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Tags aa77 , cit , Craig McKee , David Chandler

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Old 7th October 2015, 04:50 AM   #1
Oystein
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Schisms

We all know the Great Schisms within Trutherdom:

The Unholy Trinity of WTC destruction theories: Thermite - Nukes - DEW
LIHOP - MIHOP
I recently reported on the recent and developing schism over the "28 pages" issue (which may be the last LIHOP hurray)

And then there is the Great Schism over plane or no-plane at the Pentagon. T'aint exactly new, CIT's North-of-Citgo tales, and the stupidity of PffffT911 was debunked before I even arrived here - and of course they still live, and seem to represent a stronger majority of Truthers than ever.

Craig McKee now fires a delightful salvo to rekindle the war - or, you might say, David Chandler did. Anyway, McKee blogged four days ago:
Going full debunker: Chandler devotes most of Pentagon talk to boosting 9/11 official story

The warring parties are:
*) David Chandler (yes-plane, probably even AA77) and his minions
Frank Legge
Jonathan Cole
John Wyndham
Jim Hoffman
Ken Jenkins
Kevin Ryan
John Farmer

*) Craig McKee (no-plane) and his minions
Ken Freeland
Adam Ruff
Adam Syed
Massimo Mazzucco
James Hufferd
Paul Zarembka

I offer no quotes from the article or the comments - too much to rejoice over. Take a chunk of time, with a glass of wine, and read the entire thing, especially the comments!

You will find, uncomfortably wedged between the camps, Dan Noel, who sports as leader of AE911Truth's "Presenter Team" who suggests that the best way forward is to ignore the Pentagon altogether, in order not to appear split, unconvincing and silly

Which raises the question of where Richard Gage is standing - after all, he builds his position about WTC very much on what the Chandler/Cole have claimed; yet Craig McKee has been one of AE911T's most frugal writing contributors this and last year. Should we ask the architects and engineers?

And as an aside, the group is very much struggling with David Ray Griffin. DRG is of course the God figure of Trutherdom, and he seems to historically have leaned "yes plane". No one dares declaring that DRG is wrong, that would be blasphemy, but they are slowly getting there.

McKee claims that "no-plane at the Pentagon" is easily the majority position among truthers today, and he MAY be right. I started a poll at a new European AE911truth spin-off group at Facebook recently, and before it was deleted and I was kicked out, a solid majority voted "no plane". A little poll on the blog of Ken Doc about what happened at tjhe Pentagon on 9/11, started last december and answered by 68 so far, has 38% "missile" and 15% "fly-over" for a combined 53% "no plane impact", while 31% assume some plane hit. Ken Doc is the main guy at 9/11 Truth Movement, which is, to my knowledge, the largest Truther group on Facebook with currently over 38,000 members.


So, where else is the dirty laundry of schisms?
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Old 7th October 2015, 05:36 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
We all know the Great Schisms within Trutherdom:

The Unholy Trinity of WTC destruction theories: Thermite - Nukes - DEW
LIHOP - MIHOP
I recently reported on the recent and developing schism over the "28 pages" issue (which may be the last LIHOP hurray)

And then there is the Great Schism over plane or no-plane at the Pentagon. T'aint exactly new, CIT's North-of-Citgo tales, and the stupidity of PffffT911 was debunked before I even arrived here - and of course they still live, and seem to represent a stronger majority of Truthers than ever.

Craig McKee now fires a delightful salvo to rekindle the war - or, you might say, David Chandler did. Anyway, McKee blogged four days ago:
Going full debunker: Chandler devotes most of Pentagon talk to boosting 9/11 official story

The warring parties are:
*) David Chandler (yes-plane, probably even AA77) and his minions
Frank Legge
Jonathan Cole
John Wyndham
Jim Hoffman
Ken Jenkins
Kevin Ryan
John Farmer

*) Craig McKee (no-plane) and his minions
Ken Freeland
Adam Ruff
Adam Syed
Massimo Mazzucco
James Hufferd
Paul Zarembka

I offer no quotes from the article or the comments - too much to rejoice over. Take a chunk of time, with a glass of wine, and read the entire thing, especially the comments!

