbus that the earth was round, but who would’ve wanted to sail across such a long distance? If no one did what Columbus proposed, the “discovery” of the Americas could have been hundreds of years after the late 1400s. It could even have happened as late as the 20th century. Maybe as late as the first ever shuttle launched into space could have been the first time.
Pretty sure that launching a shuttle requires a lot of experience with aviation, and that it's extremely unlikely that planes wouldn't have circumnavigated the globe prior to any space flight.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:10 AM   #46
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I'll repeat something I said in the other thread devoted to Columbus. I want to live in a place where people look off toward the horizon and ask, "What's on the other side?"

I'm all for keeping the statues.

I do wish the history books would be corrected, although I strongly suspect they already have been. I just haven't taken a history class in quite a long time. History should always be taught accurately. You can't teach American history (accurately) without Columbus, so it should be taught accurately. He was a bad man, reflecting the bad society from which he came. The year he sailed the ocean blue was the same year his patrons threw the Jews out of Spain. He lived in the time of the Spanish Inquisition. Conquest was the order of the day, as the Turks conquered lands in the Balkans, and the "reconquista" was completed on the Iberian peninsula.

Any Eurooean who landed in America would have done the same as Columbus, as Europeans who followed him did. Indeed, those who preceded him did as well. The Norse didn't get along so well with the Skraelings.

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Old 29th June 2020, 12:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Or much worse, like Cortez.
Kind of raises the question of why so many of these people were unsavory characters. Is it just human nature, or something about the job description?
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:16 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Meh.

It's not appropriate to judge people of different times by our standards, but if we were to judge them, Cortez was the good guy in the war with the Aztecs.

The Aztecs are my favorite example of a civilization that was at least as bad and possibly worse than the Nazis.
The only thing preventing them from being classed as "worse" is that they were dealing with much smaller numbers.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:18 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'll repeat something I said in the other thread devoted to Columbus. I want to live in a place where people look off toward the horizon and ask, "What's on the other side?"

I'm all for keeping the statues.

I do wish the history books would be corrected, although I strongly suspect they already have been. I just haven't taken a history class in quite a long time. History should always be taught accurately. You can't teach American history (accurately) without Columbus, so it should be taught accurately. He was a bad man, reflecting the bad society from which he came. The year he sailed the ocean blue was the same year his patrons threw the Jews out of Spain. He lived in the time of the Spanish Inquisition. Conquest was the order of the day, as the Turks conquered lands in the Balkans, and the "reconquista" was completed on the Iberian peninsula.

Any Eurooean who landed in America would have done the same as Columbus, as Europeans who followed him did. Indeed, those who preceded him did as well. The Norse didn't get along so well with the Skraelings.
One of the things history likes to show us is that groups of people rarely get along with each other.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:44 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
Who even knows? It was known thousands of years before Columbus that the earth was round, but who would’ve wanted to sail across such a long distance?
Um, no! They all LAUGHED at Christopher Columbus when he said the Earth was round.

Additionally they all Laughed when Edison recorded sound.

They definitely didn't all laugh - in spite of what Ella sings.

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But what is more important than knowing that the Earth is spherical:

Quote:
The earliest documentation of a spherical Earth comes from the ancient Greeks (5th century BC). Since the 600s AD, scholars have supported that view, and by the Early Middle Ages (700-1500 AD), virtually all scholars maintained the spherical viewpoint.
Myth of the Flat Earth (Wikipedia)

Is knowing its approximate size, and thanks to Eratosthenes of Cyrene they knew that, too.

Quote:
He is best known for being the first person to calculate the circumference of the Earth, which he did by using the extensive survey results he could access in his role at the Library; his calculation was remarkably accurate.
Eratosthenes (Wikipedia)

It was Columbus's lucky break that he happened to stumble upon the Americas/the Caribbeans when he wasn't even half-way to Asia - if America hadn't in the way.
Isn't it likely that America saved him from killing himself and his crew by attempting to cross an ocean that he wouldn't have had enough rations to cross?
I don't think the feat deserves a statue.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The Norse didn't get along so well with the Skraelings.
One of the things history likes to show us is that groups of people rarely get along with each other.

