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Tags Washington DC issues , Washington DC politics

View Poll Results: Should DC get Statehood?
Yes. 61 84.72%
No. 11 15.28%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th June 2020, 02:20 PM   #121
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Oh my, you have the same psychic ability that JoeMorgue has demonstrated.

BTW, speaking of "Binary" DC residents are only 47% black. And although Wyoming consists of a predominately white population, there are a substantive number of residents "of color"
You're right. And I knew that.

But let's be honest. Any way you look at DC, tat's way too many for you.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:23 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're right. And I knew that.

But let's be honest. Any way you look at DC, tat's way too many for you.
Doesn't have much to do with this thread, but thank you for giving me something to link to when I am in other threads discussing how so many posters on this forum when they are making no headway with a flawed argument just yell "racism" and go home.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:36 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Because there are options for doing it that don't involve perpetuating something that is wrong in the first place.
Nothing is being "perpetuated" with DC statehood, to any greater degree than it is with Puerto Rican statehood.

Quote:
Get creative. You wish to have PR brought into the Union (me too) make DC a part of the State Puerto Rico.
Why? We have a perfectly good solution that doesn't require Frankenstates separated by thousands of miles, and all the logistical challenges that would present. And it's baffling that you object to statehood on the uncreative assertion that "cities aren't states" but think DC Rico is worth considering.

Quote:
Hell, make DC part of Wyoming! Or Maine.
Geographically silly- but at least they don't move us further from "one man one vote"
DC statehood does not move us further from one man one vote--that's simply not an organizing principle of the US Senate at all. Faulting DC statehood for not addressing something it cannot address is...odd.

This argument could just as easily be brought to bear against Puerto Rican statehood (which you support). Puerto Rico would have the same number of senators as Wyoming, despite having over five times the population. It's foolish to count that as a mark against Puerto Rican statehood, or to consider it a perpetuation of an unjust system--it's a flaw in the design of the Senate, not in the design of the proposal before us.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:37 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interesting hypothetical.
I will think about it.

Conversely, if the population were to shrink to a single individual, would it still be a State?
What if the population were 0 ?
I think the population of a state has to be at least three people, or else they couldn't field the two senators and one representative they're entitled to. Can a state choose not to fill those offices? If so then I don't know anything that prevents a state of 1 person. But there would have to be at least one person or else there's nobody for the state to be a state of.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:45 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Nothing is being "perpetuated" with DC statehood, to any greater degree than it is with Puerto Rican statehood.


Why? We have a perfectly good solution that doesn't require Frankenstates separated by thousands of miles, and all the logistical challenges that would present. And it's baffling that you object to statehood on the uncreative assertion that "cities aren't states" but think DC Rico is worth considering.


DC statehood does not move us further from one man one vote--that's simply not an organizing principle of the US Senate at all. Faulting DC statehood for not addressing something it cannot address is...odd.

This argument could just as easily be brought to bear against Puerto Rican statehood (which you support). Puerto Rico would have the same number of senators as Wyoming, despite having over five times the population. It's foolish to count that as a mark against Puerto Rican statehood, or to consider it a perpetuation of an unjust system--it's a flaw in the design of the Senate, not in the design of the proposal before us.
PR falls very near the median population for a U.S. State.
It would not be a ridiculous outlier in population like Wyoming or DC.
PR also has the advantage of being more than a single municipality.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:58 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
PR falls very near the median population for a U.S. State.
It would not be a ridiculous outlier in population like Wyoming or DC.
And? Your argument was the DC moves us further from the one-man-one-state principle, not that Wyoming and DC are wild outliers. "Median population states" are also over-represented in the Senate. Puerto Rico would have about 1% of the US population, and about 2% of the Senate. Are you now going to argue that doesn't "perpetuate the problem"?

Quote:
PR also has the advantage of being more than a single municipality.
This is not an advantage, it's simply irrelevant. Most American cities are contained by counties. New York is comprised of five counties. Does this imply that New York should be five separate cities, or that those counties should be merged? No, it's an irrelevant and arbitrary fact of organization, an accident of history. There's nothing magical about states.
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:59 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Nothing is being "perpetuated" with DC statehood, to any greater degree than it is with Puerto Rican statehood.


Why? We have a perfectly good solution that doesn't require Frankenstates separated by thousands of miles, and all the logistical challenges that would present. And it's baffling that you object to statehood on the uncreative assertion that "cities aren't states" but think DC Rico is worth considering.


DC statehood does not move us further from one man one vote--that's simply not an organizing principle of the US Senate at all. Faulting DC statehood for not addressing something it cannot address is...odd.

