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Old 14th March 2020, 09:19 AM   #281
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've not made one false claim about what you posted in this thread nor the thread that was the genesis of this thread.
Of course it's false. You have just repeated it so often that you aren't willing to back down.

The last time you tried to establish that nobody believes in a God who created the universe, you failed miserably. You didn't dare to read what was quoted from your own source.

Instead, you did what you normally do. You waited until a suitable period of time has passed when hopefully everybody has forgotten about your fiasco then repeated your false claim as if you had never been proven wrong.
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Old 14th March 2020, 09:59 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course it's false. You have just repeated it so often that you aren't willing to back down.

The last time you tried to establish that nobody believes in a God who created the universe, you failed miserably. You didn't dare to read what was quoted from your own source.

Instead, you did what you normally do. You waited until a suitable period of time has passed when hopefully everybody has forgotten about your fiasco then repeated your false claim as if you had never been proven wrong.
Anyway, to answer your original question: Yes. Gods are like invisible dragons. Neither has any testable properties. Neither can be shown to exist in any physical way. All arguments for their existences necessarily boil down to appeals to blind faith or outright fallacies.
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Old 14th March 2020, 10:27 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course it's false. You have just repeated it so often that you aren't willing to back down.



The last time you tried to establish that nobody believes in a God who created the universe, you failed miserably. You didn't dare to read what was quoted from your own source.



Instead, you did what you normally do. You waited until a suitable period of time has passed when hopefully everybody has forgotten about your fiasco then repeated your false claim as if you had never been proven wrong.
And you are still lying. Surely it is just easier to deal with what I have posted rather than go to the effort to lie about what I've said?

For those that didn't follow the previous thread . What I pointed out to PsionI0 was that not all religions' gods are creator gods, for example all but one of the Hindu pantheon are not a "universe creating" god. Indeed most gods the many different religions have claimed existed over history are not "universe creating" gods. I even showed him not even all the adherents of Abrahamic based religions have their god creating the universe ex nihlio.
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Old 14th March 2020, 09:35 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And you are still lying
Of course you would say that. You don't think that anybody will bother to click on the link and read the actual post.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
For those that didn't follow the previous thread . What I pointed out to PsionI0 was that not all religions' gods are creator gods
And for those who follow the previous thread, the claim was that nobody believes in a God who created the universe. Darat even called such a god the "pgod" because he maintains that I invented this creator god.
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Old 15th March 2020, 02:20 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course you would say that. You don't think that anybody will bother to click on the link and read the actual post.
Well, I clicked on the link and read the post.

You're still lying.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And for those who follow the previous thread, the claim was that nobody believes in a God who created the universe. Darat even called such a god the "pgod" because he maintains that I invented this creator god.
Yup, Confirmed. I followed the train of quotes back.

You're still lying.
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Old 15th March 2020, 02:45 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, I clicked on the link and read the post.

You're still lying.
Then you didn't read the post.

"King of creation" is not a title you bestow upon somebody who merely "rearranged" the universe.
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Old 15th March 2020, 03:23 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then you didn't read the post.



"King of creation" is not a title you bestow upon somebody who merely "rearranged" the universe.
He did and anyone else can and they will see that you are for whatever reason lying about what I have posted. I have never claimed no religion believes in a god that creates everything. Again let me make it clear what I did say. Many religions have gods that are not creator gods, even within some of the variations of the Abrahamic based religions there are some that do not claim their god created everything, the various Abrahamic religions all have different definitions for their gods, and they all claim to have a god that interacts directly with the world in ways the religions say are emperical.

