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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 31st January 2020, 02:22 PM   #1681
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I always like to remember the original www.ianpaisley.org site before his death and the whitewashing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160102...anpaisley.org/

He was a mainstream UK politician who reached the highest office in NI.

A fearless fighter against the dreaded Catholics was Paisley. Boy he threw himself into a sermon!
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Old 31st January 2020, 02:55 PM   #1682
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He was a ****

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
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Old 31st January 2020, 03:02 PM   #1683
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Well that was succinct Filippo!

Mind you, on the positive side, he provided good fodder for jokes.
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:35 PM   #1684
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
That is one thing I find interesting about the bible. Jesus would have spoken in some local language. This was written down years later, probably from second and third hand sources in Greek and Latin. Then these books got transcribed a few times. This was then translated into English. Chinese whispers anyone? This is the reason why you have four books (Nathew, Mark, Luke and John), all different, but all about the same subject. It is even worse in the old Testament. These books come from many different sources and times. If you read the start of the bible there are two names used for God. Not only that but the stories are repeated. How many animals of each species did Noah take on the ark? What are the 10 commandments? I can give you more than one answer to these and many more questions. And not even started on the different bibles translated into English over different times and used by different churches.
This is indeed interesting stuff.

I believe that the original language was Aramaic and Hebrew.

When the bible was translated from Hebrew into "marketplace Greek" by/during the Septuagint there were difficulties with the translation.

This is where the prophesy: "The messiah will be born from a young woman" became "The messiah will be born from a virgin"

Unfortunately the whole Catholic Church appears to revolve around that mistranslation.

I have also heard that the King James version (IIRC) seems to significantly downplay the roles of various powerful women in the originals. (It seems to me that could be explained by the texts that churches/priest choose to emphasise rather than actual edits).

My apologies to biblical scholars, I only have a layman's grasp of the details...
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Old 1st February 2020, 01:17 PM   #1685
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A prominent Catholic priest regrets the "silly mistake"
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Old 1st February 2020, 02:06 PM   #1686
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
A prominent Catholic priest regrets the "silly mistake"

Yes he made a silly mistake it would seem. However he seems to be reconciled to his fate, as he entertains the notion that there was a reason for his downfall. God was behind it maybe?

Quote:
He agreed it had ruined his career. "It did, yes, but I have to let it go. It was a silly mistake but.. We all make mistakes…. I believe things happen for a reason."

He is now shacked up with a woman.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 02:38 PM   #1687
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The time draws near for Pell's appeal to the high court.

https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/...h-court-appeal


Looking through the detail of the submission by Pell's team, one can see the strategy of trying to damage the credibility of the abused victims testimony, by testing the detail of his recollection.

Having been in the witness stand myself I have seen how this works. By concentration on a witnesses recollection of detail. Detail about stuff that would not be the centre of attention for the witness. The attorney is able to draw a cloud over the reliability of the witnesses testimony about the crucial material.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:32 PM   #1688
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So the conservatives hold sway once again as Francis toes the line....... No nooky for priests.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-...ibacy/11960128

Quote:
Pope Francis has refused to approve the ordination of married men to address an acute shortage of priests in the Amazon, reaffirming the Roman Catholic Church's centuries-old commitment to celibacy among priests.

The decision, one of the most significant of his papacy, saw him sidestepping a fraught issue that has dominated debate in the Catholic Church and even involved retired Pope Benedict XVI.

