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Old 4th July 2020, 09:32 AM   #1
Cainkane1
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Jehovah Witnesses, Wow are they what?

Words fail me. Jehovah's Witnesses at my door gave me a pamphlet about the coming destruction of the planet earth. Apostles are apparently going to burn alive but Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be protected and given a restored earthly paradise.

This kind of flies in the face of a Supreme being that's supposed to be kind just and loving but that's what their literature said.

I was kind of lonesome that day so when they asked me to discuss my possible immolation I casually told them that that scenario was very similar to what happened on Mars. I told them that at one time Mars had had an ocean, rivers, streams and who knows what else but after its collision with the asteroid or comet everything dried up.

They seemed interested and they asked me in a sincere way how many people had died on Mars after that event?

Jehovah's Witnesses are good examples of the harm religion can do to people. The Witnesses are a very big cult but they are a cult and anything that isn't from their own teachings is suspect.

Surely they aren't all this ignorant.
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Old 4th July 2020, 02:58 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
....Surely they aren't all this ignorant.
All powerful gods, virgin births, rising from the dead, parting the seas, performing miracles, turning water to wine, walking on water it goes on and on. Who is not this ignorant?

Ranb
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Old 4th July 2020, 03:08 PM   #3
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Next time they come by, ask them how many of them there are, and how many can go to heaven.
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Old 4th July 2020, 10:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Words fail me. Jehovah's Witnesses at my door gave me a pamphlet about the coming destruction of the planet earth. Apostles are apparently going to burn alive but Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be protected and given a restored earthly paradise.

This kind of flies in the face of a Supreme being that's supposed to be kind just and loving but that's what their literature said.

I was kind of lonesome that day so when they asked me to discuss my possible immolation I casually told them that that scenario was very similar to what happened on Mars. I told them that at one time Mars had had an ocean, rivers, streams and who knows what else but after its collision with the asteroid or comet everything dried up.

They seemed interested and they asked me in a sincere way how many people had died on Mars after that event?

Jehovah's Witnesses are good examples of the harm religion can do to people. The Witnesses are a very big cult but they are a cult and anything that isn't from their own teachings is suspect.

Surely they aren't all this ignorant.
The bulk of mainstream Christianity such as Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, and evangelical Christians consider the Witnesses to be spaced out even by Christian standards.

One particularly lamentable and dangerous belief is their refusal to do blood transfusions, based on a misinterpretation of a biblical edict forbidding the eating of blood. Lots of Jehovah's Witness parents have had the state temporarily seize custody of their children so that the child may receive a life-giving transfusion.

There is a core set of beliefs that most divisions of Christianity adhere to, and the Witnesses dispense with practically all of them. They're like a team that shows up to a baseball series with a whole alternate set of interpretations for the rules as set out in the rulebook, then insist every other team is playing baseball wrong by not adhering to their way of doing things.

More than anyone else they have consistently predicted the end of the world and have been wrong every time. I think they no longer give an actual date.
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Old 4th July 2020, 10:19 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
All powerful gods, virgin births, rising from the dead, parting the seas, performing miracles, turning water to wine, walking on water it goes on and on. Who is not this ignorant?

Ranb
I see what you did there.
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Old 4th July 2020, 10:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
.... There is a core set of beliefs that most divisions of Christianity adhere to, ...
Evidence?

I like you man, but this is crap. Christians are all over the map with said "core beliefs".
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 4th July 2020 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 4th July 2020, 10:32 PM   #7
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Ever since the CV thing hit they stopoed the door to door soul saving here.
That protection direct from god must not apply in Mexico.
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Old 4th July 2020, 11:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Next time they come by, ask them how many of them there are, and how many can go to heaven.
Ha ha 8.4 million, gotta do a lot of door knocking to make the top 144 thousand.

Good one!
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Old 5th July 2020, 12:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
The bulk of mainstream Christianity such as Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, and evangelical Christians consider the Witnesses to be spaced out even by Christian standards.

One particularly lamentable and dangerous belief is their refusal to do blood transfusions, based on a misinterpretation of a biblical edict forbidding the eating of blood. Lots of Jehovah's Witness parents have had the state temporarily seize custody of their children so that the child may receive a life-giving transfusion.

There is a core set of beliefs that most divisions of Christianity adhere to, and the Witnesses dispense with practically all of them. They're like a team that shows up to a baseball series with a whole alternate set of interpretations for the rules as set out in the rulebook, then insist every other team is playing baseball wrong by not adhering to their way of doing things.