Except for all the cases where groups of people get along marvelously with each other, but those stories don't serve the purpose of legitimizing racism as an inherently human trait. 'We can't help ourselves. It's in our nature.'

Even though the Norse didn't get along so well with skrællingerne in Vinland, they co-existed with the ones in Greenland for centuries.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:02 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Except for all the cases where groups of people get along marvelously with each other, but those stories don't serve the purpose of legitimizing racism as an inherently human trait. 'We can't help ourselves. It's in our nature.'

Even though the Norse didn't get along so well with skrællingerne in Vinland, they co-existed with the ones in Greenland for centuries.
That's a rather uncharitable interpretation. One can just as easily look at it as being important to recognize that human nature makes us prone to having trouble getting along because problems are generally better solved if acknowledged. Recognizing just how prone, or even predisposed, we are to conflict between groups is, I believe, important if such conflicts are to be avoided. Similarly to how very few drug addicts ever recover until they fully acknowledge the depths of their addiction.

We simply can't ignore the fact that conflict IS part of our nature. It's like training a wild animal. Its wildness has to be respected and acknowledged if it is to be tamed. To suppose otherwise has dire consequences.

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Old 29th June 2020, 03:06 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Um, no! They all LAUGHED at Christopher Columbus when he said the Earth was round.
That's a myth. Scholars have known since the greeks found out around 500 BC that the Earth is spherical.

ETA: What dann said.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:26 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Kind of raises the question of why so many of these people were unsavory characters. Is it just human nature, or something about the job description?
Think about why they were exploring. Was it because they were like Jean-Luc Picard, seeking out strange new worlds, to learn and discover and share knowledge?

Hell, no. They were out for wealth. Pure greed. Claim lands for the monarchs, preferably in huge amounts. Find resources, preferably super valuable ones. Spread the social mechanisms of control -- allegiance to this country, loyalty to this government, faith in this religion. The "Age of Exploration" explorers were all about exploitation.

What we, today, would consider the ideals of exploration were not a thing yet.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:08 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Um, no! They all LAUGHED at Christopher Columbus when he said the Earth was round.
Because they knew it was round like a globe and he was saying it was round like a pear.

https://olinuris.library.cornell.edu...pear%2Dshaped.

And he needs to be remembered for proving the world isn't round.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:31 AM   #56
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How long until we change the name " District of COLUMBIA " , and purge the country of all uses of the word " columbia " ?

I don't understand why the SJWs haven't jumped on this yet..
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:40 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How long until we change the name " District of COLUMBIA " , and purge the country of all uses of the word " columbia " ?

I don't understand why the SJWs haven't jumped on this yet..
Come to that, "America" isn't much better. The guy wasn't a conqueror himself, but it's an eponym that's also essentially an exonym, applied by another people in another place to this lump of territory. We could develop our own name for our geography, either adapting an older native name or just inventing a new one.

I suggest calling the pair of continents "Awesomesaucia". That way we could keep the initials as they are, while acknowleding both our independence from old Europe and our inherent awesomnity.
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:26 AM   #58
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Whatever we name it, it mustn't offend anyone.. Particularly the Kardashians.

How about " The United States of Tapioca " ?

And of course we must then have the Tapioca river, and a song; " Oh Tapioca The Gem of The Ocean " ..
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:28 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I don't understand why the SJWs haven't jumped on this yet..
If by SJWs you mean "The House of Representatives", they have. Washington, District of Columbia would be Washington, Douglass Commonwealth if the bill just passed goes anywhere.

Should probably just call the new state Douglass. This two Washingtons thing has always been dumb.
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:37 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Think about why they were exploring. Was it because they were like Jean-Luc Picard, seeking out strange new worlds, to learn and discover and share knowledge?

