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23rd November 2017, 05:45 AM | #41 |
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Of course I do. It's not that hard to know better than neo-nazis, you should try it once.
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23rd November 2017, 06:21 AM | #42 |
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None of them can be in Poland, or Hungary or Slovakia, for there is practically zero immigration. Lots of emmigration, though.
In Germany, there is a strong negative correlation between local percentage of immigrants on one hand, and racist crime or votes for neonazi parties on the other: the more immigrants people actually interact with, have personal experiences with, the LESS likely they are to support right-wing nonsense. |
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23rd November 2017, 08:57 AM | #43 |
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Being smarter than neo-Nazis is a very low bar. An even lower bar is being smarter than an anarcho-communist.
I think if you want to tell them communism is their solution that you will need very compelling evidence. They have literally generations of experience with that and it's left You're claiming that life in Soviet Poland was better than, say life in Western Germany at the same period? Let's see your evidence. Very confused thinking on your part. That they wanted to leave in the first place is evidence that things were not better before, that they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that things had improved. What changed? Where did these improvements come from? I suppose in your mind this covers the Katyn massacre, the internment of the Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prissoner massacre, the mass deportations, the arrests of politicians, scientist, civil servants, clergy and anyone who could be called "intelligentsia". In your mind they all "had it comming"? Is equality for black people the same as Soviet imperialism? I don't think so. One is elevating a minority to the same privileged class as the majority, the other is brutal murder, theft and oppression. That was so awful that the Soviet Union was justified in collaborating with the Nazis to destroy it? I can name lots and lots of examples of Soviet oppression of the Polish people after the soviets took over, but it's much harder to find examples of how the Polish were oppressed by their own government before. Can you name some? |
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23rd November 2017, 12:19 PM | #44 |
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I thought you had "generations of experience" to listen to?
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24th November 2017, 10:08 AM | #45 |
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An opinion poll as evidence, how adorable!
Germany is still working to bring it's Eastern population up to parity. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ermany/307776/ They had the advantage of being grafted onto one of the most powerful economies in Europe. Other former Soviet satellite nations haven’t had that advantage and are still struggling. They believed capitalism was magical and wealth would come without work. Of course they were disappointed. It didn’t help that the transition was abrupt and mismanaged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism...targeted_group I already did that when I named the Katyn massacre, the internment of Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prisoner massacre and mass deportations. I suppose I could go on, that’s depressing research. Expropriating land and taking it for the state is not the equivalent redistributing to the people, although I can see how it may seem like it in your bizarre anarcho-communist worldview. |
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24th November 2017, 05:39 PM | #46 |
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That was literally the most massive invasion in history, so it's hard to say whether Russia was "hit harder" than it should have been. ANY invading force has a tremendous advantage until they begin to stretch their supply lines. The Germans had local numerical superiority up to Moscow or so, yet took massive losses themselves. Of course the crippled officer corps hurt (but properly contextualized it's a bit more complex than "stalin paranoid" - military intervention in politics was a partially justified fear), but much of it was a matter of the limited responses an invaded nation can muster at first.
The whole operation was an insane suicide mission that no remotely rational person should have ever considered. Those are remarkably hard to defend oneself against. The trajectory followed by Russia is not really that unique - massive setbacks at first, followed by re-organisation and effective resistance, followed by victory. It's telling that Stalin was confident enough about Moscow to not have a detailed escape plan. I'm not sure Communism is relevant. The Soviet administration was insanely efficient at times, and some politically appointed military comissars like Kruschev and Beria ended up being huge boons. |
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25th November 2017, 07:54 AM | #47 |
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Amusing to see how fast you backpedal from your "generations of experience", which supposedly explains nazis' anti-communism, once you realize that those generations say the exact opposite of what you want them to say.
Have you ever considered rather changing your worldview in accordance with actual data and evidence? It might help with that tenuous grasp on reality you seem to have.
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The only people who actually believe capitalism is a meritocracy are either total morons or bourgeoisie who feel the need to stroke their own ego.
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28th November 2017, 11:45 AM | #48 |
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This is a non-sequitur. They can still have opinions on the immigration rates of the rest of Europe, and they can still have good reasons for not wanting high immigration into their own countries. Heck, I'm an American, and I think the immigration policies in parts of Europe are going to be disastrous, if they haven't been already.
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30th November 2017, 06:55 AM | #49 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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20th December 2017, 08:34 PM | #50 |
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Didn't want to start a new thread, but Polish nationalism is in the news again. They're facing EU sanctions because of some changes to their judiciary. Be interesting to see where this goes.
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24th December 2017, 12:34 PM | #51 |
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An important aspect of the current rise in Polish nationalism is the role played by Donald Trump. This article is in German, and I don't know how well Google translate will handle it: Trump als Chance (junge Welt, Oct. 13, 2017). junge Welt is a left-wing newspaper.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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28th January 2018, 11:31 AM | #52 |
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I'm starting to develop a mild interest in Polish politics. They're currently having a bit of a row with Israel over some laws related to how people are allowed to discuss the Holocaust.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42848842 |
28th January 2018, 11:38 AM | #53 |
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Gosh, why bother with argument if all you need do is legislate the truth? Real time-saver.
