IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

Closed Thread
Old 20th November 2020, 03:01 PM   #601
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,719
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Meh. I'm just going to continue pointing out the selective interpretations, the blatant hypocrisy, and the willingness to just pretend that one side is all good and the other side is all bad.

Personally, I don't trust either of the parties, I see them engaging in essentially the same strategies but employing different tactics. Mostly, i see the partisan supporters of each party being rabidly devoted and dogmatic about it.

So yeah - you're right. Clinton conceded on election night... after Podesta had told her supporters that they wouldn't do anything until all the votes were counted, and after having been prompted to do so by Obama (I miss him). And then, after having conceded, she jumped on board Stein's challenges to do recounts and challenge the legitimacy of the outcome, to appease her supporters that the Democrats had done everything possible to make sure they actually did lose for really reals.

So tell me, in complete honesty... If Trump had verbally conceded when the race was called... but had then gone ahead and challenged the counts in the key states... would you view him as benignly as you do Clinton? Or would you still insist that he was trying to do a coup and overthrow democracy? Be brutally honest with yourself on this one.
Merely asked for recounts without alleging stunning levels of fraud? Not a coup. Easy peasy.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:03 PM   #602
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which bits did the Reuters folks get wrong?
So you are doubling down on those cherries?

You are trying too hard. They didn't get bits wrong, they simply added no commentary to the factual description.

If you look at the whole Twitter feed of the reporter I linked to, you will see he posted joke after joke about what a fantasy it was of Trump's.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th November 2020 at 03:58 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:08 PM   #603
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,130
both sides are the same is absolutely ridiculous at this point.

if Trump had conceded and offered a respectful concession speech, and begun the transition, and not actively accusing his opponents and some of his allies of election fraud but still did recounts and somewhat reasonable court challenges of course people would view him differently.

in reality he's done none of those things. it's absurd to say he's acting basically the same as clinton and anyone who thinks differently is just biased.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:32 PM   #604
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


First, I didn't notice you were being dramatic until these last few posts.

Second, it's not the word "coup" that is the issue. So unless someone else is making the bolded argument, it certainly isn't mine.

So I'll wait to see if you are addressing someone else here.

In the meantime, the issue is, said refusal to leave office is Trump's con. The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible. It still isn't.
Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Perhaps We don't have the level of agreement I assumed we had.

What is you understanding of a con here?

What are the implications of your understanding of any of this as being a con.

I certainly don't think any of this is in good faith. Nothing has ever not been a con with Donnie. I'd say up until now (including everything leading up to his first term) it has been a mostly successful con (I mean, he had to settle for the Trump University part of the con but he did become president of the USA —in terms of success that's not a small thing). So yeah, I think it has all been a con but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you?

What does "The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible." even mean? None of this was a thing from a few months ago. He said the same since at least 2016, and he had been making non-stop statements by this point telegraphing pretty much exactly what he has tried to do, that's why they asked. From their perspective, they would have been failing as journalists had they not asked. He clearly wasn't joking in the non-responses he gave where he implied that he probably wouldn't concede. I guess that was a con. What does accepting that that was a con mean to me in practical terms? Do you think if only people had realized that this was a con he would have conceded? Do you think this shameless sociopath would say to himself "Oh my, people have finally figured out that I am a lying con man! I guess I better give up on this act!"?
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:34 PM   #605
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Certification for the state of Georgia should be happening in a couple of hours. Hopefully, that'll be the first domino to take down this clown show.
USA Today: Georgia election official certifies Biden victory

Can you imagine a couple of GOP legislator sycophants from MI wasting their political careers by overturning the voters' choice in their state? It's a guaranteed fail move because apparently it isn't allowed under state law.

Detroit News:
Quote:
"For them to do anything other than to respect the popular vote is a violation of their oath of office," Mitchell said. "They took an oath like I took an oath to the Constitution, but in their case to the state Constitution, and the laws of the state don’t say you get to appoint anyone you want." ....

But experts have said the deadlock would throw the certification issue into court.
IOW failure to certify the election would mean the case goes to court. It doesn't go to the legislature. There was a link about that earlier discussing just the Wayne County electors failing to certify the results that said the courts would go by the voters' choice.