Hell, no. They were out for wealth. Pure greed. Claim lands for the monarchs, preferably in huge amounts. Find resources, preferably super valuable ones. Spread the social mechanisms of control -- allegiance to this country, loyalty to this government, faith in this religion. The "Age of Exploration" explorers were all about exploitation.

What we, today, would consider the ideals of exploration were not a thing yet.
(emphasis added)

There's the problem right there. Except for a few very small pockets, power in the world at the time was transferred in marriage beds. The only way to wrest power from someone who happened to emerge from the correct womb at the correct time was via war, assassination, or some other means of violence.

The idea that people had a right to self determination either individually or collectively would have been a foreign concept to Columbus or his contemporaries.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:18 AM   #61
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Quote:
The idea that people had a right to self determination either individually or collectively would have been a foreign concept to Columbus or his contemporaries.
Well, since no one had a clue that enslaving native populations and taking all their stuff was wrong, there is no point in blaming them for it..

On that same note, you can be assured, when the founding fathers wrote the declaration of Independance - " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--"

" All men " pretty much meant male, white land owners, and not anyone else..
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Old 29th June 2020, 10:51 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'll repeat something I said in the other thread devoted to Columbus. I want to live in a place where people look off toward the horizon and ask, "What's on the other side?"
What does that have to do with Columbus? He didn't ask "what's on the other side"; he thought he knew.
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Old 29th June 2020, 10:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
What does that have to do with Columbus? He didn't ask "what's on the other side"; he thought he knew.
And he hoped it was either a lot of gold or something that could be sold for a lot of gold. I have a hard time detecting the heroic in that.
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:27 AM   #64
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... after he amassed his fortune and gained the favor of the Queen, he became the star of a reality show called La Apprendista ..
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:34 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And he hoped it was either a lot of gold or something that could be sold for a lot of gold. I have a hard time detecting the heroic in that.
As opposed to the Basque who discovered north america for the fish. And never made a big deal about it.
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:49 AM   #66
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A prime fishing spot *should* be a closely-guarded secret! Just like your favorite mushroom-picking spots.

The one good thing done by "discovering" the Americas was the enlivening of diets worldwide. Imagine the food before peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, maize, etc.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
What does that have to do with Columbus? He didn't ask "what's on the other side"; he thought he knew.
Yeah, boring dude. Never did anything worthwhile. Anyone could have done better.

And yet, no one did. Someone certainly would have if he hadn't, Someone besides Neil Armstrong would have stepped on the moon if he hadn't, but we commemorate Armstrong, because he is the one that actually did it.

And we commemorate Werner Von Braun, because he made it possible, even though Von Braun was a literal Nazi. And someone would have done it even if Von Braun didn't.

And we commemorate Queen Isabella, for making Columbus' journey possible.


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(Same song I posted once before.)

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Old 29th June 2020, 01:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, boring dude. Never did anything worthwhile. Anyone could have done better.

And yet, no one did. Someone certainly would have if he hadn't, Someone besides Neil Armstrong would have stepped on the moon if he hadn't, but we commemorate Armstrong, because he is the one that actually did it.

And we commemorate Werner Von Braun, because he made it possible, even though Von Braun was a literal Nazi. And someone would have done it even if Von Braun didn't.

And we commemorate Queen Isabella, for making Columbus' journey possible.


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(Same song I posted once before.)

And of course for proving that the world isn't round but pear shaped.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, boring dude. Never did anything worthwhile. Anyone could have done better.

And yet, no one did. Someone certainly would have if he hadn't, Someone besides Neil Armstrong would have stepped on the moon if he hadn't, but we commemorate Armstrong, because he is the one that actually did it.

And we commemorate Werner Von Braun, because he made it possible, even though Von Braun was a literal Nazi. And someone would have done it even if Von Braun didn't.
.....

And we commemorate Queen Isabella, for making Columbus' journey possible.
I'm sure if she hadn't done it, someone else would have.


I seemed to have missed the naming of landmarks and the establishment of holidays in honor of Armstrong and VonBraun..