Remarkable, given the backdrop of decreasing number of priests.
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Old 13th February 2020, 01:39 AM   #1689
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So the conservatives hold sway once again as Francis toes the line....... No nooky for priests.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-...ibacy/11960128




Remarkable, given the backdrop of decreasing number of priests.
This may hasten the downfall of the Church. No priests mean that the organisation gets smaller. However if he had said married men and women can become priests then this could have caused a split in the church.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:31 AM   #1690
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
This may hasten the downfall of the Church. No priests mean that the organisation gets smaller. However if he had said married men and women can become priests then this could have caused a split in the church.
Happened in the CofE.
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Old 16th February 2020, 08:29 AM   #1691
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
This may hasten the downfall of the Church. No priests mean that the organisation gets smaller. However if he had said married men and women can become priests then this could have caused a split in the church.
Or they import priests into the Old/New World churches from the Third.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:02 PM   #1692
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Or they import priests into the Old/New World churches from the Third.
They need to be white priests. Their flock are far too racist to accept a black priest. This has been discussed up thread.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:46 AM   #1693
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So the conservatives hold sway once again as Francis toes the line....... No nooky for priests.
Not true, no priest has gotten in serious trouble with the church for having the odd mistress, it has to be forbidden to make it sexier.
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Old 19th February 2020, 02:04 PM   #1694
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not true, no priest has gotten in serious trouble with the church for having the odd mistress, it has to be forbidden to make it sexier.

What they say and what they do are entirely different.

Of course priests have had mistresses and been knocking up women since the beginning. This hasn't seen the light of day because of a "mums the word" conspiracy and the gullibility of the average Catholic, who will not believe that priests will do these things.

The exposure today, of the dirty doings of priests, is I believe catastrophic for the RCC, far more than for other branches of Christianity. This is because priests have been seen as conduits to God by the faithful. They can give the believer absolution, or God's forgiveness, on his behalf.
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Old 10th March 2020, 04:04 PM   #1695
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So, todays the day or days the High Court of Australia will hear arguments, about the Pell conviction. I hope good judgement prevails and acquittal is not obtained due to some obscure technicality.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-...ralia/12041226


Will Francis finally do the right thing and take away his funny hat and red frock if Pell's conviction stands? Will all his mates give him away or continually show contempt for our legal system?
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Old 11th March 2020, 09:22 PM   #1696
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Just saw on TV that another Oz (Broome) Cardinal has been playing around with his younger flock.

Wonder if this will negatively effect Pell's appeal (hope so).

Link
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:00 AM   #1697
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Just saw on TV that another Oz (Broome) Cardinal has been playing around with his younger flock.

Wonder if this will negatively effect Pell's appeal (hope so).

Link
One thing I do not understand. What caused them to stop abusing children? If they are still in positions of power they should still be abusing children.
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Old 12th March 2020, 08:46 AM   #1698
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing I do not understand. What caused them to stop abusing children? If they are still in positions of power they should still be abusing children.
Presumably the fear and likelihood of being caught has jumped right the way up, they are now denied many of the required circumstances and people are now willing to be public about such abuse.

Let's not forget that it wasn't until (at the earliest) late 1980s that societies started to change in their attitude to abuse and how they dealt with child abuse. It may have been illegal but as a whole societies were happy to sweep it all under the carpet, the damage to victims was not considered, indeed look at that old phrase "kiddie fiddler", it minimises the harm done when for example an adult sexually abuses a 6 month old baby. Also automatic deference to authority has greatly lessened.
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Old 12th March 2020, 09:03 AM   #1699
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The one thing the scandals of the last couple of decades have taught me is that the percentage of men who will sexually abuse children and young people provided they can do so with impunity is disgustingly high. The only thing that's changed, I sadly suspect, is the highlighted.
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Old 12th March 2020, 02:16 PM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The one thing the scandals of the last couple of decades have taught me is that the percentage of men who will sexually abuse children and young people provided they can do so with impunity is disgustingly high. The only thing that's changed, I sadly suspect, is the highlighted.
What percentage is that?
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Old 12th March 2020, 02:36 PM   #1701
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing I do not understand. What caused them to stop abusing children? If they are still in positions of power they should still be abusing children.
That ain't how it works at least in the RCC.

Never heard of the expression that "What goes on tour, stays on tour".

That is how it works. If a given priest buggers a child, he/she/it can rely on the backup of the ENTIRE CHURCH APPARATUS to protect him/her/it.

Surely, one might ask, the hierarchy would be honour bound to report such egregious violations? Of course not. Why would they? They already did such scurrilous acts themselves.

