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Old 13th July 2019, 04:04 PM   #1
winter salt
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Is God condemned to be a pacifier forever by science, ontology, logic etc.?

Is the source/common ancestor of all faith in God/Gods (I mean mostly in the sense of the so-called abrahamic religions' all-seer, all- knower type) to be identified as the primitive man's ignorance in front of his world; and the existence of even one (or more) free-of-all-religions type therefore never to be entertained by critical thinkers and rejecters of the supernatural agents ?

I've lived the majority of my 48 years as a believer in the "all-mighty" (the allah version), and have been rightly blaming that faith (actually only what's built around it, not itself, and there stems my question from) for causing losses in multiple areas of my life, and after a long process I was able to ditch it and have been trying to recover from some of the losses. This recovery process somewhat kept me busy with by-now-attained goals (minus a familie) and I'm facing a potential long life that leaves me with still a lot of time to think about existential questions, (without worrying about global warming or WW3). But I submitted to the "fact" that it won't produce any satisfactory answer.

I see not much fun or purpose in life without the existence of an overseer of everything just like religious people do.
Especially in the conditions I've found myself at the moment, even a non-communicative 'invisible friend' gains a great value and this reduces my desire to upset religious people or even the deistic believers wherever I may be debating them. (Mostly in you tube comments).

I only miss this part of faith (an overseer of everything, even without intervention or afterlife) that I am not capable of getting back since the damages I got from what it facilitated i.e. religion, keeps my radar for superstition hyperactive.

Some years ago I bought the "Meditations" of Marcus Aurelius for only one reason: the last paragraph of it. When I saw it at the book store, as I often do looked at the last page and it struck me at the time.

Here's what it says :

"Mortal man, you have lived as a citizen in this great city. What matter if that life is five or fifty years? The laws of the city apply equally to all. So what is there to fear in your dismissal from the city? This is no tyrant or corrupt judge who dismisses you, but the very same nature that brought you in. It is like the officer who engaged a comic actor dismissing him from the stage. 'But I have not played my five acts, only three.' 'True, but in life three acts can be the whole play.' Completion is determined by that being who caused first your composition and now your dissolution. You have no part in either causation. Go then in peace: the god who lets you go is at peace with you."

Despite his dissociation from the known major religious doctrines, and despite his vagueness about his God, I still think his idea of God as a causal and overseer agent is coming from the Nile of primitive man's ignorance in front of his entire world.

Is there another way to think?
Is there any scientific or logical road block in the way to a faith in an intelligent agency for existence.
Or is it forever doomed to remain a mere pacifier that I can not put in my lips again ?

Last edited by winter salt; 13th July 2019 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Replaced possible with "potential" ..long life..
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:10 PM   #2
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Parse fail.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:19 PM   #3
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This word salad needs some dressing, and maybe some croutons.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:19 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Parse fail.
Yeah. I can't make out what the question might be.

ETA: Or even if there is one.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:24 PM   #5
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There's no question and little point, it's a bog standard "Without a giant invisible sky wizard what's the point of life" ramble.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:34 PM   #6
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OK, buried in the wall of text is this...

Quote:
I see not much fun or purpose in life without the existence of an overseer of everything just like religious people do.
This is a fairly common question from theists and the recently deconverted. "How can my life have meaning without a god?"

This question has been variously addressed right in this forum to the point that it is a stupid question.

I could expand on that, but I will await the OP clarifying what he actually meant as opposed to my guess.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:37 PM   #7
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If you a Theist, you can't give your life purpose, only God can.
That is the entire point.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:57 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Is the source/common ancestor of all faith in God/Gods (I mean mostly in the sense of the so-called abrahamic religions' all-seer, all- knower type) to be identified as the primitive man's ignorance in front of his world; and the existence of even one (or more) free-of-all-religions type therefore never to be entertained by critical thinkers and rejecters of the supernatural agents ?

I've lived the majority of my 48 years as a believer in the "all-mighty" (the allah version), and have been rightly blaming that faith (actually only what's built around it, not itself, and there stems my question from) for causing losses in multiple areas of my life, and after a long process I was able to ditch it and have been trying to recover from some of the losses. This recovery process somewhat kept me busy with by-now-attained goals (minus a familie) and I'm facing a potential long life that leaves me with still a lot of time to think about existential questions, (without worrying about global warming or WW3). But I submitted to the "fact" that it won't produce any satisfactory answer.