I'm good on Isabella. She forced Columbus to free 1200 slaves he had rounded up
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:06 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I'm sure if she hadn't done it, someone else would have.


I seemed to have missed the naming of landmarks and the establishment of holidays in honor of Armstrong and VonBraun..

I'm good on Isabella. She forced Columbus to free 1200 slaves he had rounded up
I'll be glad to sign the petition making July 20 a holiday. Americans work too many days as it is.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:48 PM   #71
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Not lately..
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:45 PM   #72
pgwenthold
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Would we celebrate Neil Armstrong as much if, when he got to the moon, someone was already there?

Crap, Columbus wasn't even the first European to NA. So what are we commemorating again? Oh right, the first proper white guy to make the journey....
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:11 PM   #73
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Would we celebrate Neil Armstrong as much if, when he got to the moon, someone was already there?

Crap, Columbus wasn't even the first European to NA. So what are we commemorating again? Oh right, the first proper white guy to make the journey....
Proper white guy? The Scandinavians are proper white guys. The Italians are just barely white.

ETA: There's a statue in Philadelphia of the guy who led the settlement at Lanse Aux Meadows. I think that's just fine. But I can't remember his name. It isn't Leif Erikson, which is who I always thought it was.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 29th June 2020 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:13 AM   #74
dann
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
That's a rather uncharitable interpretation. One can just as easily look at it as being important to recognize that human nature makes us prone to having trouble getting along because problems are generally better solved if acknowledged. Recognizing just how prone, or even predisposed, we are to conflict between groups is, I believe, important if such conflicts are to be avoided. Similarly to how very few drug addicts ever recover until they fully acknowledge the depths of their addiction.

You are still wrong, but you probably don't even remember what I obejcted to. Your claim was that:
Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
One of the things history likes to show us is that groups of people rarely get along with each other.
I think you need to let history show you how prone people are to getting along just fine. And how, when they don't, it has nothing at all to do with predispositions and everything to do with financial interests - as do a lot of in-group conflicts.

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We simply can't ignore the fact that conflict IS part of our nature. It's like training a wild animal. Its wildness has to be respected and acknowledged if it is to be tamed. To suppose otherwise has dire consequences.

The only one who is ignoring facts is you. And the reason why you ignore facts isn't human nature. It's your interest in presenting human creatures as slaves of their nature.

By the way, most people are able to distinguish between wild animals and people. That you aren't is unfortunate, but it still doesn't mean that it's your nature doing the talking or that you are predisposed to thinking the way you do.

Your thinking is not predisposed, and if you took an actual interest in learning from history, it would tell you something that you probably wouldn't want to hear.
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Last edited by dann; 30th June 2020 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #75
dann
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Proper white guy? The Scandinavians are proper white guys.

Well, some of us are. I could show you some real ********! And some of us are black and brown. And a little more than half of us aren't even guys.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:24 AM   #76
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Proper white guy? The Scandinavians are proper white guys. The Italians are just barely white.

ETA: There's a statue in Philadelphia of the guy who led the settlement at Lanse Aux Meadows. I think that's just fine. But I can't remember his name. It isn't Leif Erikson, which is who I always thought it was.
Thorfinn Karlsefui.

But someone beat you to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng3UeyT0MfU
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:57 AM   #77
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Thorfinn Karlsefui.

But someone beat you to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng3UeyT0MfU


(Did they put it back up? I wonder where the statue is now.)
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:59 AM   #78
mumblethrax
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(Did they put it back up? I wonder where the statue is now.)
They took it to a farm upstate.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:30 AM   #79
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How long until we change the name " District of COLUMBIA " , and purge the country of all uses of the word " columbia " ?

I don't understand why the SJWs haven't jumped on this yet..
It's easy to switch it to "District of America". Your only problem then is to remember the new name and only use it. And you also have to remember that it is no longer DC - because now it's DOA.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:38 AM   #80
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And he hoped it was either a lot of gold or something that could be sold for a lot of gold. I have a hard time detecting the heroic in that.
What is not heroic about a homey who brings home the bling?
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