[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero - Page 10

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

The Conservative party doesn't have a majority.

Dave

What happened to the 317 members and the coalition they formed with DUP?

They got 289 votes today.
Where did they go?

Dave Rogers · 26th September 2019, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

What happened to the 317 members and the coalition they formed with DUP?

They got 289 votes today.
Where did they go?

You really haven't been following this, have you? They chucked 21 MP's out of the party for voting for the bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Those MPs are now independents, and the Conservative party is well short of having a majority.

Dave

Filippo Lippi · 26th September 2019, 09:23 AM

Bobs' [sic] gonna Bob

Lothian · 26th September 2019, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Link?

No it is a reference which is what you asked for. If you want a link I am happy to provide one of those annoying ' here let me Google that for you' things that make you feel like an idiot

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

You really haven't been following this, have you? They chucked 21 MP's out of the party for voting for the bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Those MPs are now independents, and the Conservative party is well short of having a majority.

Dave

No, I'm not really following. I live a few thousand miles away and no one would describe me as an anglophile.

Why don't the other parties want to suspend for the conference? Are they doing something important? Is it sticking it to the PM? Would having the conference while suspended provide some strategic advantage to conservatives others wish to avoid?

ETA: (Francophile, actually)

Captain_Swoop · 26th September 2019, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why didn't the Tory majority want to suspend?

They don't haver a majority. Boris kicked a whole load of MPs out.

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

They don't haver a majority. Boris kicked a whole load of MPs out.

Why would those kicked out oppose suspension?

Lothian · 26th September 2019, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why would those kicked out oppose suspension?

They were kicked out for wanting to avoid a hard brexit. An election would probably mean a hard brexit as Boris would time it so that we left by default.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 26th September 2019, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why would those kicked out oppose suspension?

Becaude they just took the government to court to get parliament to sit and would look ******* stupid suspending it days later so the Tories can have a shindig.

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Becaude they just took the government to court to get parliament to sit and would look ******* stupid suspending it days later so the Tories can have a shindig.

Are all the other shindigs done?

Mojo · 26th September 2019, 11:07 AM

Yup.

Pixel42 · 26th September 2019, 11:07 AM

Parliament have just returned to work after being unlawfully suspended against their will. You can't really blame them for refusing to immediately suspend themselves for the convenience of the bugger responsible.

Mojo · 26th September 2019, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why would those kicked out oppose suspension?

You think they’ll be going to the conference of a party that’s kicked them out? See the observation from Mr Morganfield.

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

You think they’ll be going to the conference of a party that’s kicked them out? See the observation from Mr Morganfield.

I don't see why you would impair the ability of others to go to a party you can't attend other than being small.

Lothian · 26th September 2019, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I don't see why you would impair the ability of others to go to a party you can't attend other than being small.

They haven't stopped anyone going to the party. All Tories have have a free choice work or party.

Mojo · 26th September 2019, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I don't see why you would impair the ability of others to go to a party you can't attend other than being small.

Just think of it as being a bit like seeing a thread about something you don’t really understand and can’t be bothered to learn about, and bogging it down with pointless questions.

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

They haven't stopped anyone going to the party. All Tories have have a free choice work or party.

I didn't use the word stop.

Nessie · 26th September 2019, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not to the idea that prorogation is common law.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/livi.../prorogation1/

"In centuries past, the Sovereign used the power of prorogation to suit his own purposes, both summoning Parliament so it could authorise taxes, and proroguing it to limit its activities and power."

Quote:

Link?

Summary

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/do...92-summary.pdf

"On 11thSeptember, the High Court of England and Wales delivered judgment dismissing Mrs Miller’s claim on the ground that the issue was not justiciable in a court of law. That same day, the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland announced its decision that the issue was justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government, and that it, and any prorogation which followed it, were unlawful and thus void and of no effect...."

The key word is justiciable. Then;

"The Government argues that the Inner House could not do that because the prorogation was a “proceeding in Parliament” which, under the Bill of Rights of 1688 cannot be impugned or questioned in any court. But it is quite clear that the prorogation is not a proceeding in Parliament. It takes place in the House of Lords chamber in the presence of members of both Houses, but it is not their decision. It is something which has been imposed upon them from outside. It is not something on which members can speak or vote. It is not the core or essential business of Parliament which the Bill of Rights protects. Quite the reverse: it brings that core or essential business to an end."

