ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old Yesterday, 02:16 PM   #361
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,114
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No.
Yes. Again, you are the only one suggesting that she needs to personally change the all the laws on CO2 emissions in order to succeed.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No.
But it does mean that her activism has to do something.
Which it is…

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No.
This is exactly the cargo-cult celebration of her activism that I'm talking about. Real policy change is a success. Real emissions reductions is a success.
You are not good with how Democracy works are you. No matter how backwards ignorant or misinformed climate deniers are they still entitled to their vote. Ignorance and stupidity may still win the day, but the possibility doesn’t mean people should just stand back and let it happen nor should they “win” by tearing down democracy itself.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM   #362
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 15,742
You keep suggesting we start collecting all these pollution taxes, which isn't going to happen, because the people who vote on these issues are not going to give up on the things they want that cause all this pollution...
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:46 PM   #363
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,638
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Yes. Again, you are the only one suggesting that she needs to personally change the all the laws on CO2 emissions in order to succeed.
I'm very sorry. I certainly didn't mean to suggest anything like that. It's not what I believe. It makes no part of any of my arguments. If you thought that was my suggestion, then it must be a miscommunication on my part, or a misread on your part, or both. Whatever the cause, I sincerely apologize for my part in causing this misunderstanding.

I hope it's all cleared up now, and you will be able to adjust your claims accordingly.


Quote:
Which it is…
I have already argued that nothing she's done so far has made a substantial difference to the issue of global climate change.

Quote:
You are not good with how Democracy works are you. No matter how backwards ignorant or misinformed climate deniers are they still entitled to their vote. Ignorance and stupidity may still win the day, but the possibility doesn’t mean people should just stand back and let it happen nor should they “win” by tearing down democracy itself.
I'm well aware of how Democracy works.

I'm not following your logic, though. If voters cockblock Thunberg's proposals at the polls, then that hardly counts as a success for Thunberg, right?

Again, I'm not arguing that Thunberg should stand back and let it happen. I think she should stand up and fight for what she believes in. I also think that if she stands up and fights, then success has to be measured in wins, not in effort spent fighting.

The argument for Greta's success seems to be something like "activism has worked in the past; this is activism; this must be working." That's what I call the cargo cult approach. Sometimes activism works. Sometimes it doesn't.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:18 PM   #364
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,690
Okay, I can already see how this article is going to be received:

I'm a critical thinking expert. This is how you win any climate change debate like Greta Thunberg

Quote:
As bushfires rage and our cities lie shrouded in smoke, climate change is shaping as a likely topic of conversation at the family dinner table this Christmas.

Such discussions can be fraught if family members hold differing views. You may not all agree on the urgency of dealing with climate change — or indeed whether it is happening at all.

When I teach the art of argumentation — a core skill of critical thinking — I tell my students about the concept of "point at issue". This is what the argument is about and should be the focus of rational discussion.

But when debating emotive and controversial topics such as climate change, the point at issue can become lost.

So what to do? We can learn much from Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg — a master of staying on topic.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:48 AM   #365
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,338
Just a BTW. Andrew Bolt wrote yet another article about Greta. What is it about a 16 year old girl that gets an old git like Bolt so fired up.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 03:52 AM   #366
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,156
Greta Thunberg has called upon world leaders to stop using "clever accounting and creative PR" to avoid real action on climate change.

Speaking at a UN climate change summit, Ms Thunberg said the next decade would define the planet's future.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50740324
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:13 AM   #367
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,057
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What organizations/bodies collects your other taxes?
The government, my local authority, shops/retailers (on behalf of the government) whenever I buy anything, the BBC (or whoever they farm out the collection of the BBC tax to), a few small taxes such as the one recently imposed on radio control model fliers.

But I don't see how that works for carbon taxes. If all governments world wide don't impose the same taxes then it will cause jobs to be exported to the lowest tax countries.

Consider, as an example, some aluminium which uses enormous amounts of energy to refine. The ore is mined in Peru using mostly oil fuelled mining equipment, but after transport by road and rail of the ore, the refining is done in Brazil. The energy used (mostly from the electric power grid) comes from a mix of sources - wind, solar, coal, natural gas. The aluminium ingots are then transferred by road/rail/ship/rail/road to a plant in the UK which again uses mostly electrical energy from the grid to produce alloys from the aluminium. There are two main customers for the aluminium alloy - one makes parts for wind turbines from it, and the other makes private jets sold mostly to foreign billionaires.

Now who pays the taxes and to whom? Whoever collects the taxes, what do they spend the money on, which countries benefit?

Until there's a clear system that's seen to be fair, and which all countries participate in, I can't see it working.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.