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Old 8th June 2015, 03:38 PM   #201
Oystein
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
In science publishing a paper and not releasing also contradicting experimental results is considered fraudulent, unethical. That's what those people did in the original thermite paper. ...
Huh? I so disagree with that claim!!

They put a lot of contradicting data in the paper!
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Old 8th June 2015, 03:53 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Huh? I so disagree with that claim!!

They put a lot of contradicting data in the paper!

What I remember from the discussions was that their data (the ones they published) varied in quality but not contradictory, their methodology sucked, the conclusions were self serving confirmation bias with unsupported opinions. What they did was to conduct tests, FTIR and others that they promised to release but did not, that Millette used to prove paint; this is scientific fraud. They lied to themselves first.

Did you notice that when they described the gray layer -a homogenous plate of iron with a little carbon they didn't know what it was and concluded it needed further study to determine its purpose in thermite!
"In addition, the gray-layer material demands further study. What is its purpose? Sometimes the gray material appears in multiple layers, as seen in Fig.(32)."
It was easy for Millette to identify steel.
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Last edited by BasqueArch; 8th June 2015 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 8th June 2015, 06:24 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Huh? I so disagree with that claim!!

They put a lot of contradicting data in the paper!
More seriously, though, BasqueArch has a point. Harrit said that the resistivity test was done on a random sample of chips, yet they published the results for only one of them without reference to the other results. I hope Basile does a better job. As Feynman put it:
For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid--not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked--to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can--if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong--to explain it. If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it.
http://neurotheory.columbia.edu/~ken/cargo_cult.html
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Old 9th June 2015, 08:05 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I can't help comparing the silence and secrecy of Basile with the full transparency that Chris Mohr always had with the donors (and everyone else), when he hired Millette.

Makes one wonder if Basile has something to hide.
A thousand somethings.
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Old 9th June 2015, 06:58 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
A thousand somethings.
Plus interest, of course over the next two centuries, until the donors figure this out if they
Ever do.
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Old 10th June 2015, 06:37 PM   #206
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The first stories that I can find of Basile's nanothermite project are from late 2010. So that's over 4 1/2 years now for something that would take only days to do and could be financed with a credit card.
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Old 10th June 2015, 07:14 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
The first stories that I can find of Basile's nanothermite project are from late 2010. So that's over 4 1/2 years now for something that would take only days to do and could be financed with a credit card.
Basile seems like a nice guy and means well. But in science meaning well is not enough you have to be right. He has been duped, and a duper, a sucker and responsible for persuading other suckers of his false claims.

He now has to ask himself - should (1) I admit to my conspiracist buddies I and you have been wrong all along or (2) should I say nothing and hope it will all go away and I can live with myself without being called to accounts and expose myself to peer and debunker public humiliation. My most important goal is to be happy with myself- (3) what's the most believable reason I can come up with to quietly bow out of this whole fiasco. Of course I'm honest and meant well, I will return all the unspent monies.
I believe (3).
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Old 11th June 2015, 12:41 AM   #208
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I don't get this.

"Meaning well" implies "going to do honest science and intend to publish the results, no matter what they are".

Why should it be a problem for Basile to just do exactly what he proposed to do? Send red-gray chips to labs along with the money? Relieves him of the burden to be the one who produced the damning results. He does not depend professionally or personally on Harrit or Jones, does he? He's attached enough disclaimers to his statements in the past to be able to save face.
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Old 11th June 2015, 05:30 AM   #209
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I think it's at least possible that there is a study underway now. I had the same problem when I tried to work with Kevin Ryan on the red-grey chips years ago. No trust. They fear that one of us will somehow sabotage the study so they are keeping it from us. Then there will be a final report for everyone to see.
But the longer this drags on, the less credible this benign hypothesis seems.
Time will tell I suppose.
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Old 11th June 2015, 06:02 AM   #210
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Agreed, Chris, and I have always stressed that I ultimately trust in Basile's character, but time really is not on his side here. He made a promise to do monthly accounting once funds begin to get spent. Here is a complete enumeration of the possibilities:

a) Funds have not yet begun to get spent (i.e. no study at professional labs underway)
b) Mark broke his promise
c) Mark is dead

None of these possibilities bodes well for him.
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Old 11th June 2015, 09:49 AM   #211
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Oystein,
(d) Mark has a new girlfriend, which would hopefully bode well for him!
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Old 11th June 2015, 01:25 PM   #212
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(e) Mark has separated out the samples (about a year ago) but, can't get a check out of Rick to send them for analysis.