It was the Monarch who had the power to prorogue and as power moved from the Monarch to Parliament, the power moved as well, such that now the Monarch's role is purely ceremonial.

Common law is "the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes."

Nessie · 26th September 2019, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Parliament have just returned to work after being unlawfully suspended against their will. You can't really blame them for refusing to immediately suspend themselves for the convenience of the bugger responsible.

It will make the Tory Party Conference interesting and possibly not very well attended, as the MPs will need to be at Westminster.

Captain_Swoop · 26th September 2019, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

It will make the Tory Party Conference interesting and possibly not very well attended, as the MPs will need to be at Westminster.

Why? they don't have a majority anyway.

Lothian · 26th September 2019, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I didn't use the word stop.

And....? the choice is still that for each MP. If they want to party nothing that parliament did affects that in any way.

If you have tickets for Beyonce and Taylor Swift decides to have a gig on the same night that doesn't impair your ability to see Beyonce. It is not Taylor Swift's fault if you decide you would rather see her and give up your Beyonce Tickets. It is your choice you are free to see who you want.

P.J. Denyer · 26th September 2019, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

No, I'm not really following. I live a few thousand miles away and no one would describe me as an anglophile.

Why don't the other parties want to suspend for the conference? Are they doing something important? Is it sticking it to the PM? Would having the conference while suspended provide some strategic advantage to conservatives others wish to avoid?

ETA: (Francophile, actually)

They are the Parliament of a country facing arguably it's greatest crisis since the Second World War. Yes, they are doing something important.

psionl0 · 26th September 2019, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

"In centuries past, the Sovereign used the power of prorogation to suit his own purposes, both summoning Parliament so it could authorise taxes, and proroguing it to limit its activities and power."

The words "common law" don't appear in that quote.

Originally Posted by Nessie

"On 11thSeptember, the High Court of England and Wales delivered judgment dismissing Mrs Miller’s claim on the ground that the issue was not justiciable in a court of law. That same day, the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland announced its decision that the issue was justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government, and that it, and any prorogation which followed it, were unlawful and thus void and of no effect...."

The words "common law don't appear in that quote.

Originally Posted by Nessie

"The Government argues that the Inner House could not do that because the prorogation was a “proceeding in Parliament” which, under the Bill of Rights of 1688 cannot be impugned or questioned in any court. But it is quite clear that the prorogation is not a proceeding in Parliament. It takes place in the House of Lords chamber in the presence of members of both Houses, but it is not their decision. It is something which has been imposed upon them from outside. It is not something on which members can speak or vote. It is not the core or essential business of Parliament which the Bill of Rights protects. Quite the reverse: it brings that core or essential business to an end."

The words "common law don't appear in that quote.

Originally Posted by Nessie

It was the Monarch who had the power to prorogue and as power moved from the Monarch to Parliament, the power moved as well, such that now the Monarch's role is purely ceremonial.

Common law is "the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes."

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law".

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

They are the Parliament of a country facing arguably it's greatest crisis since the Second World War. Yes, they are doing something important.

That describes who they are. But what are they doing?

Nessie · 26th September 2019, 11:55 AM

There was a party political broadcast the Brexit party this evening. Farage complained that May's deal was still giving the EU too much power over the UK and that Johnson is just pushing for something very similar. With time running out I waited with bated breath as to what Farage's plan was.... It turns out he wants a "clean break" so that the UK will get all its power and sovereignty back.

That's it. Farage is selling no deal as if it is a deal. But it is not. There will need to be negotiations to get trade deals, travel, residency, customs etc etc

He is a snake oil salesman.

dudalb · 26th September 2019, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

https://www.parliament.uk/about/livi.../prorogation1/

"In centuries past, the Sovereign used the power of prorogation to suit his own purposes, both summoning Parliament so it could authorise taxes, and proroguing it to limit its activities and power."

As anybody with any knowledge of British history should know.....
Hell, anybody who watched "The Tudors" should know that...,

dudalb · 26th September 2019, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

They are the Parliament of a country facing arguably it's greatest crisis since the Second World War. Yes, they are doing something important.

Hell, I think it is the greatest constituoinal crisis since The Great Civil War...

