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Old 13th June 2019, 07:55 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I see people. They're people. What emotion do you expect me to have when seeing people? Pity? Fear?

They're just people.
Wow.
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:18 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, speaking in the broadest terms, of course. But when what's being peddled is literally fear of the Islam, I don't see how it's anything but literal Islamophobia.

Now if someone wants to discuss the relative merits or faults of the Quran, I'm all up for that. But that's not what this ever seems to be about. I hardly ever see the Islam's detractors framing the debate in terms of what the exact sura and verse number say. It's either stuff that the Quran doesn't actually SAY (e.g., Bill Maher's "putting women in beekeper suits") or gross exaggerations of the terror scare (see the supposed hundreds of thousands of deaths in terror attacks every year in this very thread.)
Yet! It was precisely upon taking up that challenge and reading up on the actual teachings that brought me face to face with very sobering reality circa Charlie Hebdo days. Just as political ideology runs the gamut from friendly and debatable democracy to my-way-or-highway violent fascism, no surprise, religion does as well.

Therefore I would counter your observation with the opposite claim, in fact: The debates about Islam on ISF so far -- can't speak to other places -- are best characterized by the complete lack of any sort of research as you suggest. It has not helped to provide links, bibliographies, quotes in context, or anything else. It has proven useless to find and identify policy statements made and signed by both major sects, and most if not all Muslim-majority nations, as indicative of "moderate Islam" and discuss their dangerous reasoning.

So I've mostly moved on, only dropping by threads such as these to stress the legitimacy of the critique of dogma so that debate is not entirely silenced by well-intentioned but deadening political correctness.
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:27 AM   #483
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Some people tend to forget, or just do not know, that Islam has always had at least a violent 'tail' and that ISIS is only the last major incarnation in a long series (in the Middle Ages basically the whole Islamic world was in this category) ; those who expect violence to go away just because 'ISIS is defeated' and 'look how peaceful is my neighbor' (usually in the middle of America) are at least naïve. Secondly we must never forget about sharia and the huge problems it introduces to any important change, the break point between moderation in the western sense and radicalism is not that between being peaceful at the moment and 'Islamic revolution now' stance. We can get drunk as much as we please with words of reassurance but unfortunately at least a bleak future like the one presented by Michael Ley is actually very plausible.

It only suffices to look at the worrying developments of Islam in the last 50 years to understand that there is nothing irrational to fear the Islam of today*; unfortunately the progressive forces in Islam are everywhere extremely weak, firmly in the shadow of the conservatives which dictate the future of this religion. I don't think the methods used so far will work, history shows otherwise, we need something else. Even if nothing bad happens this will definitely not be because of the cultural relativist policies of our days.


* greatly swelling the number of 'hate crimes' against muslims via counting basically all criticism of islam, no matter how rational, cannot change that conclusion (by the way the 'cyber-hate crimes' counted by the so called 'anti-fascist' organizations are by no means few in the total number reported)
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Well first of all - what you are saying is that because you don't personally expect to be the victim of of a terrorist attack, you do not actually care what happens to other people (to the many thousands of others who get slaughtered and horribly injured in the vast number of such attacks that have already taken place and the even greater number of plots that are active at any time) ...

... as for other issues that anyone might think are "much more pressing" than Islamic terrorism - firstly that's a completely different subject and not an argument here at all, ie just because a government & the nations courts have to deal with hundreds of different issues, that has absolutely no bearing on the fact that all democratic governments all over the world totally disagree with your opinion ... they are using "facts" rather that your mere belief or opinion, and they most definitely do treat this as an extremely serious problem which has required absolutely enormous resources from the West just to keep it within any sort of control at all.

The facts are all entirely against you, and all governments and all expert anti-terrorist and security advisors etc. completely disagree with you.

