ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th April 2017, 11:00 AM   #1
MrFliop
Scholar
 
MrFliop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 101
The unending claim of "secondary explosions"

This is probably THE SINGLE GREATEST EXAMPLE of 9/11 truthers taking things out of context. And when they're not taking quotes out of context, they're just showing video of random explosions going off in the debris pile AFTER the buildings had collapsed (from damaged gas lines, gas tanks, etc), and making it seem like those explosions were bombs inside the towers which was part of a demolition and often times it's not necessarily taking quotes out of context, just leaving the FACTS out of context. Many witnesses talk about secondary explosions, referring to ones AFTER the towers were down. Well, right away you should be telling yourself that if random explosions are going off AFTER the buildings had collapsed, then obviously it's something OTHER THAN a controlled demolition taking place. I mean... duh. What these secondary explosions were caused by was gas lines, deisel tanks, stored chemicals, oxygen tanks, police officers firing their pistols to gain access to locked buildings, electrical explosions, etc. etc. etc. Also, stuff was exploding inside the building as well, like transformers and chemicals and elevators plummeting and bodies hitting the ground, etc.

There is also a video of Rick Sanchez talking about police officers being wary of a suspicious device near the intersection of W. Broadway, Hudson, and Chambers (which is 5 blocks north of the northern edge of the WTC site... 4 if you include WTC7). There were many false alarms and fears of suspicious devices being bombs, which turned out to be nothing. There was one at Stuyvescant High School, just a few blocks away.

Next, it shows Sanchez talking about how firefighters have reason to suspect that maybe one of the explosions at the WTC was caused by a bomb. He even stresses MAY have been. To truthers, "may have been" means "definitely was". There was a lot of confusion in the immediate aftermath. A lot of firefighters who were at the scene until the sun went down, never knew that either tower collapsed!!!! As unbelievable as that might sound. A lot never knew a second plane hit.

It's also interesting that on the afternoon of 9/11, Rodriguez was on CNN saying that the explosion in the basement happened AFTER the plane hit and was caused by jet fuel shooting down the elevator shafts, then told the exact same story to the 9/11 Commission, and only completely changed his story in 2005, when he started making a living off of his story (through presentations and DVD sales).

But truthers also claim that elevators did not go from top to bottom. However the blueprints of the tower settle this once and for all. The local elevator shafts did not extend top to bottom, but many others did. Cars 6 and 7 went top to bottom (in both towers), plus there were several freight elevators that went top to bottom. Also, Flight 175 struck the South Tower just low enough (the Sky Lobby) that much of the fuel was able to dump into the express elevator shafts, which DID go all the way to the lobby. So... it just depends on the particular shaft. Some did go top to bottom, some didn't.

They’re also wrong about it not being possible for the jet fuel to reach all the way down to the lobby and basement. A huge section of the NIST report titled "Jet Fuel Dispersion" calculated how much jet fuel was burned up in the initial explosion as soon as the plane hit (only about 30%), and calculated where and how much of the jet fuel was dispersed elsewhere. There was plenty remaining to send fireballs down certain elevator shafts. The following quotes are arguments I’ve heard made by truthers which I will address.

Quote:
"""1) Most of the fuel burned off at impact, which nist already admits to.""""
Wrong, this is another popular straw-man argument made by people who haven't even read the official report, right there with people who think NIST claims the fires melted the steel. NIST calculated, based on the amount of oxygen available, that only 30% of the jet fuel burned off in the initial explosions.

Quote:
"""2) Fuel is already burning, it was not concentrated and unburned and then ignited in the lobby. burning fuel should have been burned up by the time it even got there."""""
This is them basically keep saying that it doesn't seem to you like there was enough jet fuel to create a fireball that would reach all the way down to the lobby. Give me CALCULATIONS, not assumptions. NIST does.

Quote:
"""3) None of the floors between the impact zone and the lobby were "exploded" due to this fuel."""
Again, wrong, there were about 17 floors in between, on which fireballs exploded into the floors.

The documentary is called "9/11" by Jules and Gideon Naudet. They were embedded with the Engine 7 firehouse. They were responding to a gas leak when a plane flies overhead and crashes into the North Tower (this is the only video - basically - which captured the first crash), they hop in the firetruck and set up a command post in the lobby of the tower about 2 mins later. A little over an hour later, the South Tower collapses and the North Tower lobby is heavily damaged. Chief Pfeifer orders the evacuation of the North Tower. Outside, they have no idea that the South Tower has collapsed. They walk north and the North Tower collapses. To anyone who watches the documentary, it's obvious that the event which caused the "collapse" of the lobby in the North Tower was the South Tower collapsing, not an explosion (even though a lot of firefighters initially assumed that. They were indoors, so they could not see the South Tower collapse).

Neither one of us has to speculate about this at all. There exists a video tape showing EXACTLY what happened at the staging area inside the North Tower lobby. Nowhere in the video tape does the lobby just spotaneously collapse on them, EXCEPT when the South Tower collapses. This did indeed cause massive damage inside the North Tower lobby (Father Mychael Judge, the Chaplain of the FDNY, was standing right there in the staging area and was killed when this occured). It also covered everyone in dust, and you can see from the video that the men are covered in dust. It also seems obvious that when he says "the whole building just collapsed on us inside the lobby", that he meant he was inside the NT lobby when the ST fell, since he would have been killed if he was in the ST lobby at that point.

In that video, it's hard to know which lobby (which tower) they're talking about, but because he says he was at the staging area, it seems to me that he was talking about the North Tower. The only video tape footage from inside either tower was shot by Jules Naudet, who was at the staging area in the North Tower. The only significant event which could be interpreted as the lobby collapsing, is when the South Tower collapses and dust and debris shoots into the North Tower lobby. Most people in the North Tower lobby thought it was a secondary explosion. Almost no one knew the South Tower collapsed. Even when Jules and Chief Pfeifer walk outside, they still think the South Tower is just behind the other building and they aren't sure what it was that caused such devastation in the lobby. This is probably what the firefighters in the video are referring to. At no other point in the Naudet video does the lobby "collapse".

In sum, they were probably either talking about 1.) seeing the aftermath of the explosions from the jet fuel shooting down the elevator shafts when the planes hit, 2.) were talking about hearing noises which sounded like explosions and bombs going off while they were in the lobby which they later found out were bodies hitting the ground outside, (contd)

or 3.) they were talking about what happened in the North Tower lobby when the South Tower collapsed. Also, you should know that almost every second of the events in the North Tower lobby were captured on video by Jules Naudet, who was WITH the firefighters AT the command post, and nowhere in the video is there any explosion that gets their attention (EXCEPT when bodies hit the ground and EXCEPT when the South Tower collapses).

Case Closed

PS, if you are going to argue that a bomb went off in the lobby and caused the lobby to collapse... despite the video camera IN the lobby (and the countless others that were right outside) not detecting such an explosion, WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE??? The collapse in both buildings started near the top. It didn't start at the lobby.
MrFliop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2017, 12:45 PM   #2
Mark F
Graduate Poster
 
Mark F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,110
Actually, my favorite are the claims of "we can see/hear "squibs" going off.

Squibs are supposed to be little explosions used to initiate much bigger explosions. So we can we only see/hear the "squibs"?
__________________
So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts.
Mark F is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.