Nessie · 26th September 2019, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The words "common law" don't appear in that quote.

The words "common law don't appear in that quote.

The words "common law don't appear in that quote.

The quotes explain how proroguing is a law, not a parliamentary procedure (it is justiciable) and how that has developed over time rather than by statute, which is how we get common law.

Quote:

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law".

Common law originates with the laws passed by the Monarch. Common law precedes the appearance of Parliament. The introduction of Parliament and its development as the body that passed laws in the country resulted in what we call statutory laws.

Mojo · 26th September 2019, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The words "common law" don't appear in that quote.

The words "common law don't appear in that quote.

The words "common law don't appear in that quote.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law".

Is there legislation governing the procedure for prorogation?

GlennB · 26th September 2019, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law".

Edited by kmortis:

Removed to comply with Rule 12

It wasn't the 'exercise of power by the monarch' that was found to be unlawful in this case - she just did what she was told - but the government's decision.

"In law, common law (also known as judicial precedent or judge-made law) is the body of law derived from judicial decisions of courts and similar tribunals."

[SNIP]

Nessie · 26th September 2019, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Is there legislation governing the procedure for prorogation?

No. I have already linked to Parliament's own website where it has prorogation under the evolution of Parliament and its short history of how prorogation started "in centuries past" and how it has developed.

Interestingly, the website has prorogation in the section titled "Offices and Ceremonies"

https://www.parliament.uk/about/livi...nd-ceremonies/

That is what was being argued by some Tories, such as Sir Christopher Chope (he of upskirting fame). They did not think proroguing was a law, they thought it was a procedure set by Parliament. But the SC pointed out that proroguing was a power not set by Parliament, it came from the Monarch and as such is justiciable. It is a law created that allows the Monarch to end Parliaments.

Garrison · 26th September 2019, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

There was a party political broadcast the Brexit party this evening. Farage complained that May's deal was still giving the EU too much power over the UK and that Johnson is just pushing for something very similar. With time running out I waited with bated breath as to what Farage's plan was.... It turns out he wants a "clean break" so that the UK will get all its power and sovereignty back.

That's it. Farage is selling no deal as if it is a deal. But it is not. There will need to be negotiations to get trade deals, travel, residency, customs etc etc

He is a snake oil salesman.

And by sovereignty he means MPs and Judges who will simply nod and go along while Farage and his cronies take a wrecking ball to the economy to help his friends in the City asset strip the UK.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 26th September 2019, 12:46 PM

Ok let me see... reasons for Brexit.

We save 350m a week.... and lose far more in GDP
We take back control of our borders... but have to leave the land border wide open to comply with the GFA and all thr others the same to comply with WTO rules
We take back sovereignty of our law... and then undermine the judiciary who oversee it and promise to break it when ee dont like what it says.
We take back control from the undemocratic EU ... and our unelected PM suspends our own elected parliament so they wont pass legislation he doesnt agree with
And.... well there was something about vaping and buying carrots from Botswana. And ... well thats about it.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 26th September 2019, 12:59 PM

And its looking more and more like this thing with Boris wasnt just paying 126k to get his dick wet but rather siphoning off funds to an alt right glee club.

Darat · 26th September 2019, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Hell, I think it is the greatest constituoinal crisis since The Great Civil War...

You mean the 1775 one?

a_unique_person · 26th September 2019, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why didn't the Tory majority want to suspend?

The Tories that Johnson kicked out recently won't be welcome at any Tory conference.

jimbob · 26th September 2019, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Why? they don't have a majority anyway.

At work I said that I could see it being a problem because if there were some votes during the conference, the government might suffer a humiliating defeat, and that would be um business as usual

jimbob · 26th September 2019, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Hell, I think it is the greatest constituoinal crisis since The Great Civil War...

There is a reason why the Scottish Court of Session referred to 17th Century precedent.

dudalb · 26th September 2019, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

There is a reason why the Scottish Court of Session referred to 17th Century precedent.

Maybe Boris should take damn good look at that honking big statue of Oliver Cromwell outside of the Houses Of Parliament and remember why it is there...

BobTheCoward · 26th September 2019, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

The Tories that Johnson kicked out recently won't be welcome at any Tory conference.

Why is that a reason to vote no?

