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Tags Washington DC issues , Washington DC politics

View Poll Results: Should DC get Statehood?
Yes. 61 84.72%
No. 11 15.28%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th June 2020, 06:06 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree, the Senate is not a just institution.

Doesn't make it all right to "run a train" on the other States that are underrepresented.
"Might as well let DC **** you, after all WY and MT already have"

Is there some justification for a black Philadelphian to have one eighteenth the representation in the Senate as a black DC "ite"? "an"? "er"?

But neither does it make sense that 300,000 white people in Wyoming have more power.

A black man in DC is more likely to share the same concerns as a black man in Philadelphia than a rancher in Wyoming. It will certainly empower that two Senators who likely will look like the Philadelphian.

But the big problem with your argument is the idea that Senators mostly represent their States. Over 500 pieces of legislation passed by the United States House of Representatives aren't being considered by any Senator beyond Mitch McConnell. As long as one side can control legislation and judges based on controlling 10 states that combined make up half the population of California.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:21 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But neither does it make sense that 300,000 white people in Wyoming have more power.
Why are you making this about race? If you think the system giving small states disproportionate power is a bad thing, wouldn't that be just as much of a problem if they were black?
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:23 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you making this about race?
Because that's the exact reason it's an issue.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:30 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because that's the exact reason it's an issue.
Why? Why would it be OK if whites were underrepresented? Why would it be OK if one group of whites was underrepresented and another group was overrepresented? Why is it only a problem if it's racial?

That seems, frankly, racist.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:30 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree, the Senate is not a just institution.

Doesn't make it all right to "run a train" on the other States that are underrepresented.
"Might as well let DC **** you, after all WY and MT already have"

Is there some justification for a black Philadelphian to have one eighteenth the representation in the Senate as a black DC "ite"? "an"? "er"?
Is the general assembly of the UN unjust because it is one nation one vote?
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:37 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why? Why would it be OK if whites were underrepresented? Why would it be OK if one group of whites was underrepresented and another group was overrepresented? Why is it only a problem if it's racial?

That seems, frankly, racist.
Do you have a problem with math?

One group of whites would not be underrepresented and another group overrepresented, not by a long shot.

Try that again. One group of whites that has been overrepresented for decades would be less so.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:45 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you have a problem with math?
Oh, SG, you so don't want to go there. You will lose, badly.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:47 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why? Why would it be OK if whites were underrepresented? Why would it be OK if one group of whites was underrepresented and another group was overrepresented? Why is it only a problem if it's racial?

That seems, frankly, racist.
Oh Jesus Christ how much effort do you put into pretending you don't understand things? Because just watching you do it is wearing me out at this point.

*Very slowly* It would be a problem if whites were underrepresented, but that's not what's happening. I know Conservatives have a real hard time with this but we're discussing actual problems in the actual real world, not a hypothetical world where you're the victim. When someone's house is burning down we go put out their fire, we don't listen to you whine about "Oh so it would be okay if my house was on fire?"

That fact that it's racial against black people is why you and yours are pretending it's not a problem or that it can't be solved.

Are you caught up now?
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:48 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you making this about race? If you think the system giving small states disproportionate power is a bad thing, wouldn't that be just as much of a problem if they were black?
It's not all about race. But it IS affected by race.

And the answer to your last question is NO.

There are a total of 3 African Americans serving in the US Senate today if you count Kamala Harris who is mixed race. FYI: Since 1789 there have been 1984 different individuals who have served in the US Senate. The total of African Americans who have served in that period is 10.

Are you really concerned about fairness?

Senators are not executives. They are voting on NATIONAL POLICIES. How could this be a problem?
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:00 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* It would be a problem if whites were underrepresented, but that's not what's happening.
Oh, but it is, if you think that Senate representation should be based on population. California is full of white people, and they have much less representation in the Senate on a per capita basis than a number of other states. And there are white people living in DC who have no representation.

If you think only aggregate representation by race matters, rather than an individual's representation, well, you're a racist.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:14 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but it is, if you think that Senate representation should be based on population. California is full of white people, and they have much less representation in the Senate on a per capita basis than a number of other states. And there are white people living in DC who have no representation.

