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Tags Washington DC issues , Washington DC politics

View Poll Results: Should DC get Statehood?
Yes. 60 84.51%
No. 11 15.49%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th June 2020, 10:45 AM   #81
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is the proposition that DC would cease to be the Capitol?
I don't see that as a necessity. No matter how its citizens are ultimately represented.
Most proposals for statehood or retrocession include carving out a federal enclave of monumental Washington, including the White House, the Capitol, etc., that would remain the national capital. The original idea was that the national capital shouldn't be subject to any state's authority. A complication is that the Constitution provides three electoral votes for the District. Who would elect them? Nobody would actually live within the federal enclave. Even the President and his family are residents of the state they came from. If D.C. was restructured or reconfigured, the 23rd amendment would need to be repealed or modified.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:49 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Sorry, I don't know what this means.

Anyway, I think it's already been discussed by this "cities should not be states" stance is as nonsensical as "islands should not be states"--there's simply no principled reason for it.
Or neighborhoods, Streets, Houses, And apartments.

Since there is no principled lower limit, why not my SO and myself? What is the principled rationale for keeping us from being a State?
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:49 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Clearly it needs to be stated more simply.
I would not support Statehood for a city- Regardless of the political benefits to one party or another.
Sure.


Why not? What difference does it make? States clearly come in all sizes and shapes. Rhode Island covers an area 450 times smaller than Alaska yet has double the population.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:51 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Realistically, even if D.C. wanted to do this, Maryland has mostly opposed the idea. It's hard to understand why, since Maryland would acquire some of the most valuable real estate in the country and expand its tax base. But it would be a stumbling block.
Maryland does not want to take DC, and DC does not want to be apart of Maryland, so either it should happen or nothing should happen because we absolutely cannot allow unrepresented urbanites two new senators.

It does not matter how "absurd" DC statehood sounds to people with no imagination, it's never going to be more absurd than Wyoming having the same number of senators as California.

As noted above, the Great Compromise screwed this country for generations, and the charge at the convention was led by our teeny-tiny mid-Atlantic states (now reliably Democratic). This discussion again highlights the obscene pathologies of the U.S. Senate., which I now think can only realistically be mitigated with urban secession. DC is the 20th biggest city in the country. If it achieves statehood, then we should push for all cities more populous than it to become enclave city-states. Naturally, it would be ridiculous for NYC to have the same number of senators as Jacksonville, but, again, it's no more absurd than Texas having the same number of senators as Vermont.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:55 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Or neighborhoods, Streets, Houses, And apartments.

Since there is no principled lower limit, why not my SO and myself? What is the principled rationale for keeping us from being a State?
What is the principled rationale for ANY STATE? Clearly, this is all arbitrary.

Should be noted that in all three West Coast States are movements to split off rural areas and make them into different states.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:56 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Or neighborhoods, Streets, Houses, And apartments.

Since there is no principled lower limit, why not my SO and myself? What is the principled rationale for keeping us from being a State?
There isn't one. There's no principled reason for states to exist at all.

There being no principled argument against does not imply a principled argument in favor.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:08 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There isn't one. There's no principled reason for states to exist at all.

There being no principled argument against does not imply a principled argument in favor.
There isn't. They may have made sense 200 years ago but they have outlived their purpose. I made a since retired thread recommending that we eliminate the States entirely. They divide us and are a inefficient duplication of resources.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:18 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There isn't. They may have made sense 200 years ago but they have outlived their purpose. I made a since retired thread recommending that we eliminate the States entirely. They divide us and are a inefficient duplication of resources.
Undoubtedly.
So why are you so keen to make another one when other options to achieve the same result are available?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:18 AM   #89
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The question of fairness of how the Senate is filled seems separate from the question of DC's status. DC is not to blame for the Senate's makeup for the last two centuries. DC was created as a damn-fool "special exception" to the normal situation for every other bit of the country, and it ought to be brought into line with everywhere else. Fairness means treating everyone the same, not treating everyone perfectly. If two senators is good enough for everywhere else then it's good enough for DC.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:20 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The question of fairness of how the Senate is filled seems separate from the question of DC's status. DC is not to blame for the Senate's makeup for the last two centuries. DC was created as a damn-fool "special exception" to the normal situation for every other bit of the country, and it ought to be brought into line with everywhere else. Fairness means treating everyone the same, not treating everyone perfectly. If two senators is good enough for everywhere else then it's good enough for DC.
Everywhere else States are composed of more than a single municipality and nothing else.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:30 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Everywhere else States are composed of more than a single municipality and nothing else.
If Providence were to grow into a megalopolis covering the whole territory of RI would RI cease to be a state, and Providence have to join a neighboring state because you don't think a single municipality should be a state?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Everywhere else States are composed of more than a single municipality and nothing else.
That just seems like a massively arbitrary "I gotta find something" reason. Like an... oh what's that word... recuse... no... execute... no that's not it either.