26th September 2019, 09:16 AM	#362
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,368	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward What happened to the 317 members and the coalition they formed with DUP? They got 289 votes today. Where did they go? You really haven't been following this, have you? They chucked 21 MP's out of the party for voting for the bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Those MPs are now independents, and the Conservative party is well short of having a majority. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

26th September 2019, 09:23 AM	#363
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,365	Bobs' [sic] gonna Bob
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

26th September 2019, 09:36 AM	#364
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,133	Originally Posted by psionl0 Link? No it is a reference which is what you asked for. If you want a link I am happy to provide one of those annoying ' here let me Google that for you' things that make you feel like an idiot
	Last edited by Lothian; 26th September 2019 at 09:45 AM.

26th September 2019, 09:38 AM	#365
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers You really haven't been following this, have you? They chucked 21 MP's out of the party for voting for the bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Those MPs are now independents, and the Conservative party is well short of having a majority. Dave No, I'm not really following. I live a few thousand miles away and no one would describe me as an anglophile. Why don't the other parties want to suspend for the conference? Are they doing something important? Is it sticking it to the PM? Would having the conference while suspended provide some strategic advantage to conservatives others wish to avoid? ETA: (Francophile, actually)
	Last edited by BobTheCoward; 26th September 2019 at 09:42 AM.

26th September 2019, 09:59 AM	#369
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why would those kicked out oppose suspension? Becaude they just took the government to court to get parliament to sit and would look ******* stupid suspending it days later so the Tories can have a shindig.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

26th September 2019, 09:12 AM	#361
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers The Conservative party doesn't have a majority. Dave What happened to the 317 members and the coalition they formed with DUP? They got 289 votes today. Where did they go?

26th September 2019, 09:48 AM	#366
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,940	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why didn't the Tory majority want to suspend? They don't haver a majority. Boris kicked a whole load of MPs out.

26th September 2019, 09:50 AM	#367
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop They don't haver a majority. Boris kicked a whole load of MPs out. Why would those kicked out oppose suspension?

26th September 2019, 09:59 AM	#368
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,133	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why would those kicked out oppose suspension? They were kicked out for wanting to avoid a hard brexit. An election would probably mean a hard brexit as Boris would time it so that we left by default.

26th September 2019, 11:00 AM	#370
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Becaude they just took the government to court to get parliament to sit and would look ******* stupid suspending it days later so the Tories can have a shindig. Are all the other shindigs done?

26th September 2019, 11:07 AM	#371
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,777	Yup.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

26th September 2019, 11:07 AM	#372
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,015	Parliament have just returned to work after being unlawfully suspended against their will. You can't really blame them for refusing to immediately suspend themselves for the convenience of the bugger responsible.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

26th September 2019, 11:13 AM	#373
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,777	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why would those kicked out oppose suspension? You think they’ll be going to the conference of a party that’s kicked them out? See the observation from Mr Morganfield.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

26th September 2019, 11:16 AM	#374
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by Mojo You think they’ll be going to the conference of a party that’s kicked them out? See the observation from Mr Morganfield. I don't see why you would impair the ability of others to go to a party you can't attend other than being small.

26th September 2019, 11:26 AM	#375
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,133	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I don't see why you would impair the ability of others to go to a party you can't attend other than being small. They haven't stopped anyone going to the party. All Tories have have a free choice work or party.

26th September 2019, 11:28 AM	#376
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,777	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I don't see why you would impair the ability of others to go to a party you can't attend other than being small. Just think of it as being a bit like seeing a thread about something you don’t really understand and can’t be bothered to learn about, and bogging it down with pointless questions.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

26th September 2019, 11:36 AM	#377
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by Lothian They haven't stopped anyone going to the party. All Tories have have a free choice work or party. I didn't use the word stop.