So you would need the Republicans trying to help Trump when not only would it be a wasted effort because Trump needs more than MI, but it would also be unlikely to succeed based solely on MI State voting laws.

These two MI GOP legislators are getting a free trip and a tour of the WH. Hope they don't get COVID. I hear it's still going around in the WH.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:45 PM   #606
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Indeed.

I think the coup deniers are really underestimating how much of our system is reliant on people doing what they are supposed to do. The end of our system is as simple as people just choosing not to follow these expectations.
Just what exactly do you think is being denied?

As for the ease of the end of the system, do you think believing in a con manifested by a well known conman might be contributing to the problem? Whereas laughing at the conman, refusing to take him seriously is a way of resisting said democracy's downfall?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:50 PM   #607
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I guess the real question is "Does he have McConnell?"

That's really who we're all waiting for, isn't it? He's the person that can play the Senate games that change the outcome while still appearing legal.

I don't think he does, but I'd feel a lot better if ol' Mitch would just make a solid public statement that Trump is running out of viable challenges, and that he has no objection to logging the electoral votes.

I think he likes making everyone nervous and may have some incentive to keep the "stolen" narrative active. I just hope it's not to justify another obstructionist move.

Someone help me analyze this possibility--no matter how unthinkable it would be, isnt it his job to tally the electoral votes officially? What if he simply refuses to do so, so that on whatever key date there is not an EV majority for Biden? Not whether that would ruin him politically--just simply can it literally be done if he wants to be that bull-headed?
Judging from history, he only has McConnell until those two Senate seats in GA are decided.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:52 PM   #608
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In the absence of an actual Monarch, plenty Americans have the instinct to assume that if POTUS asks, it must be legal, and refusing would be illegal.
I am a little cynical about the American People a lot of time, but this is more then a little over the top. Cite some proof.
And your contempt for the "common man" is reaching the level of a Parry Member's contempt for the Proles in "1984".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 03:57 PM   #609
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So id Trump asks officials in various states to just ignore the popular on his say so that there's been massive fraud and they say no some people here seem to think that means everything's fine and that's not a problem because it didn't work?
I believe we are defining "a problem" differently.

It makes for a nice straw man to define "not a problem" the way your post does.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:01 PM   #610
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just what exactly do you think is being denied?

As for the ease of the end of the system, do you think believing in a con manifested by a well known conman might be contributing to the problem? Whereas laughing at the conman, refusing to take him seriously is a way of resisting said democracy's downfall?
What’s the hard line that Trump and his Republican enablers will not cross and how do you know they won’t cross it?

Because I would have thought sitting idly by while tens of thousands of Americans needlessly die would have been one such line.

I would have thought undermining the democratic process and sowing widespread distrust in our elections with absolutely bonkers conspiracy theories would have been one such line.

I would have thought actively obstructing the peaceful transition of the administration of a duly elected president would been one such line.

So tell me, where it this line? And how do you know it’s the line?
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:03 PM   #611
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,306
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You’ve not actually read those sites have you? I putting this forward as one of the links is a review of a book.
Course not. The first is a broken link.
Of the remaining four They are op-eds and thus of no value, unless one enjoys the bloviating that occur in such pieces.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:22 PM   #612
Shadowdweller
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,015
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And the coup-mongerers are really overestimating how fickle people are, and how much many people actually believe in and value integrity.

The "end of our system" requires a LOT of people to blatantly disregard everything they believe in and become literal traitors with no thought at all.
Upwards of 70 million people in this country just did that, guy.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:27 PM   #613
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,527
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What’s the hard line that Trump and his Republican enablers will not cross and how do you know they won’t cross it?

Because I would have thought sitting idly by while tens of thousands of Americans needlessly die would have been one such line.

I would have thought undermining the democratic process and sowing widespread distrust in our elections with absolutely bonkers conspiracy theories would have been one such line.

I would have thought actively obstructing the peaceful transition of the administration of a duly elected president would been one such line.

So tell me, where it this line? And how do you know it’s the line?
That's a ridiculous question. There is no hard line for all of them. If you are discussing remotely honestly, why would you pretend there must be?

