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Old 8th September 2019, 07:55 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Did this happen directly to this supposedly reliable source, or was it heard by this supposedly reliable source? If it happened directly to this source, then please give us the details(who, where, when).
Without details, all I can say is "Thanks for the story".
It was told to me by one of the police officers who was there. I don't see how giving you location and when would make any difference.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:03 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
This does not follow. We know of many ways in which sane, rational people can be fooled into thinking they interacted with people who weren't actually there. Examples have been given in this thread.
The ghost stories that I find convincing are those where there is no reason for the person who sees the ghost to think there is a ghost.

The police officers thought that they were seeing someone else in the house. The other sightings were similar, whereby someone interacted with another who it was only after the sighting, they realised it was not another person.

In one instance a church minister reacted to seeing a female in a library and a dropped piece of paper. In the other a male staying with friends, moved out the room he was sleeping in at the request of a female and it was only the next day that it was realised, no such female was staying in the house that night.

None are people going to spooky places looking for ghosts or inclined to believe in that sort of thing.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The ghost stories that I find convincing are those where there is no reason for the person who sees the ghost to think there is a ghost.
What possible difference does this make? The circumstances in which people can believe they are interacting with someone who it turns out isn't actually there are not influenced by when the idea it might be/have been a ghost occurs to them.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:45 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
What possible difference does this make? The circumstances in which people can believe they are interacting with someone who it turns out isn't actually there are not influenced by when the idea it might be/have been a ghost occurs to them.
Because none of the possible triggers listed in this post

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12810314

explain why someone thought they saw a ghost.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:51 AM   #125
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(a) that list does not claim to be exhaustive (in fact it's explicitly stated that there are other possibilities) and (b) 7 might actually fit the bill.
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:49 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Because none of the possible triggers listed in this post



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12810314



explain why someone thought they saw a ghost.
Just so there is no confusion what are you claiming exists when you say ghosts exist?
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:32 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just so there is no confusion what are you claiming exists when you say ghosts exist?
That there is such a thing as a ghost, that is independent of and not connected to the person who sees it.

I would suggest that the standard definition of a ghost, as a dead person who reappears, could be expanded to include a manifestation of someone who has not yet been born and it is some sort of fault in time, whereby something from outwith our time makes an appearance.

I clearly accept I could easily be wrong. But there is witness evidence for ghosts that is pretty compelling there is something going on, that we really have no idea how it happens.
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:44 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
(a) that list does not claim to be exhaustive (in fact it's explicitly stated that there are other possibilities) and (b) 7 might actually fit the bill.
No. 7 is "7. Involuntary Neurological Response to Latent Stimulus: Putting this into English; you have 5 senses that are much more sensitive than we expect. Our 5 senses work in concert to give our brain information about our immediate surroundings. Sometimes this information is inaccurate and can put pictures or sounds in our heads that are not there. A faint change in room temperature, humidity, a faint odor, or a familiar sound can light up parts of your brain."

The ghosts stories that make me sure there is something actually out there and it is not our senses include this one which a friend related about her youth.

Her family lived in a large house that at one time had been a nunnery. During building work, a large cupboard/box room was found. It only ever had a door into it, no window and that door had been covered over with wood panelling.

A door was reinstated and the room was used as a small study. One Christmas, due to the number of guests, a camp bed was put into the room and one of the children visiting was given the room to sleep in.

The next day the child was found asleep on a couch in another room. He said that during the night a lady had asked him to move there as he could not sleep in that room. He was unfazed, but the adults were rather put out. All denied it was any of them.

Go on a few days and new guests and this time my friend's uncle was given the room. The next morning and he was found asleep on the couch. He to related that he had been woken by a lady who had asked him to move, which he had done and like the child he was happy to comply, at the time....but now he was rather freaked out and that room was never used for anyone to sleep in again.
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:48 PM   #129
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Cool story, bro.
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:50 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No. 7 is "7. Involuntary Neurological Response to Latent Stimulus: Putting this into English; you have 5 senses that are much more sensitive than we expect. Our 5 senses work in concert to give our brain information about our immediate surroundings. Sometimes this information is inaccurate and can put pictures or sounds in our heads that are not there. A faint change in room temperature, humidity, a faint odor, or a familiar sound can light up parts of your brain."

The ghosts stories that make me sure there is something actually out there and it is not our senses include this one which a friend related about her youth.