I see not much fun or purpose in life without the existence of an overseer of everything just like religious people do.
Especially in the conditions I've found myself at the moment, even a non-communicative 'invisible friend' gains a great value and this reduces my desire to upset religious people or even the deistic believers wherever I may be debating them. (Mostly in you tube comments).

I only miss this part of faith (an overseer of everything, even without intervention or afterlife) that I am not capable of getting back since the damages I got from what it facilitated i.e. religion, keeps my radar for superstition hyperactive.

Some years ago I bought the "Meditations" of Marcus Aurelius for only one reason: the last paragraph of it. When I saw it at the book store, as I often do looked at the last page and it struck me at the time.

Here's what it says :

"Mortal man, you have lived as a citizen in this great city. What matter if that life is five or fifty years? The laws of the city apply equally to all. So what is there to fear in your dismissal from the city? This is no tyrant or corrupt judge who dismisses you, but the very same nature that brought you in. It is like the officer who engaged a comic actor dismissing him from the stage. 'But I have not played my five acts, only three.' 'True, but in life three acts can be the whole play.' Completion is determined by that being who caused first your composition and now your dissolution. You have no part in either causation. Go then in peace: the god who lets you go is at peace with you."

Despite his dissociation from the known major religious doctrines, and despite his vagueness about his God, I still think his idea of God as a causal and overseer agent is coming from the Nile of primitive man's ignorance in front of his entire world.

Is there another way to think?
Is there any scientific or logical road block in the way to a faith in an intelligent agency for existence.
Or is it forever doomed to remain a mere pacifier that I can not put in my lips again ?
Perhaps I don't see those verses as you do. Aurelius is telling us to live the life we have to the fullest and not fret our mortality. How long we live is not up to us.

That Aurelius cites God is almost irrelevant. He had no scientific knowledge and lived in polytheistic Rome.
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Parse fail.
I was on pain killers when I wrote this. Usually I'm more careful.
I noticed mistakes with my usage of English. I learned English in my 30s. Still studying.
I'll be more careful next time.

Last edited by winter salt; 14th July 2019 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 14th July 2019, 07:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Perhaps I don't see those verses as you do. Aurelius is telling us to live the life we have to the fullest and not fret our mortality. How long we live is not up to us.

That Aurelius cites God is almost irrelevant. He had no scientific knowledge and lived in polytheistic Rome.
I was focused on the part where he was suggesting the existence of an owner of the show (someone more lasting than humans who could evaluate your accomplishments or failures). And it feells better for me than not being the case.
But I learned that feelings are not reasons to believe something to be the case.
I was just trying to state this. Yea I realized that theists would get credit from a statement of a feeling like mine, thinking atheists suffer because of lack of faith. Am I not gonna state it to not make them happy ? I probably started responding to others in this post.
But as for mortality, that is not what I fret.
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Old 14th July 2019, 07:27 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
OK, buried in the wall of text is this...



This is a fairly common question from theists and the recently deconverted. "How can my life have meaning without a god?"

This question has been variously addressed right in this forum to the point that it is a stupid question.

I could expand on that, but I will await the OP clarifying what he actually meant as opposed to my guess.

Pretty much that's the point. But so much other text was there for a reason. I tried to distinguish my saying from the arrogant theistic arguments for their doctrines. I'm not saying without belief there's no meaning of life, therefore come to my version of God etc.

I have no faith. And the feelings I have about living is no reason enough to have or adapt one. I believe God idea comes from the ignorance of primitive men. But is that also reason enough to disregard it completely ?
Is there a scientific reason to disregard all faiths in supernatural agency? Like I understand that evolution destroyed biblical and quranical gods, but it doesn't make another kind of a faith in a god impossible..

Last edited by winter salt; 14th July 2019 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 14th July 2019, 07:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
I was focused on the part where he was suggesting the existence of an owner of the show (someone more lasting than humans who could evaluate your accomplishments or failures). And it feells better for me than not being the case.
But I learned that feelings are not reasons to believe something to be the case.
I was just trying to state this. Yea I realized that theists would get credit from a statement of a feeling like mine, thinking atheists suffer because of lack of faith. Am I not gonna state it to not make them happy ? I probably started responding to others in this post.
But as for mortality, that is not what I fret.
I think you're focused on the irrelevant. As I said before. This was polytheistic Rome. There wasn't one God, but dozens. Gods were created to explain everything. It's not surprising that Aurelius referenced an owner of the show. What Aurelius knows is man is not it.