To answer the ridiculous question in a fit of masochism: anything that requires a tiny bit of actual risk will send a Trumpanzee hiding under his bed. None have the conviction to back an actual coup, the penalties for sedition and treason being what they are.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:28 PM   #614
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,395
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Replying to article, not cosmicaug//

Again if Trump "Mr Beans" himself to a coup we're not less screwed then if he "Keyser Sozed" his way into a coup.

As with the "Oh well it's not like he succeeded" thing I don't know what the "Oh it's not like he's some criminal mastermind" gotcha is supposed to be.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I'm not getting what crow we're supposed to be eating because Trump's coup might not succeed.

The damage done to the trust in the US Democratic Process and the seeds planted for a future person to stage a more successful takeover of the US Government by just putting yes men in a few key positions is more than enough damage.

The whole "Hardy har lookit you being all dramatic he only got 96% of the way to a coup before getting bored and giving up" thing baffles me.
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Imagine if the VP was someone in the Dick Cheney mould rather than an empty suit like Pence? Trump spent 4 years lying and cheating and yet more people voted for him in 2020 than 2016. Only the sheer ineptitude of Trump's cronies has prevented him from totally subverting the democratic process.

For that matter imagine if the election had been genuinely close? We can laugh at him getting a couple of thousand votes thrown out in a state where the margin is 10s of 1000s, but what if that few thousand was the margin?
You can also bet that there are plenty of people watching for the stress points in this election. Sure, Trump is a “clown” so we all “expect” him to do stupid stuff like this which is essentially how he came to be president in 2016 (the Huff post for example put coverage of his election campaign in the entertainment section and all the networks loved him because he was great for ratings), but they didn’t take it seriously and he won.

Even if he craps out here (and yes, that is far more likely), as I said you can expect that the Republicans Ramsay Bolton is going to have a smoother route than their Joffrey because they will have figured out a better way to subvert the democratic process on the heels of this attempt.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:52 PM   #615
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a ridiculous question. There is no hard line for all of them. If you are discussing remotely honestly, why would you pretend there must be?

To answer the ridiculous question in a fit of masochism: anything that requires a tiny bit of actual risk will send a Trumpanzee hiding under his bed. None have the conviction to back an actual coup, the penalties for sedition and treason being what they are.
I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.

We are living through one of the darkest periods of American history that is causing untold suffering for hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people. The damage caused during the last four years hasn’t even fully manifested and will likely take a generation or more to undo.

People have earned the right to be concerned and express those concerns, even if some of those concerns seem far-fetched.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th November 2020 at 08:18 AM.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 04:55 PM   #616
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Those Michigan GOP officals Trump invited to the White House just stated that they see no reason to challenge the election results in Michigan.
Thank the GSM that Trump is so damn incompetent in his attempts to stage a coup.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 05:13 PM   #617
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,076
If we're down to spewing links, here's some relevant reading:

I Lived Through A Stupid Coup. America Is Having One Now
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 05:26 PM   #618
Susheel
Graduate Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 1,756
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.
...

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th November 2020 at 08:19 AM.
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 06:16 PM   #619
TheGoldcountry
Philosopher
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,892
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.

We are living through one of the darkest periods of American history that is causing untold suffering for hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people. The damage caused during the last four years hasn’t even fully manifested and will likely take a generation or more to undo.

People have earned the right to be concerned and express those concerns, even if some of those concerns seem far-fetched.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
.
Thank you.
__________________
I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th November 2020 at 08:20 AM.
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 06:21 PM   #620
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just what exactly do you think is being denied?

As for the ease of the end of the system, do you think believing in a con manifested by a well known conman might be contributing to the problem? Whereas laughing at the conman, refusing to take him seriously is a way of resisting said democracy's downfall?
Laughing by people with no power doesn't matter one bit.

Notice that a large majority of the Republican party, which wields significant power both at the national level and in key swing states of this election, are much more reticent to admit this plain truth that Biden won.