You will find, uncomfortably wedged between the camps, Dan Noel, who sports as leader of AE911Truth's "Presenter Team" who suggests that the best way forward is to ignore the Pentagon altogether, in order not to appear split, unconvincing and silly

Which raises the question of where Richard Gage is standing - after all, he builds his position about WTC very much on what the Chandler/Cole have claimed; yet Craig McKee has been one of AE911T's most frugal writing contributors this and last year. Should we ask the architects and engineers?

And as an aside, the group is very much struggling with David Ray Griffin. DRG is of course the God figure of Trutherdom, and he seems to historically have leaned "yes plane". No one dares declaring that DRG is wrong, that would be blasphemy, but they are slowly getting there.

McKee claims that "no-plane at the Pentagon" is easily the majority position among truthers today, and he MAY be right. I started a poll at a new European AE911truth spin-off group at Facebook recently, and before it was deleted and I was kicked out, a solid majority voted "no plane". A little poll on the blog of Ken Doc about what happened at tjhe Pentagon on 9/11, started last december and answered by 68 so far, has 38% "missile" and 15% "fly-over" for a combined 53% "no plane impact", while 31% assume some plane hit. Ken Doc is the main guy at 9/11 Truth Movement, which is, to my knowledge, the largest Truther group on Facebook with currently over 38,000 members.

So, where else is the dirty laundry of schisms?
Hasn't these people gotten enough attention from the "debunker community"? It's clear that they are not reading the arguments or participating in "debate' or discussion with the debunker community... It's a sort of willful ignorance which shows no signs of changing. Their thinking is flawed and it's been demonstrated many times. They offer no cohesive scenario, no mechanisms of the mechanical events, they operate from a position of naivete and ignorance of engineering, physics and science. They appear increasingly like a cult... with politically disgruntled followers who see everything through their political prism which distorts reality.

Really.... who cares? I find them sad or laughable but not worth the time. Who cares if they are self deluded? There is good information out there if people want to be informed.

++++

Yet there remains some level of fog about the actual mechanical mechanism "details" of these building collapses. This may be unimportant in the scheme of things or not. I suppose it would depend on the details.

And the truther community is not interested in that at all. The world is a cartoon to them... a Hollywood fx media event... all brought to us by an incredibly powerful cabal.

++++

Ignore them...

Last edited by JSanderO; 7th October 2015 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 7th October 2015, 06:48 AM   #3
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I think one "truther" schism is between those who sieve through the available evidence hunting for evidence confirming their conspiracy conclusions, and those who can easily tell themselves that any evidence that contradicts their conspiracy conclusions must be fake.

ETA: Maybe a better way to describe it is that the schism is between pseudo-scientists and mystics.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 7th October 2015 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 7th October 2015, 07:29 AM   #4
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I think one "truther" schism is between those who sieve through the available evidence hunting for evidence confirming their conspiracy conclusions, and those who can easily tell themselves that any evidence that contradicts their conspiracy conclusions must be fake.

ETA: Maybe a better way to describe it is that the schism is between pseudo-scientists and mystics.
I think that's more a matter of taxonomy than schisms, up to the point where they start arguing with each other. There are plenty of varieties of truther - one that I've only recently become aware of is the Progressive Collapse Denier - Jonathan Cole is the type specimen - whose irreducible delusion is that any form of disproportionate collapse is impossible; and yet, that particular sub-group seems perfectly comfortable with the Missing Jolt hypothesis, despite the contradiction inherent between, on the one hand, any progressive collapse being impossible, and, on the other, needing to look at the fine detail of a progressive collapse to know that particular mechanism was impossible. It's only when they're sufficiently self-aware to realise their positions contradict each other that they start to schism (is that a verb?), and the lack of critical thinking shown by most truthers seems to mean they can adopt two contradictory positions with ease - take, for example, the relative lack of conflict between explosive and thermite believers.

Jim Hoffman has always been pro-plane. I've mentioned it many times before (sorry if I'm getting boring) but his Scenario 404, in suggesting that a secret missile launcher under the Pentagon lawn fired a missile at flight 77 that blew its tail off just before impact for no other reason than to make the impact look less like a 757, thus fooling conspiracy theorists into thinking there wasn't a plane involved so that they could be discredited further down the line, is one of the most spectacular pieces of paranoid doublethink I've ever seen. No wonder he's joining the battle lines.

