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Tags Washington DC issues , Washington DC politics

View Poll Results: Should DC get Statehood?
Yes. 60 84.51%
No. 11 15.49%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th June 2020, 08:19 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
DC should never become a state. We donít need to give the federal government even more incentive to increase its own size.
How about this as a compromise? DC becomes a State basically in name only. But it is awarded Senate and Congressional representation.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:25 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is that really the most salient determining factor.
My SO and I wish to be our own State. We require a member in the House, and Two in the Senate.
It is what we want, so should be the determining factor,no?
How about that 700,000 live there and it those people don't have Congressmen and Senators representing them? The Revolutionary War was fought because the colonies were deprived of representation in Parliament. So why is the same argument not good enough for DC?
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:39 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How about that 700,000 live there and it those people don't have Congressmen and Senators representing them? The Revolutionary War was fought because the colonies were deprived of representation in Parliament. So why is the same argument not good enough for DC?
That is an injustice that can be solved by re-attaching DC to an existing State. That is what should be done.
Creating a separate State for every population that wants to have two Senators just throws an already flawed system further out of wack.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:42 AM   #44
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Again get rid of one of the Dakota's. We don't need two. Give their political power to DC. Problem solved. All the numbers stay the same.

Unless "the system being out of wack" isn't really the problem you have with it. (Spoiler alert, it isn't.)
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How about this as a compromise? DC becomes a State basically in name only. But it is awarded Senate and Congressional representation.
Why would anyone think that addresses my objection?
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:49 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would anyone think that addresses my objection?
Because we all know you're fair minded and have principles.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:52 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would anyone think that addresses my objection?
You don't have an objection. You have an excuse. Therefore it doesn't have to be addressed because when you address an excuse, all you get is another excuse.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:54 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is an injustice that can be solved by re-attaching DC to an existing State. That is what should be done.
Creating a separate State for every population that wants to have two Senators just throws an already flawed system further out of wack.
So what you really object to is to these people getting two Senators. That Wyoming and North Dakota both with smaller populations should get 4 Senators but not the 700,000 DC citizens.

The great compromise of the Constitutional Convention is clearly absurd.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:01 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So what you really object to is to these people getting two Senators. That Wyoming and North Dakota both with smaller populations should get 4 Senators but not the 700,000 DC citizens.

The great compromise of the Constitutional Convention is clearly absurd.
What is your argument?
The system is flawed- let's make it more so?

How many States have a population that is greater than 700,000?
Every resident of those States experiences a further reduction in their relative representation with the addition of another tiny "State"

"So",you think it's a good idea to disenfranchise people that (on balance) might disagree with you politically.
(Ooooh, I like playing this "So- I know what you think even if it's not what you said" game)
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What is your argument?
The system is flawed- let's make it more so?
The system is not made more flawed by admitting DC as a state. It's identical, since admitting DC as a state does not address the system in any way.

The demographic skew in the Senate is generally ameliorated by admitting DC as a state. However you slice it (urban/rural, black/white, Christian/non-Christian), DC as a state would improve representation for people who are currently underrepresented in Congress.

And of course statehood resolves the very obvious flaw that US citizens in DC have no congressional representation.

I strongly suspect you are looking for a high political rationale for your low political instincts. You shouldn't do this.

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Old 28th June 2020, 09:15 AM   #51
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Making DC its own state would actually reduce the involvement of the federal government. Right now its local affairs are managed by the House, requiring literal acts of congress to conduct day to day business.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:20 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What is your argument?
The system is flawed- let's make it more so?
Doesn't make it more flawed.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How many States have a population that is greater than 700,000?
Every resident of those States experiences a further reduction in their relative representation with the addition of another tiny "State"

"So",you think it's a good idea to disenfranchise people that (on balance) might disagree with you politically.
(Ooooh, I like playing this "So- I know what you think even if it's not what you said" game)
48 States have populations over 700,000. It is not disenfranchising people any more than giving Senators to North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho and Alaska.

The unfairness of the system is the Senate. It should be abolished or have its role in governing reduced considerably. Power shouldn't be apportioned to empty land and cattle.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Doesn't make it more flawed.



48 States have populations over 700,000. It is not disenfranchising people any more than giving Senators to North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho and Alaska.

The unfairness of the system is the Senate. It should be abolished or have its role in governing reduced considerably. Power shouldn't be apportioned to empty land and cattle.
Then argue that the sparsely populated States should be combined.
Argue that the Senate should be re-constituted along lines that reduce the outsized representation that some Americans enjoy.

