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Old 17th November 2019, 04:49 PM   #241
Darat
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
The reference to prison makes it unclear if you are referring specifically to people who have committed criminal acts (including belonging to illegal organisations or plotting/threatening violence). Obviously if people have committed criminal acts they lose some rights and can be monitored and restricted in various ways. I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue of free speech at universities since I doubt anyone would expect a university to host a speaker who intends to incite or threaten criminal activities.
Any self labeled Nazi is intending to incite or threaten criminal activities. That is what Nazism is, plain and simple. Now I suppose you could say "no they advocating for changes to the legal system that will make it legal for the state to kill you" but to me that is beyond hairsplitting.
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Old 17th November 2019, 04:59 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any self labeled Nazi is intending to incite or threaten criminal activities. That is what Nazism is, plain and simple. Now I suppose you could say "no they advocating for changes to the legal system that will make it legal for the state to kill you" but to me that is beyond hairsplitting.
I don't think I'd mind making a special exception for Nazis, but the US in general at least likes to profess a value of making laws broadly and evenly applicable, not targetting certain ideas.

And I think it would be hard to disentagle nazis from other people who believe in government change without doing a heck of a lot of hairsplitting yourself.

Can people advocate for the death penalty for people who are not currently put to death? How about if they think child molestors should be put to death. Are they inciting criminal activities? What they want would be murder under the current system.

I think that within the US, its a hard sell to say that "The government should take X action" is incitement, since change in the government is what Americans feel the first amendment is for more than anything else. It would be nice if we could carve out exceptions for certain terrible ideas, but I don't think our framework of talking about speech has room for special categories like that.
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Old 17th November 2019, 09:35 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You guys are arguing over Peterson. The Guardian article explains the nuance and I'd have to vote on alt-right pretending not to be. Sorry if it's been posted already, I didn't look at the links to keep an open mind.

Oh the burden of the university addressing gender biased language.

It goes on and is worth a look.

Seems to me this is a hero of the alt-right. I don't see much in the article that makes him not alt-right. But I do see a lot of reasons the alt-right wants to parade this guy as being normal, so see, the alt-right is normal!
Hillary is your hero. It's comical how high of a horse you think you sit on. I don't believe Peterson is responsible for mass human casualties a la your hero, but go ahead making a fool of yourself thinking Medium, Guardian, and Vox aren't provocateurs of agenda-driven clickbait. It was easy to spot a fundamentalist retard in the 90s when they would quote Fox News. This is the same thing.
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Old 17th November 2019, 09:55 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But should we listen to these right wing "snowflakes" complaining and whining or just ignore them and recognise they are thin skinned?
I've never voted Republican or Libertarian in my life. I've been called racist, misogynist, alt-right, a Nazi too many times to count starting in 2015, no instances prior. I've had accounts banned from reddit and twitter for "rules" violations. For twitter is was for this quote, "I fully admit to being a retard in this retarded world". It was in response to an image of a Time Magazine cover someone doctored to say that everyone was retarded. They called it hate speech. I've been banned from countless subreddits from r/news to /worldnews, to r/NFL, to r/NBA. How many times do you think I was banned for actually breaking rules? You have no idea and you likely assume in your ignorance that the 50+ times it has happened that it just had to be a good reason. No, the truth is that we now live in a culture of censorship. Five years ago the internet was a safe place to express yourself and your ideas. Now facebook friends unfriend you, reddit moderators silence you, you get fired from your job for a past tweet, youtube demonitizes your videos, paypal bans pornhub sexworkers from use of service, unsuspecting people are shadowbanned across many platforms, and ******** cheer it on from the sidelines pretending that all is well in the world when people like me are continually marginalized for the daring mistake of having the wrong opinion. I just have to say, I am absolutely disgusted by many of the people posting here.