Mark has seen the light and knows where the money has gone.
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Old 11th June 2015, 01:47 PM   #213
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I lost interest years ago actually following "truther" sites. Has any of these sites (I'm not even sure there are any left) questioned what happened to this study?

Just as a side. What "truther" forums are left?
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Old 11th June 2015, 02:05 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I lost interest years ago actually following "truther" sites. Has any of these sites (I'm not even sure there are any left) questioned what happened to this study?

Just as a side. What "truther" forums are left?
LCF and the UK 9/11 forum are dead as dodos.
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Old 11th June 2015, 03:18 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Oystein,
(d) Mark has a new girlfriend, which would hopefully bode well for him!
This would fall under "b) Mark broke his promise"

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
(e) Mark has separated out the samples (about a year ago) but, can't get a check out of Rick to send them for analysis.

Mark has seen the light and knows where the money has gone.
This might fall under "a) Funds have not yet begun to get spent (i.e. no study at professional labs underway)", unless the point is that the funds have been "spent" on something else.
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Old 11th June 2015, 03:24 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I lost interest years ago actually following "truther" sites. Has any of these sites (I'm not even sure there are any left) questioned what happened to this study?

Just as a side. What "truther" forums are left?
911Blogger still has some life. Most of the posts there are either ae911truth news items, or concerned with politics, whether directly related to 9/11 or not. Plus Jon Gold promoting his... oh I never checked what he has - a video blog or something. Plus Corbett report announcements.
Very little technical arguments, nothing on thermite or explosives in a few months.

I have a lazy eye on a couple of facebook groups (those that haven't banned me already). But mostly on their numbers, not their content.
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Old 11th June 2015, 03:33 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
This might fall under "a) Funds have not yet begun to get spent (i.e. no study at professional labs underway)", unless the point is that the funds have been "spent" on something else.
This is the point. Where is there any accounting of funds at all? We know there is a $1000 award for a "debate" that never happened awarded by a person, to a person that controls the study.

If there were actually "truthers" they should be asking Rich, Show us the money!
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Old 11th June 2015, 03:49 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
This is the point. Where is there any accounting of funds at all? We know there is a $1000 award for a "debate" that never happened awarded by a person, to a person that controls the study.

If there were actually "truthers" they should be asking Rich, Show us the money!
It is my understanding that some of the donations went directly to Mark Basile's personal PayPal account, and another part was collected by Rick Shaddock. Rick claims that Mark has access to all of the funds.
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Old 11th June 2015, 05:41 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It is my understanding that some of the donations went directly to Mark Basile's personal PayPal account, and another part was collected by Rick Shaddock. Rick claims that Mark has access to all of the funds.
I'm seeing claims............just asking questions....

Funny how not a single "truther" is looking for full transparency.
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Old 13th June 2015, 08:54 AM   #220
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He's not getting the answers he would like, so delay, delay, delay...
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Old 13th June 2015, 11:11 AM   #221
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I am still somewhat confident that he hasn't come around to mailing something of to labs - procrastination or real life issues, sth like that.
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Old 14th June 2015, 12:19 PM   #222
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And now a brief musical interlude while we await Basile's Thermite Study denouement.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xus...ene_shortfilms
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A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.
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Old 14th June 2015, 01:24 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
And now a brief musical interlude while we await Basile's Thermite Study denouement.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xus...ene_shortfilms
Too short, we are in for a longer haul.

Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QH4iErUxeE
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Old 14th June 2015, 02:31 PM   #224
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Wow, 4:33 suddenly got an entirely different meaning.

(ok ok, John Cage's is written 4'33")
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Old 14th June 2015, 04:32 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Wow, 4:33 suddenly got an entirely different meaning.

(ok ok, John Cage's is written 4'33")
I've never been a musical person.

A few of my friends are. I got pressured into "playing bass" during a Friday night round a friend's house after one of the lads had brought round a home built cajón. I was instructed to to "play" a note 4 times and then repeated for a total of 12 and then a different note 4 times to make up the 16. I think the 4 notes together are called a "bar". I know all about this music malarky you see.

After about 15 minutes I began to pick it up and this little impromptu jam session began to take form with a friend on the cajon, and two on guitar (one electric, the other acoustic).

All of a sudden things "clicked" and I could actually feel a cohesion; I could actually hear what the others were playing in time with what I was doing attempting. That brief felt time of cohesion was a very weird, but satisfying experience.

90 seconds after this point it all went "pear-shaped" as I played 5 notes to the bar. There was laughter all around.

Apparently the concentration on my face was a delight to watch as I tried to do something so rudimentary! I did indeed have my tongue out to the side and brow furrowed, like a child, whilst concentrating wholeheartedly on the timing.