Her family lived in a large house that at one time had been a nunnery. During building work, a large cupboard/box room was found. It only ever had a door into it, no window and that door had been covered over with wood panelling.

A door was reinstated and the room was used as a small study. One Christmas, due to the number of guests, a camp bed was put into the room and one of the children visiting was given the room to sleep in.

The next day the child was found asleep on a couch in another room. He said that during the night a lady had asked him to move there as he could not sleep in that room. He was unfazed, but the adults were rather put out. All denied it was any of them.

Go on a few days and new guests and this time my friend's uncle was given the room. The next morning and he was found asleep on the couch. He to related that he had been woken by a lady who had asked him to move, which he had done and like the child he was happy to comply, at the time....but now he was rather freaked out and that room was never used for anyone to sleep in again.
We don't know what it was. So it must have been ghosts.
But have you considered aliens ? Or Jesus ? Or Morpheus (the one from Matrix)? Not so simple, ay ?
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:01 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
We don't know what it was. So it must have been ghosts.
But have you considered aliens ? Or Jesus ? Or Morpheus (the one from Matrix)? Not so simple, ay ?
I think what is traditionally thought of as a ghost is the most likely explanation and they do exist, amongst many hoaxes or events that do have an explanation, such as CO induced hallucinations.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:27 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think what is traditionally thought of as a ghost is the most likely explanation and they do exist, amongst many hoaxes or events that do have an explanation, such as CO induced hallucinations.
But why ? How do you distinguish between ghost, aliens, Jesus, or something you haven't even heard about ?
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:47 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think what is traditionally thought of as a ghost is the most likely explanation and they do exist, amongst many hoaxes or events that do have an explanation, such as CO induced hallucinations.
If ghosts really exist and your anecdote about the ghostly lady was true, then that would indicate that light bounces off of ghosts for witnesses to see them.

That means that ghosts interact with the physical world, in which case why can't we detect them?
Is it like a special pleading sort of thing.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:56 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No. 7 is "7. Involuntary Neurological Response to Latent Stimulus: Putting this into English; you have 5 senses that are much more sensitive than we expect. Our 5 senses work in concert to give our brain information about our immediate surroundings. Sometimes this information is inaccurate and can put pictures or sounds in our heads that are not there. A faint change in room temperature, humidity, a faint odor, or a familiar sound can light up parts of your brain."

The ghosts stories that make me sure there is something actually out there and it is not our senses include this one which a friend related about her youth.

Her family lived in a large house that at one time had been a nunnery. During building work, a large cupboard/box room was found. It only ever had a door into it, no window and that door had been covered over with wood panelling.

A door was reinstated and the room was used as a small study. One Christmas, due to the number of guests, a camp bed was put into the room and one of the children visiting was given the room to sleep in.

The next day the child was found asleep on a couch in another room. He said that during the night a lady had asked him to move there as he could not sleep in that room. He was unfazed, but the adults were rather put out. All denied it was any of them.

Go on a few days and new guests and this time my friend's uncle was given the room. The next morning and he was found asleep on the couch. He to related that he had been woken by a lady who had asked him to move, which he had done and like the child he was happy to comply, at the time....but now he was rather freaked out and that room was never used for anyone to sleep in again.
What they should have done was to test it, sleep in the room again and again and see what happens.

But no they didn't, presumably because they believed in ghosts.

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Old 8th September 2019, 02:00 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If ghosts really exist and your anecdote about the ghostly lady was true, then that would indicate that light bounces off of ghosts for witnesses to see them.

That means that ghosts interact with the physical world, in which case why can't we detect them?
Is it like a special pleading sort of thing.
Whom says ghost can't be detected by devices? Assuming ghosts are real.
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Old 8th September 2019, 02:11 PM   #136
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Thinking about it, re: the ghostly lady post,

After hearing the couple say 'what girl', why didn't the two police immediately go follow the girl or question the couple for saying 'what girl'?

Apparently all they did was get spooked and run back to base and got a day off.

Maybe they believed in ghosts?
Maybe the whole story is bollocks?
who knows.