At some point you have to stop believing in un-evidenced conspiracy theories and start admitting that your government and all the various technical, legal and academic authorities are not trying to lie to you or to harm your personal freedoms etc. ... they are trying to deal with a very very serious problem indeed which is presently costing the lives of hundreds of thousands of people ... and just re. that number of deaths - in the London Tube Bombings, apart from 52 killed, there were over 700 injured, and similarly in the Madrid train bombing apart from 193 killed there were also around 2000 people injured … so on that sort of basis, if all around the world we have now had about 300,000 people killed in Islamic terrorist wars and terrorist attacks, then we are probably also talking about well over 1-million people who have been injured (many of them very seriously injured) in these attacks …

… and you don't think that's extremely serious??






Unfortunately, very often in politics, politicians in the West have to deal with foreign governments and individuals that they really do not like. Not many politicians and governmnets in Europe like Donald Trump & his administarion, but we have to try to deal with him and keep dealing with the USA. And yes we do know that politicians in the West are not all saints either. But on the whole they are much better than many of the quite despotic dictatorships (both military & religious) that we have seen in many places around the world.

Before 9-11, the West was dealing with people like Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Gaddafi in Libya, Mugabe in Zimbabwe, and for many decades all sorts of dodgy leaders in Russia & the Soviet Union, and no doubt also dozens of other leaders in dozens of other countries. Western politicians did not like all those people, and they did not like what their regimes were doing … but unfortunately they are (or have been) in power in those countries, and in the end we just have to to make the best of the situation & try to deal with them.
Sorry Ian, thank you for your response, I am not stating my position any more.

Thanks for the fish!
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:49 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
As Dara O'Briain put it, "Well, so ******* what? Zombies are at an all-time low level, but the fear of zombies could be incredibly high. It doesn’t mean you have to have government policies to deal with the fear of zombies."
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Old 13th June 2019, 09:10 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
As Dara O'Briain put it, "Well, so ******* what? Zombies are at an all-time low level, but the fear of zombies could be incredibly high. It doesn’t mean you have to have government policies to deal with the fear of zombies."
If public fear of zombies is incredibly high, then that probably does mean you need a policy to deal with it. The policy doesn't have to deal with actual zombies, of course, but it does have to address public concern - especially if the public fear is causing civil unrest.
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Old 13th June 2019, 09:37 AM   #487
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Except that here we talk about Islam (not zombies) and the total failure of the post WW2 western policies, informed by Academia, regarding it. Appeasing an illusion (western values can be easily adapted to the Islamic world mostly via internal efforts, with little change at the level of theology) leads nowhere, in spite of the existence of some secular muslims. At least this is what History has shown consistently so far, wherever muslims are majority.
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Old 13th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If public fear of zombies is incredibly high, then that probably does mean you need a policy to deal with it. The policy doesn't have to deal with actual zombies, of course, but it does have to address public concern - especially if the public fear is causing civil unrest.
If it only involved hanging a zombie repellent talisman in front of government offices, maybe. Otherwise you have to balance factors like:

- how much will it cost us all

- what kind of powers would we have to give the government, for it to be a credible defense against zombies, and what will THAT cost us in terms of freedoms and so on.

E.g., if you show up with an animal bite at the emergency room, should they now start locking you up to have you under observation for a week to see if you turn into a zombie? I mean, your turning into a zombie and starting biting people is a conceivable event that one could fear. Hell, not even conceivable, it's a classic horror plot twist.

E.g., can the government demand a blood sample before letting you board a cruise ship? Being stuck somewhere cut off from the world when the zombies strike is, after all, a classic horror scenario.

At some point you have to do a cost/benefit analysis, and if the benefit is just imaginary, then maybe the right thing to do is tell those scared of zombies to just grow a set and deal with it.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:10 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
Except that here we talk about Islam (not zombies) and the total failure of the post WW2 western policies, informed by Academia, regarding it. Appeasing an illusion (western values can be easily adapted to the Islamic world mostly via internal efforts, with little change at the level of theology) leads nowhere, in spite of the existence of some secular muslims. At least this is what History has shown consistently so far, wherever muslims are majority.
That is a more complex topic, indeed, but that's not where I was going with the zombie metaphor. I was strictly talking about the terrorism scare, which IanS has been blowing out of any proportion in this thread.

I will repeat the official data from the EU government site: in 2017 there were 33 religion-motivated attacks (including those AGAINST Muslims), causing 62 deaths. The EU has a population of over 740 million. That means that your chance of dying in a terror attack in 2017 were less than 1 in TWELVE MILLION.