Last edited by Kakstaj; 17th November 2019 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 17th November 2019, 10:34 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I just want to live in a world where people aren't able to publicly discuss how I should be killed.
I don't want to live in a world where people like you dictate what I am allowed to say. I would kill for that right as would a lot of people.
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Old 17th November 2019, 10:48 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nazis want to rid their society of those they consider undesirable, inferior and so on. The Nazi solution (which we have seen implemented) is to either use death camps or as slave labour were they will be worked to death. Anytime a Nazi talks about implementing Nazism they are talking about killing me.
It just boggles my mind how ignorant you are of the monumental creep in censorship all across the internet and society, but you have this idea that there is a significant percentage of people seriously discussing the implementation of Nazism. I can tell you, my encounters with people having a serious discussion of the implentation of Nazism - 0, my encounters with examples of censorship - utterly thousands. Just read r/watchredditdie for a taste of the arbitrary standards with which discussions are monitored on just one platform.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:24 AM   #247
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There is a big difference between someone trying to whip up fury and to get a group together to go out and attack other people that they do not like or want to be living where they live and someone who promotes a political movement that wants a political solution to what they see as a problem with immigrants.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:28 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a big difference between someone trying to whip up fury and to get a group together to go out and attack other people that they do not like or want to be living where they live and someone who promotes a political movement that wants a political solution to what they see as a problem with immigrants.
Sure. But I'd wager that if the political solution is to kick everyone who isn't racially or ethnically pure enough out, it's only a matter of time before they start supporting the jackbooted thugs, even though they'll want to maintain plausible deniability at first.
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Old 18th November 2019, 04:56 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Kakstaj View Post
I've never voted Republican or Libertarian in my life. I've been called racist, misogynist, alt-right, a Nazi too many times to count starting in 2015, no instances prior. I've had accounts banned from reddit and twitter for "rules" violations. For twitter is was for this quote, "I fully admit to being a retard in this retarded world". It was in response to an image of a Time Magazine cover someone doctored to say that everyone was retarded. They called it hate speech. I've been banned from countless subreddits from r/news to /worldnews, to r/NFL, to r/NBA. How many times do you think I was banned for actually breaking rules? You have no idea and you likely assume in your ignorance that the 50+ times it has happened that it just had to be a good reason. No, the truth is that we now live in a culture of censorship. Five years ago the internet was a safe place to express yourself and your ideas. Now facebook friends unfriend you, reddit moderators silence you, you get fired from your job for a past tweet, youtube demonitizes your videos, paypal bans pornhub sexworkers from use of service, unsuspecting people are shadowbanned across many platforms, and ******** cheer it on from the sidelines pretending that all is well in the world when people like me are continually marginalized for the daring mistake of having the wrong opinion. I just have to say, I am absolutely disgusted by many of the people posting here.
Er...

That's nice. No idea what you are going on about but I'm sure you feel better for getting that off your chest.
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Old 18th November 2019, 04:56 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Kakstaj View Post
I don't want to live in a world where people like you dictate what I am allowed to say. I would kill for that right as would a lot of people.
People like me?
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Old 18th November 2019, 05:02 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Kakstaj View Post
It just boggles my mind how ignorant you are of the monumental creep in censorship all across the internet and society, but you have this idea that there is a significant percentage of people seriously discussing the implementation of Nazism. I can tell you, my encounters with people having a serious discussion of the implentation of Nazism - 0, my encounters with examples of censorship - utterly thousands. Just read r/watchredditdie for a taste of the arbitrary standards with which discussions are monitored on just one platform.
Again that's nice and I'm sure you feel better with it out than in, but if no one is labeling themselves a Nazi then no one would fall foul of being 'censored" for being a Nazi. Unfortunately there are still many self labelled Nazis in countries like the USA.

And I put censored in quotes as I do not want them censored, I want much more than that I want Nazis rendered impotent, I want them treated like we do any other terrorists.
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Old 18th November 2019, 05:17 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a big difference between someone trying to whip up fury and to get a group together to go out and attack other people that they do not like or want to be living where they live and someone who promotes a political movement that wants a political solution to what they see as a problem with immigrants.
And thankfully Nazis make it easy to know where they stand on that scale.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:28 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Sure. But I'd wager that if the political solution is to kick everyone who isn't racially or ethnically pure enough out, it's only a matter of time before they start supporting the jackbooted thugs, even though they'll want to maintain plausible deniability at first.
The same freedom of speech that allows the NSDAP to expound their views, is the same freedom of speech that helps to protect us from the likes of the NSDAP getting into power.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:32 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Alt-right is short for alternative facts reality.



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Says who?

Did the term start before Kellyanne Conway choked on "alternative facts"?
I thought you were kidding, but now you are doubling down. Weird. Just in case, "alt-right" does not mean "alternative facts reality" or anything at all to do with Kellyanne Conway.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I see some folks have forgotten yet again who coined the term "alt.right", and why. It was a deliberate construction promulgated by neo-Nazi leader Richard Spenser, explicitly to clean up the image of fascist white supremacists and make them appeal more to mainstream white people.
This is correct.


https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...hite-supremacy

This is a bit more than a semantic nitpick; it's important that people understand who and what the alt right is, as a major political party has flirted with them and won the Presidency. The alt-right is part of a very long-term vision (like 25 years plus) of mainstreaming Nazi beliefs.

