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Old 6th December 2019, 04:15 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And this is the crux of the matter. You want to separate out each part and say 'this colonisation wasn't as bad as this one' but you refuse to see its all part of the same system.
Because it's not all a part of the same system. You seem to want to believe that all colonization was done by Imperial powers that send military forces to a place, stuck a flag in the ground and said to the natives "This is out place now and if you don't agree, we'll wipe you out," and then started shipping people to the place before rounding up the natives and dumping them in a nearby swamp.

The fact is, this simply isn't a true representation of the history of many colonial countries.

[/quote]And it was ALL backed by the miltary because the only reason you can do these things in the first place is because you have the military (and economic) might to back them up.[/quote]

Again this is just fundamentally wrong. In many of the colonies the military wasn't sent to back up the colony, it was to make sure that the Colonists kept the law. Heck in the USA the military was used on the Colonists, and here in NZ the Military were the police for the colonists until those settlers got in the middle of a local fight, and then they had to be used to defend the Settlers against attacks on them. And even then it was the Settler Government that made the decisions for attacks after that, not some Imperial Government in Britain.

Quote:
Do you think its a coincidence that colonisation is ONLY done by rich countries with big armies? Or that the modern day equivalents are being done by the current superpowers?
Rich countries with big armies tend to also have large populations and thus over population and people who are in extreme poverty, and those are factors that drive migration. So no, I don't think that it is a coincidence, but I do see it as a correlation rather than a causation. If you want to make the claim it is a causation, present your evidence, cause so far you have been making a lot of claims and I have yet to see you wither address any of the evidence I have presented, or for you to present any evidence of your own.
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Old 6th December 2019, 04:21 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
How...convenient.

Yeah I know I came into your house smashed up all your stuff took a dump on the carpet slept with your wife and drowned your dog in the bath but at least I didn't kill you so you have to move on so we can let grievances be laid to rest and move forward from here.

So I will just stay here for the time being and you can start paying me rent. I've even moved your stuff into the shed for you.
Here's your entire problem, you really have absolutely no real idea of the true histories, and instead you have replaced them all with this false caricature narrative of evil Imperialist Colonials matching in and kicking out the natives and smashing up their stuff based on a few times where it did happen.

The simple Historical fact is that what you describe in your analogy just isn't even close for many cases.
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Old 6th December 2019, 04:37 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Option 2B might be the same or similar thing but make it some kind of UN protectorate and put a base of UN peacekeepers there.
That makes sense.
Sure. If you like cholera and child prostitution.
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Old 6th December 2019, 05:01 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. If you like cholera and child prostitution.
I'd rather forgotten what I now remember to be not uncommon incidents. Embarassing.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:26 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Falklands would be an ideal place to generate wind power. Oil is old energy and even the oil companies are moving into new energy production.
Then what? where would the power go?
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:28 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Any military person who declares that saving a civilian population from a hostile foreign invasion "wasn't worth the cost" is in the wrong job. Because that is actually the job.
No
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:48 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Another option would be to ship all the Falklanders back to the UK and set them up with homes here and leave the Falklands to the puffins or penguins or whatever it is lives there. Bit of a dump on the residents but hell, sins of the fathers.
What sins of the fathers? What exactly is the benefit to depopulating the islands?
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Old 6th December 2019, 09:31 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Then what? where would the power go?
To keep the sheep warm. Or, maybe magically transmit it across the ocean to South America.
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Old 6th December 2019, 09:55 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What sins of the fathers? What exactly is the benefit to depopulating the islands?
Aside from that, it seems unlikely that the islands would stay depopulated. If the UK simply took off the islanders and abandoned the place, it would not stay abandoned, but would be retaken, and possibly repopulated, and possibly exploited in new ways, by Argentina. The genie is out of the bottle. There will never be a pre-colonial Falklands, or even a recreation of it, without a far more complicated bit of international deal-making than simply to close the doors.
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Old 6th December 2019, 06:00 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Because it's not all a part of the same system. You seem to want to believe that all colonization was done by Imperial powers that send military forces to a place, stuck a flag in the ground and said to the natives "This is out place now and if you don't agree, we'll wipe you out," and then started shipping people to the place before rounding up the natives and dumping them in a nearby swamp.