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Old 7th October 2015, 07:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think that's more a matter of taxonomy than schisms, up to the point where they start arguing with each other. There are plenty of varieties of truther - one that I've only recently become aware of is the Progressive Collapse Denier - Jonathan Cole is the type specimen - whose irreducible delusion is that any form of disproportionate collapse is impossible; and yet, that particular sub-group seems perfectly comfortable with the Missing Jolt hypothesis, despite the contradiction inherent between, on the one hand, any progressive collapse being impossible, and, on the other, needing to look at the fine detail of a progressive collapse to know that particular mechanism was impossible. It's only when they're sufficiently self-aware to realise their positions contradict each other that they start to schism (is that a verb?), and the lack of critical thinking shown by most truthers seems to mean they can adopt two contradictory positions with ease - take, for example, the relative lack of conflict between explosive and thermite believers.

Jim Hoffman has always been pro-plane. I've mentioned it many times before (sorry if I'm getting boring) but his Scenario 404, in suggesting that a secret missile launcher under the Pentagon lawn fired a missile at flight 77 that blew its tail off just before impact for no other reason than to make the impact look less like a 757, thus fooling conspiracy theorists into thinking there wasn't a plane involved so that they could be discredited further down the line, is one of the most spectacular pieces of paranoid doublethink I've ever seen. No wonder he's joining the battle lines.

Dave
This is why I say they are a waste of time and energy and sad and laughable... How is that for cognitive dissonance!

They think... they are intelligent but they lack critical thinking skills and and can't see contradiction when it's convenient to their science denial.

Again... why waste time with this crowd? It's like shooting fish in a barrel almost... The schism is in their thinking... it's broken.
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Old 7th October 2015, 07:46 AM   #6
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It's hard to criticize for myself as these guys are just trying to make a buck. It's just impossible in the present day literary world to support yourself. In today's world if you can score some dollars-by all means go for it. No one is going to complain about how you did it.

Too me it's a beast that feeds on it's self. If by what ever means it takes to get to the trough or have a big enough umbrella when it starts raining money then just go for it.

Like the O'Reilly dude on FOX-He buys the rights of certain media then in a lawerly magic move he ends up up with the property rights as well. Then using computer wizardly he simply changes the tome to present himself as the author.

shazzam!!! He never writes a word in books like 'Killing Lincoln' but sells 20 million copies in 60 days!!!!It's great-There is not an author in the world that would not go for this if he could-it's all about the money and all I can say is 'good for you old man'. And well 'how much did the property rights cost?

I think you view these people in the truther club as trying to pull something over on you when in reality they are just trying to pay for the soup.

I have always wondered if it an illusion or delusion that keeps sites like this trying to debate with people who could care less if they are debunked or not.
Griffin makes no bones about why he sticks with this it is to make money and as long as there are people like the ones here that waste days and years trying to debate nothing he will keep making money.

Good for him-just like O'Reilly
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Old 7th October 2015, 09:29 AM   #7
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Clocks? Okay, McKee does not spend much time on clocks, but when I see the clock stuff used by 911 truth as some anomaly, I wonder how they are able to function, drive cars, walk and talk, etc... why are 911 truth followers and "experts" competing to be the top nuts and dolts.

Have no clue how clocks can be an issue when Radar and FDR are presented; which makes the no plane claims, insanity. We have a plane crash, and because various clocks stopped at different times, the event could not happen? I could see three year olds debating time, but ...

Then super stupidity steps in with, so much stupid. McKee is not a researcher, he repeats lies.
Quote:
Chandler ignored evidence that the radar data is fraudulent, (among other things, C-130 pilot Steve O’Brien’s description of the flight path he took contradicts the radar data as does his description of the path of the plane believed to be Flight 77). Chandler prefers to take government controlled evidence as valid even when it was released years after the fact.

Pilots for 9/11 Truth have also revealed evidence that the 9/11 flights were still airborne after they are supposed to have crashed and that the plane depicted in the FDR data could not have descended rapidly enough to level out and hit the building at ground level.
O'Brien's flight path description is perfect, match Radar exactly. And when he uses Balsamo's delusions no theory BS, he is lost in woo.

McKee collects some of the most idiotic claims; must be his love of Cheney or the money; McKee is selling soap. And a fringe few are exposing their gullibility in the comment section...


What? Is this McKee?
Quote:
The first thing I read from McGowan was his series on the Apollo Moon missions called “Wagging the Moondoggie.” This amazing 14-part series is what finally convinced me that the Moon landings never took place. What struck me was not only his insight but his wit. Very dry, which is the best kind
Anti-reason...
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Old 7th October 2015, 10:52 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I think one "truther" schism is between those who sieve through the available evidence hunting for evidence confirming their conspiracy conclusions, and those who can easily tell themselves that any evidence that contradicts their conspiracy conclusions must be fake.