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Old 8th September 2019, 02:23 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
Whom says ghost can't be detected by devices? Assuming ghosts are real.
Can they be detected by devices?
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:13 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Can they be detected by devices?
I have no idea if they can because we have no idea what the nature of a ghost is. Please don't conflate this as an endorsement ghosts are real and that I want them to be real. At most the phenomena is intriguing. The point is there's not much difference between eyeballs and engineered devices in practice. Furthermore, I can neither confirm nor exclude the possibility of such a thing.
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:23 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
(a) that list does not claim to be exhaustive (in fact it's explicitly stated that there are other possibilities) and (b) 7 might actually fit the bill.
Pun noted
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:28 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No. 7 is "7. Involuntary Neurological Response to Latent Stimulus: Putting this into English; you have 5 senses that are much more sensitive than we expect. Our 5 senses work in concert to give our brain information about our immediate surroundings. Sometimes this information is inaccurate and can put pictures or sounds in our heads that are not there. A faint change in room temperature, humidity, a faint odor, or a familiar sound can light up parts of your brain."

The ghosts stories that make me sure there is something actually out there and it is not our senses include this one which a friend related about her youth.

Her family lived in a large house that at one time had been a nunnery. During building work, a large cupboard/box room was found. It only ever had a door into it, no window and that door had been covered over with wood panelling.

A door was reinstated and the room was used as a small study. One Christmas, due to the number of guests, a camp bed was put into the room and one of the children visiting was given the room to sleep in.

The next day the child was found asleep on a couch in another room. He said that during the night a lady had asked him to move there as he could not sleep in that room. He was unfazed, but the adults were rather put out. All denied it was any of them.

Go on a few days and new guests and this time my friend's uncle was given the room. The next morning and he was found asleep on the couch. He to related that he had been woken by a lady who had asked him to move, which he had done and like the child he was happy to comply, at the time....but now he was rather freaked out and that room was never used for anyone to sleep in again.
Re hilighted. Humans have at least 9 and possibly as many as 26 senses, so you are already wrong straight out of the box. Nobody credible claims a mere 5 senses. That would be idiotic. Science has long since moved beyond such an anachronistic idea.

Could you look beyond 18th century thinking please.
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:52 PM   #141
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Nessie is quoting Axxman300's post, Abaddon. The link to it is in post #124.
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Old 8th September 2019, 04:03 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Nessie is quoting Axxman300's post, Abaddon. The link to it is in post #124.
Read that. And I was responding to Nessie's post #128. Your problem is???
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Old 8th September 2019, 04:41 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Re hilighted. Humans have at least 9 and possibly as many as 26 senses, so you are already wrong straight out of the box. Nobody credible claims a mere 5 senses. That would be idiotic. Science has long since moved beyond such an anachronistic idea.

Could you look beyond 18th century thinking please.
Guess it depends on which scientist you ask.

This guy suggests anywhere between 7 and 11 with 20 possible:

https://medium.com/the-philipendium/...1-f9e6c54f76f0

The other senses seem to draw from the original 5.

Then there's this:

https://www.livescience.com/60752-human-senses.html

Or this:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm.../human-senses/

Bottom line is that they all contribute to false input causing someone to believe they've seen something that wasn't there.
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:27 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
I have no idea if they can because we have no idea what the nature of a ghost is. Please don't conflate this as an endorsement ghosts are real and that I want them to be real. At most the phenomena is intriguing. The point is there's not much difference between eyeballs and engineered devices in practice. Furthermore, I can neither confirm nor exclude the possibility of such a thing.
I agree with the highlighted,
if we can see ghosts then the ghost is interacting physically with the world and reflecting light into our eyes. That would imply that any device that can detect reflected light should be able to detect ghosts, yet I don't think anyone has created such a device. Camera/video doesn't seem to do the job.

We kinda do know a bit about the nature of ghosts (if real), we know that they reflect light otherwise no one would see them.

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Old 8th September 2019, 05:45 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Proof of the existence of something can come from multiple, corroborating, credible witnesses.

I know some other ghost stories that involve credible people who have no reason to lie who say they interacted with a person who can be best described as a ghost.

There is, because of that, such a thing as a ghost, which is not just a figment of our imagination or some sort of projection from within ourselves.
Speaking as the guy who's done the work, seeing something is not proof of anything. I have seen a lot of strange things, I have heard crazy things, but I have no proof. More important is that fact that many of the things I thought I saw have been explained with a little work (and in some cases a lot of work). A good ghost story shouldn't be confused as evidence. Some of my better investigations came from police officers about a house or business where weird stuff was going on. In all of those cases I found explanations related to plumbing (rattling hot water pipes) and in one case one room shook whenever a heavy vehicle drove past the house (geology and foundation issues).