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28th January 2018, 01:29 PM | #54 |
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Geesh, talk about sensitive. Sure, the phrase "Polish death camp" is unfortunate, but I'm not aware of anyone who uses it to imply that they were set up and/or operated by Poles. It is, however, a matter of historical record that they were located in Poland. Is the phrase "death camp on Polish territory" also verboten according to the new law?
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28th January 2018, 03:40 PM | #55 |
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I don't think that is the point of the motion to ban the use of the phrase 'Polish Death Camps', but rather refer to 'Nazi Death Camps'. Poles are sensitive to the fact, they feel victims of the Nazis themselves. It's an identity thing.
Many Jews in Israel - or at least the ones I encountered in Jerusalem - adorned themselves sartorically in C16 Warsaw clothing, some with exaggeratedly huge cossack-style hats. Half the people in my plane flying to Tel Aviv were dressed in a more toned down 'Stamford Hill' way, long sidelocks and rabbi hats, and likewise on my recent flight to Gdansk. (Poland.) It's to do with saying, hey, we are also the victims of Nazi Germany, we want to be loved, we identify strongly with our Polish heritage, Jew and Pole, alike. It's to do with self-esteem. So yes, the proposal by Netanyahu makes sense to me. |
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28th January 2018, 06:27 PM | #56 |
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29th January 2018, 12:34 AM | #57 |
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I seem to recall Bibi doing a war dance around Obama with some GOP buddies over the Iran nuke question, which for people like this corrupt little man, can and should only be resolved using extreme military measures. I believe Obama was smeared from day one of his administration simply because he disagreed with, gosh, Israel's illegal settlements, and therefore could, and should, be used as an easy - and btw, subtly racist - foil.
Like Trump, Bibi is fast undoing all things that tether the country to a sober, responsible role in the world, and in both cases, making a complete mockery of any claims to "democratic values" by either nation. Both are dedicated to a single-state, religiously authoritarian solution in Israel and Palestine, and their followers are all too quick to paint others with the antisemitic brush. But hey, nice benchmark. The people of "Never Again," marching arm in arm now with those who link arms with Nazis. Kool-aid has never been cooler. |
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29th January 2018, 06:31 AM | #58 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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29th January 2018, 09:02 PM | #60 |
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Obama was criticized for not supporting Israel as strongly as previous administrations, but I don't recall anyone, certainly not Netenyahu, calling him an anti-Semite over it. I can't tell from reading that paragraph, are you claiming he did?
Where do you see this happening? |
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29th January 2018, 11:55 PM | #61 |
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30th January 2018, 12:50 AM | #62 |
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Let's not be ingenuous. The hard right, including Netanyahu, uses attack dogs for this to keep his image "honorable." Propaganda Methods of the Righteous 101.
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Nazi flags flew, a woman was murdered, Trump and his GOP blamed the victim. The Israelis want to name Metro stops and streets after Trump (!!!) ... signalling either the outcome from years of heavy glue sniffing, or the kind of deeply mistaken retreat to madness that fundamentalism engenders. Now that Israel has clearly decided this is a religious war -- and not the struggle of an formerly oppressed people to live in peace and justice, just as others also might do -- Israel, as a friend or ally, is a driving force in the steep ethical decline of its partners. Yet another stellar trouser drop by yet another bling-obsessed people worshiping might over right. Quite the fashion trend these days. No thanks, and goodbye unworthy Israel, back-stabbing traitor to the very values underlying support for its creation. It has now earned, and must own, the spite of its enemies. |
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30th January 2018, 04:52 AM | #63 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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30th January 2018, 07:37 PM | #64 |
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I'm not being "ingenuous", I'm calling out your BS. I'm doing that because it’s deep and odorous and should be called out.
That guy made his comments about Obama and Kerry before being named as Netenyahu's media advisor and the revelation of those comments let to the controversy behind his leaving that office. This I learned reading the article you linked to and having never heard of the guy before. So the goalposts start at Netenyahu accuses people of anti-Semitism presumably for political purposes, or whatever DDT meant as he failed to elaborate. You moved the goalposts to people making the accusation for him, but you failed to meet that goal too. Which has nothing to do with Netenyahu. All world leaders work with other world leaders on and common goals and issues they agree on. This does not imply agreement in other areas. Trump and only Trump is responsible for his shameful response to Charlottesville. Israel has not decided this is a religious war, and that kind of hyperbole is at best unhelpful and at worst purposeful disinformation. Fundamentalism certainly is an issue in this conflict, but if you can only see it on the Israeli side then you are not paying attention. It’s hard to parse that into anything of substance. Who are these “bling-obsessed” peoples of which you speak? |
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30th January 2018, 10:45 PM | #65 |
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The Jerusalem Post takes a more reasonable view. What is surprising is that Poles could suffer so much at the hands of racists in the past, and still elect such a gang as their present government.