Wyoming has 578,759 people living it. Washington DC has 705,749. Why should Wyoming's voice be louder because it's people are more spread out?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:36 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Undoubtedly.
So why are you so keen to make another one when other options to achieve the same result are available?
I'm not. I do however believe the people are entitled to representation in both the House and the Senate. Especially since the Senate can veto over 500 pieces of legislation passed by the much more democratically elected House.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:43 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If Providence were to grow into a megalopolis covering the whole territory of RI would RI cease to be a state, and Providence have to join a neighboring state because you don't think a single municipality should be a state?
Interesting hypothetical.
I will think about it.

Conversely, if the population were to shrink to a single individual, would it still be a State?
What if the population were 0 ?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:47 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not. I do however believe the people are entitled to representation in both the House and the Senate. Especially since the Senate can veto over 500 pieces of legislation passed by the much more democratically elected House.
Of course they should.
Their voice in that assembly should not be greater than mine of yours, however.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:50 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Undoubtedly.
So why are you so keen to make another one when other options to achieve the same result are available?
Because the other options aren't practical.

If neither Maryland nor DC want retrocession, as seems to be the case, that option is effectively off the table.

Granting DC representation without statehood would require an amendment, and "would require an amendment" is American for "that's not going to happen." We might be able to imagine this succeeding in less polarized times, had it not failed in less polarized times.

So we're left with statehood. That would at a minimum require a referendum (which has already happened, although there might be one or two more before all is said and done) and congressional approval, which are both easy to pull off.

Basically, there are no other practicable alternatives to solving the representation problem. And it's not a coincidence that it's came to the fore in this moment--The State of Columbia would be the only (not quite) majority black state in the union. I see this as a good thing--demographic representation is a desirable feature in a democracy.

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Old 28th June 2020, 11:52 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If Providence were to grow into a megalopolis covering the whole territory of RI would RI cease to be a state, and Providence have to join a neighboring state because you don't think a single municipality should be a state?
And honestly with the way urbanization is growing in certain areas that's not all that crazy of an idea.

The idea of "City-States" arising in America isn't likely, but it isn't crazy.

And to add even another wrinkles, some of these big metro areas cross state lines and they very well might start to take on identities, and with it priorities, of their own.

But none of this has anything to do with why 500,000 people spread out deserve representation and why 750,000 in a city don't because of vague categorization hair splitting or why a Senator from California who represents tens of millions of people and one from Wyoming who represents three people and a buffalo both have the same political power.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:59 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Basically, there are no other practicable alternatives to solving the representation problem. And it's not a coincidence that it's come to the fore in this moment--The State of Columbia would be the only (not quite) majority black state in the union. I see this as a good thing--demographic representation is a desirable feature in a democracy.
Oh I'm sure it's a total coincidence. And the fact that Puerto Rico is full of Spanish Speaking Brown people. And the prison system (with 7.1 million people, which would make it the 12th largest state) is also largely black and the US Felon Population is even bigger and the Republicans dig their heels in and fight every discussion of giving any of those groups usable political power is a coincidence.

IT'S ALL A TOTAL COINCIDENCE!
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:07 PM   #99
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The Republican legislators whine that making DC a state would somehow give the Democrats an unfair majority.

Need I spell out the hypocrisy there?


Re Puerto Rico, I don't know the current sentiment but in the past there has been a desire by a fair number of the island's citizens to move for sovereignty rather than statehood. That would need to change if it hasn't already.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:09 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interesting hypothetical.
I will think about it.

Conversely, if the population were to shrink to a single individual, would it still be a State?
What if the population were 0 ?
No, that would be a Free Man On The Land.

The Null Hypothesis, the last refuge of the scoundrel.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I'm sure it's a total coincidence. And the fact that Puerto Rico is full of Spanish Speaking Brown people. And the prison system (with 7.1 million people, which would make it the 12th largest state) is also largely black and the US Felon Population is even bigger and the Republicans dig their heels in and fight every discussion of giving any of those groups usable political power is a coincidence.

