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Old 25th March 2020, 06:44 AM   #81
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I don't think the moving of preteen pocket change from coins to debit/credit cards is going to cause some sort of mass mugging uptick.

On a related note anyone who's in the... I dunno about "25 and under" or so demographic is already going way more comfortable with a phone app then either cash or debit/credit card and they already have phones with passwords on them so there's a net gain/loss in security.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:11 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
When criminals rob children they get all the cash in the pocket. But when they rob the child of a debit card they get all the cash in the account. This is because ATMs give out cash and the debit card will be used at an ATM by the criminal.
Not in a cashless society, although they could use it for contactless transactions until the card is reported stolen.

The bigger worry, I'd have thought, would be online scams and scam apps, similar to the problems with microtransactions in games.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:29 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
On a related note anyone who's in the... I dunno about "25 and under" or so demographic is already going way more comfortable with a phone app then either cash or debit/credit card and they already have phones with passwords on them so there's a net gain/loss in security.
Yeah, I think that things like Apple Pay will eventually make cards obsolete, but the timescale for that is longer.

It's already available on phones and watches, can be used in shops, can be used to transfer money between people directly, and can be used to pay for transport. It's more secure, too, because to use the watch you need a PIN (so this would be the equivalent of the suggestion of stealing someone's cards and extracting the PIN from them, rather than just being able to use contactless), and on the phone it requires face ID, so nobody who steals the device will be able to use it at all. Or, at least, it requires some serious know-how and effort, so a mugger is unlikely to be able to use it to buy a packet of fags. It took the FBI 5 days to get into the iPhone of one of Trump's cohorts (I forget which one off the top of my head), so I suspect that muggers would likely take longer.

But it still all seems rather novel for many, and I don't see it being adopted as a standard any time soon.

Cards, however, are something that even the elderly are familiar and comfortable with. They may prefer cash, but almost everybody would be able to cope. So I think that a move to a card-based society is credible in the relatively short-term.
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:00 AM   #84
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One thing that occurred to me re the move to a cashless economy is that it might hasten the move away from multiple currencies. If/when the UK rejoins the EU, for example, I doubt there will be the same degree of resistance to switching to the Euro if it's all just numbers on a screen by then.
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:14 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
One thing that occurred to me re the move to a cashless economy is that it might hasten the move away from multiple currencies. If/when the UK rejoins the EU, for example, I doubt there will be the same degree of resistance to switching to the Euro if it's all just numbers on a screen by then.
That's very true. I could even see us keeping the pound sign, and the words "pound", "pence", and "quid". It wouldn't matter if the currency had been merged because, as you say, it's just characters on a screen.

I wonder if words like "fiver" and "tenner" would go out the window, though. Mind you, a "pony" is £25 and a "monkey" is £500, so perhaps it doesn't have to relate to physical money, although that slang is nowhere near as common.
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:32 AM   #86
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Here's what we need.

Coins- All would be Zinc based to save on cost. Both the nickel and penny we currently used are literally not worth their own weight in metal cost which is stupid. They would also be sized via their value so the dime wouldn't be smaller than the nickel.

Penny - (Not kept in circulation. Approved design with molds and perhaps a small ready stock pile kept on hand to issue in case of deflation. A few a year minted for collectors/keepsakes maybe)
Nickel
Dime
Quarter
Half Dollar
Dollar
Five Dollar (Not in circulation, approved design, molds, and small stock of kept on standby for issuing in case of inflation. Again maybe a few issued each year for collectors)

Bills - Polymer based, different sized for sight impaired people, modern security features.

1 Dollar (Not kept in general circulation, again maybe small runs every few years for the collector's market.)
5 Dollars
10 Dollars
20 or 25 Dollars (I've waffled back and forth on which one makes more sense)
50 Dollars
100 Dollars
Higher denominations not kept in circulation but again approved designs, plates and a small stock ready for issue might be kept on hand.

Bullion: Silver, Gold, and Platinum coins (I'd go with Silver Eagles, Gold Buffalos, and Platinum Lady Liberties but that's just me) in various sizes.
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Old 25th March 2020, 09:24 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
As I said above, debit cards are a lot more likely than credit cards. As it is, under 18s cannot have credit cards but can have debit cards. I see no reason for this to be changed if cash were to be eliminated.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are not thinking.