This argument could just as easily be brought to bear against Puerto Rican statehood (which you support). Puerto Rico would have the same number of senators as Wyoming, despite having over five times the population. It's foolish to count that as a mark against Puerto Rican statehood, or to consider it a perpetuation of an unjust system--it's a flaw in the design of the Senate, not in the design of the proposal before us.
Alaska and Hawaii are already geographically remote from the U.S., as PR would be were it to become one (to a lesser degree). Geographical distance has not been shown to being a major impediment to a cohesive state (small "t").
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:04 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There's nothing magical about states.
Louder for the people in the back.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:12 PM   #129
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Why are we entertaining this? It's just yet another case of the Right coming down with a convenient case of "Crippling acute onset can't do anything because it doesn't solve every problem"-itis when anyone suggests ways to improve the system they've cheated and stacked in their favor.

Right now Democratic and minority voters are either totally disenfranchised (DC, Puerto Rico, Felons, Prisoners) or have their votes count less (The Electoral College, the Senate (and to a lesser extent the House of Representatives) distribution) because they've created and bought into a "We have to keep those uppity inner city intellectual libruls from forcing their beliefs in... facts and equality on REAL 'MURICA!"

None of the "problems" Distracted1 is pretending to care about would actually be made worse by what is being made worse by giving the 700,000 people in DC (or the millions in Puerto Rico, Prison, or Felons) a voice.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:14 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Alaska and Hawaii are already geographically remote from the U.S., as PR would be were it to become one (to a lesser degree).
And? We're talking about the distance between one part of the state and another, not the state and the mainland.

More to the point, we don't know exactly what this would look like, but that's sufficient for you to reject an the idea of an urban state.

I see no reason to "get creative with it", because it's a simple problem with an easy solution. It's like asking me to "get creative" with adding up a column in an Excel spreadsheet. Coming up with a convoluted solution to a simple problem isn't creative, it's just stupid and inefficient.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:24 PM   #131
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This conversation is a joke. The GOP unfairly has far too much political power as a result of over-represented rural voters. The argument they are making against DC Statehood is really, yes we know that these inequities that favor them is unfair, but oh well, that's just the way it is.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:25 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
And? We're talking about the distance between one part of the state and another, not the state and the mainland.

More to the point, we don't know exactly what this would look like, but that's sufficient for you to reject an the idea of an urban state.

I see no reason to "get creative with it", because it's a simple problem with an easy solution. It's like asking me to "get creative" with adding up a column in an Excel spreadsheet. Coming up with a convoluted solution to a simple problem isn't creative, it's just stupid and inefficient.
The distance between Two municipalities in Alaska can be greater than that from DC to New Mexico.

"Stupid and inefficient" is giving a single city (and not a very large one at that) the status of "State"
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:29 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The distance between Two municipalities in Alaska can be greater than that from DC to New Mexico.

"Stupid and inefficient" is giving a single city (and not a very large one at that) the status of "State"
No it's not and saying it is because you don't like the complexion of what that state would look like doesn't make it so.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:30 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This conversation is a joke. The GOP unfairly has far too much political power as a result of over-represented rural voters. The argument they are making against DC Statehood is really, yes we know that these inequities that favor them is basically oh well, that's just the way it is.
Why in the world would we expect the GOP to push for a change that would not work in their favor.
Is the fact that they favor political advantage over rationality and principle, not, an argument for being on the other side?
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:32 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Why in the world would we expect the GOP to push for a change that would not work in their favor.
Is the fact that they favor political advantage over rationality and principle, not, an argument for being on the other side?
Maybe because it is the right thing to do?
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:33 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No it's not and saying it is because you don't like the complexion of what that state would look like doesn't make it so.
No need to bother with evidence when you just know, amirite!
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:34 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe because it is the right thing to do?
Only in the absence of (almost) any other option.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:38 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
"Stupid and inefficient" is giving a single city (and not a very large one at that) the status of "State"
No stupid and inefficient is giving 290,000 Wyoming cattle ranchers equal political power to 20,000,000 Californians.

Diane Feinstein and Kamala Harris each represent 19,756,111 people. If it was a country it would be the 5th largest economy and 37th most populated country in the world.

Mike Enzi and John Barrasso each represent 289,379 people. Fun fact there's an exactly equal ratio of Senators to Wyomingites as there are ******* escalators to Wyomingites.

They each get the same vote in the Senate. That's not Democracy. It is madness.

And you're pitching a Bob-fit over the idea of 705,749 people in Washington DC maybe getting representation because it will upset some apple cart that's tipped over years ago that you didn't care about until now.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:38 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The distance between Two municipalities in Alaska can be greater than that from DC to New Mexico.
And that's a problem. It makes providing services across the whole state difficult and expensive. It's not something you want to invite where you don't have to.

Quote:
"Stupid and inefficient" is giving a single city (and not a very large one at that) the status of "State"
I see we've reached the you're-rubber-and-I'm-glue portion of the conversation.