By way comparison, the lowest murder rates in the EU have been in Austria (0.51 intentional homicide victim per 100 000 inhabitants), the Netherlands (0.62), Spain (0.65), the Czech Republic (0.75) and Italy (0.77). Sourcce: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/pr...EDN-20180222-1

At the scale of the whole EU, though, we're talking about closer to 1 per 100,000 inhabitants, give or take. So the risk to die in any kind of religion-motivated attack is literally somewhere less than 1% of it. If you're going to be murdered in any given year, chances are about 120 to 1 that it won't be religion related. And actually it's even less likely than that, that it will be in the name of specifically the Islam.

At that point wanting any special policies to deal with the muslim scare, is, yes, akin to wanting the government to do something about the fear of zombies.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:33 AM   #490
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Or to put it in another perspective, the risk to die in a road accident in the EU is about 1 in 29,000 in a given year. That doesn't include train crashes, airplane crashes, ship sinking, etc. Just road vehicles. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_...ta/asr2018.pdf

But the same people who have no problem driving a car to work, find the 1 in 12,000,000 chance to die in a religious motivated attack oh such a horrible scare...
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Old 13th June 2019, 12:53 PM   #491
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This entire post is a clown car of misunderstanding:
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If it only involved hanging a zombie repellent talisman in front of government offices, maybe. Otherwise you have to balance factors like:

- how much will it cost us all

- what kind of powers would we have to give the government, for it to be a credible defense against zombies, and what will THAT cost us in terms of freedoms and so on.

E.g., if you show up with an animal bite at the emergency room, should they now start locking you up to have you under observation for a week to see if you turn into a zombie? I mean, your turning into a zombie and starting biting people is a conceivable event that one could fear. Hell, not even conceivable, it's a classic horror plot twist.

E.g., can the government demand a blood sample before letting you board a cruise ship? Being stuck somewhere cut off from the world when the zombies strike is, after all, a classic horror scenario.

At some point you have to do a cost/benefit analysis, and if the benefit is just imaginary, then maybe the right thing to do is tell those scared of zombies to just grow a set and deal with it.
You don't treat the zombies as real. You treat the civil unrest as real.

You don't address public fears about contagious homosexuality by sending out reassuring pamphlets explaining how to avoid "catching the gay". You start a public service campaign focusing on education and tolerance.

You don't just ignore civil unrest over zombies because zombies aren't real.
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Old 13th June 2019, 01:22 PM   #492
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Oh, we can most certainly agree on THAT. But that's a whole other thing than the point that I, or for that matter Dara O'Briain, were trying to make. The point was precisely that you don't treat a (mostly) imaginary danger as real just because some people are afraid of it. Fear of zombies doesn't make zombies a real threat that the government has to deal with. But I suppose I didn't explain it very well, then.
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Old 13th June 2019, 01:42 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh yes, the media was very careful about how they framed the war. I'm not talking about the media. I'm talking about Joe the Plumber.

No, I'm not American.

OK, well I have no idea who "Joe the Plumber" is. But if you are not living in the USA (or not at the time of 9-11), then in which country were you reading newspapers that quickly said this was a religious Islamic attack and that the response was declared by the government to be a war on Islam?

Because (to repeat), that was certainly never said in the UK.

As I say – in the UK they did the absolute opposite of that, even to the extent of spending years and thousands of printed newspaper articles & reports on the BBC etc. where they openly lied by omission in refusing any suggestion at all that the terrorists attacks were being motivated by religious beliefs taken from the Koran and the Hadith's.

… and that deceit went of for years until it finally became absurd to keep up the pretence of saying that the attacks (which by then had become numerous and totally lethal in the UK as well as in France and Spain and elswhere) were not being motivated by extremist Islamic religious beliefs.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:07 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And the white colonialists said similar things about the Africans too. That doesn't mean they didn't try to destroy a rich culture and lifestyle in favour of what they perceived were better conditions.

No, but it's irrelevant to the thread since you made it specifically about Islam.