The fact is, this simply isn't a true representation of the history of many colonial countries.
And it was ALL backed by the miltary because the only reason you can do these things in the first place is because you have the military (and economic) might to back them up.[/quote]

Again this is just fundamentally wrong. In many of the colonies the military wasn't sent to back up the colony, it was to make sure that the Colonists kept the law. Heck in the USA the military was used on the Colonists, and here in NZ the Military were the police for the colonists until those settlers got in the middle of a local fight, and then they had to be used to defend the Settlers against attacks on them. And even then it was the Settler Government that made the decisions for attacks after that, not some Imperial Government in Britain.



Rich countries with big armies tend to also have large populations and thus over population and people who are in extreme poverty, and those are factors that drive migration. So no, I don't think that it is a coincidence, but I do see it as a correlation rather than a causation. If you want to make the claim it is a causation, present your evidence, cause so far you have been making a lot of claims and I have yet to see you wither address any of the evidence I have presented, or for you to present any evidence of your own.[/quote]

Can you read what I wrote and then answer that please rather than ignore what I wrote and respond to what you think I was going to say?

You are just dripping with colonial exceptionalisam.
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Old 6th December 2019, 06:04 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Here's your entire problem, you really have absolutely no real idea of the true histories, and instead you have replaced them all with this false caricature narrative of evil Imperialist Colonials matching in and kicking out the natives and smashing up their stuff based on a few times where it did happen.

The simple Historical fact is that what you describe in your analogy just isn't even close for many cases.
No the problem is you sit there with your privilege dripping off you and you can't see that you might have got there on the backs of others. You literally cannot connect the dots.

It wasn't a 'few' times when it happened. It was the whole ******* program.

You're excusing the Sudetenland because it wasn't Poland. And the ONLY reason why you don't see that is because you think Nazis are bad and 'we' are the good guys.

You've been clear on that. Your previous posts show it beyond doubt. Your colonial mindset is fixed.
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Old 6th December 2019, 06:06 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Your analogy depends on it being someone else's house. Not the case for the Falklands.
Hey, we found a spare patch of land next to your house so it's ours now as well. Disagree???? Come take it off us.
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Old 6th December 2019, 06:08 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And?
There are families there who have been there for generations. That's as legitimate a claim as anyone else. Why should they not be protected from some other country taking them over? Why should this other country, who have no claim to the place other than vague proximity, be allowed to take it over?
The better question is why do you ask this question like it hasn't been asked and answered already?

Is it because this is the question that suits your argument?
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Old 6th December 2019, 06:14 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Unless you're arguing that nobody has legitimate claim to ownership of any land, then they have legitimate claim to ownership of the land.



Of course it's British land.



Proximity pales in comparison to other reasons. The fact that there aren't any Argentinians living there is a pretty big strike against them.



Only if you don't believe in the concept of national sovereignty. And I know some people don't. But international law as it currently stands is premised on national sovereignty.



This is meaningless. You might think that, say, China has an obligation to help defend the Falklands against an Argentinian invasion. But China won't agree. The "right" to be defended by other countries is a fantasy. Other countries won't actually come to their defense unless they have some specific interest in doing so.



What sin would that be? Bothering penguins?



That wouldn't be nearly as workable as you imagine. Suppose for example Argentina wants to do something but the locals complain that it will harm them. Who judges whether or not they're harmed? Hell, what counts as harm?
Do you think the Falkland people are Falklanders or British? Because you seem to swing back and forward when it suits.
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Old 6th December 2019, 06:17 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. If you like cholera and child prostitution.
UN is worse than colonialism claims internet genius.

Take it to Breitbart
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:34 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No the problem is you sit there with your privilege dripping off you and you can't see that you might have got there on the backs of others. You literally cannot connect the dots.
Ad Hominem Fallacy.

Quote:
It wasn't a 'few' times when it happened. It was the whole ******* program.
Already shown to be incorrect, but keep on banging that table.

Quote:
You're excusing the Sudetenland because it wasn't Poland. And the ONLY reason why you don't see that is because you think Nazis are bad and 'we' are the good guys.
Strawman Fallacy and Godwin. Nice towfer there.

Quote:
You've been clear on that. Your previous posts show it beyond doubt. Your colonial mindset is fixed.
And back to Ad Hominem Fallacy.