If you think only aggregate representation by race matters, rather than an individual's representation, well, you're a racist.
Deliberately obtuse.

That's like saying that I, a caucasian wasn't represented by an African American president. South Carolina is predominantly white and the GOP even more so and yet Tim Scott is a black Republican US Senator.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:21 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but it is, if you think that Senate representation should be based on population. California is full of white people, and they have much less representation in the Senate on a per capita basis than a number of other states. And there are white people living in DC who have no representation.

If you think only aggregate representation by race matters, rather than an individual's representation, well, you're a racist.
Yeah you're just doing your "LOL I don't understand and am going to have a conversation with the voices in my head" routine.

Join us at the adult table when you're ready to actually listen to the arguments people are making.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:39 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But neither does it make sense that 300,000 white people in Wyoming have more power.

A black man in DC is more likely to share the same concerns as a black man in Philadelphia than a rancher in Wyoming. It will certainly empower that two Senators who likely will look like the Philadelphian.

But the big problem with your argument is the idea that Senators mostly represent their States. Over 500 pieces of legislation passed by the United States House of Representatives aren't being considered by any Senator beyond Mitch McConnell. As long as one side can control legislation and judges based on controlling 10 states that combined make up half the population of California.
Considering that the population of DC is only 47% black (and going with your assumption that blacks are a uniform block who will always see things the same way) the highlighted is far from a certainty. It is entirely possible we could wind up with two more white guys giving the white population of DC in the Senate 88 times the representation of a Black Person from Houston.

Edited to remove something not claimed.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:53 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Considering that the population of DC is only 47% black (and going with your assumption that blacks are a uniform block who will always see things the same way) the highlighted is far from a certainty. It is entirely possible we could wind up with two more white guys giving the white population of DC (again, using your implied assumption that whites only represent their white constituents) in the Senate 88 times the representation of a Black Person from Houston.
Of course they're not. But given that the mayor of DC has been African American all but 8 years since 1967, there is a good chance DC might elect Senators with some color.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:08 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, SG, you so don't want to go there. You will lose, badly.
You could just address what I said instead of this dodge.

To remind you, the point was: One group of whites would not be underrepresented and another group overrepresented, not by a long shot.

Try that again. One group of whites that has been overrepresented for decades would be less so.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:13 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but it is, if you think that Senate representation should be based on population. California is full of white people, and they have much less representation in the Senate on a per capita basis than a number of other states. And there are white people living in DC who have no representation.

If you think only aggregate representation by race matters, rather than an individual's representation, well, you're a racist.
This dodge isn't going to cut it either.

Whites in California are seriously underrepresented while whites in Wyoming are seriously overrepresented. But that is seriously beside the point.

If you take the whole country whites still have too much representation compared to blacks. DC statehood would move the dial in the right direction. As a white person, I'm for DC statehood.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:38 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This dodge isn't going to cut it either.

Whites in California are seriously underrepresented while whites in Wyoming are seriously overrepresented. But that is seriously beside the point.
No, actually, it isn't. If proportional senate representation is important, then that's very much the point.

Quote:
If you take the whole country whites still have too much representation compared to blacks.
And? How does that help under-represented white people? How does that harm over-represented black people? It doesn't, unless you view racial identity as paramount.

But that's a very bad way to look at the world. It is, frankly, a racist way to look at the world. Identity politics is cancer.
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:40 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You could just address what I said instead of this dodge.

To remind you, the point was: One group of whites would not be underrepresented and another group overrepresented, not by a long shot.
You're wrong, trivially. Seriously, this is basic math. Whites in California are under-represented in the Senate, and whites in Alaska are over-represented, compared to proportional representation. One group is underrepresented, and another is overrepresented.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:11 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're wrong, trivially. Seriously, this is basic math. Whites in California are under-represented in the Senate, and whites in Alaska are over-represented, compared to proportional representation. One group is underrepresented, and another is overrepresented.
How is that different than what Ginger said?
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:24 PM   #180
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What in the ****?

California is 37% white.

