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Old 1st May 2007, 12:32 AM   #121
MRC_Hans
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Yawn. Well somebody's gotta do it:

Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins View Post
damage control from Woo Central!

Comment: Debunkers are already using this to attack the 9/11 truth movement in claiming that this explains the collapse of the towers and WTC 7. Syndicated radio host Neil Boortz attacked Alex Jones this morning, claiming that this refutes the controlled demolition hypothesis. In reality, the freeway collapse is completely different and the comparison is ridiculous.
I can already hear defenders of the official account screaming "See, fire can cause a steel structure to collapse-the bridge collapsed!"
And that is what it shows. CT ers have been saying: "No steel structure has ever collapsed ue to fire", conviniently ignoring the many examples where they have. Well fellows, here is another example. Deal with it.

Quote:
Comparing the circumstances surrounding the fire and subsequent partial collapse of this bridge to the circumstances surrounding the fires and subsequent complete collapse of the towers and WTC 7 is flawed from end to end.
There are a number of differences, yes. We are not the ones making generalized statements, however.

Quote:
This fact should be obvious to most people; but let's point out a few things just in case they weren't already noticed.
1. This was an open air environment where flames were able to reach their absolute maximum temperature; white-hot and shooting upwards of 200 feet in the air.
Wrong. An open air environment is not the environment where you get the highest temperatures, exactly because it is open; heat is lost to the surroundings at a tremendous rate, and the in-rushing air cools the fire.

Quote:
Quote:
2. Those 200 foot flames were acting on a single support truss that was fastened to the two columns pictured here.
Wrong. That truss was not 200 ft in the air. The 200ft flames (probably a reporter exaggeration, btw, none of the pictures show flames of that size) indicate heat lost from the centre of the fire, where the truss was.

Quote:
That truss (and the connectors that fastened it to the columns) represents a small fraction of the steel that would have been found on a single floor of the towers or WTC 7.
That truss was dimensioned to carry a much higher load than any steel member of the WTC.

Quote:
So again, far more heat focused on a single truss and no way to redistribute the load once that truss was weakened.
The redistribution notion is nonsense. Steel is a fairly poor heat conductor, as metals go. So poor that a steel bar can be white hot in one end and cool enough to touch in the other.

Quote:
3. You'll notice that despite the intense fires ability to weaken the truss and connectors that there is NO mention of molten metal in the debris.
Because, unlike the WTC, once the fuel fire burned out, there was no combustible material left.

Quote:
Also, unlike the debris of the towers and WTC 7, it's not likely we're going to hear anything about thermate (specifically used to destroy steel columns) in the bridge debris.
We also did not hear of any thermate in the WTC debris. I know CTers try to claim various sulphur traces and slag is thermate residue, but to bring down the WTC buildings, tons of thermate would have been needed. Thermate works on a more or less pound to pound basis, that is, to melt a pound of steel, you need a pound of thermate, so if the WTC buildings were brought down by thermate, there would have to be hundreds of tons of it.

Quote:
4. You'll notice that the concrete roadway that "pancaked down" on the roadway below did not cause the lower freeway to collapse. Nor has the concrete disintegrated into a fine powder.
There IS a difference between the behaviour of a two-storey structure and a 110 (or 47) storey structure. Do I need to explain the differences?

Quote:
5. You'll notice the columns were not torn down by the collapse, nor did they evaporate into thin air, rather they are still standing (having only lost the the truss and connectors that held the roadway to them.)
And. What, in the WTC, evaporated into thin air (documentation required)?

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Old 1st May 2007, 12:34 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Go to the link in Brainster's post then sit in the corner wearing a dunce cap for 30 minutes
Done and done, did some penance lashes too. Hope that will suffice.

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ETA - Some people miss everything...
Actually I overlooked that there was a link in Brainster's post. I must be more tired than I thought.
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Old 1st May 2007, 06:15 AM   #123
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Galvanized bolts may be used on bridges but they are NOT recommended for high temperature applications (See ASTM A325 or A490 Bolt Specification) because of possible zinc embrittlement.

By the way, did NIST do any surface/XRF/Auger analysis of WTC bolts, floor pans, floor concrete?
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Old 1st May 2007, 06:37 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Galvanized bolts may be used on bridges but they are NOT recommended for high temperature applications (See ASTM A325 or A490 Bolt Specification) because of possible zinc embrittlement.