IT'S ALL A TOTAL COINCIDENCE!
Yeah, I certainly take a dim view of the GOP on this question.

But Distracted1 says he (?) supports statehood for Puerto Rico, so I hope to convince him that a state having an unusual basket of interests is not a bad thing. It increases the diversity of representation.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Re Puerto Rico, I don't know the current sentiment but in the past there has been a desire by a fair number of the island's citizens to move for sovereignty rather than statehood. That would need to change if it hasn't already.
The one thing I agree with Distracted1 is giving PR a "Okay whatever choice you make fine, but **** or get off the pot" time frame.

I'd support a "By 2030 you're either gonna be a state or your own country, either one" kind of thing.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:23 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The Republican legislators whine that making DC a state would somehow give the Democrats an unfair majority.


Need I spell out the hypocrisy there?
Is that what they call that?

For the last 230 years there has been a deliberate machiavellian agenda to restrict power in the hands of rich white men. From the birth of this nation and the so called great compromise, it has been one cynical ploy after another. Land owner voting only, Slavery, the great compromise, men only, no felon voting, literacy tests, poll taxes, voter suppression, voter ID laws, anti mail in balloting, selective polling places.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:30 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Is that what they call that?

For the last 230 years there has been a deliberate machiavellian agenda to restrict power in the hands of rich white men. From the birth of this nation and the so called great compromise, it has been one cynical ploy after another. Land owner voting only, Slavery, the great compromise, men only, no felon voting, literacy tests, poll taxes, voter suppression, voter ID laws, anti mail in balloting, selective polling places.
Putting a hole in the other side of the ship might make it more even seeming for a while, but ultimately does nothing good for the passengers.
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:41 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Putting a hole in the other side of the ship might make it more even seeming for a while, but ultimately does nothing good for the passengers.
What you're actually arguing is that it is somehow more just that rich white men have more power than everyone else. That only makes sense if you're white and wealthy.

That all these actions are justified?
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Old 28th June 2020, 12:59 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What you're actually arguing is that it is somehow more just that rich white men have more power than everyone else. That only makes sense if you're white and wealthy.

That all these actions are justified?
What I am arguing is that fixing the problems you pointed out is not accomplished by contributing to them in kind.

If your argument is that principles don't matter- and a different group should be unjustly promoting their interests in the same manner, I decline to be persuaded.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:38 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What I am arguing is that fixing the problems you pointed out is not accomplished by contributing to them in kind.
But in what sense does DC statehood "contribute in kind"? What is the "other side of the boat" in your analogy?

It can't be "small states are overrepresented", because that's the same side of the boat.

By any other measure (urban vs. rural, majority white vs. majority minority, political affiliation), DC statehood improves the malapportionment in the Senate. So how can you say it makes things worse?
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:41 PM   #108
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Because he's not worried about an uneven system. He's worried about a system that doesn't work in his favor. That's why none of his arguments make sense.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:45 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
But in what sense does DC statehood "contribute in kind"? What is the "other side of the boat" in your analogy?

It can't be "small states are overrepresented", because that's the same side of the boat.

By any other measure (urban vs. rural, majority white vs. majority minority, political affiliation), DC statehood improves the malapportionment in the Senate. So how can you say it makes things worse?
my primary objection to DC Statehood is that a municipality is not a State.

The arguments I am responding to are that there are other States in the union with lopsided representation in the Senate- therefore we need to create yet another one to somehow "balance out" injustice for injustice in order to obtain some short term political advantage.

The residents of DC can get Senatorial representation through other means. Means that make more sense than having the same geographic area encompass a single city, county, and State.

More simply. Alaska, Wyomine et al.. make a mockery of Democracy- fixing that by creating another Wyoming is not valid.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:51 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What I am arguing is that fixing the problems you pointed out is not accomplished by contributing to them in kind.
It isn't remotely the same.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If your argument is that principles don't matter- and a different group should be unjustly promoting their interests in the same manner, I decline to be persuaded.
No, you're argument is that principles don't matter. I believe in fair representation. And giving the citizens of DC two Senators doesn't come close to evening out the unbalance of the over-representation of Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska, Nebraska, Oklahoma and the Dakotas.

The real divide in this country is between urban and rural. Rural citizens have considerably more power. That is inherently unfair.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because he's not worried about an uneven system. He's worried about a system that doesn't work in his favor. That's why none of his arguments make sense.
You are the absolute worst psychic I have ever encountered.
Madame Cleo would be ashamed.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:54 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It isn't remotely the same.