Fifty percent of our senators are white (unless you're going to say Diane Feinstein is actually half-white/half-dinosaur).
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:47 PM   #181
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Ziggurat's point is that if you leave aside race and political alignment to focus on the sets created by states, then the unequal representation California suffers from isn't changed by DC becoming a state. The people of California are still under represented even if the overall outcome of the system becomes slightly more in step with what they want because the way we got there wasn't by increasing California's representation.

But it's not exactly a keen insight to say that if you remove race and politics then race and politics don't matter. Further, it sets aside that the overall system becomes more representative, which is better for the people of California even if they don't directly get more representation. Hell, the are a whole host of problems with the argument and it depends on framing the set exactly there, because any larger OR smaller framing and the argument falls apart.

It's a Zigg classic; a narrow argument refuting another posters specific wording from a certain point of view, that doesn't advance the discussion nor have much utility on its own. But hey, you can call everyone silly for not getting your point and being 'correct' if looked at just right.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:50 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
.... It's a Zigg classic; a narrow argument refuting another posters specific wording from a certain point of view, that doesn't advance the discussion nor have much utility on its own. But hey, you can call everyone silly for not getting your point and being 'correct' if looked at just right.
Bingo!
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:09 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Ziggurat's point is that if you leave aside race and political alignment to focus on the sets created by states, then the unequal representation California suffers from isn't changed by DC becoming a state. The people of California are still under represented even if the overall outcome of the system becomes slightly more in step with what they want because the way we got there wasn't by increasing California's representation.

But it's not exactly a keen insight to say that if you remove race and politics then race and politics don't matter. Further, it sets aside that the overall system becomes more representative, which is better for the people of California even if they don't directly get more representation. Hell, the are a whole host of problems with the argument and it depends on framing the set exactly there, because any larger OR smaller framing and the argument falls apart.

It's a Zigg classic; a narrow argument refuting another posters specific wording from a certain point of view, that doesn't advance the discussion nor have much utility on its own. But hey, you can call everyone silly for not getting your point and being 'correct' if looked at just right.
And this is a tyr classic: miss the point on purpose.

If non-proportional representation in the senate is a problem, then itís a problem regardless of race. If making DC a state improves representation, then it does so regardless of race. You donít need race to make any of these arguments in favor of DC statehood. The race angle is the worst argument in favor of it.

And yet, itís the go to one. Because once you subscribe to identity politics, it becomes all-consuming. As I said, identity politics is cancer.
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:34 AM   #184
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While we're talking about carving up the country to get some extra states out of it, can we go ahead and lob Chicago off of Illinois and call it a State too? Most of Illinois doesn't lean the same direction as Chicago, yet we are forced to go along with whatever whim they foist on the rest of the state, regularly.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:22 AM   #185
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The DoI needs to be rewritten without any natural rights crap.

The Constitution needs an overhaul, starting with adopting a parliamentary system and a complete overhaul of how judges are selected.

Quite a number of states should be combined, and/or ND+SD+MT+NE as well as AZ+NM should be returned to Native Americans.

Barring that, at least make DC a state. Grew up there. It ain't MD. Same legitimacy as any other state, and is already a federal administrative entity, precursor to statehood for many historical states as well. What makes any community a nation, state, province, or township is a sense of shared interest, and is what drives support for its incorporation, dissolution, independence or dependence. What those who do not live there think about political status is no measure whatsoever of such legitimacy.

DC is no exception.

The limiting factor to any such process remains, as always, respect for grounding democratic principles in governance and for the human rights derived therefrom, such that no community may be formed to give legal status to those engaged in activities that violate those basic precepts (in short, forget any hand-waving from fans of the illegitimate Confederacy). (These criteria, btw, are also violated by the oddball, out-of-place, illogical and ungrounded 2ndA.)
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:37 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The DoI needs to be rewritten without any natural rights crap.

The Constitution needs an overhaul, starting with adopting a parliamentary system and a complete overhaul of how judges are selected.

Quite a number of states should be combined, and/or ND+SD+MT+NE as well as AZ+NM should be returned to Native Americans.

Barring that, at least make DC a state. Grew up there. It ain't MD. Same legitimacy as any other state, and is already a federal administrative entity, precursor to statehood for many historical states as well. What makes any community a nation, state, province, or township is a sense of shared interest, and is what drives support for its incorporation, dissolution, independence or dependence. What those who do not live there think about political status is no measure whatsoever of such legitimacy.