ETA: Maybe a better way to describe it is that the schism is between pseudo-scientists and mystics.
I think that's more a matter of taxonomy than schisms, up to the point where they start arguing with each other.
I agree with Dave - a schism is a conscious parting of ways, a split of groups or affiliation along differences of confession, dogma or loyalty.

The taxonomic groups are not organisations or bands of people with a common cause - no one confesses to confirmation bias or handwaving as a matter of principle.
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Old 7th October 2015, 11:23 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post

You will find, uncomfortably wedged between the camps, Dan Noel, who sports as leader of AE911Truth's "Presenter Team" who suggests that the best way forward is to ignore the Pentagon altogether, in order not to appear split, unconvincing and silly
That there is funny, I don't care who you are - Larry the Cable Guy


Sure, inconvenient to have a 9/11 event that sparks plane/no-plane debates, so best just ignore it and hope it goes away.
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Old 7th October 2015, 11:23 AM   #10
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Obviously the Disinformationists are had at work trying to discredit those who know the TRVTH.

But which side is it?
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Old 7th October 2015, 11:26 AM   #11
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They all agree that "the gubmint is lying about 9/11", they just part ways on everything else. Some "movement."

Is there a Truther Bible? DRG's New Pearl Harbor?
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Old 7th October 2015, 11:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
James Hufferd
October 7, 2015 at 1:23 pm
Oystein jumps disputaciously on every established or generally accepted point I cite on my blog, 911grassroots.org, and argues endlessly, using every known of argument and a few others,posing endless implausible claims as supposedly logical alternative possibilities, such as Bush didn’t immediately leave the school because he knew that a one-story school wouldn’t be vulnerable a Kamikaze airliner and it would be safer not to leave the building. Once he starts in, he’s hard to get rid of.
Gee Oystein, stop being a fuddy-duddy and acknowledge that Hufferd's speculations are as good as yours.

Hmmm, three ENORMOUS structures, positively identifiable from the air, get targeted by aircraft and he expects that the same level of identifiability is possible for a one story school in a suburban setting. Three buildings representing American power and wealth get targeted and he expects that the plan was also to attack ONE person several hundred miles from the NE seaboard location of the other targets.

In fact, if they had wanted to target Bush it would have been easier to target Air Force 1 on the tarmac at the airport. Just hijack a plane inbound to the same or a near by airport. Even if you hit the wrong 747 you still kill all on your plane and those on the other as well.

As for being targeted by other means, such as a shooter in the vicinity, then YES, he is safer inside until the Secret Service clears the area.
To truthers, Bush and SS team should have run willy nilly out of the school like their hair was on fire, right to a parked 747 in the middle of an open airfield. Kamikazee air attack aside, just put a sniper in the weeds on the edge of the airport.

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Old 7th October 2015, 11:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I agree with Dave - a schism is a conscious parting of ways, a split of groups or affiliation along differences of confession, dogma or loyalty.

The taxonomic groups are not organisations or bands of people with a common cause - no one confesses to confirmation bias or handwaving as a matter of principle.
Well, I was thinking of a "schism" along epistemological lines: something like, those who prefer to "torture the evidence into confessing" (e.g. thermite and "missing jolt" hunters) vs. those who don't seem to actually have much use for evidence-based reasoning (e.g. no-planers).
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Old 7th October 2015, 12:04 PM   #14
Oystein
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
comments


Gee Oystein, stop being a fuddy-duddy and acknowledge that Hufferd's speculations are as good as yours.
...
Oh James...
Yes, I bug him now and then.

The uszual run is when he makes (or quotes favorably) claims of fact on his blog that are untrue, or unproven an implausible. I then ask him if he is ready and able to defend the claim with evidence - and sure enough, he never presents evidence.

To his credit, he doesn't censor me, and remains largely polite, and so I don't treat him overly harsh.
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Old 7th October 2015, 01:24 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Oh James...
Yes, I bug him now and then.

The uszual run is when he makes (or quotes favorably) claims of fact on his blog that are untrue, or unproven an implausible. I then ask him if he is ready and able to defend the claim with evidence - and sure enough, he never presents evidence.