26th September 2019, 11:38 AM	#378
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,009	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not to the idea that prorogation is common law. https://www.parliament.uk/about/livi.../prorogation1/ "In centuries past, the Sovereign used the power of prorogation to suit his own purposes, both summoning Parliament so it could authorise taxes, and proroguing it to limit its activities and power." Quote: Link? Summary https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/do...92-summary.pdf "On 11thSeptember, the High Court of England and Wales delivered judgment dismissing Mrs Miller’s claim on the ground that the issue was not justiciable in a court of law. That same day, the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland announced its decision that the issue was justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government, and that it, and any prorogation which followed it, were unlawful and thus void and of no effect...." The key word is justiciable. Then; "The Government argues that the Inner House could not do that because the prorogation was a “proceeding in Parliament” which, under the Bill of Rights of 1688 cannot be impugned or questioned in any court. But it is quite clear that the prorogation is not a proceeding in Parliament. It takes place in the House of Lords chamber in the presence of members of both Houses, but it is not their decision. It is something which has been imposed upon them from outside. It is not something on which members can speak or vote. It is not the core or essential business of Parliament which the Bill of Rights protects. Quite the reverse: it brings that core or essential business to an end." It was the Monarch who had the power to prorogue and as power moved from the Monarch to Parliament, the power moved as well, such that now the Monarch's role is purely ceremonial. Common law is "the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes."
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

26th September 2019, 11:40 AM	#379
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,009	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Parliament have just returned to work after being unlawfully suspended against their will. You can't really blame them for refusing to immediately suspend themselves for the convenience of the bugger responsible. It will make the Tory Party Conference interesting and possibly not very well attended, as the MPs will need to be at Westminster.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

26th September 2019, 11:45 AM	#380
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,940	Originally Posted by Nessie It will make the Tory Party Conference interesting and possibly not very well attended, as the MPs will need to be at Westminster. Why? they don't have a majority anyway.

26th September 2019, 11:48 AM	#381
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,133	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I didn't use the word stop. And....? the choice is still that for each MP. If they want to party nothing that parliament did affects that in any way. If you have tickets for Beyonce and Taylor Swift decides to have a gig on the same night that doesn't impair your ability to see Beyonce. It is not Taylor Swift's fault if you decide you would rather see her and give up your Beyonce Tickets. It is your choice you are free to see who you want.

26th September 2019, 11:51 AM	#382
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,855	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward No, I'm not really following. I live a few thousand miles away and no one would describe me as an anglophile. Why don't the other parties want to suspend for the conference? Are they doing something important? Is it sticking it to the PM? Would having the conference while suspended provide some strategic advantage to conservatives others wish to avoid? ETA: (Francophile, actually) They are the Parliament of a country facing arguably it's greatest crisis since the Second World War. Yes, they are doing something important.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,855	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

26th September 2019, 11:53 AM	#383
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,010	Originally Posted by Nessie "In centuries past, the Sovereign used the power of prorogation to suit his own purposes, both summoning Parliament so it could authorise taxes, and proroguing it to limit its activities and power." The words "common law" don't appear in that quote. Originally Posted by Nessie "On 11thSeptember, the High Court of England and Wales delivered judgment dismissing Mrs Miller’s claim on the ground that the issue was not justiciable in a court of law. That same day, the Inner House of the Court of Session in Scotland announced its decision that the issue was justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government, and that it, and any prorogation which followed it, were unlawful and thus void and of no effect...." The words "common law don't appear in that quote. Originally Posted by Nessie "The Government argues that the Inner House could not do that because the prorogation was a “proceeding in Parliament” which, under the Bill of Rights of 1688 cannot be impugned or questioned in any court. But it is quite clear that the prorogation is not a proceeding in Parliament. It takes place in the House of Lords chamber in the presence of members of both Houses, but it is not their decision. It is something which has been imposed upon them from outside. It is not something on which members can speak or vote. It is not the core or essential business of Parliament which the Bill of Rights protects. Quite the reverse: it brings that core or essential business to an end." The words "common law don't appear in that quote. Originally Posted by Nessie It was the Monarch who had the power to prorogue and as power moved from the Monarch to Parliament, the power moved as well, such that now the Monarch's role is purely ceremonial. Common law is "the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes." The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law".
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th September 2019, 11:54 AM	#384
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,249	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer They are the Parliament of a country facing arguably it's greatest crisis since the Second World War. Yes, they are doing something important. That describes who they are. But what are they doing?