When criminals rob children they get all the cash in the pocket. But when they rob the child of a debit card they get all the cash in the account. This is because ATMs give out cash and the debit card will be used at an ATM by the criminal.


What you need, and we already have the technology for, is a cash card that isn't tied to your personal accounts. Where I live, we already have this for using the bus. You buy a card, and load funds onto it, however much you think you'll need for a week, or a month, or whatever. When you get on the bus, you tap the card, and it deducts the cost of a ride.

Just expand that system so you can use such a card to tap for any purchase. If the card gets stolen or lost, you lose only the value stored on the card, no different from having your wallet cleaned out. Provide ATM-like machines to load funds everywhere, as well as online sites to do the same. Parents could load the funds for the kids, and the kids would be two steps removed from the process, so their only vulnerability would be the card itself, just like cash.

Make these ubiquitous enough, and make the basic cards free, and it could be used to replace lots, if not all, cash purchases.
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Old 25th March 2020, 10:17 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
What you need, and we already have the technology for, is a cash card that isn't tied to your personal accounts. Where I live, we already have this for using the bus. You buy a card, and load funds onto it, however much you think you'll need for a week, or a month, or whatever. When you get on the bus, you tap the card, and it deducts the cost of a ride.

Just expand that system so you can use such a card to tap for any purchase.
That's what I meant when I said that there would be an account that parents could set up regular money transfers for, and/or deposit money in to.

I suppose they could also be customised in certain ways - enable them to be set up so that only a certain amount of money can be withdrawn at any particular time and/or within a certain time period, for example.

Quote:
Provide ATM-like machines to load funds everywhere, as well as online sites to do the same.
I don't think you'd even need many of the former. And I'm not sure that it's likely to materialise, anyway, given that actual cash machines are disappearing.

Have the latter and a mobile app.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:24 PM   #89
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Have any of you lot actually got kids?

Mine have been using debit cards for years. If I give my kids a $5 note they don't know what to do with it.

The use of debit cards among children is very well established and while I'm sure there have been cases of kids getting fleeced, it's not something I've ever heard of, either anecdotally or in the media.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:44 PM   #90
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Just looking at my small world and changes I predict.

Business and social networking will no longer be commonplace. There are no good online platforms for real-time introductory face to face meetings that allow for the sort of freestyle groups to form and dissolve of the sort that I attend 3-4 nights a week. Presumably this is a technology opportunity for some smart developer.

The casino industry will retract considerably.

Ride sharing services will be challenged, and with it that portion of the gig economy.

Boardgaming as a hobby will take a serious hit. :-( There has been such expansion in the market over the past few years that it will retract now. After viruses and phobias die down it will come back.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Have any of you lot actually got kids?

Mine have been using debit cards for years. If I give my kids a $5 note they don't know what to do with it.

The use of debit cards among children is very well established and while I'm sure there have been cases of kids getting fleeced, it's not something I've ever heard of, either anecdotally or in the media.

Itís cards or their phone over here. Iíve mentioned before that Iíve recently ended up working somewhere with a lot of kids (under 25 year olds) and Iíve had conversations about how they donít use cash, they see no value in having cash in their wallets, itís card or phone. If they want to lend someone a fiver itís done via their phone.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:46 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
The world after COVID-19.

There will probably always be new coronaviruses popping up from the local mammalian wildlife.
Hopefully this might be a wake up call to fund the resources you need for the next one.
In the UK the amount of ventilators in hospitals are going to increase dramatically because of this, I dont see the government being able to roll it back after this crisis is over, but who knows.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:58 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure they will. Just as they love it when they all carry cash.

ETA: Although, to be fair, criminals love it much more when children carry cash, as it is easier to buy drugs with cash.
Actually it's almost easier to buy drugs with bitcoin than with cash. I wouldn't know where to go or who to talk to to buy drugs with cash. But that's probably different for a lot of people.
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:12 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Have any of you lot actually got kids?

Mine have been using debit cards for years. If I give my kids a $5 note they don't know what to do with it.