To his credit, he doesn't censor me, and remains largely polite, and so I don't treat him overly harsh.
James is totally immersed in a bubble and is incapable of seeing outside... And he doesn't want to see anything but. These guys are willy "tripping" on their own nonsense... which they think is reality... Oh Boy!
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Old 12th October 2015, 11:03 AM   #16
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"No plane at the Pentagon" is alive in Denmark, on Facebook at least. I saw someone call "nearly as suspicious as the moon landing" .
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Old 12th October 2015, 11:48 AM   #17
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Schisms in the 9/11 CT world happen when "eat a worm" to enter the little boys' treehouse club leads to too many entrants. Then it becomes "eat a live frog", and so on...
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Old 12th October 2015, 12:08 PM   #18
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Or, it could mirror preferences for movie plots. Some might think that secret government scientists designing a silent explosive called thermyth is too cerebral and geeky, and just prefer the action sequences of fake airplane crashes.
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Old 13th October 2015, 06:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by AsbjornAndersen View Post
"No plane at the Pentagon" is alive in Denmark, on Facebook at least. I saw someone call "nearly as suspicious as the moon landing" .
Hmmm, I would agree. The suicide crash into the Pentagon is indeed as suspicious as the Moon landing. The level of suspicion for both is about even at zero.
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Old 14th October 2015, 11:38 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Hmmm, I would agree. The suicide crash into the Pentagon is indeed as suspicious as the Moon landing. The level of suspicion for both is about even at zero.
Well put
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Old 20th October 2015, 04:14 PM   #21
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Craig has published a follow-up article.

Jenkins edited the Pentagon portion of New Pearl Harbour out of his locally made DVDs and even sold them, without the filmmaker's permission.

https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...n-plane-impact
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Old 20th October 2015, 04:33 PM   #22
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I like the article's quote from Mazzucco:

He addresses the "scientific papers" by Chandler and Legge.

Quote:
Mazzucco, in researching his film, says he examined all the “scholarly papers” by the group very carefully but did not find anything persuasive in them.

“I discarded immediately the*Legge/Chandler paperbecause of course the first thing I did was go and check the sources they used for that list of witnesses, and when I got down to 20 and I couldn’t find anyone I said something is wrong with this. That’s why I call it junk. And I don’t use the word “junk” very easily. In terms of a researcher, unsupported and undocumented witnesses are junk. And Craig Ranke (of CIT, which made the filmNational Security Alert) has done the opposite: he’s put name and last name of people and what they say. It’s on the spot, and it’s on camera.”
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Old 20th October 2015, 06:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
He addresses the "scientific papers" by Chandler and Legge.
It takes great ignorance to believe or use CIT, even more ignorance to deny 77 impacted the Pentagon. Have you figured out NORAD yet?

Ironically 911 truth liars are calling other 911 truth liars, liars; 911 truth, the movement of lies, and gullibility.

Poor 911 truth, no progress in 14 years. Their only product spreading lies and idiotic claims based on delusions. Not surprised 911 truth "activists" fight about their crazy claims.

It is kind of silly to talk about witnesses when the FDR, Radar, and DNA prove it was 77.

Quote:
Among the most solid research done on the Pentagon is that done by CIT and Pilots for 9/11 Truth. Nothing diverging, nothing contradictory. https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...-plane-impact/
Using CIT and pft as solid research, a sign someone is not firing on all four.

Mazzucco uses BS to form nonsense.
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Old 21st October 2015, 02:55 AM   #24
Oystein
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It's a false dilemma to think that
  • either CIT and posse are right and scientifically sound while the Chandler/Legge posse are wrong and frauds
  • or the Chandler/Legge posse are right and scientifically sound while the CIT posse are wrong and frauds

There is also at least the third possibility that both CIT and Chandler/Legge are frauds.
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Old 21st October 2015, 06:45 AM   #25
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A truther's take on the history of the schisms:
https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...#comment-35944
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Old 21st October 2015, 08:35 AM   #26
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A whole pile of stupid...
https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...#comment-35944

Further down in the comments...
Quote:
I don’t think so. General Stubblebine wasn’t chief of Army intelligence because he’s stupid. That’s all I have to say on the matter.
General "I Can Walk Thru Walls" Stubblebine looks at photo and proclaims, not an airplane.

Not news 911 truth nuts have problems with other 911 truth nuts.