No, the English Language did.

I think I have made myself quite clear about my feelings for the religiously afflicted. You, on the other hand, can't find any evidence to refute what I have said, so just play around with meanings of words and referring to "language of colonialism" and such. A bit of self examination regarding personal motive for doing this may be appropriate.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
@ arthwollipot,

Just yesterday, in the local shopping centre, I saw a woman wearing a full Niqab. I have seen this just a few times before, although the much less imposing Hijab or the like is quite common. I cannot recall ever seeing a full Burka worn in Australia.

Now you must come across this down there in Canberra I imagine. How do you feel when you see a woman dressed in a Niqab, and peering out through that slit. Does it stir any emotions in you?
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I see people. They're people. What emotion do you expect me to have when seeing people? Pity? Fear?

They're just people.
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Wow.
Yes wow indeed Safe-Keeper!

Me, when I saw this woman dressed in a Niqab, felt a number of emotions.

- Sympathy mainly. Yes sympathy for this poor woman who was forced to wear this garb. Forced to wear it by her husband and community, but perhaps even by her own religious conviction. Peering out through that slit, she would see all the other women free to wear whatever they wanted, and I wondered what she thought of that. I know she would have been subjected to taunts, from some insensitive bastards at times also.

- Anger, at the religion dictating she should dress in this uncomfortable fashion.

- Frustration, that there was nothing I could do to relieve the woman's discomfort.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:58 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This entire post is a clown car of misunderstanding:

You don't treat the zombies as real. You treat the civil unrest as real.

You don't address public fears about contagious homosexuality by sending out reassuring pamphlets explaining how to avoid "catching the gay". You start a public service campaign focusing on education and tolerance.

You don't just ignore civil unrest over zombies because zombies aren't real.
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Oh, we can most certainly agree on THAT. But that's a whole other thing than the point that I, or for that matter Dara O'Briain, were trying to make. The point was precisely that you don't treat a (mostly) imaginary danger as real just because some people are afraid of it. Fear of zombies doesn't make zombies a real threat that the government has to deal with. But I suppose I didn't explain it very well, then.

Apart from not explaining very well you seem to have missed the message theprestige was giving us.

Just because zombies aren't a real threat, doesn't change the fact that fear of zombies may be. Thus the fear of zombies may legitimately be the object of government attention.
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:13 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Apart from not explaining very well you seem to have missed the message theprestige was giving us.

Just because zombies aren't a real threat, doesn't change the fact that fear of zombies may be. Thus the fear of zombies may legitimately be the object of government attention.
Our views have historically been so at odds, on pretty much every point, that I would hesitate to claim that you understand and endorse my argument.
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:40 PM   #498
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Yes I admit to some surprise that we seemed to agree on this. Must be an apparition. Let's get back to our usual feuding.
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Old 13th June 2019, 05:54 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Wow.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes wow indeed Safe-Keeper!

Me, when I saw this woman dressed in a Niqab, felt a number of emotions.

- Sympathy mainly. Yes sympathy for this poor woman who was forced to wear this garb. Forced to wear it by her husband and community, but perhaps even by her own religious conviction. Peering out through that slit, she would see all the other women free to wear whatever they wanted, and I wondered what she thought of that. I know she would have been subjected to taunts, from some insensitive bastards at times also.
Forced? Have you ever talked to someone about why they wear it? Would it surprise you that women choose to wear the hijab or niqab?

I wear the niqab, let me speak on my own behalf

My life as teenage niqabi: “For me the face veil represented a beautiful form of modesty and virtue”

'Don't judge us for what we wear': Wearing a niqab in Australia

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
- Anger, at the religion dictating she should dress in this uncomfortable fashion.
What makes you think it's uncomfortable?

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
- Frustration, that there was nothing I could do to relieve the woman's discomfort.
What makes you think it's uncomfortable?

I suggest that perhaps you also feel a bit of pity? A bit of superiority that you don't force women to make fashion choices that they don't want even though that's not what's happening here?