Their action is not to protect the priests caught, it is to try not to be caught themselves.

The motivation is not moral or ethical. It is blatant self preservation.

I have happened upon this IRL since I volunteer upon a support line for ****** up teens and their families.

The RCC line is always "Keep it secret, keep it safe".

**** that. Expose the BS for all to see. Too many child suicides for me to swallow. One is too many.
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Old 12th March 2020, 03:02 PM   #1702
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The one thing the scandals of the last couple of decades have taught me is that the percentage of men who will sexually abuse children and young people provided they can do so with impunity is disgustingly high. The only thing that's changed, I sadly suspect, is the highlighted.

I ponder this question.

It must be a terrible affliction to be a pedophile. I mean a pedophile who has the moral goodness to refrain from molesting children, realising that the fulfilment of his sexual lust, will cause harm to the target of his lust. Such a man may be a relatively modern development.

I can imagine in the past, this realisation that harm would be done the sexual victim, may have been small or non existent. There was little common knowledge of such harm - because it was hidden. Hidden by the victims who were too ashamed or scared to talk about it, and hidden by the establishments because they just didn't want to know. Also talked down as being something of not much consequence, as illustrated by funny terms such as "kiddy fiddlers" being used.

Things are different now. Nobody can claim ignorance of the harmful effects of sexual abuse of children and perhaps, just perhaps, some with pedophile lust will be restrained by their conscience.
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Old 12th March 2020, 03:03 PM   #1703
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Sadly it is not only the RCC.

Back in the 1980s I learned that a group of Anglican lay and priests (about 15 that I know of) would take their "favoured" young person to the Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham for several days and nights, the reason given was so they could take part in the Student's Cross pilgrimage. It was of course a way to abuse these young people. It was perfectly set up for them, a pilgrimage for students, what better excuse to give parents and guardians?

(As a note - these were not paedophiles, their victims were young people aged probably all around 13 to 16.)

I hadn't thought of this for probably 20 years, don't know why it came to mind just now.
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Old 12th March 2020, 09:06 PM   #1704
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sadly it is not only the RCC.

Back in the 1980s I learned that a group of Anglican lay and priests (about 15 that I know of) would take their "favoured" young person to the Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham for several days and nights, the reason given was so they could take part in the Student's Cross pilgrimage. It was of course a way to abuse these young people. It was perfectly set up for them, a pilgrimage for students, what better excuse to give parents and guardians?

(As a note - these were not paedophiles, their victims were young people aged probably all around 13 to 16.)

I hadn't thought of this for probably 20 years, don't know why it came to mind just now.
The priests knew exactly what they were doing. And they knew that their "church" would cover for them.

One cannot sugar coat reality.
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Old 16th March 2020, 08:43 AM   #1705
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I ponder this question.

It must be a terrible affliction to be a pedophile. I mean a pedophile who has the moral goodness to refrain from molesting children, realising that the fulfilment of his sexual lust, will cause harm to the target of his lust. Such a man may be a relatively modern development.
But what percentage of this abuse is done by pedophiles ie victims before puberty, and what percentage is of post pubescent minors? Also society used to be more tolerant of middle aged men banging under 16 year olds, a french author got famous for writing about his exploits with high school kids.

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/g...oo-1203459487/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51133850
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Old 1st April 2020, 03:34 PM   #1706
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So as we await the results of the pondering of the members of the High Court, another two alleged victims of Pell have come out in the open.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...ation/12109952


Quote:
For decades, 53-year-old Bernie* kept the secrets of his childhood deeply buried.
As a boy growing up in a Ballarat orphanage in the 1970s, Bernie told the ABC's Revelation program that he was abused on multiple occasions by George Pell, then a priest in the diocese of Ballarat.
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Old 4th April 2020, 12:21 AM   #1707
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Here's the thread you're looking for: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...321082&page=11
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Old 5th April 2020, 09:42 PM   #1708
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Originally Posted by The Nimble Pianist View Post
Here's the thread you're looking for: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...321082&page=11
There's always been a certain amount of crossover between that thread and this.
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Old 6th April 2020, 06:10 PM   #1709
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I am in a state of shock:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...tions/12048726


What a slap in the face for all those courageous victims who tried to get justice.
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Old 7th April 2020, 02:13 AM   #1710
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TBH, while I don't condone either, I think there are degrees of evil, and some acts are more evil than others. Which is to say I find what some priests did even worse than what Matzneff did.