Now I have to figure out who the no plane nuts are, and who the it was plane nuts are.


Quote:
Hoffman had done some of the great early work in destroying the NIST reports, thus becoming a target for a deep cover mission of disinformation.
... this was cute.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/t..._scenario.html
The paranoia of "deep cover mission of disinformation", has to be extra credit delusional bliss for 911 truth dolts...
With no clue the entire 911 truth movement is delusional disinformation, the dolts argue about who is the deep cover plant.
As for Hoffman, his work belongs in a special branch of 911 truth delusional claims.
Quote:
With 1.8 million ceiling tiles destroying the WTC...


The best part of the summary by a 911 truth with delusions of an inside job, and thermite...
Quote:
Jones fakes the thermite conclusion in a vanity journal with his "genuine scientists"...
A person who believe in the fantasy of thermite calls the other side of the house "loonies". And he is a no plane nut too?
Is Jones a no plane nut, or a thermite nut? Two nuts in one.
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Old 21st October 2015, 09:48 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
A whole pile of stupid...
You said it!

Quote:

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Old 21st October 2015, 01:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
A truther's take on the history of the schisms:
https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...#comment-35944
When I first saw the link,I thought "they are going to blame evil government disinfo for the Truth Movement splintering". I was right.

Real reason,of course, in the huge egos of the Truther "Leaders". They are just like a bunch of kids arguing over who is going to be the Boss of the Treehouse this week.
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Old 21st October 2015, 01:56 PM   #29
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It is truly amazing what excellent debunking some of the Truthers can do when it comes to aspects of the conspiracy theory with which they disagree. Hoffman's demolishing of the no plane at the Pentagon theories was really quite well done and thorough.

And then he comes up with the ceiling tile thermite idea.
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Old 21st October 2015, 02:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It is truly amazing what excellent debunking some of the Truthers can do when it comes to aspects of the conspiracy theory with which they disagree. Hoffman's demolishing of the no plane at the Pentagon theories was really quite well done and thorough.

And then he comes up with the ceiling tile thermite idea.
Fetzer was spot-on debunking nano-thermite, and the interview Greg Jenkins did with Judy Wood still remains one of the most briliant pieces of debunking ever.
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Old 21st October 2015, 02:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
So, without recalling exact dates for any of this, we come to the point where Jones and Fetzer have a blowup and Jones splits off and begins Journal of 9/11 Studies. Most of the genuine scientists join him in the split. Fetzer is left with “the loonies” as I would put it. He goes on to promote the “Dew” idea, then the “No-Planes” concept, the “Video Fakery” concept, the “Hologram Planes” idea, and then the “Nukes at WTC” concept. In my opinion, all being pseudoscience drivel, and willful disinformation.
That's the split I was talking about, but this guy gets it wrong: Jones&Co are the pseudoscientists, whereas Fetzer and the loonies are anti-science, believing their own imagination mystically divines the truth.
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Old 21st March 2016, 11:15 AM   #32
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The feud has entered a new round on Craig McKee's blog:
"Pentagon debates expose emptiness of large-plane-impact scenario"
Witness, in the comments, Dwain Deets and Wayne Coste, fight against McKee and friends.

Coste recently (January 27th) held a debate at McKee's and Ken Freeland's monthly "9/11 Truth Teleconference", arguing in favor of a large plane crashing into the Pentagon - the participants subsequently voted him down by a large margin. (Coste's presentation slides are here. )

Adam Taylor weighs in on his blog and calls McKee a Liar for 9/11 Truth.

And then we have this comment by Domenick DiMaggio (a Truther specializing, it seems, on Shanksville woo):
Originally Posted by Domenick DiMaggio
I read the comments and I remember why I dropped out of the truth movement. Do you guys know Randi’s Kids devised a plan to gain entrance into this movement and tear it apart from the inside right?

So today you have “established credible” 9/11 truthers who do nothing all day but try to discredit the work of other 9/11 truthers.

For example, I, Domenick DiMaggio being a 9/11 truther, do not believe thermite has been proven to have been used at the WTC. I do not however attack those who discuss it, I promote my Shanksville work.