The use of debit cards among children is very well established and while I'm sure there have been cases of kids getting fleeced, it's not something I've ever heard of, either anecdotally or in the media.
I mentioned earlier that going cashless further disadvantages the already disadvantaged. To have a debit card you need to have a bank account. And to have that you need to have both a home address and some money to put into the account. There are a lot of people in the world who don't have even that. Some provision is going to need to be made for them.
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:13 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are not thinking.

When criminals rob children they get all the cash in the pocket. But when they rob the child of a debit card they get all the cash in the account. This is because ATMs give out cash and the debit card will be used at an ATM by the criminal.

The criminal robs the child of two things. The debit card and the PIN. The reason that they will love it is because it's easier and safer to rob children rather than adults or even teenagers.
No, silly. You just use a card which can be charged up. A couple of quid on a card is all the criminal would get. Or you have a daily limit.

You donít give a child access to all their money at once!

You are not thinking.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:14 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's what we need.

Coins- All would be Zinc based to save on cost. Both the nickel and penny we currently used are literally not worth their own weight in metal cost which is stupid. They would also be sized via their value so the dime wouldn't be smaller than the nickel.

Penny - (Not kept in circulation. Approved design with molds and perhaps a small ready stock pile kept on hand to issue in case of deflation. A few a year minted for collectors/keepsakes maybe)
Nickel
Dime
Quarter
Half Dollar
Dollar
Five Dollar (Not in circulation, approved design, molds, and small stock of kept on standby for issuing in case of inflation. Again maybe a few issued each year for collectors)

Bills - Polymer based, different sized for sight impaired people, modern security features.

1 Dollar (Not kept in general circulation, again maybe small runs every few years for the collector's market.)
5 Dollars
10 Dollars
20 or 25 Dollars (I've waffled back and forth on which one makes more sense)
50 Dollars
100 Dollars
Higher denominations not kept in circulation but again approved designs, plates and a small stock ready for issue might be kept on hand.

Bullion: Silver, Gold, and Platinum coins (I'd go with Silver Eagles, Gold Buffalos, and Platinum Lady Liberties but that's just me) in various sizes.
This is mostly what the situation is in Canada right now. No pennies. No half dollar. 2 dollar coin not a 5. No 1 dollar note. $20 note not $25. The bullion coins you can get at the Royal Canadian Mint.
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:45 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I mentioned earlier that going cashless further disadvantages the already disadvantaged.
I didn't say anything about the morality of it - I was stating what's happening.

As it happens, I agree with you, so please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote next time.
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Old 25th March 2020, 09:27 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I didn't say anything about the morality of it - I was stating what's happening.

As it happens, I agree with you, so please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote next time.
I wasn't disagreeing with your point, I was adding to it.
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Old 26th March 2020, 01:30 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I mentioned earlier that going cashless further disadvantages the already disadvantaged. To have a debit card you need to have a bank account. And to have that you need to have both a home address and some money to put into the account. There are a lot of people in the world who don't have even that. Some provision is going to need to be made for them.
Benefits can be paid directly to a card so no need for a bank account.
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Old 26th March 2020, 04:20 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Benefits can be paid directly to a card so no need for a bank account.
I think the lines would blur, things like housing would need to be charged to it (we've discussed elsewhere the combining of housing benefit with UC and the potential pitfalls of this) leading to preapproved regular payments on the card, and if the card is empty when a payment is due, will there be charges? What will be the priorities when money is added? There will need to be a centralised account somewhere for the incoming payment and so that a lost card can be replaced. It would be a bank ccount in all but name.
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Old 26th March 2020, 07:40 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Benefits can be paid directly to a card so no need for a bank account.
Can they? How does that work? Where are the funds located?
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:20 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Can they? How does that work? Where are the funds located?
You could have a card with the funds loaded on it written directly onto the magnetic strip like some giftcards and phonecards used to have. But to be honest that then has almost all the disadvantages of cash and cashless and no advantages except reducing cash handling (which admittedly is a big advantage for businesses but a lot less for individuals).
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:28 PM   #103
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From reading another thread I suggest that the fast food industry will be hit hard. People are home cooking, losing weight. Once people go back to work many people will be eating home prepared meals. They will be a lot healthier.
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:43 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
From reading another thread I suggest that the fast food industry will be hit hard. People are home cooking, losing weight. Once people go back to work many people will be eating home prepared meals. They will be a lot healthier.
Yeah, I said that a week or so back, and bloody good thing if it happened.