As for ghosts not being an internal projection, the fact is that research has shown it most definitely is internal. A paranormal research team in Oklahoma successfully created a haunting in a public high school over ten years ago. They did it all by word of mouth telling the right kids at the school the standard (and warn out) legend of the janitor who committed suicide in the second floor janitor's closet. As far as I know the place still has the reputation of being haunted even after the research team told them otherwise. Why? Because people saw and heard stuff that had to be the ghost.

When people hear sounds from outside at 2 a.m. their response is dependent upon where they live. Folks living in bear country are going to respond differently than people living in raccoon country. There are parts of Chicago where people don't have the luxury of believing in ghosts when they hear someone downstairs or in the back yard.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to prove ghosts are real. That Nobel Prize money will come in handy, and I'd be set for life between the books I'd write, and the lecture circuit. So far I have nothing.
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:47 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I agree with the highlighted,
if we can see ghosts then the ghost is interacting physically with the world and reflecting light into our eyes. That would imply that any device that can detect reflected light should be able to detect ghosts, yet I don't think anyone has created such a device. Camera/video doesn't seem to do the job.

We kinda do know a bit about the nature of ghosts (if real), we know that they reflect light otherwise no one would see them.
The problem with them reflecting light is that I've lost count of how many times TV ghost hunters "see" an apparition that doesn't show up on ANY of their cameras. That should be a huge clue as to where that image is actually being generated.

I'll expand on this.

Think about what happens when you dream. There is usually gravity, people talk like they would in real life, people do things that they would do in real life, and just about everything in your dreams works the way it should in the real world. In your dreams you often fabricate people who seem real, they talk, the do real things, maybe even have a real job within your dream world. This means that part of your brain can not only fabricate a fully functioning person but also a person that you can interact with. This is why most people who see a ghost will see one that fits their expectations.

This is why I've never been awakened by Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison in my room, And this is why - sadly - I've never encountered any Playmate of the Year at any of my investigations.
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Old 8th September 2019, 10:49 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Read that. And I was responding to Nessie's post #128. Your problem is???
That you're criticising Nessie for saying something that was actually said by Axxman300.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:55 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
But why ? How do you distinguish between ghost, aliens, Jesus, or something you haven't even heard about ?
The person seen is best described as a ghost. It could be something we have not even heard about, but I think ghost is a good name for that as well.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:58 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If ghosts really exist and your anecdote about the ghostly lady was true, then that would indicate that light bounces off of ghosts for witnesses to see them.

That means that ghosts interact with the physical world, in which case why can't we detect them?
Is it like a special pleading sort of thing.
All I can say is that in the ghost stories I know, no form of detection device was available, because a ghost was not expected and what device are you referring to?
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:03 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Thinking about it, re: the ghostly lady post,

After hearing the couple say 'what girl', why didn't the two police immediately go follow the girl or question the couple for saying 'what girl'?

Apparently all they did was get spooked and run back to base and got a day off.

Maybe they believed in ghosts?
Maybe the whole story is bollocks?
who knows.
When the police went outside, there was no sign of the girl but they did delay going after her, due to what was descried as an embarrassing exchange between the officers and the couple over how could the police see someone the couple said they could not.

What convinces me that there is such a thing as a ghost is that in this case and the others I know, those who saw the ghost thought they were seeing an actual person. It was only afterwards that they realised what they had seen was not a live, present person.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:15 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Speaking as the guy who's done the work, seeing something is not proof of anything. I have seen a lot of strange things, I have heard crazy things, but I have no proof. More important is that fact that many of the things I thought I saw have been explained with a little work (and in some cases a lot of work). A good ghost story shouldn't be confused as evidence. Some of my better investigations came from police officers about a house or business where weird stuff was going on. In all of those cases I found explanations related to plumbing (rattling hot water pipes) and in one case one room shook whenever a heavy vehicle drove past the house (geology and foundation issues).
My and my spouses experience is suggestive of an explanation by plumbing or similar, but the noises we heard were one offs and never repeated.

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As for ghosts not being an internal projection, the fact is that research has shown it most definitely is internal. A paranormal research team in Oklahoma successfully created a haunting in a public high school over ten years ago. They did it all by word of mouth telling the right kids at the school the standard (and warn out) legend of the janitor who committed suicide in the second floor janitor's closet. As far as I know the place still has the reputation of being haunted even after the research team told them otherwise. Why? Because people saw and heard stuff that had to be the ghost.