...
Don't I love it! So we JREF/ISF debunkers are credited with successfully engineering these schisms, including the betrayal by Chandler et al

And there seems a new schism in the making - or a new rift opening between the churches: It seems, some folks in the "Church of Pentagon No Plane" are beginning to see through the thermite dogmas that are so holy to most mainstream truthers!
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Old 21st March 2016, 03:08 PM   #33
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I followed your link and read the comments and the presentation of McKee. It's hard to take these people seriously. It's sort of interesting to see how they think they have evidence and have reached conclusions... a bunch of amateur sleuths with no technical training with such strong conviction of their "beliefs". A vote has determined that there are fakes in their midst! And it's all about the no plane could possibly have hit the pentagon... it's all staged! (and not a soul saw a thing!)

These are no unintelligent people. But they are blinded by some sort of political ideological view of the world and what doesn't fit was simply staged to make it LOOK real.

I was called an infiltrator.... hahahahaha

Not too many take these people seriously... THAT is the real truth.

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Old 21st March 2016, 03:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
... These are ...
Insane people, aka idiots...

lol, okay, they could be super BS artists who don't give a flying #$%#$ if they lie about the murder of thousands.
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Old 21st March 2016, 03:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The feud has entered a new round on Craig McKee's blog:
"Pentagon debates expose emptiness of large-plane-impact scenario"
Witness, in the comments, Dwain Deets and Wayne Coste, fight against McKee and friends.

Coste recently (January 27th) held a debate at McKee's and Ken Freeland's monthly "9/11 Truth Teleconference", arguing in favor of a large plane crashing into the Pentagon - the participants subsequently voted him down by a large margin. (Coste's presentation slides are here. )

Adam Taylor weighs in on his blog and calls McKee a Liar for 9/11 Truth.

And then we have this comment by Domenick DiMaggio (a Truther specializing, it seems, on Shanksville woo):


Don't I love it! So we JREF/ISF debunkers are credited with successfully engineering these schisms, including the betrayal by Chandler et al

And there seems a new schism in the making - or a new rift opening between the churches: It seems, some folks in the "Church of Pentagon No Plane" are beginning to see through the thermite dogmas that are so holy to most mainstream truthers!
You don't know Dom? He was pals with Shaky Craig and Aldo the Buffet Slayer in CIT for awhile.

Bit of a douchebag if I recall correctly.
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Old 21st March 2016, 07:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
You don't know Dom? He was pals with Shaky Craig and Aldo the Buffet Slayer in CIT for awhile.

Bit of a douchebag if I recall correctly.
Yep, I remember an article where he went to Shanksville and annoyed the hell out of everyone looking for a shoot-down witness or someone who would say there was no plane in that crater -- he didn't care which, just so it wasn't the "official story." A LOT of Shanksville residents helped clean up that mess, so needless to say, it did not go well. Didn't phase him, though. He claimed their overreaction to his douchebaggery was suspicious.

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Old 21st March 2016, 10:29 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
You don't know Dom? He was pals with Shaky Craig and Aldo the Buffet Slayer in CIT for awhile.

Bit of a douchebag if I recall correctly.
That was all before my time
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Old 23rd March 2016, 02:09 AM   #38
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The schisms continue:

"Announcements

Dave Slesinger asked if anyone would be willing to work with him in approaching Professor Zdeněk Bažant of Northwestern University who has written papers supportive of the 9/11 official story. Wayne Coste said he is trying to get the American Society of Civil Engineers to retract four papers that are not scientifically valid, and he would also like help with this."

Honegger is running in CA on a 9/11 truth ticket

You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts...

And this is one of the problems... they can't see, to distinguish fact from fantasy... junk science from real science... confirmation bias from the scientific method.

This is not a failure of imagination... this is a case of being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.
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Old 23rd March 2016, 06:02 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
The schisms continue:

Honegger is running in CA on a 9/11 truth ticket
Nothing about the "9/11 Truth ticket" in this news bit. I used to go to the Naval Postgraduate School for a conference every summer up until the Navy shut down all travel for us minions a few years ago. I wonder if Honegger was there. Woulda been fun seeing her - like seeing the two-headed snake in the carnival freak show.

http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/...4f285b52d.html
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Old 23rd March 2016, 06:15 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
"Announcements

Dave Slesinger asked if anyone would be willing to work with him in approaching Professor Zdeněk Bažant of Northwestern University who has written papers supportive of the 9/11 official story. Wayne Coste said he is trying to get the American Society of Civil Engineers to retract four papers that are not scientifically valid, and he would also like help with this."
Source, please?
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