More than anyone else they have consistently predicted the end of the world and have been wrong every time. I think they no longer give an actual date.
Sounds like Martin Luther and those darn Protestants!
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Old 5th July 2020, 05:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Evidence?

I like you man, but this is crap. Christians are all over the map with said "core beliefs".
I'll try an analogy here. Consider Christianity as a whole to be like matter, which is composed of molecules, which in turn are composed of atoms, which in turn are composed of a series of electron shells around a core of protons and neutrons. It's that sort of "core" I'm thinking of. Basically every branch of Christianity espouses all or most of the following (I'm trying to make a straightforward list here, not write a theological treatise):
  • There is a supernatural being called God, who created everything, including his favourite creation, humans
  • God would like all humans to be with him, perhaps in the same way pet owners prefer their cats and dogs to be with them
  • But there's a big problem: God has decreed all humans to be "sinful" and not worthy of being with him (you might love your dog, but after an encounter with a skunk)
  • (Aside: even if a human has lived a totally exemplary life, he or she is still tainted with "original sin")
  • For reasons that aren't entirely clear, God has also decreed that human sinfulness can be removed ("cleaned away" or "cleansed") "with blood" (I've heard tomato juice is one way to remove skunk stink from a dog)
  • Originally said blood was real and came from goats, chickens, cattle and the like
  • But humans weren't very good at keeping up the blood offerings because they were constantly sinning, so God decided to make the ultimate blood sacrifice—that of himself, in the form of his son Jesus, who finalized that sacrifice via crucifixion
  • Because lots of other people had been crucified before and since, to make it clear Jesus was the One he was resurrected three days after dying
  • Being God's blood and not merely that of chickens and goats, it's powerful enough to remove all sin from everyone for all time
  • Now that the ultimate blood sacrifice has been made, all a human has to do in order to become worthy of going into God's presence is to simply acknowledge that Jesus has done all the work. By doing so the sin is removed and the human gains the same everlasting life that's enjoyed by Jesus following his resurrection.
  • Here's one place where Catholics and Protestants diverge: typically Catholic theology says the acknowledgement is merely the starting point and people have to keep busy doing "good works" and following the many traditions the Catholic church has built up over the centuries. Protestants usually say the acknowledgement itself is sufficient: "You don't do good works to get saved; you do good works because you are saved" is one way it's expressed.
  • At death or the Final Judgement, those who have made that acknowledgement are free of sin and can be in God's presence, usually interpreted as being in heaven. Those who have not done so cannot go into God's presence, but the Devil has a nice warm place for them to stay.
  • Some branches disagree on what happens to the "unsaved" after the final judgement. Most get really uncomfortable if you ask about people who have never heard of any of this.

That's my take, having been raised in the Anglican church and then spending a decade as a fire-and-brimstone evangelical.

Unsurprisingly, skeptics start asking questions right at the first point and tend not to give much credence to the remainder.
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Old 5th July 2020, 06:17 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Next time they come by, ask them how many of them there are, and how many can go to heaven.
The number of people going to heaven according to them is quite small. In the low 100 thousands. I am thinking 125k for some reason. How do I know? I dated one in high school
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Surely they aren't all this ignorant.
Jehovah's Witnesses have an enormous turnover, because you're right, lots of them aren't that stupid, and give up.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/...716987,00.html

Originally Posted by MinnesotaBrant View Post
The number of people going to heaven according to them is quite small. In the low 100 thousands. I am thinking 125k for some reason. How do I know? I dated one in high school
144 thousand. Magical number of the 12 tribes of Israel, who get to send 12,000 each to heaven.

You get to the top by getting the most converts.

This is where Amway got their playbook from, with similar levels of adherent churn.
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Old 5th July 2020, 08:23 PM   #13
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Tell them the Great Day of Reckoning and The End Of The World(TM) happened about two weeks ago. About 130,000 Americans were taken up by God.

So clearly they have missed the boat on that one, and now they will just have to stay here on Earth with the rest of us "Unsaved" and make the best of it.
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Old 5th July 2020, 08:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Surely they aren't all this ignorant.
They are. And don't call me Shirley.
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Old 5th July 2020, 11:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
They are. And don't call me Shirley.
Things like the planets just aren't important to them as a group, so they never include it in their education. It's a bit cultish actually.
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Old 5th July 2020, 11:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Jehovah's Witnesses have an enormous turnover, because you're right, lots of them aren't that stupid, and give up.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/...716987,00.html



144 thousand. Magical number of the 12 tribes of Israel, who get to send 12,000 each to heaven.