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Old 18th November 2019, 08:34 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And thankfully Nazis make it easy to know where they stand on that scale.
The NSDAP included in their original "manifesto" such policies as the expansion of welfare for the elderly, greater share of profits, prohibition of child labour, a national education system and freedom of religion.

Even lunatics can come up with good ideas, even if it is purely by chance.
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Old 18th November 2019, 09:13 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again that's nice and I'm sure you feel better with it out than in, but if no one is labeling themselves a Nazi then no one would fall foul of being 'censored" for being a Nazi.
I don't think that's true. I think the moment you allow for censoring Nazis because they are Nazis, then people will be labelled Nazis in order to censor them. Actual Nazis will stop calling themselves Nazis, so it won't even work without censoring people who claim they aren't Nazis. And if you think the power to censor people for being Nazis won't be abused by labeling non-Nazis as Nazis, then you don't understand humans.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And thankfully Nazis make it easy to know where they stand on that scale.
And that's another merit of free speech. They make it easy to identify them precisely because they're allowed to say what they really believe. But they won't stop believing it just because you don't allow them to say it. And now you don't know who they are, because you're making them hide.

As Hank Hill said, "I think body piercings are a good thing. That way you can tell if something's not right with a person."
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Old 18th November 2019, 09:32 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
People like me?
I was going to say, you technically have the ability to dictate what he says here right now in this thread accusing you of being some kind of cryptofascist. LOL
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Old 18th November 2019, 09:46 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. I think the moment you allow for censoring Nazis because they are Nazis, then people will be labelled Nazis in order to censor them. Actual Nazis will stop calling themselves Nazis, so it won't even work without censoring people who claim they aren't Nazis. And if you think the power to censor people for being Nazis won't be abused by labeling non-Nazis as Nazis, then you don't understand humans.



And that's another merit of free speech. They make it easy to identify them precisely because they're allowed to say what they really believe. But they won't stop believing it just because you don't allow them to say it. And now you don't know who they are, because you're making them hide.

As Hank Hill said, "I think body piercings are a good thing. That way you can tell if something's not right with a person."
Yeah.

I idolize Europe in most ways, but they can keep the hate speech laws.

I'm pretty hard core about the necessity of this mentality: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Problematic behavior that's criminal can be addressed via other laws.
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:05 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah.

I idolize Europe in most ways, but they can keep the hate speech laws.

I'm pretty hard core about the necessity of this mentality: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
And then they win over the people and legally enact concentration camps for gays and that is just the system working with the winning memes winning.
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:06 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The same freedom of speech that allows the NSDAP to expound their views, is the same freedom of speech that helps to protect us from the likes of the NSDAP getting into power.
I doubt it. They didn't get into power because they weren't allowed to speak, nor by rationally convincing people with their free speech. They want to be included in debates to gain some standing and normalise their views, and as soon as they feel secure they'll start to suppress the free speech of others. They're not engaging in good faith.

I don't think the West will succumb to Nazism, or view them as an acceptable option until things become much worse for the average citizen, and I don't think banning speech we don't like is the way forward.
But I also think it's a mistake to see ideologies like fascism as something that can be opposed rationally, or be reasoned with. They're not rational, and not interested in being reasonable.
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:08 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I doubt it. They didn't get into power because they weren't allowed to speak, nor by rationally convincing people with their free speech. They want to be included in debates to gain some standing and normalise their views, and as soon as they feel secure they'll start to suppress the free speech of others. They're not engaging in good faith.
Yea they got into power by winning some elections and then being a useful minority party to fight the communists.
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:44 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And then they win over the people and legally enact concentration camps for gays and that is just the system working with the winning memes winning.
Hate speech laws don't prevent concentration camps. I wish they could. I mean that.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:32 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The same freedom of speech that allows the NSDAP to expound their views, is the same freedom of speech that helps to protect us from the likes of the NSDAP getting into power.
Rubbish. Not all speech is the same action. Saying "Let's kill all the queers" is not balanced by someone saying "Let's not kill all the queers".

What is gained in our society by allowing the first to be an action that has no consequences?
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:37 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The NSDAP included in their original "manifesto" such policies as the expansion of welfare for the elderly, greater share of profits, prohibition of child labour, a national education system and freedom of religion.