Recent news suggests that Trump is largely unsuccessful in swaying these local officials into going along with his plot. That's good news, but I would hope it is clear exactly how fragile our system is. A few Republican state officials in the right swing states could easily make this clear electoral victory for Biden a contested event.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 06:27 PM   #621
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,276
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Pointing out that trying to get recounts and challenging the results is not exactly uncommon is a reasonable and honest thing to do. The response is pretty much "Oh, but when Democrats do it, it's okay, because their motives are pure as the driven snow and they're doing it for all the right reasons!. And when Republicans do it, it's an evil attempted coup and everyone should go buy rifles and prepare themselves for the horrible violence that will be coming!".
I just don't think that's an accurate characterization of what's going on.

When it comes to trying to get recounts, there's very little pushback on Republicans. Georgia law provides for recounts. Ok. Have a recount. Wisconsin law has recounts, if you pay for them. Ok. Pay the fee, get a recount. You don't hear all sorts of pushback on those things.

What you hear pushback on is Trump's efforts to have ballots thrown out, to declare fraud, and even to simply ignore results, as with the meeting happening right now in the White House with Michigan legislators. Trump isn't asking for a recount in my state. He's trying to get the one and only count pushed aside.

I truly think that there is a difference in kind when it comes to what has been done in past elections, and what is being done now. There is a disconnect because there really is a huge difference in behavior.

That doesn't mean we actually have to do anything differently, because whatever Trump is up to, whether he's serious about retaining power, or stark raving mad, or just doing his biggest super-trolling performance yet, it will all be over in a few months.


ETA: Originally written before the Michigan legislators left the White House.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 06:33 PM   #622
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If we're down to spewing links, here's some relevant reading:

I Lived Through A Stupid Coup. America Is Having One Now


I almost wonder if this kind of stupid coup, like we had in Spain ages ago, might not be healthier to handle in the medium & long term.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 06:44 PM   #623
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
USA Today: Georgia election official certifies Biden victory

Can you imagine a couple of GOP legislator sycophants from MI wasting their political careers by overturning the voters' choice in their state? It's a guaranteed fail move because apparently it isn't allowed under state law.
If they thought that Trump was likely to have enough support to pull this off? Hell yeah, I can imagine that.

In fact, if Trump was not in such a weak position they could very well have concluded that it would be wasting their political careers to do otherwise.

Heck, they've come out with a statement contrary to this and I still don't trust them.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 07:13 PM   #624
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,887
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
For me, it's because BOTH SIDES of this stupid thing we call politics in the US have been leaning on raw emotion for many years. They preach interpretations of facts, inferences of meaning, and assumptions of motive. The news, BOTH SIDES OF IT, feeds you a set of mostly innocuous objective facts, but wraps them up in a narrative that leads you to an apophenic conclusion of OMG HE'S THE MOST EVILEST THING EVER in which your ability to critically think and to weigh evidence and recognize speculation has simply evaporated.

I'm an atheist, in all possible senses of the term. But for a great many people here on ISF, politics has become their religion. They are dogmatic about it. They proselytize their beliefs, and they decry a lack of agreement with their religion as heresy. And anyone who dares to point out the down sides and the risks of their crusade are demonized as infidels who support the great evil which only their true faith can combat.

ETA* This is the royal "you" at play here, although I am not excusing you from my tirade.
If a Democratic POTUS (and party) had conducted themselves with 1% of what we've seen the last 4+ years, and especially post election, you'd be apoplectic right now.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 07:15 PM   #625
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
If a Democratic POTUS (and party) had conducted themselves with 1% of what we've seen the last 4+ years, and especially post election, you'd be apoplectic right now.
THIS.
And love your avatar.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 07:39 PM   #626
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Perhaps We don't have the level of agreement I assumed we had.

What is you understanding of a con here?

What are the implications of your understanding of any of this as being a con.

I certainly don't think any of this is in good faith. Nothing has ever not been a con with Donnie. I'd say up until now (including everything leading up to his first term) it has been a mostly successful con (I mean, he had to settle for the Trump University part of the con but he did become president of the USA —in terms of success that's not a small thing). So yeah, I think it has all been a con but maybe that means something different to me than it does to you?