DC is no exception.

The limiting factor to any such process remains, as always, respect for grounding democratic principles in governance and for the human rights derived therefrom, such that no community may be formed to give legal status to those engaged in activities that violate those basic precepts (in short, forget any hand-waving from fans of the illegitimate Confederacy). (These criteria, btw, are also violated by the oddball, out-of-place, illogical and ungrounded 2ndA.)
If such a major overhaul is to be done, why would you keep the concept of independent "States" at all?
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:00 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's a Zigg classic; a narrow argument refuting another posters specific wording from a certain point of view, that doesn't advance the discussion nor have much utility on its own. But hey, you can call everyone silly for not getting your point and being 'correct' if looked at just right.
*Scene, busy restaurant. A man starts choking on his steak dinner*

Man's wife: "Quick! Somebody help him! He's choking on his porterhouse!"

*Several patrons jump up and run to the man, ready to help him*

Zigg: "STOP! That man's not choking on a porterhouse! He clearly ordered the T-bone! Look how small that tenderloin section of the cut is! No way that's a porterhouse!"

*Man starts turning blue*

Wife: "I don't care! Just help him!"

*Man starts pounding fist on table*

Zigg: *Standing in between the choking man and the people trying to help.* "Your entire premise is faulty. You are trying to save a person choking on a porterhouse. This man is choking on a t-bone."

1st Bystander: "Will you just move and let us help that man!"

Zigg: "Not until you admit that's a T-bone and not a porterhouse he's choking on!"

*Choking Man collapses face first into this mashed potatoes*

2nd Bystander: "That man is dying let us help him!"

Zigg: "Oh so you're saying T-bones and Porterhouses are the same cut? Don't go there with me, I'm a butcher's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate. You will not win."

*Choking Man dies. Wife cradles his body in classic Pieta Pose, wailing. Bystanders walk away mumbling and in shock. Zigg high fives himself and fist pumps the air.*

Zigg: "Another win! Proved them wrong."
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:02 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If such a major overhaul is to be done, why would you keep the concept of independent "States" at all?
Why indeed.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:04 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? Right now the Senate stops EVERYTHING! It doesn't matter what is passed in the House. GOP Senators in North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska, Montana, Idaho and Alaska put a halt to it all. Now that is a hell of a lot of land they represent. It just isn't a lot of people.

A cow in any of these states wields more political power than a resident of California, New York and especially DC.

Frankly, we should just eliminate the US Senate entirely and make DC a Congressional district of Maryland.

But that won't happen.
Suppose for a minute that you started agreeing with the notion that it is 50 sovereigns together, that we are spiritually a union of sovereign nations more like the EU.

How would you change the system?
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:31 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The DoI needs to be rewritten without any natural rights crap.
The Declaration of Independence, although a lovely historical document, holds no legal standing in the US. It was just a well-worded "F.U." to Britain. Some people imagine that, coming from some of the same people who wrote the later Constitution, it gives insight into their minds and therefore can be used to inform legal interpretations of the Constitution. I'm not aware they've ever met with success in a single case where that's been attempted.

It's a marvellous source for passionate appeals to rhetoric, though! Better than a Bible quote, or Shakespeare, when it comes to appealing to the masses.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:33 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Suppose for a minute that you started agreeing with the notion that it is 50 sovereigns together, that we are spiritually a union of sovereign nations more like the EU.

How would you change the system?
The same way people used to merge overmany small sovereign nations: make the leaders marry each other and leave the combined states to their heir. It's amazing how many of life's complex problems could be solved by doin' it!
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:36 AM   #192
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Simple fix. 3 rules.

1. All adult citizens must have a representative.
2. A) All representatives from the same organization must represent the same number of citizens.
OR
B) When casting votes representatives get a vote for each of the people they represent.
3. Citizens who are disenfranchised from voting do not count toward your population for the purposes of calculating #2.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:41 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Simple fix. 3 rules.