There's more chance of me becoming competent with a musical instrument than seeing the results from Basile's study. Unless it's the triangle of course, which I mastered age 6 during a school nativity play.

Ting!

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Old 14th June 2015, 07:29 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Too short, we are in for a longer haul.

Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QH4iErUxeE
Sorry Oystein, Wagner’s Parsifal is a 4.5 hr long haul bore, too many notes.

“I have been told that Wagner's music is better than it sounds.”
-- Mark Twain, Autobiography (1924)

“That kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going three hours you look at your watch and it says 6.20.”
-- David Randolph on Wagner's opera Parzifal (Parsifal)

Don’t even ask Nietzsche’s assessment.

The haul is over; Humes’ Proportional Evidence Law has proven all of the Truther’s paranoid fantasies wrong.

New suckers are born every day and their pipsqueak opinions will plague humanity like fleas do.

Short and rock ‘n roll is all that’s left.

Thanks for your help on the thermite issue.
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Old 15th June 2015, 12:38 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Wow, 4:33 suddenly got an entirely different meaning.

(ok ok, John Cage's is written 4'33")
Speaking of John Cage, they are performing his Organ˛/ASLSP ("As SLow As Possible") as I write, in Halberstadt, Germany. The performance began on September 5, 2001 with a pause of 17 months. "The last note change occurred on October 5, 2013. The next change will not occur until 2020. The performance is scheduled to end on September 5, 2640."WP

http://www.aslsp.org/de/

That's the fitting musical score. It's only eight pages of music!
I am sure even Sunstealer could learn to play it on the go.
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Old 15th June 2015, 12:26 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Funny how not a single "truther" is looking for full transparency.
Three and two days ago, two truthers at 911Blogger inquired about the progress:

dtg86: ?
Originally Posted by dtg86
Is there activity with this? Anyone know? One update last August '14. Was an independent lab able to be chosen? anything? aborted?

just curious..

tx
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Originally Posted by RL McGee
Do you know if Mark has subjected any samples to labs yet for testing? His 5 K fundraiser was achieved in Aug. of 2014. I haven't heard anything from AE about any results, so I assume it's still dragging on. Check out the pdf and links. http://www.markbasile.org/
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Old 24th June 2015, 12:41 AM   #229
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While we are waiting, I have to share this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



(The 10-hour version of "Hitler - Gangnam Style" isn't as well done at the seams)
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Old 25th June 2015, 07:48 PM   #230
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Oystein,
FYI I performed a world premiere live of John Cage's "15 Domestic Minutes," which was great fun for all of us public radio geeks-- but something like 9 people at National Public Radio got fired the next day for airing it! I was Turntable 2 in Denver, playing randomly selected tracks with ten other DJs around the country at the same time.
The John Cage piece As Slow As Possible is a great way to ensure immortality in that his music is now guaranteed to be performed uninterrupted for centuries to come.
And yes, Sunstealer could have played my part.
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Old 26th June 2015, 03:24 PM   #231
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Has Mark actually published the exact criteria he used (or will use) to select the correct chip?

Arguments I've seen lately seem to indicate you need to destroy the sample in order to know if it's right. How can you do an independent study if you never know if the sample is correct?

I doubt it but, maybe our resident "truther" representative Ziggi could answer this.
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Old 26th June 2015, 03:34 PM   #232
Oystein
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Has Mark actually published the exact criteria he used (or will use) to select the correct chip?
In his old lab proposal, he wrote:
Originally Posted by Mark Basile
Sample Preparation:

- Red/gray chip separation using optical microscopy and magnetic attraction to assist in isolation of particles of interest.

- Optical images of collected particulates as collected at appropriate magnifications to record condition as collected.
That's only the the two known criteria described by Harrit et al.


In his latest, August 2014, report, he wrote:
Originally Posted by Mark Basile
Once visual screening and sorting is completed the red/gray chips will be evaluated for the presence of reactivity with production of molten iron. ... The goal here is to find the best candidates for outside facility work.

The thermal screen test has been changed from my early system which was a stainless steel resistive heater strip that could heat the particles being screened, to a small tube furnace where the chips in a container are heated to 450 degrees C in air or nitrogen.
Sooo what he said in the 2012 radio interview - you can tell the "right" chips by their reactivity. However, the obvious problem here is that after the heat test, the specimen is destroyed... No explanation how he would deal with this.