The definition of a god you say we can't say discount is not a god recognised by any of the religions , it is your personal god, or as I have put it "pgod".
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Old 15th March 2020, 04:08 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Totally agree with you. I always say in this type of thread I'm happy to go from what those that make the claims for their god or gods existing say are its properties. The only niggle for me is the false equivalence that some try to claim exists between all those entities simply because they all use the English word "god" as a label (by English speaking folk). The word God is not actually a class.
Ah yes, the Motte And Bailey Fallacy, so loved by god proponents. Argue a smaller and easier to swallow claim (e.g., "SOMETHING must have caused the universe"), pretend to have thus defended a much larger claim (e.g., "it's Allah, and you go to hell if you eat pork") Bit of a pet peeve of mine too, and the reason I had to explicitly state that one must defend ALL the claims that their god claim breaks down into.
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Old 15th March 2020, 06:38 AM   #289
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That's been my point for a while; that the god botherers expect us to give God extra credit for being so vaguely and broadly defined.
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:20 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"King of creation" is not a title you bestow upon somebody who merely "rearranged" the universe.
The Mormons do.
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:24 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It sure did. That's why you had to play the "I don't understand you therefore you are talking nonsense" card.
Sorry. Just because the person who said it understands doesn't mean any one else did.

If I can understand how temperature affects fission of Uranium 233 in a lithium beryllium flouride mixture, I think I can understand most sensible dialogue.

Time for you to stop baffling people and make sense.
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:32 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The definition of a god you say we can't say discount is not a god recognised by any of the religions , it is your personal god, or as I have put it "pgod".
More precisely, it is a god defined not by any essence or character of godliness, or by being known by any who want a god, but solely by its ad hoc ability to escape detection by skepticism. That is precisely what Sagan sought to analogize -- or rather, the process of defining god that he sought to analogize.
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:37 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have never claimed no religion believes in a god that creates everything.
If you really had said that only some religions claim that God created everything then there would be nothing to argue about. You certainly wouldn't have carried the same argument from one thread to another.
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:42 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you really had said that only some religions claim that God created everything then there would be nothing to argue about. You certainly wouldn't have carried the same argument from one thread to another.
It's there in black and white (if that is the colour scheme you use), other people seem able to see it even if you can't.

Plus you seem to have forgotten that you created this thread with the express aim of "carried the same argument from one thread to another".
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:47 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you really had said that only some religions claim that God created everything then there would be nothing to argue about. You certainly wouldn't have carried the same argument from one thread to another.
Oh I'm sorry are we introducing baggage to your call out thread?
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:47 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's there in black and white (if that is the colour scheme you use), other people seem able to see it even if you can't.
No, they are just taking your word for it. You can't even quote a post.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Plus you seem to have forgotten that you created this thread with the express aim of "carried the same argument from one thread to another".
I thought this thread was about "invisible dragons in the garage". You hijacked this thread.
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Old 15th March 2020, 08:51 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, they are just taking your word for it. You can't even quote a post.
You do seem a tad forgetful, you provided some links for people earlier....
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought this thread was about "invisible dragons in the garage". You hijacked this thread.
I thought it was about what one can say about "god".
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Old 15th March 2020, 09:05 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought this thread was about "invisible dragons in the garage". You hijacked this thread.
Re-reading your opening post, it seems to be an accusation that your critics all improperly change the subject to the "dragon in the garage" analogy, and a desire that all related arguments be brought to this thread and dealt with rather than derail the threads in which you claim they appear uninvited.

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Old 15th March 2020, 10:04 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Re-reading your opening post, it seems to be an accusation that your critics all improperly change the subject to the "dragon in the garage" analogy, and a desire that all related arguments be brought to this thread and dealt with rather than derail the threads in which you claim they appear uninvited.
Don't add words I didn't post nor imply.
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Old 15th March 2020, 10:40 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I would rather that the comparison be with "undetectable entities in the garage" but I understand that everybody wants to sillify the discussion.
Some people think that the existence of gods is in fact silly, and they have every right to say so, whether by analogy, song, mime, hand-puppets, or any other means. I think it's silly of you to try to stop them.
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Old 15th March 2020, 10:53 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you really had said that only some religions claim that God created everything then there would be nothing to argue about. You certainly wouldn't have carried the same argument from one thread to another.
But that IS what he said

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, they are just taking your word for it. You can't even quote a post.
I can
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Actually they don't in terms of being able to use the words in an argument. For example most gods people claim they believe in do not claim to have created the universe. Such gods are a small subset of gods, so if you want to use the creation of the universe to make an ontological argument as PsionIO has done in the past you need to define your god for it to have meaning. Sadly as with all such arguments that ends up as being circular logic. This is why PsionI0 fights so hard to not define what they mean by god as they know as sooner as they define it their arguments fail.
NOTE: Darat said "most gods" not "all gods" or "no gods"; "most gods". You have been lying about what he posted.