They're just people. They're citizens. They're mothers, they're daughters, they're wives. Just people. Live with them.
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Old 13th June 2019, 07:43 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just because zombies aren't a real threat, doesn't change the fact that fear of zombies may be. Thus the fear of zombies may legitimately be the object of government attention.
So it might be better for the OP to read: "Fear of Islam. How do we cope?"?
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Old 13th June 2019, 09:04 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This entire post is a clown car of misunderstanding:

You don't treat the zombies as real. You treat the civil unrest as real.

You don't address public fears about contagious homosexuality by sending out reassuring pamphlets explaining how to avoid "catching the gay". You start a public service campaign focusing on education and tolerance.

You don't just ignore civil unrest over zombies because zombies aren't real.

Absolutely. But the education and the campaign, in your analogy, would be directed not at the zombies (or the gay), but at those running irrationally scared of the zombies (or of catching the gay), right?


ETA :
The analogy gods must have got wind of your repeatedly expressed antipathy towards analogies, and worked to get you to argue here against your own position! :--)

Or is it that this has been your position all along?

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Old 13th June 2019, 09:32 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
... sympathy for this poor woman who was forced to wear this garb. Forced to wear it by her husband and community, but perhaps even by her own religious conviction ...

Isn't this something of a strawman? Sure, if that woman would have told you, herself, of coercion, or discomfort, then your sympathy would be commendable. But she might be happy wearing that ridiculous dress, for all we know, given her culture and values.

It's like that woman seeing us hunched over our laptops commenting here, and feeling sorry for us for wasting our time here, and wondering how best we might be deconditioned so we spent our leisure with our loved ones and friends or out getting some exercise.

Your concern is valid, as would this hypothetical woman's, but only if it isn't based on a strawman. Sure, wearing burqas is sometimes an imposition (and "social media" sometimes compulsive), but we can't really pass blanket judgments of this nature.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:57 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, they need rescuing from themselves, right? We need to free them from their savagery er I mean religion. All they need is a bit of white colonialism er I mean education and everything will be fine.

Well life in general would be a lot better for the great majority of people in Muslim countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran and numerous other places, if people there were not raised from childhood by forced indoctrination into religious beliefs and the inerrancy of God's very own words/commands in the holy books.

If it were not for Islamic religion, women's rights, their prospects and lives would be vastly better. The lives and the prospects of children (that's everyone in their formative years) would be vastly better for having a proper education in real schools rather than a forced religious education in Madrassa's.

I think many acadmeics & others have long noted that religion really thrives on keeping people in poverty and ignorance, and I expect they are probably right in that conclusion.

So actually the answer is, Yes ... yes, religion is responsible for holding back everyone in those countries, and for setting them against (often violently against) not only other religions but even against others from different ethnic sects of the same Islamic religion in the same country!
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Old 14th June 2019, 12:20 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Yet! It was precisely upon taking up that challenge and reading up on the actual teachings that brought me face to face with very sobering reality circa Charlie Hebdo days. Just as political ideology runs the gamut from friendly and debatable democracy to my-way-or-highway violent fascism, no surprise, religion does as well.

Therefore I would counter your observation with the opposite claim, in fact: The debates about Islam on ISF so far -- can't speak to other places -- are best characterized by the complete lack of any sort of research as you suggest. It has not helped to provide links, bibliographies, quotes in context, or anything else. It has proven useless to find and identify policy statements made and signed by both major sects, and most if not all Muslim-majority nations, as indicative of "moderate Islam" and discuss their dangerous reasoning.

So I've mostly moved on, only dropping by threads such as these to stress the legitimacy of the critique of dogma so that debate is not entirely silenced by well-intentioned but deadening political correctness.