26th September 2019, 11:55 AM	#385
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,009	There was a party political broadcast the Brexit party this evening. Farage complained that May's deal was still giving the EU too much power over the UK and that Johnson is just pushing for something very similar. With time running out I waited with bated breath as to what Farage's plan was.... It turns out he wants a "clean break" so that the UK will get all its power and sovereignty back. That's it. Farage is selling no deal as if it is a deal. But it is not. There will need to be negotiations to get trade deals, travel, residency, customs etc etc He is a snake oil salesman.
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26th September 2019, 12:00 PM	#386
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by Nessie https://www.parliament.uk/about/livi.../prorogation1/ "In centuries past, the Sovereign used the power of prorogation to suit his own purposes, both summoning Parliament so it could authorise taxes, and proroguing it to limit its activities and power." As anybody with any knowledge of British history should know..... Hell, anybody who watched "The Tudors" should know that...,
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26th September 2019, 12:02 PM	#387
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer They are the Parliament of a country facing arguably it's greatest crisis since the Second World War. Yes, they are doing something important. Hell, I think it is the greatest constituoinal crisis since The Great Civil War...
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

26th September 2019, 12:04 PM	#388
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,009	Originally Posted by psionl0 The words "common law" don't appear in that quote. The words "common law don't appear in that quote. The words "common law don't appear in that quote. The quotes explain how proroguing is a law, not a parliamentary procedure (it is justiciable) and how that has developed over time rather than by statute, which is how we get common law. Quote: The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law". Common law originates with the laws passed by the Monarch. Common law precedes the appearance of Parliament. The introduction of Parliament and its development as the body that passed laws in the country resulted in what we call statutory laws.
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26th September 2019, 12:06 PM	#389
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,777	Originally Posted by psionl0 The words "common law" don't appear in that quote. The words "common law don't appear in that quote. The words "common law don't appear in that quote. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. The exercise of power by the monarch - whether at their own discretion or at the advice of their ministers is the antithesis of "common law". Is there legislation governing the procedure for prorogation?
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26th September 2019, 12:22 PM	#391
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,009	Originally Posted by Mojo Is there legislation governing the procedure for prorogation? No. I have already linked to Parliament's own website where it has prorogation under the evolution of Parliament and its short history of how prorogation started "in centuries past" and how it has developed. Interestingly, the website has prorogation in the section titled "Offices and Ceremonies" https://www.parliament.uk/about/livi...nd-ceremonies/ That is what was being argued by some Tories, such as Sir Christopher Chope (he of upskirting fame). They did not think proroguing was a law, they thought it was a procedure set by Parliament. But the SC pointed out that proroguing was a power not set by Parliament, it came from the Monarch and as such is justiciable. It is a law created that allows the Monarch to end Parliaments.
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26th September 2019, 12:27 PM	#392
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,531	Originally Posted by Nessie There was a party political broadcast the Brexit party this evening. Farage complained that May's deal was still giving the EU too much power over the UK and that Johnson is just pushing for something very similar. With time running out I waited with bated breath as to what Farage's plan was.... It turns out he wants a "clean break" so that the UK will get all its power and sovereignty back. That's it. Farage is selling no deal as if it is a deal. But it is not. There will need to be negotiations to get trade deals, travel, residency, customs etc etc He is a snake oil salesman. And by sovereignty he means MPs and Judges who will simply nod and go along while Farage and his cronies take a wrecking ball to the economy to help his friends in the City asset strip the UK.
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26th September 2019, 12:46 PM	#393
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Ok let me see... reasons for Brexit. We save 350m a week.... and lose far more in GDP We take back control of our borders... but have to leave the land border wide open to comply with the GFA and all thr others the same to comply with WTO rules We take back sovereignty of our law... and then undermine the judiciary who oversee it and promise to break it when ee dont like what it says. We take back control from the undemocratic EU ... and our unelected PM suspends our own elected parliament so they wont pass legislation he doesnt agree with And.... well there was something about vaping and buying carrots from Botswana. And ... well thats about it.
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26th September 2019, 12:59 PM	#394
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	And its looking more and more like this thing with Boris wasnt just paying 126k to get his dick wet but rather siphoning off funds to an alt right glee club.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

26th September 2019, 01:51 PM	#395
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,092	Originally Posted by dudalb Hell, I think it is the greatest constituoinal crisis since The Great Civil War... You mean the 1775 one?
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26th September 2019, 01:51 PM	#396
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,044	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why didn't the Tory majority want to suspend? The Tories that Johnson kicked out recently won't be welcome at any Tory conference.
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