Be honest psionl0. You're flailing and failing; you're getting your arse handed to you, and you just cannot accept it.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:01 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Don't add words I didn't post nor imply.
Hmmm. Your OP was

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Every time I dare to post in this section, others immediately try to change the topic of the particular thread to "invisible dragons in the garage" regardless of the actual topic nor what I have posted.

I thought that I would create this thread so all of those arguments can be dealt with once and for all.
So that is exactly what you demanded.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I would rather that the comparison be with "undetectable entities in the garage" but I understand that everybody wants to sillify the discussion.
Why, then, are you allowed to claim a "god" is possible? Why are you not claiming an unknown entity in some unexplored corner of the universe? You are claiming a "creator god" is at least possible. It does not help if we change that to a "creator entity". You are still claiming attributes for that entity.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:03 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Don't add words I didn't post nor imply.
The words you crossed out in my post are quite clearly implied here

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought that I would create this thread so all of those arguments can be dealt with once and for all.
in your original. Kindly do not gaslight.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:46 AM   #304
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Oh man!

I just re-re-re-read Demon Haunted World a couple of weeks back and, if I follow this thread correctly, Sagan thinks there are real demons haunting our world? That is what's being claimed, isn't it? That what Sagan said is literally true...

And I thought I'd understood Carl's metaphors, analogies and all the rest. Just shows how wrong you can be. I'll have to go back and re-think it all...

What is undisputable is that I do live in a cat haunted house and that my tom cat believes that the world is made for his edification and that I am a combination of a symbolic mother figure and an all powerful provider, who is yet subject to his will.

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Old 15th March 2020, 02:20 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Oh man!

I just re-re-re-read Demon Haunted World a couple of weeks back and, if I follow this thread correctly, Sagan thinks there are real demons haunting our world? That is what's being claimed, isn't it? That what Sagan said is literally true...
No.

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
And I thought I'd understood Carl's metaphors, analogies and all the rest. Just shows how wrong you can be. I'll have to go back and re-think it all...
No.

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
What is undisputable is that I do live in a cat haunted house and that my tom cat believes that the world is made for his edification and that I am a combination of a symbolic mother figure and an all powerful provider, who is yet subject to his will.
Yes.

Back to remedial reading comprehension for you.
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Old 15th March 2020, 04:06 PM   #306
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Just to make it even clearer with actual examples and numbers, most gods have indeed never created ANYTHING.

E.g., the Egyptians have about 170 Pharaohs, starting with Menes and ending with Cleopatra. Literally all 170 were thought to BE a god. Not representative of the gods. Not demi-god. Full tilt god. The real thing. Also AFAIK exactly 0 (zero) out of 170 were thought to have any kind of divine power of creation.

E.g., it gets even dicier for animists, where really there is a continuum of spirits as opposed to some clear threshold for where gods start. Probably the best example of an actual animistic religion is Shinto, if nothing else, because it's an actual religion, as opposed to nutcases inventing out of whole cloth a BS mystical reason to get stoned. Thing is Amaterasu (the Sun) is the mightiest kami (spirit/deity/whatever), but even that is not fundamentally different from grandma's spirit, or the spirit of the cat that was trying to feed me mice when I was a kid, or just the spirit of a mountain or a grove or whatever.

Quite literally, my late cat can help about as much as most spirits. Come to think of it, I might want to make a shrine to her

Thing is, VERY few out of even the major spirits are involved in creating anything at all. I mean, they do have a world creation myth, but that's a couple of kami total involved, out of literally millions.

But ok, maybe animism is stretching the idea of "gods" a bit. But then the same applies to most polytheistic religions, even if they don't have millions of divines. The Norse for example had 24 gods, out of which only 3 were involved in creation. The Sumerians had about 5 times more gods than the Norse IIRC, so the ratio there is even worse.