When people hear sounds from outside at 2 a.m. their response is dependent upon where they live. Folks living in bear country are going to respond differently than people living in raccoon country. There are parts of Chicago where people don't have the luxury of believing in ghosts when they hear someone downstairs or in the back yard.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to prove ghosts are real. That Nobel Prize money will come in handy, and I'd be set for life between the books I'd write, and the lecture circuit. So far I have nothing.
The ghost stories I have all involve people not set up in any way to think "ghost" or which can be explained by a bear, racoon or other animal.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:16 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All I can say is that in the ghost stories I know, no form of detection device was available, because a ghost was not expected and what device are you referring to?
Think of this. Today we all have cameras with us pretty much 24 hours 7 days a week. We see that even at times of great personal peril and at great personal risk people snap videos and photos. I'd say for many of the younger folk it is almost instinctive to document your life via your camera.

Where are all the photos of these clear to see and describe and long lasting ghosts?

If there was ever a nail in the coffin of such phenomena I'd say the smart phone camera has been the nail that shows ghosts as external to the observers don't exist.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:17 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My and my spouses experience is suggestive of an explanation by plumbing or similar, but the noises we heard were one offs and never repeated.







The ghost stories I have all involve people not set up in any way to think "ghost" or which can be explained by a bear, racoon or other animal.
Have you snapped any photos of ghosts?
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:33 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If there was ever a nail in the coffin of such phenomena I'd say the smart phone camera has been the nail that shows ghosts as external to the observers don't exist.
XKCD agrees with you.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:34 AM   #155
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No ghost photos, none had cameras or phones or the presence of mind to photo who they saw, since they all thought they were seeing an actual person and by the time they realised it was not, it was too late.

In my case, we moved into a tied house unaware that one of the workers who had completed some renovations and redecoration prior to us moving in, had died in the house of a heart attack. It was a single manned police station in a remote part of Scotland.

My spouse became aware of someone walking around the house, the initial thought being someone had come into the house, part of which was a police office. That did happen occasionally, especially with locals who knew us well.

I then experienced that late one night, when someone walked down the main corridor. Then, one day, the footsteps walked out of the kitchen back door and that was it, no more instances.

It was only when I confessed to a colleague that we had heard footsteps that I was told about the workman who had died.

The footstep sounds were exactly the same as when someone really was walking down the corridor. They could not be attributed to plumbing.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:48 AM   #156
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Exactly the same? Are you sure?
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:59 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The footstep sounds were exactly the same as when someone really was walking down the corridor. They could not be attributed to plumbing.
It seems that if you do not have the imagination to think of any other explanation, then ghosts is your answer.

I find that rather feeble, given that it is well known that people often hear things that we misattribute to something else than the real cause. Just this weekend it happened at my house that we heard an animal rumbling that we at first thought originated in the house, then (after sticking our heads out of a windows) thought it came from a lorry, then from a plane, and only the day after found that the next-door neighbour had bought a new kind of machine for the garden that he had inexplicably started in the middle of the night.

Animals regularly move around on our roof with foot-steps that can seem human-like when they are not moving too fast.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:27 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Exactly the same? Are you sure?
Yes. Since part of the house was the police office and being where we were, doors were not always locked, we had had people just walk into the house.

The footsteps walked right past me, but I saw no one. The same thing happened to my spouse.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:31 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
It seems that if you do not have the imagination to think of any other explanation, then ghosts is your answer.
Considering the death in the house and the lack of any other explanation, I think ghost is a not unreasonable answer.

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I find that rather feeble, given that it is well known that people often hear things that we misattribute to something else than the real cause. Just this weekend it happened at my house that we heard an animal rumbling that we at first thought originated in the house, then (after sticking our heads out of a windows) thought it came from a lorry, then from a plane, and only the day after found that the next-door neighbour had bought a new kind of machine for the garden that he had inexplicably started in the middle of the night.

Animals regularly move around on our roof with foot-steps that can seem human-like when they are not moving too fast.
Nothing like that explains what we heard. We would have been delighted to find out what had caused the noises.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:32 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
It seems that if you do not have the imagination to think of any other explanation, then ghosts is your answer...
So is God, leprechauns, and gossamer pixies; all equally reasonable.
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