Instead, you would prefer that the residents of 48 States should experience further degradation of their power in the Senate relative to their population seemingly because it gives temporary advantage to one political party.

It is difficult to maintain that the Senate is unfairly constituted (which it is) then argue that it should be more so.

The Residents of DC should definitely have representation in Congress, not by creating a city/State however.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It is difficult to maintain that the Senate is unfairly constituted (which it is) then argue that it should be more so.
Nobody is arguing that it should be "more so". And it wouldn't be. It would be identically constituted--two senators per state.

But even if we were to grant this point, the obvious rejoinder is that this problem is not serious enough to deny congressional representation to 700,000 people. The balance of interests favors statehood (or incorporation into another state, if that's what DC wants).
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:35 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How about this as a compromise? DC becomes a State basically in name only. But it is awarded Senate and Congressional representation.
What could that even mean? It's either a state or it's not.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:39 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Then argue that the sparsely populated States should be combined.
Argue that the Senate should be re-constituted along lines that reduce the outsized representation that some Americans enjoy.

Instead, you would prefer that the residents of 48 States should experience further degradation of their power in the Senate relative to their population.

It is difficult to maintain that the Senate is unfairly constituted (which it is) then argue that it should be more so.
The problem of course with your argument is that it cannot be done. And you know it. Giving statehood to DC and Puerto Rico can be done.

It's easier to give power than take it away. Legislatively with the constraints of the system it cannot be done. This is where the founders failed. They made it way too hard to change the Constitution. SD, ND, MT, WY, NE, AK, VT, RI are never going to vote for changes that would drastically reduce their power.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:41 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What could that even mean? It's either a state or it's not.
The point is to give DC representation in the Senate and the House.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:41 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem of course with your argument is that it cannot be done. And you know it. Giving statehood to DC and Puerto Rico can be done.

It's easier to give power than take it away. Legislatively with the constraints of the system it cannot be done. This is where the founders failed. They made it way too hard to change the Constitution. SD, ND, MT, WY, NE, AK, VT, RI are never going to vote for changes that would drastically reduce their power.
Returning DC to Maryland could likely be done more easily than making a "cityState" out of it.

Puerto Rico should definitely be a State.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Returning DC to Maryland could likely be done more easily than making a "cityState" out of it.
Why? Unless I'm mistaken, it requires no more or less votes.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Making DC its own state would actually reduce the involvement of the federal government. Right now its local affairs are managed by the House, requiring literal acts of congress to conduct day to day business.
That's not quite true. The Congress retains veto power over the D.C. government, but they rarely exercise it. The D.C. mayor and city council operate like any other state or city government most of the time. The Congress doesn't run the police department or the DMV.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:50 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why? Unless I'm mistaken, it requires no more or less votes.
Could be done through the judiciary by annexation. No approval needed from Wyoming.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:52 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Returning DC to Maryland could likely be done more easily than making a "cityState" out of it.
That's not at all obvious. Congress has the constitutional power to "admit new states", grafting DC onto an adjoining state is a different question. At the very least, that state's legislature would presumably have to be involved.

Informally, Congress is unlikely to exercise that power in the 21st century without popular approval--the first step towards Puerto Rican statehood was Puerto Ricans expressing approval of the idea. If DC doesn't want to be part of another state, then this is unlikely to happen.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:55 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Could be done through the judiciary by annexation. No approval needed from Wyoming.
Nope. Congress has authority over DC.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:56 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
That's not at all obvious. Congress has the constitutional power to "admit new states", grafting DC onto an adjoining state is a different question. At the very least, that state's legislature would presumably have to be involved.

Informally, Congress is unlikely to exercise that power in the 21st century without popular approval--the first step towards Puerto Rican statehood was Puerto Ricans expressing approval of the idea. If DC doesn't want to be part of another state, then this is unlikely to happen.
I think any option would require the approval of the population of DC.

With that as an option, however, what do you think would be the arguments for rejecting it in favor of becoming a cityState ?
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:58 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think any option would require the approval of the population of DC.
Right. So if the residents of DC approve of statehood but not incorporation into Maryland (for example), you would then support statehood?
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:58 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
That's not at all obvious. Congress has the constitutional power to "admit new states", grafting DC onto an adjoining state is a different question. At the very least, that state's legislature would presumably have to be involved.
....
There is the practical historical precedent that the land Virginia donated to the capital was returned to Virginia. Retrocession would do the same with the land donated by Maryland. It's not like "grafting" it onto another state.