Matzneff did prey upon inexperienced teenagers, but the priests did so from a position of authority, which I find worse. Doubly so when it was in orphanages and such.

Thing is, there is no pressure to spread the legs for some famous writer. He can use his experience to outwit a 14 year old, and that's evil enough, but he doesn't have any extra leverage. He can't basically FORCE you to accept.

Things are a lot different when the predator is in a position of authority over you. Even in a position of moral authority like the guy telling you that you go to hell if he doesn't forgive your sins. (Literally in RCC doctrine there are thought crimes for which only a priest can get you off the hook.) But doubly so when we're talking orphanages, where you literally depend on that guy and he's in real position to make your life miserable if he wants to. There is a very real pressure and/or incentive to accept stuff that you wouldn't from a guy who's just some famous writer, but otherwise still just a guy.

Edit: ADDITIONALLY, I'd point out that you can simply not talk to a guy like Matzneff in the first place. If there's some adult trying to chat you up after school, there is no real pressure to not tell him to *ahem* go forth and multiply, just not in those exact words. And it's not like he starts with knowledge of what you're insecure about and in what ways you're vulnerable, unless you decide to tell him for no obvious reason. With a priest you're told you HAVE to go tell him all your troubles and insecurities. Even your "sinful" THOUGHTS according to RCC doctrine. So basically you're told to go give him all the ammo he could ever need to take advantage of you, if he wants to.

Again, I'm not excusing either, and I'm not blaming the victims of either, but there's evil and then there's even worse evil. Is all I'm saying.
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Old 30th April 2020, 03:30 PM   #1711
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Pell is back in the news again now his conviction has been quashed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...eased/11699188

Quote:
By the end of the exhaustive inquiry in 2017, the counsel assisting the royal commission submitted Cardinal Pell did come to know of abuse carried out by one notorious paedophile priest and had missed an opportunity to deal with another priest also suspected of molestation.
But the commissioners' ultimate findings into what Pell may — or may not have — known has never been made public.
By the time the final report was published in December 2017, the Cardinal himself was facing child sexual abuse charges.
The findings into what were called case studies 28 (Ballarat) and 35 (Melbourne) were heavily redacted so as not to prejudice Cardinal Pell's case.

How many can remember the gasps of incredulity coming from the audience when Pell gave his evidence in Rome a few years ago.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:54 PM   #1712
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As was posted on the other thread in "trials and errors", things are not looking good for Pell once again, as the royal commission releases its findings.

I bet Francis is just hoping it would go away.

Now we have maverick priests insisting on putting Jesus on the tongues of worshipers rather than bagging them for take-away to offset the corona threat. No end of woes pilling up for the RCC.
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Old 16th June 2020, 06:07 PM   #1713
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Once again the RCC shows its true colours putting its own interests above those of its constituents.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-...-back/12359600


Quote:
The Catholic Church has asked some priests receiving JobKeeper to donate almost half of the payment back to the organisation.

……….

One senior Catholic Church employee, who asked to remain anonymous out of fear of retribution, described the church's request to the clergy as "immoral".

Trouble in the ranks it seems.
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Old 5th July 2020, 10:27 PM   #1714
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I would say it is. Churches cost hundreds of millions to repair after 50 years, there is no way they'll be able to keep up legacy cathedrals in major cities that they need.