What does "The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible." even mean? None of this was a thing from a few months ago. He said the same since at least 2016, and he had been making non-stop statements by this point telegraphing pretty much exactly what he has tried to do, that's why they asked. From their perspective, they would have been failing as journalists had they not asked. He clearly wasn't joking in the non-responses he gave where he implied that he probably wouldn't concede. I guess that was a con. What does accepting that that was a con mean to me in practical terms? Do you think if only people had realized that this was a con he would have conceded? Do you think this shameless sociopath would say to himself "Oh my, people have finally figured out that I am a lying con man! I guess I better give up on this act!"?
Re the bolded, unless there were rumors he was planning not to concede, what was the story the news media was following up on? This story began back in 2016 when the actual story was, would Trump run on a third party ticket if he lost the primary? That was reasonable news story at the time.

How did that warp into, will Trump concede* the election if he loses? Those two things, running on a 3rd party ticket and not leaving office when you lose the election, are unrelated.

*Concede as in leave the building, it's a given he is incapable of acknowledging he lost.

So again, what story was the news media following except to make one up because it sells the news? Or, were they just going with the story Trump made up for them to follow?

Maybe we can give them a little slack after he stuffed that last justice onto the SCOTUS bench. All his failed challenges to get votes tossed were newsworthy. But again, at what point should the media give up following the con Trump is pulling on them and say, 'looks like nothing has a chance in hell of getting to the SCOTUS'.

Instead, in classic Trumpian fashion this business of state legislators changing the election outcome popped up. A proper news report would leave Trump out of the story (except as a background character) and investigate and report on how this would actually work, not what the theory was. Had it ever been done before? And what is the makeup of the relevant state legislatures and state election laws?

Had they done that, the story would have been a proper one: there are no visible roads to a 2nd term here.

Instead Trump is at the center of the story where he loves to be and where he plays the media like a fiddle: Will he do it? Is he making any progress? Oh look, two shiny Republicans are coming to the WH, what could it mean? That is what I mean by the press falling for it.


Of course he would not have conceded if we all just laughed at him.

But without the media reporting all his 'only barely credible-at-first-glance' stories, Trump would have had absolutely no fuel to boondoggle anyone with.


I must admit that the last couple of decades of minority rule by GOP maneuvers remains an unhealed wound in my brain. I have hope a slew of young new voters might remedy that though it's no guarantee. The RNC remains more highly skilled than we bungling Democrats who have yet to understand marketing (latest evidence being the horrible "defund the police" messaging).

But after a couple of those lawsuits failed to toss out legal votes, I became less concerned this was about clever Republicans and merely about Trump trying to pull off another con.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 07:56 PM   #627
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What’s the hard line that Trump and his Republican enablers will not cross and how do you know they won’t cross it?

Because I would have thought sitting idly by while tens of thousands of Americans needlessly die would have been one such line.

I would have thought undermining the democratic process and sowing widespread distrust in our elections with absolutely bonkers conspiracy theories would have been one such line.

I would have thought actively obstructing the peaceful transition of the administration of a duly elected president would been one such line.

So tell me, where it this line? And how do you know it’s the line?
All of those "I would have thought" sentences are things I agree with. And more than 70 million idiots didn't think it mattered.

But as for the first question, it's a different matter. Would a bunch of Trump sycophants take up arms and offer to follow him to civil war? There are probably some.

But that isn't the issue.

First was can Trump get a vote challenge to the SCOTUS and bask in the glory of favors paid back to him? That was his fantasy. That failed.

Can Trump get state legislators to go against their own interests and try to take over their state's electors?

The answer to that could have been resolved with a decent news media investigation. It has recently come to light that no, in MI they can't do that. Their state election laws don't allow it and once again Trump is back to a losing court case.

GA's GOP SoS refused such an attempt to toss out votes early on. So that state was out.

Have any reporters actually gone beyond 'here's the theory' to all the reasons that no, that cannot be done?

That's the line I am talking about that can't be crossed. It has nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with the system.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 08:13 PM   #628
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If we're down to spewing links, here's some relevant reading:

I Lived Through A Stupid Coup. America Is Having One Now
Meh.

I don't see the parallels, frankly. Despite being described as a stable democracy, Sri Lanka isn't exactly one. They were fighting Tamil Tiger rebels until 2009.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 08:17 PM   #629
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,887
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Meh.