The quote reminds me of this one from Shakespeare's As you Like It.

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages."

BTW, I think Meditations is a great book.
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Old 14th July 2019, 08:11 PM   #13
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Zeus died when the last believer died. His tomb is called mythology. The current god is all gods or just the one correct one and the rest false. So say the believers.

Nonbelievers say he is myth. But a powerful one with the sheer numbers of those who still worship. God never gave you anything you didn't put your own efforts into.
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Old 14th July 2019, 08:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Zeus died when the last believer died. His tomb is called mythology. The current god is all gods or just the one correct one and the rest false. So say the believers.

Nonbelievers say he is myth. But a powerful one with the sheer numbers of those who still worship. God never gave you anything you didn't put your own efforts into.
What makes you think Zeus is dead then?
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Old 14th July 2019, 08:19 PM   #15
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Nobody still worships a Roman Zeus.
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Old 14th July 2019, 08:22 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Nobody still worships a Roman Zeus.
Not according to Sam Harris. He said something similar about Zeus and says he gets letters from people who do.
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Old 14th July 2019, 08:25 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What makes you think Zeus is dead then?
There are people who at least claim to still worship Zeus.
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Old 14th July 2019, 09:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Last time I was in Crete (mid 1980s) there were still quite a number of the older generation at that time who worshipped the Greek Gods (especially Zeus, Amalthea and Rhea)

I'm not sure how much that extends to the modern day
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Old 14th July 2019, 09:14 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Last time I was in Crete (mid 1980s) there were still quite a number of the older generation at that time who worshipped the Greek Gods (especially Zeus, Amalthea and Rhea)

I'm not sure how much that extends to the modern day
It's been a legally recognised religion in Greece since 2017.
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Old 14th July 2019, 09:31 PM   #20
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Zeus of 2017 is not the same Zeus of the 1st century ( or earlier ) believers. He had to update to meet modern believers.

Humans change up their gods to modern needs without even planning it.

And it is interesting it became an official religion, very interesting.

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Old 14th July 2019, 09:37 PM   #21
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The Jesus of C1st isn't the same Jesus as the Jesus of today, either.

There's also a Norse reconstructionist movement, but that's a fair bit more problematic as the Norse religion included blood sacrifice, which they... can't really do any more.
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Old 14th July 2019, 10:02 PM   #22
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Cool

I just wanna point here that I hope that everybody understood that I misspelled pacifier as "passifier" throughout the thread..
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Old 14th July 2019, 10:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Zeus died when the last believer died. His tomb is called mythology. The current god is all gods or just the one correct one and the rest false. So say the believers.

Nonbelievers say he is myth. But a powerful one with the sheer numbers of those who still worship. God never gave you anything you didn't put your own efforts into.

Is there a scientific or some other type of evidence that Zeus doesn't exist ?
Like the theory of evolution destroying the biblical and quranical gods..

Do you have any material against the faith in Zeus because of which you can criticize a believer parent for indoctrinating their kids with that faith, other than teaching them to accept things without evidence ? (I don't know anything about Zeus though, if I have to, I'll make up a description of a god for the sake of this debate).

Last edited by winter salt; 14th July 2019 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 14th July 2019, 10:12 PM   #24
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I have this book in my shelf waiting its turn to be read.
I'd like to know if anyone read it and if it could have answers to my questions.

"God in the Age of Science?"
A Critique of Religious Reason

by Herman Philipse
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Old 14th July 2019, 10:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Is there a scientific or some other type of evidence that Zeus doesn't exist ?
Like the theory of evolution destroying the biblical and quranical gods..

Do you have any material against the faith in Zeus because of which you can criticize a believer parent for indoctrinating their kids with that faith ? (I don't know anything about Zeus though, if I have to, I'll make up a description of a god for the sake of this debate).
Gods are human creations. No proof of gods without believers trying to make natural events fit. Events that have other simple explanations.
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Old 14th July 2019, 11:08 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Is there a scientific or some other type of evidence that Zeus doesn't exist ?
What sort of evidence could possibly exist of something's nonexistence?

Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Like the theory of evolution destroying the biblical and quranical gods..
That's not how that works. Evolution doesn't disprove (or "destroy") anything. It merely describes how populations of organisms change over time.

Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Do you have any material against the faith in Zeus because of which you can criticize a believer parent for indoctrinating their kids with that faith, other than teaching them to accept things without evidence ? (I don't know anything about Zeus though, if I have to, I'll make up a description of a god for the sake of this debate).
Various people have made various arguments against religion, but none of that constitutes evidence that gods don't exist.
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Old 14th July 2019, 11:10 PM   #27
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Rick Riordan single-handedly resurrected all the Greek/Roman and Egyptian Gods.
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Old 14th July 2019, 11:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Pretty much that's the point. But so much other text was there for a reason. I tried to distinguish my saying from the arrogant theistic arguments for their doctrines. I'm not saying without belief there's no meaning of life, therefore come to my version of God etc.

I have no faith. And the feelings I have about living is no reason enough to have or adapt one. I believe God idea comes from the ignorance of primitive men. But is that also reason enough to disregard it completely ?
Is there a scientific reason to disregard all faiths in supernatural agency? Like I understand that evolution destroyed biblical and quranical gods, but it doesn't make another kind of a faith in a god impossible..
I have family who I love. I have children who I adore. What need have I for a deity to somehow make that "meaningful"? None. Why would belief in some deity make that more special?

I own my own home and am unencumbered by any debt. How did that happen? I did that. Not some holy spook hiding behind the curtain.

I have sufficient income that I can choose to work or not as the mood takes me. I achieved that. Not any borked god.

I donate monthly to charities by standing order because I have the ability to do so.

I have neither the need nor desire to believe in some "god" to provide "meaning", whatever that means.

Don't expect me to accept the notion that a "god" would weirdly make all of it more meaningful. That would be idiotic.

I provide my own meaning and you should too.
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Old 15th July 2019, 02:59 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's not how that works. Evolution doesn't disprove (or "destroy") anything. It merely describes how populations of organisms change over time.
Maybe my wording was not accurate for what I meant.

If I still were a believer in the quranical god I'd certainly see the theory of evolution destroying it (although it has nothing to do with religion) because evolution is not his way of having created every living being in "his" message, this would be enough to disbelieve that god.

I guess I'm asking if there would be any such scientific or logical evidence that would render any god concept fathomed by a deist debunked.

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Old 15th July 2019, 03:17 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I have family who I love. I have children who I adore. What need have I for a deity to somehow make that "meaningful"? None. Why would belief in some deity make that more special?

I own my own home and am unencumbered by any debt. How did that happen? I did that. Not some holy spook hiding behind the curtain.

I have sufficient income that I can choose to work or not as the mood takes me. I achieved that. Not any borked god.

I donate monthly to charities by standing order because I have the ability to do so.

I have neither the need nor desire to believe in some "god" to provide "meaning", whatever that means.

Don't expect me to accept the notion that a "god" would weirdly make all of it more meaningful. That would be idiotic.

I provide my own meaning and you should too.
If you had none of the items that you stated above despite your atmost efforts, and you were in an incurable pain, physical or psychological; or all you have were not exciting you anymore for whatever reason; basically you lost all your enthusiasm for wherever reason (for example for seeing others' suffering around the world) would you try to stay in life until natural causes end it or would you just say 'I see no more reason for suffering' and check out?

What if I also personally have what I need in life to be comfortable but my "over sensitive" conscience, or feeling of empathy is making me miserable ? Where is my meaning of life now ? I'm talking about the meaning of life in general, for everybody, even for ant colonies; not just for a particular individual.
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Old 15th July 2019, 04:07 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
I'm talking about the meaning of life in general, for everybody, even for ant colonies; not just for a particular individual.
but you are not, are you?

you are talking about the meaning a God gives to life, not the meaning something living has on its own.
If the meaning of life depends on the presence of a deity it has no intrinsic meaning.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:30 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Jesus of C1st isn't the same Jesus as the Jesus of today, either.

There's also a Norse reconstructionist movement, but that's a fair bit more problematic as the Norse religion included blood sacrifice, which they... can't really do any more.
So did the God of Abraham. I'm just saying.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
but you are not, are you?

you are talking about the meaning a God gives to life, not the meaning something living has on its own.
If the meaning of life depends on the presence of a deity it has no intrinsic meaning.
I guess I agree with this..

I'm gonna try this :

I'm very pessimistic about the food chain system of the living beings.
If a deity had set this up he can't even in my mind make it right afterwards.

Let's say a murder has been committed.
The victim's family need closing of the event by the capture of the murderer.
If they were told that scientifically and logically there remained no possibility of ever identifying the murderer let alone capturing him/her.