While the church as a large footprint, it will struggle with keeping an audience. I say this as an RC. Schools in wealthy areas of suburban north east will close as science overtakes religious philosophy studies.
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Old 6th July 2020, 03:01 PM   #1715
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Originally Posted by mattobrien85 View Post
I would say it is. Churches cost hundreds of millions to repair after 50 years, there is no way they'll be able to keep up legacy cathedrals in major cities that they need.

While the church as a large footprint, it will struggle with keeping an audience. I say this as an RC. Schools in wealthy areas of suburban north east will close as science overtakes religious philosophy studies.

Hi mattobrien and welcome to the forum.

Am I reading your post correctly? You are a Roman Catholic?

If so you are doubly welcome, because we often like to get responses from folk on the inside about matters religious. We once had a guy who called himself "The Big Dog" who was an RC, but continually frustrated us with his evasive answers.
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Old 7th July 2020, 07:09 AM   #1716
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hi mattobrien and welcome to the forum.

Am I reading your post correctly? You are a Roman Catholic?

If so you are doubly welcome, because we often like to get responses from folk on the inside about matters religious.
Hey, I was Catholic growing up through more than 40 years. I have since left (now attend ELCA Lutheran)

But I still want to respond to mattobrien's sentiment by reiterating a comment I made early on. When I took my Religions of the World course in college more than 30 years ago. this same question came up, how long can the RCC survive? And there were those who were saying, oh, it can't last much longer, and in 30 years, there will be nothing left. I was like, nah, you underestimate it.

Here we are, 30 years later, and still asking the question, is the church in a freefall? With the same claims that it can't survive, etc. I say it again, nah.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:36 PM   #1717
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Hey, I was Catholic growing up through more than 40 years. I have since left (now attend ELCA Lutheran)

But I still want to respond to mattobrien's sentiment by reiterating a comment I made early on. When I took my Religions of the World course in college more than 30 years ago. this same question came up, how long can the RCC survive? And there were those who were saying, oh, it can't last much longer, and in 30 years, there will be nothing left. I was like, nah, you underestimate it.

Here we are, 30 years later, and still asking the question, is the church in a freefall? With the same claims that it can't survive, etc. I say it again, nah.

Well 30 years isn't long though is it, and yet RCC attendances have dropped dramatically in the West in that time. Mind you the Lutherans haven't done that well either.

The RCC have done well in recruiting in developing countries however. They have this knack of absorbing local bits of woo, to make the package more palatable for those being recruited.
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Old 8th July 2020, 01:32 PM   #1718
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well 30 years isn't long though is it,
I agree, which is why I was one saying in 1988 that, no, the RCC isn't going to be dead in 30 years. But that is what the others (who had very little direct experience with the church) were saying. Now, it was probably a combination of no experience with the RCC and overjealousness of 20 year olds, but that's what it was.



Quote:
and yet RCC attendances have dropped dramatically in the West in that time. Mind you the Lutherans haven't done that well either.

The RCC have done well in recruiting in developing countries however. They have this knack of absorbing local bits of woo, to make the package more palatable for those being recruited.
And that is another question. The question of whether the RCC is in a freefall will also depend on the location. It's certainly falling in some countries, and may even be in a freefall in places. But there are spots where it is moving in an growing. Perhaps the better question is, WHERE is the RCC in freefall?
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Old 8th July 2020, 01:43 PM   #1719
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I agree, which is why I was one saying in 1988 that, no, the RCC isn't going to be dead in 30 years. But that is what the others (who had very little direct experience with the church) were saying. Now, it was probably a combination of no experience with the RCC and overjealousness of 20 year olds, but that's what it was.





And that is another question. The question of whether the RCC is in a freefall will also depend on the location. It's certainly falling in some countries, and may even be in a freefall in places. But there are spots where it is moving in an growing. Perhaps the better question is, WHERE is the RCC in freefall?

Ireland, not just in free fall but hit the ground at terminal velocity!
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Old 8th July 2020, 01:59 PM   #1720
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Ireland, not just in free fall but hit the ground at terminal velocity!
Correct. I have been quite astonished watching it unfold.

Most intriguing has been the RCC tone deaf response.
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