But looking at the mountebank now in the White House, I note that such mystery is not confined to Poland. |
31st January 2018, 12:05 AM | #66 |
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31st January 2018, 02:16 AM | #67 |
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That's simply not true. There was no "Vichy Poland", and the Nazis killed upward two million Poles. There were individual pogroms where Nazis would stoke anti-Jewish sentiment in Polish communities and individual Poles who reported Jews for rewards, but nothing like large-scale widespread collaboration. You have to consider the pressure an occupying force exerts on communities as well. One of the basic strategies in subduing a population is to sow division and mistrust between groups by pressuring and encouraging individuals to betray each other. Any blame-assigning really needs to be carefully considered.
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31st January 2018, 04:40 AM | #68 |
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In this case, by a very slanted and one-sided statement unjustly attacking the attitudes and acts of the Poles during WW2, and using that to paint this proposed law. I have no love lost for the current Polish regime, but from the media reports on the law, it is not meant to stifle discussion or historical research into Polish collaboration during WW2.
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31st January 2018, 05:53 AM | #69 |
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31st January 2018, 06:01 AM | #70 |
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See my post #54 for the statement I was referring to, by education minister Naftali Bennett.
But that Netanyahu statement you quote there also qualifies. I don't think this law denies in any way the Holocaust. By casting it as such, in a roundabout way Netanyahu accuses the current Polish government of being antisemitic. |
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31st January 2018, 06:25 AM | #71 |
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Naftali Bennett is a "crony" of Netenyahu?
"It is a historic fact that many Poles aided in the murder of Jews, handed them in, abused them, and even killed Jews during and after the Holocaust." No part of that statement is not objectively true. It's also true that many Polish people of that era resisted the Nazis and helped Jews escape, but the proposed law doesn't forbid talking about that. The article describes the law as making it illegal to accuse Polish people of complicity with the Nazis. Since some Polish people were complicit, wouldn't that be denial? |
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31st January 2018, 06:54 AM | #72 |
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And the same could be said of the French, the Dutch - about any country that was occupied by the Nazis. And in each case, the "many" is only many in absolute terms, not in percentage-wise terms.
In this context, only highlighting one side only serves to frame the Poles as massively anti-semitic. My understanding is that "Polish people" in this context only refers to the collective, so discussing individual Polish collaborators is not prohibited. There's already a wiki page on the subject which gives an English translation of the law:
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And yes, I'm mindful of the odious nature of the current Polish regime; and also of the safeguard of the ECHR. |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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31st January 2018, 10:45 AM | #73 |
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Yes, the same could be said about the French and the Dutch, but it’s not because neither the French nor the Dutch are considering a law making it illegal to talk about French or Dutch complicity with the Nazis. The Polish people are being singled out not to portray them as being especially anti-Semitic, but because it’s their government that is considering this law. That one side is highlighted because that’s what this law would censor, not because they want to be unfair to the Polish people.
Speaking about them in the collective shouldn’t be prohibited either. Do you disagree? I’m not an attorney, but I don’t see anything on that Wikipedia page that tells me the law is anything other than described in the article. It certainly seems like it could be interpreted to prosecute people who speak the truth about Polish collaboration with the Nazi occupation. Which is why it’s puzzling that you feel it’s Netenyahu who should be singled out for criticism here. |
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31st January 2018, 12:25 PM | #74 |
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I disagree, from the wording of the law, that this would censor that.
I agree with you. But I don't see how this is what it's touted to be. It prohibits claiming the "Polish People" - i.e., the collection of all Poles living at the time - collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust. It doesn't prohibit saying that Lech A. or Stanislaus B., or even the villagers of village X did that. I don't see that. I refer again to para 3, and I'm confident that the ECHR would strike that down. Did you miss my criticism of the Polish government in my first post in this thread? And for one, I don't see an antisemitic motivation in this law, and for two, Netanyahu's own criticism that it would constitute "Holocaust denial" is completely over the top - if you read the law, it frickingly affirms in the first paragraph that the Holocaust took place. |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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31st January 2018, 07:09 PM | #75 |
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Do you?
I’ve read the law as described in the article and I’ve read through the Wikipedia page you linked to, and I do not share your confidence. If I went to Poland and wrote some articles pointing out that the Polish people have a history of anti-Semitism, that it existed in Poland long before the Nazis came, that the Nazis encouraged and stoked what already existed, and indeed that Polish anti-Semitism is still pretty strong today even by Eastern European standards and concluded that it would be amazing beyond belief if Polish anti-Semitism didn’t aid the Nazi agenda in some way, it seems like I could get in trouble with this law. Everything I just said is either objectively true or perfectly reasonable conjecture, but because I’m speaking in general terms and not identifying specific people, I could be fined or jailed. If you could clarify, ECHR means European Court of Human Rights, correct? Are you saying it would strike down the whole law or just that third paragraph? I don’t necessarily think anti-Semitism does motivate this law, at least not explicitly, but I also disagree that labeling something “holocaust denial” is axiomatically an accusation of anti-Semitism. Very little of actual holocaust denial denies the entirety of the Holocaust. It’s almost all about minimization, nit-picking, and blame shifting. This law certainly does meet that criteria, especially by the hyperbolic standards of everyday political speech. If this law in any way deters someone from speaking an uncomfortable truth, then that truth is denied, and it does reach the level of denial regardless of the motivation of it’s author or supporters. |
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