There's nothing stupid and inefficient about it. It's the only realistic way I see to resolve the problem while also respecting the self-determination of the people who live there.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:40 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No stupid and inefficient is giving 290,000 Wyoming cattle ranchers equal political power to 20,000,000 Californians.

Diane Feinstein and Kamala Harris each represent 19,756,111 people. If it was a country it would be the 5th largest economy and 37th most populated country in the world.

Mike Enzi and John Barrasso each represent 289,379 people. Fun fact there's an exactly equal ratio of Senators to Wyomingites as there are ******* escalators to Wyomingites.

They each get the same vote in the Senate. That's not Democracy. It is madness.

And you're pitching a Bob-fit over the idea of 705,749 people in Washington DC maybe getting representation because it will upset some apple cart that's tipped over years ago that you didn't care about until now.
Do the same thing when it suits us, and from where do we make the argument that it was wrong in the first place.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:42 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Do the same thing when it suits us, and from where do we make the argument that it was wrong in the first place.
That was total gibberish.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:44 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That was total gibberish.
Some concepts just don't grok with some peoples' worldview.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:45 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The residents of DC can get Senatorial representation through other means. Means that make more sense than having the same geographic area encompass a single city, county, and State.

More simply. Alaska, Wyomine et al.. make a mockery of Democracy- fixing that by creating another Wyoming is not valid.
Odd how it always works this way. Yeah, let's just fix Wyoming and Alaska. We know that that's a non-starter. One of the most robust findings in all of the social sciences is that people are loss averse. Conservatives understand this, which is why they oppose government programs that would, for example, provide more people with health insurance. Once in place, the program is tough to stop.

In the case of DC statehood, it's relatively easy to argue that instead of getting their own senators, they should just share Maryland's. They're only losing the hope of a better deal. But Wyoming, the "equality" state, will never ever accept losing the senate representation it's enjoyed for over a hundred years. Also, I don't object to the idea of a subnational unit like Wyoming. I object to the Senate. Wyoming has a clear, recognizable shape, unlike the "bug splat" district in Maryland, or the Goofy-kicking-Pluto district in Pennsylvania. It also has its own cowboy identity. Fine.

If in some alternative universe, we could conceivably revise subnational governments, conservatives again would cry out, "It's a power-grab!" If Wyoming were to lose its Republican senators, then DC losing its Democratic would make some theoretical-never-gonna-happen incorporation scheme appear MORE fair, thus making such a deal MORE rather than less plausible (even though both versions are completely implausible).
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:47 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Some concepts just don't grok with some peoples' worldview.
Yeah and "We can't let teh brown people outvote us!" should be one of them.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:01 PM   #145
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Personally I would be in favor of creating North DC and South DC. Who says it has to be only one state?
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:27 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Odd how it always works this way. Yeah, let's just fix Wyoming and Alaska. We know that that's a non-starter. One of the most robust findings in all of the social sciences is that people are loss averse. Conservatives understand this, which is why they oppose government programs that would, for example, provide more people with health insurance. Once in place, the program is tough to stop.

In the case of DC statehood, it's relatively easy to argue that instead of getting their own senators, they should just share Maryland's. They're only losing the hope of a better deal. But Wyoming, the "equality" state, will never ever accept losing the senate representation it's enjoyed for over a hundred years. Also, I don't object to the idea of a subnational unit like Wyoming. I object to the Senate. Wyoming has a clear, recognizable shape, unlike the "bug splat" district in Maryland, or the Goofy-kicking-Pluto district in Pennsylvania. It also has its own cowboy identity. Fine.

If in some alternative universe, we could conceivably revise subnational governments, conservatives again would cry out, "It's a power-grab!" If Wyoming were to lose its Republican senators, then DC losing its Democratic would make some theoretical-never-gonna-happen incorporation scheme appear MORE fair, thus making such a deal MORE rather than less plausible (even though both versions are completely implausible).
Does it "always work that way", though?
Have the States that currently go reliably one way or the other always gone that way?

If the argument is that "the system is unfair"(which it is) and "needs to be fixed" (which it does) is not predicated on the principle of trying to make it the most fair why pretend that the goal is anything other than securing an advantage for its' own sake.