Even lunatics can come up with good ideas, even if it is purely by chance.
We are not discussing the NSDAP, that no longer exists, we are discussing Nazis today. Nazis today wish to implement the same policies that resulted in the killing, injury and dislocation of millions of people. That is why they self identify as Nazis.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:39 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. I think the moment you allow for censoring Nazis because they are Nazis, then people will be labelled Nazis in order to censor them. Actual Nazis will stop calling themselves Nazis, so it won't even work without censoring people who claim they aren't Nazis. And if you think the power to censor people for being Nazis won't be abused by labeling non-Nazis as Nazis, then you don't understand humans.







And that's another merit of free speech. They make it easy to identify them precisely because they're allowed to say what they really believe. But they won't stop believing it just because you don't allow them to say it. And now you don't know who they are, because you're making them hide.



As Hank Hill said, "I think body piercings are a good thing. That way you can tell if something's not right with a person."
Yet in the UK we do manage to "censor" many people with abhorrent views that want to kill their fellow citizens without succumbing to your slippery slope.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:42 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Hate speech laws don't prevent concentration camps. I wish they could. I mean that.
How do you know? That's a sincere and serious question, it seems to me this is really just an article of faith.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:55 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Hate speech laws don't prevent concentration camps. I wish they could. I mean that.
And really we shouldn't have laws against incitement then either. Because as long as you are advocating violence against class instead of an individual you are totally safe.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:56 AM   #268
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I think it's a bit overblown on both sides of this issue. How large is this college censorship really? Just looked on FIRE website about dis-invited speakers, for 2018 they list a whopping 18. 2019 is currently at 38. That's across thousands of universities and I assume 10's of thousands of speaking occasions. Maybe it's time to pump the breaks on how widespread a problem this is, or if it is expanding with any consistent momentum.

Beyond that, I think the premise is stupid. In what way is rejecting Ben Shapiro from speaking limiting his platform from becoming acceptable or mainstream? He appears on mainstream new networks. Has a radio show, 2.4m followers on twitter etc. Who exactly is being protected by an in person event being cancelled? Jeff Sessions can run for his old seat but having him in person is dangerously pushing his ideals mainstream? It's comical.

As for literal Nazi or Nazi-lite speakers being given a platform, who thinks the limited seating at a college event is going to be converting people to their mindset? Do you think on the fence people are spending money to attend? Is their ability to view these peoples thoughts limited due to in person meetings as opposed to them just searching on their phone for the exact same information they can/do provide?

Exposure is what they want, and all this stuff seems to give them much more than they would ever receive by a single speaking engagement.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:56 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you know? That's a sincere and serious question, it seems to me this is really just an article of faith.
Hate speech seems more consistent with concentration camps, somehow. Totalitarian regimes like Communist China and the Soviet Union established strict laws about acceptable speech (and act, and thought), and also established substantial infrastructure for segregating, incarcerating, and "re-educating" people who expressed "incorrect thought".

I think what actually prevents concentration camps is a society that offers better alternatives to whatever the totalitarians are peddling. Nobody pays much attention to American neo-Nazis because the vast majority of Americans have way better options than neo-Nazism. Most societies do. Weimar Germany did not. That, more than anything else, I think, made Nazism attractive enough to gain a foothold.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:02 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The same freedom of speech that allows the NSDAP to expound their views, is the same freedom of speech that helps to protect us from the likes of the NSDAP getting into power.
Great little attempt at a sound-bite but no.


Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The NSDAP included in their original "manifesto" such policies as the expansion of welfare for the elderly, greater share of profits, prohibition of child labour, a national education system and freedom of religion.

Even lunatics can come up with good ideas, even if it is purely by chance.
Yes, adopt the language of the left because they're very good ideas that people actually want. Guess who actually did the hard work and passed social and governmental reforms in the US and other places throughout the world in the teens and twenties? The communists and socialists mainly.

The very people who are vilified and excoriated now. The right were helpless to do much about it when the unions were strong; when people had tremendous solidarity. When people were united.

And guess who sits around and talks about the poor, the middle class, and immigration? The liberals and centrists.

And guess who else sits around and talks about the poor, the middle class and immigration (mainly how bad and evil they are)? The right.

My long-winded answer here is that everyone talks about what they think will be good for the peons of the world; that simply means ya gotta look at what they actually do to figure out how to label them (if that's something that's contextually important).