1. All adult citizens must have a representative.
2. All representatives from the same organization must represent the same number of citizens.
3. Citizens who are disenfranchised from voting do not count toward your population for the purposes of calculating #2.
For #3, could the cash raised by selling prisoners into private prisons be used via PACs to bribe other politicians to get the equivalent number of votes that would have been theirs had they not disenfranchised those chattel? Asking for some red state friends!
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:43 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
For #3, could the cash raised by selling prisoners into private prisons be used via PACs to bribe other politicians to get the equivalent number of votes that would have been theirs had they not disenfranchised those chattel? Asking for some red state friends!
Tell them sure, but they will only count as 3/5ths. Something tells me they'll like that compromise for some reason they won't be able to put their finger on.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Tell them sure, but they will only count as 3/5ths. Something tells me they'll like that compromise for some reason they won't be able to put their finger on.
Sadly enough, I don't think that compromise would work today. They'd want 100% and wouldn't budge, no matter what destruction resulted from the lack of a compromise.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:50 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Scene, busy restaurant. A man starts choking on his steak dinner*

Man's wife: "Quick! Somebody help him! He's choking on his porterhouse!"

*Several patrons jump up and run to the man, ready to help him*

Zigg: "STOP! That man's not choking on a porterhouse! He clearly ordered the T-bone! Look how small that tenderloin section of the cut is! No way that's a porterhouse!"

*Man starts turning blue*

Wife: "I don't care! Just help him!"

*Man starts pounding fist on table*

Zigg: *Standing in between the choking man and the people trying to help.* "Your entire premise is faulty. You are trying to save a person choking on a porterhouse. This man is choking on a t-bone."

1st Bystander: "Will you just move and let us help that man!"

Zigg: "Not until you admit that's a T-bone and not a porterhouse he's choking on!"

*Choking Man collapses face first into this mashed potatoes*

2nd Bystander: "That man is dying let us help him!"

Zigg: "Oh so you're saying T-bones and Porterhouses are the same cut? Don't go there with me, I'm a butcher's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate. You will not win."

*Choking Man dies. Wife cradles his body in classic Pieta Pose, wailing. Bystanders walk away mumbling and in shock. Zigg high fives himself and fist pumps the air.*

Zigg: "Another win! Proved them wrong."
Funny how even your analogy has to resort to harm to individuals, when that's precisely my point: harm to individuals is what matters. And an individual is either harmed or not harmed, regardless of their race. If you are harmed, I am not harmed because I share the same race as you. And if there is reason for me to care about the harm done to you, it isn't because we share the same race either.

But that sure is a lot of work you put in to an irrelevant attempt at a counter-argument which misses the point completely.
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:37 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Suppose for a minute that you started agreeing with the notion that it is 50 sovereigns together, that we are spiritually a union of sovereign nations more like the EU.

How would you change the system?
I don't know. The United States from1776 until 1789 was basically 13 different countries. They each created their own currency. They had different tax systems. It didn't work.
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:53 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And this is a tyr classic: miss the point on purpose.

If non-proportional representation in the senate is a problem, then itís a problem regardless of race. If making DC a state improves representation, then it does so regardless of race. You donít need race to make any of these arguments in favor of DC statehood. The race angle is the worst argument in favor of it.

And yet, itís the go to one. Because once you subscribe to identity politics, it becomes all-consuming. As I said, identity politics is cancer.
Here's the proble with your analysis. It is deliberately obtuse. You're pretending that the GOP hasn't been and isn't overwhelmingly playing identity politics. They just won't say it out loud. They deliberately appeal to white voters and suppress the political participation of black voters. They promote policies that are racist and oppressive to people of color.

Let's be honest, if DC's population looked like Wyoming you'd be first in line pushing for Statehood. And not because you're racist, but because you know that African Americans overwhelmingly tend to vote Democratic. More than anything, you just don't want to see two more Democratic Senators.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:06 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If such a major overhaul is to be done, why would you keep the concept of independent "States" at all?
I think something along the lines of eight or large nine regions would make more sense, generally speaking sharing common local climates or other specific conditions, responses to which serve as shared interests. However, that is not in the realm of the likely.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:08 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think something along the lines of eight or nine regions would make more sense, generally speaking sharing common local climates or other specific conditions, responses to which serve as shared interests.
South, Midwest, West, Pacific Northwest, California, and Yankee Territory.
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