However, Rick Shaddock has told me in private emails that thermal testing is off the schedule. I believe this refers to tests proposed to be done by the labs after selection. Not sure.
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Old 26th June 2015, 04:02 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Mark Basile
The goal here is to find the best candidates for outside facility work.
This basically says it all. There is always the "wrong chip" out because there is no way to determine if the chip is correct unless the results confirm the intended conclusion (or "truthers" have total faith in Basile).

I'd be interested to see if Ziggi also sees this as a fatal flaw in the independence of this study.
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Old 26th June 2015, 11:55 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
This basically says it all. There is always the "wrong chip" out because there is no way to determine if the chip is correct unless the results confirm the intended conclusion (or "truthers" have total faith in Basile).

I'd be interested to see if Ziggi also sees this as a fatal flaw in the independence of this study.
I'd be interested to see if Ziggi also sees themal testing as a necessary step of the chip selection process, a criterion that no researcher can do without. And then if he agrees that Harrit et al never subjected chips a-d and the MEK chip to thermal testing (or failed to document that they did). It would be very interesting to see if Ziggi also sees this failure as a terminal flaw of the Harrit et al paper, instantly invalidating all results and conclusions, for they may very well have looked at the "wrong" chips all along.
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Old 27th June 2015, 04:37 AM   #235
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It's hilarious if truthers think that heating a chip up to 700°C in order to get the correct exotherm, thereby destroying it in the process, is some how a necessary step in selecting the "right" chip.

How do they expect an independent lab to do work on a "the right sort" of chip when it has been destroyed?
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Old 27th June 2015, 04:44 AM   #236
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Maybe they hope to find aluminium oxide in the residue?
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Old 27th June 2015, 05:47 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Maybe they hope to find aluminium oxide in the residue?
There is no mention of Al oxide/alumina/Al2O3 in Basike's lab proposal.
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Old 2nd August 2015, 10:55 AM   #238
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Well, it's August and Basile's donors still don't even have an excuse for why there's been no progress report in the past year. Is anyone sure that Basile is still around, or did the NWO disappear him?
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Old 2nd August 2015, 12:23 PM   #239
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Mark took a remedial physics class and figured out his claims on 911 were idiotic BS based on ... idiotic BS, a recursive kind of ignorance. So he dropped the study, and drank the money...
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Old 3rd August 2015, 02:34 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, it's August and Basile's donors still don't even have an excuse for why there's been no progress report in the past year. Is anyone sure that Basile is still around, or did the NWO disappear him?
Ziggi must have read your plea - or he even reacted very quickly to an email that I wrote Rick Shaddock (Cc: JM Talboo, Mark Basile) about 12.5 hours ago. Here is what he posted their (Ziggi's, JM's, Adam Taylor's...) blog "Debunking the Debunkers":

Mark Basile Red/Gray Chip Study Back on Track

Sounds good? Well... read the full text:
Originally Posted by Ziggi Zugam
It has been almost a full year since we posted our last update, and some of our readers were starting to express concern about the lack of new updates.

We are happy to report that Mark Basile´s red/gray chip study is finally back on track, after prolonged delays due to various problems that will not be detailed here. I am sure, however, that most of our supporters knew and realized from the beginning that encountering some "friction" was not unexpected.

Mark Basile will (in addition to his own testing) delegate work to an independent lab (or several labs) sometime this fall, in order to confirm his own results - as promised in our fundraising campaign.

We hope to give you another update in early October.

Thank you all for your donations and patience!
No word on what has been done. No word on when they will send samples. No word on if they have selected any specimens. No word on if they have selected any lab. No word on if and how the testing protocol has been changed from the original proposal (cue Rick, blabbing about this - I paraphrase - 'new (invented in the 1940s) Raman spectroscopy that Mark is looking into')

In other words: "Nothing has been done in one year. Sorry for procrastinating. The money looked real pretty in our bank account, thanks for throwing it at us!"

[ETA]
Quite revealing of the truther mindset is this sentence: "Mark Basile will ... delegate work to an independent lab ... in order to confirm his own results".
The objective therefore is not analyze the red material and establish once and for all what it really is, and all its constituents (the identity of the organic binder, the identity of all the pigments, the exact composition of the gray oxidize structural steel layer) - no, the objective os to confirm their silly prejudice. They still don't grasp that among Mark's results was that he determined that the Al- and Fe- content is so extremely low (under 2 and 3%, respectively), compared to the organic content (>70%), that the observed exotherm reaction (the energy yield) must have been fulled to >99% by organic combustion on air - not a thermite reaction
[/ETA]

Perhaps Ziggi, when he reads this, can elaborate a bit on all the great things Mark hasn't done!
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