You get to the top by getting the most converts.

This is where Amway got their playbook from, with similar levels of adherent churn.
Isn’t there something about them being seen arranged in a perfect square, which is tricky since 144,000 isn’t a square number?
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Old 6th July 2020, 12:15 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Isn’t there something about them being seen arranged in a perfect square, which is tricky since 144,000 isn’t a square number?
One thousand groups of 12x12. In serried ranks assembled to catch the comet!
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Old 6th July 2020, 09:38 AM   #18
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They have given seven dates for The End, the first one being 1873 IIRC. As each date passes, they retcon or say they never set the date (but they did).
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Old 6th July 2020, 09:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
More than anyone else they have consistently predicted the end of the world and have been wrong every time. I think they no longer give an actual date.
The Church of the SubGenius (who have predicted the end of the world being 7am on July 5, 1998 for going on several decades now) were glad to hear the JWs did this, as they weren't going to let the Jehovah's Witnesses out-kook them.
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Old 6th July 2020, 12:19 PM   #20
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Yep, seven
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Old 6th July 2020, 12:37 PM   #21
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Not much difference between the JWs and the MAGAs.
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Old 6th July 2020, 12:39 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Not much difference between the JWs and the MAGAs.
JWs are not involved in politics, nor do they vote. "My kingdom is no part of this world."
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Old 6th July 2020, 01:17 PM   #23
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Obligatory mention of the time I came off my pushbike just yards away from two JW's. I wasn't badly hurt, but they didn't know that, they just walked the other way.
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Old 6th July 2020, 01:29 PM   #24
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They also don't celebrate Easter or Christmas, or even birthdays.
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Old 6th July 2020, 01:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Apostles are apparently going to burn alive
Wasn't that supposed to be apostates? No wonder Judas hung himself.
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Old 6th July 2020, 02:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
They also don't celebrate Easter or Christmas, or even birthdays.
The birthday thing was fairly thin: Birthday celebrations are mentioned in the Bible 3 times. Bad things happened, so we shouldn't celebrate birthdays? It's worse than 'eating blood.'

Christmas, along with the no birthday thing uses the same facts atheists use to discredit the date chosen.

Easter is obvious, but JWs do 'The Lords Evening Meal' because Jesus said "keep doing this." It's on passover, so at least it's a holiday for another group (the name escapes me ) They pass wine and crackers, but no one partakes because it's only for the 'heavenly class' aka the 144k.
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Old 6th July 2020, 03:28 PM   #27
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I wonder if the Bible has anything to say about wearing masks?
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Old 6th July 2020, 04:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I wonder if the Bible has anything to say about wearing masks?
John 42:99-103.

Just after the bit about guns.
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Old 6th July 2020, 04:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I wonder if the Bible has anything to say about wearing masks?
I haven't been in that world for 40+ years. My brother is, last I heard, still a JW. My information on him is coincidentally 40+ years out of date.

Aside from blood, which they feel quite strongly about with a tenuous scripture at best, there are no edicts regarding health maintenance. Even blood was seemed to moving to 'personal conscience.' Since blood is an organ, and 'transplanting' blood is clearly displeasing to god, then other organs may be equally displeasing. But, since it's not specifically mentioned, it is your conscience as the guide. Of course, we know why blood transfusion and organ transplants are not mentioned.

Generally, JWs look out for their health. For some reason I can't put my finger on, they seem quite open to quackery. Chiropractors, Homeopathy, MLM crap seem to be popular. If it's an elder's family pushing it, it becomes very popular. Faith Healing is something they don't buy. Masks would be within scope.
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Old 6th July 2020, 04:49 PM   #30
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It's also important to remember that the JWs are very much a minority Christian group (there are about half as many JWs as there are Mormons) and very much not mainstream in their beliefs. There are Christian groups that are further out than they are, but they're pretty way out.
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Old 6th July 2020, 06:46 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
They have given seven dates for The End, the first one being 1873 IIRC. As each date passes, they retcon or say they never set the date (but they did).
The last time I parried with JWs at my door I asked about the multiple adjustment of the End of World date. The senior one said, "We don't make those predictions any more". I have never bothered to research whether that is true.
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Old 6th July 2020, 06:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
The Church of the SubGenius (who have predicted the end of the world being 7am on July 5, 1998 for going on several decades now) were glad to hear the JWs did this, as they weren't going to let the Jehovah's Witnesses out-kook them.
Praise Bob.
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Old 6th July 2020, 08:34 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Next time they come by, ask them how many of them there are, and how many can go to heaven.
Good one! I looked it up.