I don't see the parallels, frankly. Despite being described as a stable democracy, Sri Lanka isn't exactly one. They were fighting Tamil Tiger rebels until 2009.
Apparently, genius isn't required to catastrophically undermine democratic institutions. Right?
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 09:53 PM   #630
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,527
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I like how you start out by claiming it’s dishonest to expect you to know where the line is immediately followed up by you telling us where the line is.
And I like how you pretend that the vague notion of 'risk' is a hard line.

Quote:
We are living through one of the darkest periods of American history that is causing untold suffering for hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people. The damage caused during the last four years hasn’t even fully manifested and will likely take a generation or more to undo.

People have earned the right to be concerned and express those concerns, even if some of those concerns seem far-fetched.
Agreed, absolutely. And? Oh, wait...you think this is johnny karate's personal Echo Chamber? Bad news, bud; it's a discussion thread. Some discussion...and yes, even argument...might offend your delicate sensibilities. I've heard it said that you find comfort with those you agree with, and growth with those whom you don't. You've made it clear what you value.

Quote:
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
As you said, these are dark times, and yes, I'll take a mean-spirited laugh at watching the soon-to-be-ex-POTUS humiliate himself on the International stage, considering his contribution to said darkness. But if you think I am lecturing, you're a damned fool. Many here are still tilting at the Trump windmill.

I'm saying we should relish this. Shout it loud and proud, and make sure every MAGA hat wearer sees, in high resolution, the kind of sniveling cowardly Loser they have been cheerleading for four long years. Sear it in the mind of every pick 'em up driver who is hastily rolling up their Trump flag. They backed a weakling, a petty tyrant, and they were entirely in the wrong Make sure they remember this.

Or, you know, keep entertaining this exciting fantasy about him having the power to establish a ******* coup.

I'll cop to being a smug jerk-off, tho. And as one to another, I hope you enjoy your nail-biting. He's just so powerful! I'll be over here watching him wipe his last shreds of dignity away like a cheap spray tan.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th November 2020 at 08:20 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th November 2020, 10:15 PM   #631
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
MI state legislators shoot Trump down right outside the WH doors. Looks like a whole slew of them took the WH tour. Maybe they wanted group support.

Has Trump even made a move toward corrupting AZ or NV legislators?

Trump is going to give up soon if he hasn't already.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 01:49 AM   #632
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,993
Chris Hayes has a good piece today about how Trump is weaponizing his claims the election was rigged. These are short clips of his piece.

He started with showing all the GOP Senators who said the voters should decide if they wanted to impeach Trump by voting him out, not the Senate.
Let the voters decide They need to hear themselves. They need reminding what they said then and what they are not saying now.


Next he talked about the disinformation bubble and how Trump was weaponizing it.
How do you govern when half the country is trapped in a disinformation bubble?


He went on to talk about Trump attempting a coup using Republican minions. He made it clear multiple times that it would not work. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences. This is what we need to pay attention to IMO.
‘Cowardly’: Chris Hayes on how Trump’s silent enablers are complicit in coup attempt

The MSM is getting stronger with messaging that the 'coup' has not and will not succeed. That's what they should be doing.


Remember simpler times in the JREF when the issues were teaching evolution in school and exposing the consequences of anti-vaxxers? Sigh.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 02:02 AM   #633
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,395
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Chris Hayes has a good piece today about how Trump is weaponizing his claims the election was rigged. These are short clips of his piece.

He started with showing all the GOP Senators who said the voters should decide if they wanted to impeach Trump by voting him out, not the Senate.
Let the voters decide They need to hear themselves. They need reminding what they said then and what they are not saying now.


Next he talked about the disinformation bubble and how Trump was weaponizing it.
How do you govern when half the country is trapped in a disinformation bubble?


He went on to talk about Trump attempting a coup using Republican minions. He made it clear multiple times that it would not work. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences. This is what we need to pay attention to IMO.
‘Cowardly’: Chris Hayes on how Trump’s silent enablers are complicit in coup attempt

The MSM is getting stronger with messaging that the 'coup' has not and will not succeed. That's what they should be doing.