You could very easily find this for yourself, and I've given links to various things before, but after reading your post I just did a 10 second Google Search for "MI5 reports on Islamic terrorism", and the the very first thing that comes up is this -

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/terrorism


https://www.mi5.gov.uk/international-terrorism


It's just a general overview, and as the nations main security/intelligence service, they (MI5) do not want to spell out any details of what they do, and do not want to make unnecessary inflammatory remarks against any particular group of people (such as religious Muslims in the UK or elsewhere). But the very first thing you should see in those links, is what has now become an open acknowledgement (even from MI5) that Islamic terrorism both internationally, and specifically in the UK where MI5 has major responsibility for all intelligence gathering and counter-terrorism stratergy etc., is indeed finally admitted to be rooted in Islamic religious belief.
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Old 14th June 2019, 12:27 AM   #505
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It's Friday night. I don't have the energy to handle "forced indoctrination" right now.
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Old 14th June 2019, 12:30 AM   #506
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Hell, I wore a niqab before. Of course, i called it a ninja mask
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:02 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Forced? Have you ever talked to someone about why they wear it? Would it surprise you that women choose to wear the hijab or niqab?
It is true that some, if not many, Muslim women in the West choose to wear the hijab or niqab. It is not true to say that women in Iran and Saudi Arabia have this choice.

In both those countries, wearing them is enforced, often quite brutally, by religious police.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF-ZuHJOGDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCuzPkr532Y

There are several ongoing campaigns by female activists, who want that freedom of choice.
For example, My Stealthy Freedom.
In both those countries, enforcing a dress code for women (whilst not doing the same for men) is part of the general oppression of women in those countries.
I would also suggest that in many countries, there is considerable community pressure on women to cover up. Disregarding this pressure is dangerous, sometimes fatally so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qandeel_Baloch

This is a nice article exploring this issue, and highlighting the difference between those who can choose, and those who can't.
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Old 14th June 2019, 03:59 AM   #508
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While that is true, the talk started from Thor seeing a woman wearing a niqab, and asked how does that make us feel. He didn't say that he saw her during a trip to Afghanistan or anything to that effect. It's a fair guess that he saw her in some non-islamic country, even just by the fact that he only says he saw ONE, so how I or arth feel about it is coloured by that context.

Now changing that to, basically, "yeah, but if that were in Iran or Saudi Arabia"... well, that's a whole other set of goalposts, innit?
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Old 14th June 2019, 10:55 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
While that is true, the talk started from Thor seeing a woman wearing a niqab, and asked how does that make us feel. He didn't say that he saw her during a trip to Afghanistan or anything to that effect. It's a fair guess that he saw her in some non-islamic country, even just by the fact that he only says he saw ONE, so how I or arth feel about it is coloured by that context.

Now changing that to, basically, "yeah, but if that were in Iran or Saudi Arabia"... well, that's a whole other set of goalposts, innit?
Indeed. I'm not defending Thor's comment. I don't think you can make a judgement about whether someone is wearing the niqab out of choice or not, simply by looking at them. What I'm saying is, as a reaction to Arthwollipot's post about how women all want to wear it, is that that isn't true either.
I don't think this is moving the goalposts. I think this is adding nuance and depth to the kneejerk responses from both sides.
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Old 14th June 2019, 11:15 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Absolutely. But the education and the campaign, in your analogy, would be directed not at the zombies (or the gay), but at those running irrationally scared of the zombies (or of catching the gay), right?





ETA :

The analogy gods must have got wind of your repeatedly expressed antipathy towards analogies, and worked to get you to argue here against your own position! :--)



Or is it that this has been your position all along?
That has been my position all along.
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Old 14th June 2019, 12:55 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Indeed. I'm not defending Thor's comment. I don't think you can make a judgement about whether someone is wearing the niqab out of choice or not, simply by looking at them. What I'm saying is, as a reaction to Arthwollipot's post about how women all want to wear it, is that that isn't true either.
I don't think this is moving the goalposts. I think this is adding nuance and depth to the kneejerk responses from both sides.
True enough, then.
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:11 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It would help if you were to read what I have written arth before wading in with your contradicting opinion. I conceded that some women may wear these garments "voluntarily" in a way, although being compelled by the religious faith they were indoctrinated into, to make that "voluntary" choice.

Yes I have read stuff like those testimonials before, but am not naive enough to accept it as the typical view of the veiled woman. I have read other accounts written by women who have escaped Islam, and the story they tell is in stark contrast to those you link.

Quote:
What makes you think it's uncomfortable?

What makes you think it's uncomfortable?
Not sure why you felt the need to say this twice. I would think it quite obvious the garment would be uncomfortable and offer the following as reasons for this.