No, you're argument is that principles don't matter. I believe in fair representation. And giving the citizens of DC two Senators doesn't come close to evening out the unbalance of the over-representation of Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska, Nebraska, Oklahoma and the Dakotas.

The real divide in this country is between urban and rural. Rural citizens have considerably more power. That is inherently unfair.
How does giving DC Statehood "even out the imbalance"?
It "evens out" a partisan imbalance, but makes the overall situation more unjust.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:58 PM   #113
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It isn't remotely the same.



No, you're argument is that principles don't matter. I believe in fair representation. And giving the citizens of DC two Senators doesn't come close to evening out the unbalance of the over-representation of Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska, Nebraska, Oklahoma and the Dakotas.

The real divide in this country is between urban and rural. Rural citizens have considerably more power. That is inherently unfair.
Why is it unfair that rural citizens have more political power?
Is it because we don't like the way rural citizens use that power?
Or because the system has a flaw the gives some voices more weight than others?

If the latter, creating yet another group of citizens with outsized political power is not a fix. It is trying to correct injustice with injustice.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:59 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Undoubtedly.
So why are you so keen to make another one when other options to achieve the same result are available?
Probably because intelligent people are able to accept that two (or more) contradictory ideas can both (or all) be good depending on things like context and differing levels of practicality. Some of us reach for something a little higher than simplistic yes/no binaries.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:02 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
my primary objection to DC Statehood is that a municipality is not a State.
You're right. But it could be. You do get that this is arbitrary, don't you?

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The arguments I am responding to are that there are other States in the union with lopsided representation in the Senate- therefore we need to create yet another one to somehow "balance out" injustice for injustice in order to obtain some short term political advantage.

The residents of DC can get Senatorial representation through other means. Means that make more sense than having the same geographic area encompass a single city, county, and State.

More simply. Alaska, Wyomine et al.. make a mockery of Democracy- fixing that by creating another Wyoming is not valid.
The mockery is the unfair representation that rural voters have over urban voters. The mockery is the idea that this is a democratic system.

Be honest. What you really don't like is 700,000 people of color in DC having the same political power as 560,000 white people in Wyoming.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:09 PM   #116
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're right. But it could be. You do get that this is arbitrary, don't you?



The mockery is the unfair representation that rural voters have over urban voters. The mockery is the idea that this is a democratic system.

Be honest. What you really don't like is 700,000 people of color in DC having the same political power as 560,000 white people in Wyoming.
Oh my, you have the same psychic ability that JoeMorgue has demonstrated.

BTW, speaking of "Binary" DC residents are only 47% black. And although Wyoming consists of a predominately white population, there are a substantive number of residents "of color"
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:10 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Probably because intelligent people are able to accept that two (or more) contradictory ideas can both (or all) be good depending on things like context and differing levels of practicality. Some of us reach for something a little higher than simplistic yes/no binaries.
My bad, I guess. I did not notice the option other than "yes" or "no" in the OP

Perhaps you could link to it?
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:11 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The arguments I am responding to are that there are other States in the union with lopsided representation in the Senate- therefore we need to create yet another one to somehow "balance out" injustice for injustice.
The fact that DC statehood would ameliorate some of the demographic injustice is incidental, the primary injustice addressed being total lack of representation for 700,000 people. But it's hard to see as a bad thing. Why isn't this something that can be at least marginally improved by "balancing out" the demographic composition of states?
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:16 PM   #119
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Because there are options for doing it that don't involve perpetuating something that is wrong in the first place.

Get creative. You wish to have PR brought into the Union (me too) make DC a part of the State Puerto Rico.
Hell, make DC part of Wyoming! Or Maine.
Geographically silly- but at least they don't move us further from "one man one vote"
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:17 PM   #120
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Why is it unfair that rural citizens have more political power?
Is it because we don't like the way rural citizens use that power?
Or because the system has a flaw the gives some voices more weight than others?

If the latter, creating yet another group of citizens with outsized political power is not a fix. It is trying to correct injustice with injustice.
Because I believe in the principle of one man, one vote.

Also, rural Americans lack diversity and are less tolerant. Are less inclined to be well educated. More likey to hold superstitious beliefs and think they have a right to enforce their superstitions on others.

No one is trying to correct injustice with injustice. But that is what is necessary since no one from the right is remotely interested in fixing any injustice suffered by anyone from urban areas.

I believe Mitch McConnell was against helping hard hit COVID states earlier. He called it a blue state bailout.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 28th June 2020 at 02:20 PM.
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