Realistically, even if D.C. wanted to do this, Maryland has mostly opposed the idea. It's hard to understand why, since Maryland would acquire some of the most valuable real estate in the country and expand its tax base. But it would be a stumbling block.

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Old 28th June 2020, 10:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Right. So if the residents of DC approve of statehood but not incorporation into Maryland (for example), you would then support statehood?
No.
I would not support Statehood for DC, or for -(pick your favorite "Republican" city since you seem to believe that is my motivation in spite of all).

Another method for providing representation to the citizens of that city would need to be found.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You don't have an objection. You have an excuse. Therefore it doesn't have to be addressed because when you address an excuse, all you get is another excuse.
No, that is an objection. You may not agree with the objection, you may think my objection is wrong, but you don't get to simply declare someone is arguing in bad faith. That is itself a bad-faith argument on your part.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:11 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
No.
I would not support Statehood for DC, or for -(pick your favorite "Republican" city since you seem to believe that is my motivation in spite of all).
What "Republican city" (of reasonable size) has been in the situation where its citizens have not been properly represented in the legislature for decades?
Quote:
Another method for providing representation to the citizens of that city would need to be found.
Will it involve citizens getting full representation in Congress by giving them senators even if they aren't officially a "state"?

In my opinion Washington should actually be given twice the number of Congress critters for the next century to make up for the lack of representation in the past.



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Old 28th June 2020, 10:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Could be done through the judiciary by annexation. No approval needed from Wyoming.
D.C. is the national capital established by the Constitution. Any changes in its status would require Congressional approval, and some changes would require a Constitutional amendment.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:19 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There is the practical historical precedent that the land Virginia donated to the capital was returned to Virginia. Retrocession would do the same with the land donated by Maryland. It's not like "grafting" it onto another state.
Well, it is if it happens without state approval, which Virginia provided. The point is that Congress formally has the unilateral power to admit new states, but not to force a state to accept territory. So the argument that it's "easier" is simply not true, at least not as a political question.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:22 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Well, it is if it happens without state approval, which Virginia provided. The point is that Congress formally has the unilateral power to admit new states, but not to force a state to accept territory. So the argument that it's "easier" is simply not true, at least not as a political question.
That presupposes that Maryland would need to be "forced".
A possibility, but by no means a certainty.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:24 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
D.C. is the national capital established by the Constitution. Any changes in its status would require Congressional approval, and some changes would require a Constitutional amendment.
Is the proposition that DC would cease to be the Capitol?
I don't see that as a necessity. No matter how its citizens are ultimately represented.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:30 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
No.
I would not support Statehood for DC, or for -(pick your favorite "Republican" city since you seem to believe that is my motivation in spite of all).
"Republican" city? You might as well talk about unicorns. But as others have already pointed out, there are no Republican cities that are currently deprived of congressional representation.

Quote:
Another method for providing representation to the citizens of that city would need to be found.
I doubt it, you'll just be outvoted.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:32 AM   #75
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This is the Republican way. They don't believe in democracy if it means giving poor and minorities legislative power, they're against it.

One only needs to look at the shenanigans in Georgia, Texas and Florida to understand how far the GOP will go. It's not surprising that oppose Statehood for DC.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:32 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That presupposes that Maryland would need to be "forced".
A possibility, but by no means a certainty.
No, it presupposed that Maryland would need to be asked, which makes the process more complicated, not easier.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:36 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
"Republican" city? You might as well talk about unicorns. But as others have already pointed out, there are no Republican cities that are currently deprived of congressional representation.


I doubt it, you'll just be outvoted.
Clearly it needs to be stated more simply.
I would not support Statehood for a city- Regardless of the political benefits to one party or another.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:37 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Clearly it needs to be stated more simply.
I would not support Statehood for a city- Regardless of the political benefits to one party or another.
How wonderful it is to have principles that can never be tested.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:38 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
How wonderful it is to have principles that can never be tested.
Perhaps as wonderful as having ones that only apply to someone else.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:42 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Perhaps as wonderful as having ones that only apply to someone else.
Sorry, I don't know what this means.

Anyway, I think it's already been discussed by this "cities should not be states" stance is as nonsensical as "islands should not be states"--there's simply no principled reason for it.
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