The answers appear to be about 8,680,000 and precisely 144,000, respectively.

Only 1 in 60 of them is going to make it in.

(Still better odds than for the unbelievers though! )


ETA: Now that I think about it, the above number is only the current number of JWs, and doesn't include those who have already passed away. Given that the religion began in the 1870s, presumably all of the founding members have already passed to the other side. How much room is left in Heaven or is it already full? Surely at least 144,000 devout JWs have already passed. If they all made it in, then it's already full up.
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Old 6th July 2020, 08:48 PM   #34
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It wouldn't matter anyway. Those 144000 are 12000 from each of 12 Jewish "tribes", and almost no JWs are members of one of those.
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Old 6th July 2020, 09:59 PM   #35
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My dad was in some odd fundy cults and rather racist in parts of his life. Later he became part of a black Jewish group because only blacks can truly be Jewish.

Or so they taught. They accepted my rather white dad anyway so who knows.

Logic and reason have no place in religious affairs. The JW types aren't out to fix that.
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Old 6th July 2020, 10:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Logic and reason have no place in religious affairs. The JW types aren't out to fix that.
There are religious organisations that use logic and reason. They just start from a flawed premise - that god exists. If you start from that premise, you can logic and reason your way to a great many conclusions that would not be acceptable to anyone who doesn't start from that premise.
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Old 6th July 2020, 10:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
ETA: Now that I think about it, the above number is only the current number of JWs, and doesn't include those who have already passed away. Given that the religion began in the 1870s, presumably all of the founding members have already passed to the other side. How much room is left in Heaven or is it already full? Surely at least 144,000 devout JWs have already passed. If they all made it in, then it's already full up.
AIUI nobody makes it in until the last judgement, so the living ones have as much chance as any dead JW.

The idea that people who die go straight to heaven or hell is not in Christianity at all, let alone the JW version of it. You stay dead until judgement day, then you rise from your grave and are judged.
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Old 6th July 2020, 10:28 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
AIUI nobody makes it in until the last judgement, so the living ones have as much chance as any dead JW.

The idea that people who die go straight to heaven or hell is not in Christianity at all, let alone the JW version of it. You stay dead until judgement day, then you rise from your grave and are judged.
yeah, which in itself makes it obvious that your chances for heaven in the JWs is effectively nil: if you are competing against the piousness of all past and future Christians you better lead a 100% blameless life and die martyred for protecting a million babies.
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Old 6th July 2020, 10:40 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
AIUI nobody makes it in until the last judgement, so the living ones have as much chance as any dead JW.

The idea that people who die go straight to heaven or hell is not in Christianity at all, let alone the JW version of it. You stay dead until judgement day, then you rise from your grave and are judged.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yeah, which in itself makes it obvious that your chances for heaven in the JWs is effectively nil: if you are competing against the piousness of all past and future Christians you better lead a 100% blameless life and die martyred for protecting a million babies.
There is a consolation prize for the other faithful though. They don't get to go to heaven but they do get some kind of "paradise on earth". I figured they must have some kind of solution to this inconvenient arithmetic problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehova...39;great_crowd'

Quote:
Watch Tower Society literature states that Jesus' use of the term "other sheep" in John 10:16 was intended to indicate that the majority of his followers were not part of the 144,000 and would have an earthly, rather than heavenly, hope.[22][23] In the resurrection, those who died faithful to God are included in the 'other sheep' and will receive the "resurrection of the righteous" ("just" KJV) mentioned in Acts 24:15.[24] Those who died without faithfully serving God will receive the "resurrection of the… unrighteous" ("unjust" KJV). They will be given an opportunity to gain God's favor and join Jesus' 'other sheep' and live forever in an earthly paradise.[25][26] Individuals unfavorably judged by God are not resurrected, and are said to be in Gehenna, which they consider to be a metaphor for eternal destruction.[27] Those of the 'other sheep' who are alive today, some of whom survive through Armageddon without needing a resurrection, are referred to as the 'great crowd'.[28][29]
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:05 AM   #40
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Also, as I understand it, they have to be male, and virgin [or undefiled by women].
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