- Hot day, lack of ventilation .... need I go on?
- Restricted peripheral vision. Surely this is undeniable?
- Being taunted by insensitive pricks in our community. Lots of accounts of this I have read.

But as I conceded above the women may voluntarily don the outfit, for the same reason Opus Dei monks wear the cilice.

Quote:
I suggest that perhaps you also feel a bit of pity? A bit of superiority that you don't force women to make fashion choices that they don't want even though that's not what's happening here?

They're just people. They're citizens. They're mothers, they're daughters, they're wives. Just people. Live with them.
So now implying I am feeling superior now arth? Just can't help yourself can you? You just have to throw in a nasty bit of crap. Why is that?
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:28 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Isn't this something of a strawman? Sure, if that woman would have told you, herself, of coercion, or discomfort, then your sympathy would be commendable. But she might be happy wearing that ridiculous dress, for all we know, given her culture and values.

It's like that woman seeing us hunched over our laptops commenting here, and feeling sorry for us for wasting our time here, and wondering how best we might be deconditioned so we spent our leisure with our loved ones and friends or out getting some exercise.

Your concern is valid, as would this hypothetical woman's, but only if it isn't based on a strawman. Sure, wearing burqas is sometimes an imposition (and "social media" sometimes compulsive), but we can't really pass blanket judgments of this nature.
I think I answered this reasonably comprehensively in my response to arth ^.

Yes I have conceded that some women will voluntarily wear that "ridiculous dress", although happily I'm not sure of. The 'One Law For All' organisation has published some testimonials by ex-Muslim women, and that teenager who recently escaped from Saudi, obtaining asylum in Canada was somewhat vocal also, as I recall.

Please spare me that stuff about "strawman". I find the term irritating.
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:42 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Indeed. I'm not defending Thor's comment. I don't think you can make a judgement about whether someone is wearing the niqab out of choice or not, simply by looking at them. What I'm saying is, as a reaction to Arthwollipot's post about how women all want to wear it, is that that isn't true either.
I don't think this is moving the goalposts. I think this is adding nuance and depth to the kneejerk responses from both sides.
Just to clarify my position.

The reasons the woman is wearing the niqab can be complex. One could assume it is voluntary (albeit with the weight of religious conviction), as there is no legal compulsion for her to wear it in Australia. On the other hand there may be enormous compulsion from her partner and religious community.
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Old 14th June 2019, 03:36 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
It's just a general overview, and as the nations main security/intelligence service, they (MI5) do not want to spell out any details of what they do, and do not want to make unnecessary inflammatory remarks against any particular group of people (such as religious Muslims in the UK or elsewhere). But the very first thing you should see in those links, is what has now become an open acknowledgement (even from MI5) that Islamic terrorism both internationally, and specifically in the UK where MI5 has major responsibility for all intelligence gathering and counter-terrorism stratergy etc., is indeed finally admitted to be rooted in Islamic religious belief.
1. No. It does say that a large part of it is Islamist terrorist organizations, but I see nothing except your reading between the lines (and then ignoring the actual lines) to say that Islam as a whole is somehow a terrorist threat.

I mean by the same token, for example, Buddhists have killed over 10,000 Muslims in the Rohingya genocide in just a few months between the end of 2016 and 2017, but hardly anyone would say that Buddhism as a whole is some kind of religion of terrorism and violence.

E.g., Buddhists again were at it in Sri Lanka. Again, I don't see anyone saying that Buddhism as a whole is to blame.

E.g., during the wars at the end of Yugoslavia, both Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbians tried to essentially do an ethnic cleansing of Muslims including any Bosnian and to some extent Albanian Muslims they could lay their hands on. One single massacre, the Srebrenica genocide resulted in 8000 dead and 25,000–30,000 Bosniak Muslims expelled at gun point. Well, that and they also tried to get rid of each other, 'cause, you know, nothing says "good Christian" like trying to murder the wrong kind of Christians. Yet nobody (sane) would claim that Christianity as a whole is a genocide attempt waiting to happen.

Etc.

Nor would anyone say that we need to do anything special to deal with, for example, Buddhism as a whole.