I have my doubts, though.
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:44 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
From reading another thread I suggest that the fast food industry will be hit hard. People are home cooking, losing weight. Once people go back to work many people will be eating home prepared meals. They will be a lot healthier.
The problem with anything that "gets better" during a crisis is the psychological/emotional need to undue it as way of getting back to normal.

Sure a bunch of people are stuck at home eating... marginally healthier (I wouldn't bet the farm on a lot of people really eating all that much healthier) meals. But the celebratory "Let's go out to eat again, we haven't in so long" meals will be in almost everyone's post COVID lives and well at that point you've "fallen off the wagon."
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:13 PM   #106
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The things the previous posters have overlooked is that the fast food adicts, will feel bad for a few days without their 'fix' (yes they are drug addicts and the drug is sugar) then start to feel much better. Better than what they have had for a long time. They will start to lose weight and will not want to go back to their old habits.

Of course you could be right. They go back to work and because they are tired they will need to buy fast food, so go back to their old ways. Or maybe they tell their boss "Stuff you I am not working so many hours per week."
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
People are home cooking, losing weight.
People are home freaked out of their mind eating a whole bag of potato chips all at once. Then moving on to a whole pint of ice cream.

Right now there is more food in their house than ever before and they are experiencing altered reality.
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Old 27th March 2020, 04:35 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The things the previous posters have overlooked is that the fast food adicts, will feel bad for a few days without their 'fix' (yes they are drug addicts and the drug is sugar) then start to feel much better. Better than what they have had for a long time. They will start to lose weight and will not want to go back to their old habits.

Of course you could be right. They go back to work and because they are tired they will need to buy fast food, so go back to their old ways. Or maybe they tell their boss "Stuff you I am not working so many hours per week."
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
People are home freaked out of their mind eating a whole bag of potato chips all at once. Then moving on to a whole pint of ice cream.

Right now there is more food in their house than ever before and they are experiencing altered reality.
Yeah. I think a lot of people will be in the position of having no gym, no running or cycling, no swimming or climbing or martial arts for months, no strolls around the park etc... A lot more ready meals and may have fewer fresh vegetable options, not even walking to the train or up any flights of stairs at work, little motivation to do anything other than veg out and watch Netflix, stay in bed all morning etc...
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Old 27th March 2020, 05:22 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
People are home freaked out of their mind eating a whole bag of potato chips all at once. Then moving on to a whole pint of ice cream.

Right now there is more food in their house than ever before and they are experiencing altered reality.
Oddly enough, I find myself eating enough just for a snack now.

And I seem to be graduating actually eating three meals a day, when I'm hungry, as opposed to mindless grazing or picking up fast food on the way home.
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Old 27th March 2020, 05:27 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. I think a lot of people will be in the position of having no gym, no running or cycling, no swimming or climbing or martial arts for months, no strolls around the park etc... A lot more ready meals and may have fewer fresh vegetable options, not even walking to the train or up any flights of stairs at work, little motivation to do anything other than veg out and watch Netflix, stay in bed all morning etc...
Please remember that it takes a lot of exercise to lose any significant weight. Most of the energy used is used just to keep alive. Yes what we are saying are generalizations and some it depends on where you live. For example where I am people are allowed to go outside to exercise. Others have said this is not allowed in their country.
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Old 27th March 2020, 06:40 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The things the previous posters have overlooked is that the fast food adicts, will feel bad for a few days without their 'fix' (yes they are drug addicts and the drug is sugar) then start to feel much better. Better than what they have had for a long time. They will start to lose weight and will not want to go back to their old habits.
It will be fascinating to watch the aftermath, but one thing in your favour is that the longer it all goes on, the more chance of permanent change, and it's going to go on for a looooong time.
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Old 27th March 2020, 07:31 PM   #112
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I wonder how TV, movie, and other entertainment media are going to handle it? Just pretend like it never happened and continue with dramas and the like as before. Of course, there will be changes in the production of such media before it even gets out there.
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Old 27th March 2020, 08:31 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I wonder how TV, movie, and other entertainment media are going to handle it? Just pretend like it never happened and continue with dramas and the like as before. Of course, there will be changes in the production of such media before it even gets out there.