Don't bother with the ********. Just unleash your inner Trump (re: "mail in voting means Republicans never get elected, ergo, no mail in votes except where they work in my favor).
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:27 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Only in the absence of (almost) any other option.
I haven't read one from you. Mostly what I'm reading from you is that a city can't be a State. Tell that to Monaco and the Vatican. Both are Nation States and both are smaller than DC.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:29 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah and "We can't let teh brown people outvote us!" should be one of them.
That you again Miss Cleo?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxopPDMq7rs
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:33 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That you again Miss Cleo?
*Shrugs* Make a coherent argument that actually addresses all the handwringings you pretend to be concerned about and I'll adjust my viewpoint. Until then it stands.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:37 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I haven't read one from you. Mostly what I'm reading from you is that a city can't be a State. Tell that to Monaco and the Vatican. Both are Nation States and both are smaller than DC.
You missed quite a bit then.
Attaching DC to an existing State being the most prominent.
Maryland or VA being the most reasonable seeming choices, but other States not to be excluded.
Attach DC to Puerto Rico, and perhaps some of the other territories that should have representation to create a 51st State.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:44 PM   #151
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* Make a coherent argument that actually addresses all the handwringings you pretend to be concerned about and I'll adjust my viewpoint. Until then it stands.
Used to be the person making the positive claim was responsible for proving it.
But I would not presume to hold one of Miss Cleos' "differently abled" devotees to such a standard.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:46 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You missed quite a bit then.
Attaching DC to an existing State being the most prominent.
Maryland or VA being the most reasonable seeming choices, but other States not to be excluded.
Attach DC to Puerto Rico, and perhaps some of the other territories that should have representation to create a 51st State.
None of this addresses the real issue which is fair representation in the US Senate.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:48 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
None of this addresses the real issue which is fair representation in the US Senate.
How is getting the residents of DC representation in the Senate not addressing it?
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:54 PM   #154
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deleted. Was poking just for the sake of poking.
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Old 28th June 2020, 05:00 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
Personally I would be in favor of creating North DC and South DC. Who says it has to be only one state?
Well, DC is already divided into four quadrants. Why not go for four?
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Old 28th June 2020, 05:00 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How is getting the residents of DC representation in the Senate not addressing it?
You just want to have them call the Senators from Maryland, Virginia or PR theirs.

If there is enough people in Wyoming to have two Senators, why can't even more citizens in DC get 2 Senators?
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Old 28th June 2020, 05:06 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You just want to have them call the Senators from Maryland, Virginia or PR theirs.

If there is enough people in Wyoming to have two Senators, why can't even more citizens in DC get 2 Senators?
Why can't I personally get two Senators.

Hyperbole aside, though, yes. Just like I (being a Philadelphian) must content myself with calling Pennsylvanias' Senators "my" Senators.

Speaking of Pennsylvania, we have twelve million people, if we only get two Senators- why should a city with around 5% of that population get two Senators as well?

FWIW, there are more black people in Philadelphia alone than there are total people in DC
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Old 28th June 2020, 05:24 PM   #158
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Why can't I personally get two Senators.

Hyperbole aside, though, yes. Just like I (being a Philadelphian) must content myself with calling Pennsylvanias' Senators "my" Senators.

Speaking of Pennsylvania, we have twelve million people, if we only get two Senators- why should a city with around 5% of that population get two Senators as well?

FWIW, there are more black people in Philadelphia alone than there are total people in DC

This is why the Senate needs to be abolished. But until that day comes, there is no reason we can't start with making DC a State.
The point is this all arbitrary.
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Old 28th June 2020, 05:32 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is why the Senate needs to be abolished. But until that day comes, there is no reason we can't start with making DC a State.
The point is this all arbitrary.
I agree, the Senate is not a just institution.

Doesn't make it all right to "run a train" on the other States that are underrepresented.
"Might as well let DC **** you, after all WY and MT already have"

Is there some justification for a black Philadelphian to have one eighteenth the representation in the Senate as a black DC "ite"? "an"? "er"?
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Old 28th June 2020, 05:50 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Does it "always work that way", though?
Have the States that currently go reliably one way or the other always gone that way?

If the argument is that "the system is unfair"(which it is) and "needs to be fixed" (which it does) is not predicated on the principle of trying to make it the most fair why pretend that the goal is anything other than securing an advantage for its' own sake.

Don't bother with the ********. Just unleash your inner Trump (re: "mail in voting means Republicans never get elected, ergo, no mail in votes except where they work in my favor).
What a bunch of nonsense. Reducing Wyoming's power in the Senate makes the system more fair, but allowing DC representation in the House and Senate also makes the system more fair. The former has no chance of taking effect, and does nothing to remedy DC's lack of legislative representation.

Quote:
Attach DC to Puerto Rico, and perhaps some of the other territories that should have representation to create a 51st State.
That's just whacky. How does attaching DC to Puerto Rico make more sense than entering DC on its own? It's a distinct polity recognized in a relatively recent amendment. City-states pre-date nation-states. The mayor of a large city has more responsibilities than the governor of a small state. Not only do we have city-state countries mentioned above, but in at least one country (Mexico), a city (Mexico City) has representation in the upper-chamber (Mexico's Senate, which is modeled after the US system).
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