So, no, it isn't just happenstance that fascists will steal phrasings and language of people who actually care about humanity; they sure don't care. But they really want whatever it takes to get them into power, and in the USA, that's votes.



Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's true. I think the moment you allow for censoring Nazis because they are Nazis, then people will be labelled Nazis in order to censor them.
Got any evidence of this?


Quote:
Actual Nazis will stop calling themselves Nazis, so it won't even work without censoring people who claim they aren't Nazis. And if you think the power to censor people for being Nazis won't be abused by labeling non-Nazis as Nazis, then you don't understand humans.
Oh, hahahahaha! You're gonna go there?



Quote:
And that's another merit of free speech. They make it easy to identify them precisely because they're allowed to say what they really believe.
Nazi symbology has been criminalized in Germany; do you think they struggle in finding the neo-Nazis and their alt-right?


Quote:
But they won't stop believing it just because you don't allow them to say it.
This is a strawman at worst, simply irrelevant at best. Wrong tool for the job, mate.


Quote:
And now you don't know who they are, because you're making them hide.
Good.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:06 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet in the UK we do manage to "censor" many people with abhorrent views that want to kill their fellow citizens without succumbing to your slippery slope.
You seem to think the UK isn't paying any price for its censorship. I don't think that's true. You might find the price acceptable, but it isn't zero.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:12 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet in the UK we do manage to "censor" many people with abhorrent views that want to kill their fellow citizens without succumbing to your slippery slope.
What tangible effect have those laws had? Specifically, what was their purpose and has it actually made a difference? Don't take this as snippy, I actually don't know if it has been studied at all to give some level of confidence in how it's implementation has been useful and to what degree.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:14 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you know? That's a sincere and serious question, it seems to me this is really just an article of faith.
Speech restrictions didn't prevent the Nazis, even though such laws were in place and were used against the Nazis. So we know that they have failed before. Have they also succeeded before? We can't really know.

But given that dictatorships universally rely upon speech restriction laws, I would say they are a definite risk for an uncertain and possibly illusory reward, and so not worth it.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:34 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rubbish. Not all speech is the same action. Saying "Let's kill all the queers" is not balanced by someone saying "Let's not kill all the queers".

What is gained in our society by allowing the first to be an action that has no consequences?

I am not advocating supporting a direct threat of violence, like lets kill gays. I am advocating freedom of speech for those who may not want gay rights
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:38 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We are not discussing the NSDAP, that no longer exists, we are discussing Nazis today. Nazis today wish to implement the same policies that resulted in the killing, injury and dislocation of millions of people. That is why they self identify as Nazis.
My point is that I am not advocating freedom of speech for direct threats to harm others. I am advocating it for those who have extreme views and who want to engage in genuine discussion and debate.

If "Nazis" appear ready for a genuine debate at a Uni, fine. If they march without permission around the Uni attacking coloured students, not fine.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:49 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not advocating supporting a direct threat of violence, like lets kill gays. I am advocating freedom of speech for those who may not want gay rights
Yea like the good old days when it was just a crime. Nothing violent about locking up all the gays.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:50 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My point is that I am not advocating freedom of speech for direct threats to harm others. I am advocating it for those who have extreme views and who want to engage in genuine discussion and debate.

If "Nazis" appear ready for a genuine debate at a Uni, fine. If they march without permission around the Uni attacking coloured students, not fine.
So when Richard Spencer was giving the talk at the university of Florida that was both fine and not ok when his supporters were taking pot shots at protesters?

Have we truly found Schrodinger's free speech?
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:59 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rubbish. Not all speech is the same action. Saying "Let's kill all the queers" is not balanced by someone saying "Let's not kill all the queers".

What is gained in our society by allowing the first to be an action that has no consequences?
That would be "inciting violence" (illegal) over here.
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Old 18th November 2019, 01:04 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you know? That's a sincere and serious question, it seems to me this is really just an article of faith.
Because Trump's policies didn't come from rednecks and normal neonazis, but from more "elite" white nationalists who all talk in code, anyway, to disguise the ideology. You can't ban ideas without being completely scarily totalitarian. It doesn't work. I really don't see how hate speech laws would have prevented Trump from putting immigrants in concentration camps.
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Old 18th November 2019, 01:12 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So when Richard Spencer was giving the talk at the university of Florida that was both fine and not ok when his supporters were taking pot shots at protesters?

Have we truly found Schrodinger's free speech?
Trying to put across a point of view by argument in a debate is very different from acts of violence or intimidation.
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