Then someone else tells them that that's not true, but the means to identify him is two generations away. So if you have descendants who know about this crime in two generations, they will know who did it. Even though justice may not be possible at that time..

If you were a kin of the victim which one of these scenarios would increase the meaning of your life and help you cope with the loss?

But my main question is not really about the meaning, it's about the impossibility of the existence of a deity of any description.

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Old 15th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Is there a scientific or some other type of evidence that Zeus doesn't exist ?
Like the theory of evolution destroying the biblical and quranical gods..

Do you have any material against the faith in Zeus because of which you can criticize a believer parent for indoctrinating their kids with that faith, other than teaching them to accept things without evidence ? (I don't know anything about Zeus though, if I have to, I'll make up a description of a god for the sake of this debate).
Of course that's not how existential claims work. We don't assume everything is true until it is disproven.

Otherwise we'd all believe in Vishnu, Wotan, the monkey god Hanuman, Spiderman, the Easter Bunny, Baby Jesus and Allah.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Is there a scientific or some other type of evidence that Zeus doesn't exist ?
Like the theory of evolution destroying the biblical and quranical gods..

Do you have any material against the faith in Zeus because of which you can criticize a believer parent for indoctrinating their kids with that faith, other than teaching them to accept things without evidence ? (I don't know anything about Zeus though, if I have to, I'll make up a description of a god for the sake of this debate).
Yes.

There is no palace on Mt Olympus.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:39 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What sort of evidence could possibly exist of something's nonexistence?
Well you see God's different because of special pleading about some special pleading that specially pleads away some more special pleading I haven't even specially pled yet. Therefore God.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:41 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What sort of evidence could possibly exist of something's nonexistence?



That's not how that works. Evolution doesn't disprove (or "destroy") anything. It merely describes how populations of organisms change over time.



Various people have made various arguments against religion, but none of that constitutes evidence that gods don't exist.
Easy. We cant find his palace in Mt Olympus, we have pictures of Mt Okympus down to the 1m scale, there is no palace in those photos. Therefore we know the Zeus that the Greeks etc. believed in does not exist.

Note his palace was not mean to be invisible or in some way inaccessible to humans. It was what the Greeks considered a palace to be.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:43 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Easy. We cant find his palace in Mt Olympus, we have pictures of Mt Okympus down to the 1m scale, there is no palace in those photos. Therefore we know the Zeus that the Greeks etc. believed in does not exist.

Note his palace was not mean to be invisible or in some way inaccessible to humans. It was what the Greeks considered a palace to be.
I will literally never be ceased to be tickled by the fact that the Greeks literally thought their Gods lived on a nearby, easily climbable mountain but never thought to like... go check.

But that's exactly why modern God is intentionally and by design poorly defined, so he can always be the infinite God of variable vagueness, ready to plug into whatever equation needed.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:53 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
If you had none of the items that you stated above despite your atmost efforts, and you were in an incurable pain, physical or psychological; or all you have were not exciting you anymore for whatever reason; basically you lost all your enthusiasm for wherever reason (for example for seeing others' suffering around the world) would you try to stay in life until natural causes end it or would you just say 'I see no more reason for suffering' and check out?

What if I also personally have what I need in life to be comfortable but my "over sensitive" conscience, or feeling of empathy is making me miserable ? Where is my meaning of life now ? I'm talking about the meaning of life in general, for everybody, even for ant colonies; not just for a particular individual.
Meaning is what each of us gives to our lives. Not the other way around.

Meaning doesn't come the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Bible, the Vedas, the Tanach,the Sutras or the analects of Confucius. These are books written not by God, but by men.

I don't know about you Winter, but I think there is something wrong and perverse seeking meaning for my life from other men. You wouldn't ask someone else to choose your major for you?
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Old 15th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes.

There is no palace on Mt Olympus.
That's my point.

Pretty much for every known brand of a god there's a discrepancy or some information that goes against it. Kinda disproves it.

No body seems to get what I'm trying to say though.
When I say "any" god idea, I mean of which there hasn't even been a claim or creed about it. Sort of a deistic faith.

Scientifically or logically can you say that someone's personal whatever creative supernatural agent is impossible ?

Is faith in a supernatural (or even nature itself as an intelligent) agent completely impossible, or do we dismiss every such claim because of incoherencies we find in them or just because god idea developed from primitive man's ignorance in the face of natural phenomena ?
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