2. What the MI5 however don't say is that they need any more help in dealing with it. Partially because...

3. Being even the main part of a nearly inexistent threat -- see the numbers I've provided -- is still nothing to get up in arms about. It's like saying that vampires are the most dangerous undead threat. Yeah, but if you're not going to die by either vampire, ghoul or zombie, anyway... who cares?

4. I'm glad you brought up MI5. So let's get back to your claim about Islamic terrorism that it "has required absolutely enormous resources from the West just to keep it within any sort of control at all." (Cf message #478.) Because the WHOLE budget of MI5, according to the official figures, is around 0.1% of the GDP of UK. That is the WHOLE of MI5, not just terrorism, and certainly not just Islamist terrorism. Hardly seems that enormous, eh?

5. But generally, if your source, in this case MI5's web page, doesn't actually SAY something, then you don't know. It doesn't mean you get to fill in the blanks with whatever fairy tale appeals to you.
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Old 14th June 2019, 03:40 PM   #516
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Are they really Buddhists, though?

The more closely coupled religion and citizenship, the less significant religion as a differentiator.

Is the violence in Myanmar Buddhist violence? Or is it violence of an in group whose sponsors have settled on Buddhism as their preferred opiate of the masses? And which violence serves the sponsors rather than the religion?

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Old 14th June 2019, 03:42 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are they really Buddhists, though?

The more closely coupled religion and citizenship, the less significant religion as a differentiator.
Surely you mean: are they true Scotsmen?
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Old 14th June 2019, 03:44 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Surely you mean: are they true Scotsmen?
No. I mean: have you accurately captured what is actually going on?
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Old 14th June 2019, 06:31 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No. I mean: have you accurately captured what is actually going on?
About as accurately as those who go "there was a terror attack last year, therefore the Islam is evil." It's supposed to be an ad absurdum, not an honest critique of Buddhism.

Or if anyone needs even more of a translation, people are people, and actually following their religion is only coincidental to whatever dumbassery they feel like doing. And yes, as you've noted, their group and their "us vs them" lines will hardly ever be that 100% based on religion as postulated here about the Islam. And, yes, if you follow Cicerp's "Cui bono?", you might find someone else than God benefiting from it.
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Old 15th June 2019, 01:24 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's Friday night. I don't have the energy to handle "forced indoctrination" right now.

Good. But of course you are not being forcibly indoctrinated to believe any dangerous superstitions. But would you really deny that millions of young children are being forcibly indoctrinated with Islamic religious beliefs in Madrassas all over Pakistan and elsewhere (see footnote too)?



Footnote - I mentioned earlier that Muslim groups in the UK have successfully persuaded the UK government and the UK legal system, to allow certain types of legal cases (afaik mainly family law matters such as divorce issues) to be decided not by UK law and by UK courts, but instead by what they set up themselves as Sharia law and their own Sharia courts. But did you also know that in the UK we now apparently have over 2000 Madrassa's? Because I found that "fact" very surprising (I was not aware the UK had any Madrassa's!, or that we had any law allowing that sort of after-school cramming education specifically from holy Islamic texts) ... though in fairness I should add that most of the so-called Madrasas appear to be very small and just held in peoples houses or in a local community hall or perhaps in an area of the local Mosque ... but even so, if there are 2000 Madrasas's in the UK then it means there thousands of Muslim parents and many more than two thousand of their children who are being forcibly indoctrinated with even more Islam than they get by insisting that the children also attend the local Mosques several times a week, not to mention some of them also sending their children to local state schools, ie normal day-time schools 9 am to 4pm, such as those I mentioned earlier in Birmingham, where the Muslim teachers and the Muslim parent governors were very clearly trying to teach the children Islamic religious beliefs during ordinary school lessons.

By the way, I would not particularly mind them doing any of that, if it did not lead to false educational beliefs (eg. Beliefs against science and evolution and beliefs in supernatural gods and miracles etc.), and more importantly to extremely dangerous beliefs & attitudes towards anyone else outside of the faith of Islam … but unfortunately it obviously is encouraging all of that.
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