Remember simpler times in the JREF when the issues were teaching evolution in school and exposing the consequences of anti-vaxxers? Sigh.
So you are finally coming to agree with him that there is a coup attempt and that it is a serious matter.

Looks like you may yet earn your light side badge.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 07:48 AM   #634
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,395
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump is going to give up soon if he hasn't already.
You have been saying this for the last two weeks.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 08:00 AM   #635
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 393
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He started with showing all the GOP Senators who said the voters should decide if they wanted to impeach Trump by voting him out, not the Senate.
Let the voters decide They need to hear themselves. They need reminding what they said then and what they are not saying now.
Because that worked so well on Lindsey Graham, right?

Hypocrisy is not a rule they are playing by.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 08:12 AM   #636
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,719
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Course not. The first is a broken link.
Of the remaining four They are op-eds and thus of no value, unless one enjoys the bloviating that occur in such pieces.
I have to disagree that op-eds have no value. The question is whether the Republicans are more distrustful of democracy than Democrats. Looking at the expressed opinions of Democrats (or at least those who dislike Trump) seems quite appropriate to me.

That said, I don't reckon that these articles express any opinions comparable to overturning state results in the state legislatures. I haven't read most of them. If some were advocating faithless EC electors, then perhaps that's pretty similar.

I admit that I was more ambivalent about faithless electors than I am about using state legislatures to deny the vote. I still am, to some extent, since the whole reason for turning to the legislatures is based on the lie that the election was fixed. The argument in favor of faithless electors is that their job was to select the candidate for the state. They were chosen on the basis of their suitability to do this.

But I must admit that the historic purpose of the electors is much removed from their use these days and overturning an election by convincing the electors that the candidate is unfit is mighty suspect, barring startling revelations between election and the casting of EC votes. I reckon that had there been faithless electors in 2016, we would be in a far worse situation than we already are.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 08:16 AM   #637
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,692
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I reckon that had there been faithless electors in 2016, we would be in a far worse situation than we already are.
There were ten. 3 were invalidated under state level laws, the others stood.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 08:26 AM   #638
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Quote:
More GOP Senators Have COVID Than Have Acknowledged That Joe Biden Won
https://news.yahoo.com/republican-se...st_sjwumo1bpf4

It remains an open question how long the GOP is going to play along with this nakedly opportunistic CT that Trump actually won, but recent history shows they are pretty comfortable with denying reality when it suits them.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 08:31 AM   #639
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Time to pull your heads out of the sand, it's a coup attempt no matter how you slice it.

Quote:
President Trump is using the power of his office to try to reverse the results of the election, orchestrating a far-reaching pressure campaign to persuade Republican officials in Michigan, Georgia and elsewhere to overturn the will of voters in what critics decried Thursday as an unprecedented subversion of democracy.

After courts rejected the Trump campaign’s baseless allegations of widespread voter fraud, the president is now trying to remain in power with a wholesale assault on the integrity of the vote by spreading misinformation and trying to persuade loyal Republicans to manipulate the electoral system on his behalf.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5c0_story.html

This isn't the editorial section btw, just plain old news reporting. The soft-coup attempt is simply a fact at this point.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st November 2020, 09:03 AM   #640
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
All of those "I would have thought" sentences are things I agree with. And more than 70 million idiots didn't think it mattered.

But as for the first question, it's a different matter. Would a bunch of Trump sycophants take up arms and offer to follow him to civil war? There are probably some.

But that isn't the issue.

First was can Trump get a vote challenge to the SCOTUS and bask in the glory of favors paid back to him? That was his fantasy. That failed.

Can Trump get state legislators to go against their own interests and try to take over their state's electors?

The answer to that could have been resolved with a decent news media investigation. It has recently come to light that no, in MI they can't do that. Their state election laws don't allow it and once again Trump is back to a losing court case.

GA's GOP SoS refused such an attempt to toss out votes early on. So that state was out.

Have any reporters actually gone beyond 'here's the theory' to all the reasons that no, that cannot be done?

That's the line I am talking about that can't be crossed. It has nothing to do with Republicans and everything to do with the system.
I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:24 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.