Which leads to the questions:

Will most of the new movies scheduled to hit the theaters this year get pushed back to next year?

Will we be forced to watch streaming reruns of "Snakes on a Plane" and "Sharknado 9"?

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Old 27th March 2020, 09:04 PM   #114
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I would like to think that most us come out of this knowing how to make a decent loaf of white bread and not some tasteless, hastily made abomination. Seriously people, use a pre-ferment. 300g of bread flour , 300g of water with a dash (quarter teaspoon) of yeast. Let it sit overnight in a cool dry place.

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Old 27th March 2020, 11:10 PM   #115
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I wonder how soon before a soap or movie have the lockdown as a central theme.
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Old 27th March 2020, 11:43 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I would like to think that most us come out of this knowing how to make a decent loaf of white bread and not some tasteless, hastily made abomination. Seriously people, use a pre-ferment. 300g of bread flour , 300g of water with a dash (quarter teaspoon) of yeast. Let it sit overnight in a cool dry place.
Just try getting the ingredients round here. There's been no flour in the shops for at least two weeks (we were in Bulgaria the week before). I expect it's being directed to commercial uses instead.
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Old 28th March 2020, 12:05 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I wonder how soon before a soap or movie have the lockdown as a central theme.
Whichever one has the shortest time between filming and airing.
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Old 28th March 2020, 02:51 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I wonder how TV, movie, and other entertainment media are going to handle it? Just pretend like it never happened and continue with dramas and the like as before. Of course, there will be changes in the production of such media before it even gets out there.
We'll still have The Quiz Broadcast. So sit back, relax, Stay Inside and enjoy, while not thinking about The Event.

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Old 28th March 2020, 03:34 AM   #119
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There are going to be tons of books/movies about heists, murders and false identities using the Outbreak as cover.
There will also be more movies in which bioweapons are used for terrorism and war.

I am intrigued by the idea that the self-isolation and its impact on the economy might not be seen as a feasibility study of a General Strike: when people realize that they can prepare for 2-4 weeks at home, and stay in contact online, people might coordinate to stay away from work until the government institutes something there is massive popular, but little congressional approval, such as healthcare for all.
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Old 28th March 2020, 03:39 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
... It's pretty early to say, but I think it's going to pull us together as a whole. Also China is going to end up number one.

History indicates that all will recede in importance as other matters come to the fore. After all, most memory and all of caution were forgotten in the century since the last major epidemic. In the face of today's myriad challenges, how well is everyone applying, say, the terrifically hard lessons of WWII or the Holocaust, even in Israel? Embracing fascism, much? I rest my case.

Humanity is forever only one small step out of the cave. All it ever takes is for one generation to fail to take that step, to be too weak to look past shiny bling and beckoning self-interest, as is the case of the, ahem, much-vaunted "greatest" USA.

This event marks the definitive rise of Asia and decline of the West. The US has lost its place, role, moral and political authority, and much of its former unmatched ability to influence the world. Voluntarily, btw, through sheer pigheadedness, pride, and stupidity. Not that the Chinese will learn or heed this lesson, as they in turn enjoy the unrestrained ability to undermine all but their own power and interest alone, like the ignorant bullies that came before them. The difference is that their fall may not come for centuries, even millennia. There will be no high-minded efforts (or low-minded treason) to come to the aid of those who would violently oppose them and all they stand for, or to allow their sworn enemies to share in the fruits of whatever is left of modernity enough to become any sort of threat to them. That bitter lesson is one all shall have taken to heart.
  • Short term prediction: The dollar will fall as reserve currency, and for the first time in generations, Americans will have to earn an honest living and deal from the position of relative weakness that the bleak failure of the nation to invest in fact-based education has left it in, apart from massive debt that is now near impossible to service, aging and broken infrastructure, the consequences of poisoning large swathes of otherwise arable land, and the continued stupifying presence of the descendants of the mindless religionists that Europe had to rid itself of as impossibly brain dead.
  • Midterm prediction: On the whole, the US will ironically be a far better place because of it...
  • Final prediction: ...until overrun and crushed.

Oh, and I certainly do not envy what's in store for Japan.
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