When you decide to start responding to actual history and facts and stop the Appeal to Emotion Fallacies, let me know.
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:43 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Hey, we found a spare patch of land next to your house so it's ours now as well. Disagree???? Come take it off us.
Next to his house?

You mean, a spare patch of land hundreds of miles from his house, in the middle of the ocean.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:54 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
UN is worse than colonialism claims internet genius.

Take it to Breitbart
The comparison wasn't between the UN and some nebulous "colonialism" which is supposed to encompass every evil done under that banner, but between the UN and the current situation in the Falklands, which doesn't actually have the baggage you're trying to attach to that term.

You made reference earlier to some supposed sin committed by the people who now live in the Falklands. I asked you what this sin was, but you never answered. The question needs an answer, because your position seems to depend upon the assertion that there is such a sin. But I have no idea what it's in reference to.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:58 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No the problem is you sit there with your privilege dripping off you
Any time someone uses "privilege" in an argument like this, it's always an ad hominem to try to make the other person shut up. It's never an honest argument. It's a tell that you don't have an honest argument left.
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:28 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Any time someone uses "privilege" in an argument like this, it's always an ad hominem to try to make the other person shut up. It's never an honest argument. It's a tell that you don't have an honest argument left.
You are making the assumption that there was an honest argument to start with.
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:52 AM   #221
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I'm all in favour of the Falklands becoming fully independent, if that's what the islanders want and if it were possible. It's not possible.

The islanders are proudly independent, with a small i. They're self-sufficient. They can wash their faces economically and budget for things they want (like that road to the airport and the mammogram facility). If it were not for one thing they could make a go of it. That one thing is defence.

They're entirely beholden to whoever will step up and defend them from a hostile invasion by a military dictatorship. That whoever, for historical reasons, is Britain. They know they can't possibly survive without that help. That knowledge breeds understandable feelings of gratitude and obligation. In the context of these feelings, I think it's unlikely they'd actually want to be completely independent. Britain isn't interfering in their economy or their legal or educational systems or indeed anything at all. What motivation would they have for changing it?

So we are where we are. The islanders are there, it's their home and their property. It's nobody else's home and nobody else's property. They are content with the situation as it stands. Why would anyone want to change that? Why would Corbyn want to cut them loose and invite in the military dictatorship? It doesn't make a blind bit of sense.
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Old 7th December 2019, 11:35 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why would Corbyn want to cut them loose and invite in the military dictatorship? It doesn't make a blind bit of sense.
In his eyes, the Falklands war was imperialist and win for Mrs Thatcher - two things he hates - so unwinding the legacy of that war would be a win for him. It's the same sort of reason why he always supported the IRA - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
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Old 7th December 2019, 12:18 PM   #223
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He needs to go there and listen to the people and tell them to their faces why he's betraying them.
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Old 7th December 2019, 12:32 PM   #224
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What is the stated Labour position on the Falkland Islands? It doesn't seem to come up very easily when I search.
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Old 7th December 2019, 12:58 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
What is the stated Labour position on the Falkland Islands? It doesn't seem to come up very easily when I search.
You need to search under “Malvinas “
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:00 PM   #226
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That doesn't help. All I get are pages saying that Labour will "pledge to defend the Falklands", which doesn't seem like the betrayal previously talked about.
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:24 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That doesn't help. All I get are pages saying that Labour will "pledge to defend the Falklands", which doesn't seem like the betrayal previously talked about.
Well no, it was a joke. Which means that, while in the same genre as the Labour manifesto, is not exactly the same
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:37 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Well no, it was a joke. Which means that, while in the same genre as the Labour manifesto, is not exactly the same
Sorry, that sentence doesn't even make sense.
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:47 PM   #229
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Just to throw in a comment about how ridiculous the concept and definition of “indigenous” can be. I once had a conversation with an academic who is aborigine. He was adamant that Australian aborigines actually evolved here because there was no oral history of arriving here from another place. I tried to argue with him about the lack of primate fossils and DNA linking aborigines with south East Asians.

He would have none of it, because if aborigines didn’t evolve here, they were simply boat people who arrived earlier.
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Old 9th December 2019, 11:18 PM   #230
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Hm, just a quick question for Archie Gemmill Goal:
What are people living in Bohemia. Indigenous, colonists, evil colonists or something else?
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