And when the Akkadians took that pantheon and concentrated all powers in Marduk, it gets even funnier. We have a CHIEF and in fact ONLY god, and he didn't create the universe or the world or anything of note.

So basically, yeah, Darat is absolutely right.
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Old 15th March 2020, 04:31 PM   #307
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BTW, incidentally, if I were to go Shinto, I could LITERALLY make the claim in the OP: I have an invisible dragon spirit in my garage -- that is, invisible to everyone but me -- next to the small shrine I made to her. Not the most usual choice of shrine spirit (actually foxes are probably the most common divine messengers), and it's probably not the most pious place for that shrine, but otherwise it's an entirely mundane claim I could actually make in that religion. Only the priest/priestess being able to interact more meaningfully with the shrine spirit than the clapping and wishing something like the rest of the gang, is actually NORMAL. Of course, nobody has to take my shrine and dragon spirit seriously, but it wouldn't be a ridiculous claim or anything.
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Old 15th March 2020, 09:31 PM   #308
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What is this thread about???

It seems to be a thread where psion10 vents his anger at particular posters who use arguments he doesn't like. The last page or so has just been bickering over meaningless issues.

I happily agreed to use no such analogies and asked him repeatedly what he'd like to discuss now that he has a debate partner willing to engage on his terms. He didn't answer me. Please, psion10, if there's anything you'd like to discuss now that we've freed ourselves from dragons, garages, and the invisibility of each, please just move on to whatever's next.

You won this battle. You won over my heart and mind. You have bewitched me body and soul. Now that that's out of the way, what would you like to discuss next?
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Old 15th March 2020, 10:18 PM   #309
psionl0
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Some people think that the existence of gods is in fact silly, and they have every right to say so, whether by analogy, song, mime, hand-puppets, or any other means. I think it's silly of you to try to stop them.
There are many analogies that could have been used to demonstrate the unknowability and unprovability of a gods. For example, one could have asked, "are their cloaked alien space ships orbiting this planet"? The obvious answer would be "most unlikely but there is no way to tell". Give the same answer to "are there invisible dragons in my garage" and you would look like a fool.

And that is the purpose of choosing this particular analogy. The conclusion of this analogy is that it is silly. Therefore, anybody who entertains the concept of a god is silly. Robert H. Thouless in his book "Straight and Crooked Thinking" described this fallacy in a chapter he titled "Pitfalls in Analogy".
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Old 15th March 2020, 10:38 PM   #310
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What is this thread about???

It seems to be a thread where psion10 vents his anger at particular posters who use arguments he doesn't like. The last page or so has just been bickering over meaningless issues.

I happily agreed to use no such analogies and asked him repeatedly what he'd like to discuss now that he has a debate partner willing to engage on his terms. He didn't answer me. Please, psion10, if there's anything you'd like to discuss now that we've freed ourselves from dragons, garages, and the invisibility of each, please just move on to whatever's next.

You won this battle. You won over my heart and mind. You have bewitched me body and soul. Now that that's out of the way, what would you like to discuss next?
Actually I responded to you in post #169 but you never got back to me.

You probably didn't see the post because it was buried by the many OT posts made by other posters. If you want to blame somebody for the length of this thread then blame them. They are the ones who are constantly and deliberately derailing this thread.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:14 PM   #311
ynot
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There are many analogies that could have been used to demonstrate the unknowability and unprovability of a gods. For example, one could have asked, "are their cloaked alien space ships orbiting this planet"? The obvious answer would be "most unlikely but there is no way to tell". Give the same answer to "are there invisible dragons in my garage" and you would look like a fool.
Give the same answer to "are there invisible gods anywhere" and you would equally look like a fool.

Provide some evidence that gods are any more or less unlikely or likely than dragons.

We do know non-supernatural/paranormal beings (us) exist on Earth. It's therefore not a big stretch to conclude that similar beings might exist elsewhere in The Universe as advanced space aliens.

We don't know that supernatural/paranormal gods exist anywhere. It's therefore not a big stretch to use supernatural/paranormal dragons as an analogy for gods

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And that is the purpose of choosing this particular analogy. The conclusion of this analogy is that it is silly. Therefore, anybody who entertains the concept of a god is silly. Robert H. Thouless in his book "Straight and Crooked Thinking" described this fallacy in a chapter he titled "Pitfalls in Analogy".
That you think concepts of dragons are sillier than concepts of gods doesn't mean they are.

The purpose of the analogy is to demonstrate that you can't claim gods actually exist, or even possibly exist, any more or less than dragons (fairies, goblins, Easter bunnies, Harry Potter, etc.) actually exist.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:44 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Give the same answer to "are there invisible gods anywhere" and you would equally look like a fool.
No, that's a conclusion you drew from the analogy. Then you used that conclusion to say that the analogy is justified.
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Old 15th March 2020, 11:52 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, that's a conclusion you drew from the analogy. Then you used that conclusion to say that the analogy is justified.
No, that's a conclusion I drew when I was very young and well before I'd ever heard the analogy.

Your whole "argument" is that god concepts are less silly and more possible to be true than dragon concepts. Switch on that "scientific mind" you claim to have and convince us all with credible argument that this is true and we will be forced to agree with you. Please don't make yourself look even sillier by presenting an Argumentum ad Populum logical fallacy.

Ball's in your court . . .
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Old 16th March 2020, 12:41 AM   #314
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, that's a conclusion you drew from the analogy. Then you used that conclusion to say that the analogy is justified.
As you've been told more than once, if the relevant attribute is shared between the two things in the analogy, then yes, the analogy IS justified. In fact it's what MAKES it an analogy. And more specifically the argument from analogy is valid, since if any conclusion is drawn, that's what it is.

At this point this seems to have devolved into you just repeating the same nonsense assertions over and over again. Not even offering any valid argument for why it is so, nor for why a textbook fallacy should be allowed when YOU do it. Just apparently going for the idea that if you say the same silly fallacy one more time, it will become true.

Problem is, we're not in The Hunting Of The Snark, and you're not the Bellman. Saying it thrice doesn't automatically make it true
"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."
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Old 16th March 2020, 01:57 AM   #315
psionl0
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
No, that's a conclusion I drew when I was very young and well before I'd ever heard the analogy.
You can play chicken and egg if you like but it doesn't change the fact that the silliness of any notion of gods is not proven by the silliness of the analogy and it doesn't change the fact that other, less silly, analogies could just as easily illustrated the futility of trying to test for the presence or absence of gods.
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Old 16th March 2020, 02:05 AM   #316
HansMustermann
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That is a bit moving the goal posts, though, innit? I mean, from it being supposedly a bad analogy to it just not being the one that works the best. Well, who cares, really? You can always find a better analogy for just about anything. E.g., nowadays an MMO probably works better as an analogy for life than Shakespeare's stage. But just not being the best doesn't make it invalid or anything.
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Old 16th March 2020, 03:01 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No.

No.

Yes.

Back to remedial reading comprehension for you.
Should I have put sarcasm tags on my post?

Aside from the last bit about cats, obviously.
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Old 16th March 2020, 03:44 AM   #318
Darat
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can play chicken and egg if you like but it doesn't change the fact that the silliness of any notion of gods is not proven by the silliness of the analogy and it doesn't change the fact that other, less silly, analogies could just as easily illustrated the futility of trying to test for the presence or absence of gods.
It illustrates the silliness of the argument. Or rather what a poor argument it is.
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Old 16th March 2020, 04:00 AM   #319
psionl0
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
That is a bit moving the goal posts, though, innit?
Wait what?

I have always maintained that religion isn't silly JUST because the analogy is silly. Are you now agreeing with me?
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Old 16th March 2020, 05:28 AM   #320
HansMustermann
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I think I already did so a couple of pages ago. You know, the whole thing about analogy not being identity? Of course the extra attributes, such as being silly or in a garage, aren't automatically shared.
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