By the way, did NIST do any surface/XRF/Auger analysis of WTC bolts, floor pans, floor concrete?
Ok, I consulted with my brother, who has done bridge design for a company in texas for 20-some years. He's only an Civil engineer, not a chemist, but he does specifications.
Galvanized steel is generally not used in bridge construction. There are many reasons, but one must also consider that galvanization is a surface condition, and it can crack, leading to hidden corrosion, and that is a bad thing.
I would like to hear/see Crazy Chainsaw's galvanized steel test set-up, and I would also like to know more about the timing, distribution and quantity of the steel-zinc spheroids around WTC.
Nowhere have I doubted that the reactions described in total lack of detail do not occur. My question is in the time factor. We know that steel heated loses strength rapidly. Dr. G's apparent contention is that the chemical effects are great enough to be a major contributer. I see in the list of folks involved with the NIST report several fire safety experts.
Has anyone contacted them (Yes, I'm looking at you, Apollo20) to see if those things were considered?
As far as hydrogen release and burning go, I am still not convinced that the additional heat gained from the hydrogen is greater that that required to actually liberate the hydrogen. I need more on this.
So far, nothing anyone has said, without any evidence, or even theoretical equations, to back it up, has done anything to convince me that chemical reactions were of any great importance in any of the collapses under discussion.
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Old 1st May 2007, 08:39 AM   #125
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The chemical energy released by the reactions of iron and zinc with HCl and O2 on the fire-affected floors of WTC 1 & 2 was about ten times LARGER than the potential energy released by the first one story drop of the upper section of WTC 1. So the CHEMICAL energies liberated in the WTC collapse were far larger than the gravitational energies.

And no one has answered my question about NIST's analysis of bolts and concrete, yet I have been assured NIST found no evidence for embrittlement.

And we haven't even talked about embrittlement of the welds.

And finally, I HAVE contacted NIST and been completely ignored!

Other scientists have, however, been most helpful including Profs Bazant, Cahill, and Barnett, etc, etc...
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Old 1st May 2007, 08:43 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Ok, I consulted with my brother, who has done bridge design for a company in texas for 20-some years. He's only an Civil engineer, not a chemist, but he does specifications.
Galvanized steel is generally not used in bridge construction. There are many reasons, but one must also consider that galvanization is a surface condition, and it can crack, leading to hidden corrosion, and that is a bad thing.
I would like to hear/see Crazy Chainsaw's galvanized steel test set-up, and I would also like to know more about the timing, distribution and quantity of the steel-zinc spheroids around WTC.
Nowhere have I doubted that the reactions described in total lack of detail do not occur. My question is in the time factor. We know that steel heated loses strength rapidly. Dr. G's apparent contention is that the chemical effects are great enough to be a major contributer. I see in the list of folks involved with the NIST report several fire safety experts.
Has anyone contacted them (Yes, I'm looking at you, Apollo20) to see if those things were considered?
As far as hydrogen release and burning go, I am still not convinced that the additional heat gained from the hydrogen is greater that that required to actually liberate the hydrogen. I need more on this.
So far, nothing anyone has said, without any evidence, or even theoretical equations, to back it up, has done anything to convince me that chemical reactions were of any great importance in any of the collapses under discussion.
The metal is the energy source, as is the Oxygen in the air the Hydrogen is just the way to get the energy out of the metal. Eventually the metal reacts on its own with steam to produce hydrogen and heat. If the metal get hot enough it can also burn spontaneously like in a chimney effect.
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Old 1st May 2007, 08:50 AM   #127
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WAKE UP TEH SHEEPLE!!!!!!!1111
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Old 1st May 2007, 08:52 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
The chemical energy released by the reactions of iron and zinc with HCl and O2 on the fire-affected floors of WTC 1 & 2 was about ten times LARGER than the potential energy released by the first one story drop of the upper section of WTC 1. So the CHEMICAL energies liberated in the WTC collapse were far larger than the gravitational energies.
You and Crazy Chainsaw keep asserting this, but when asked about volumes and concentrations,as well as origins of the HCl, there is silence.
How much HCl gas do you figure was generated, and why, with a great roaring fire down below, did it stick around with all those broken windows to exit from?

Secondly, with the sulfur noted in the piles, why would not the sulfur burn, and the combustion products mix with all that water, forming sulfuric acid, which has a much stronger effect on carbon steel than HCl does?
Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
And no one has answered my question about NIST's analysis of bolts and concrete, yet I have been assured NIST found no evidence for embrittlement.
NIST also did not mention the lack of evidence of laser cutting, thermonuclear devices, pink pixies, or invading aliens from somewhere in Orion.
The facts are what they are. You state what is there, not what is not.

Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
And we haven't even talked about embrittlement of the welds.

And finally, I HAVE contacted NIST and been completely ignored!

Other scientists have, however, been most helpful including Profs Bazant, Cahill, and Barnett, etc, etc...
Ok, how about some links to what they say about all you are postulating. It would be most helpful.
ETA: And in re: your first paragraph: How does the chemical energy get turned into kinetic energy in the open system that is the towers? AFAICT, it would simply be imbedded in the heat exiting the building--the heat that already exists from the chemical reaction of oxygenand existing and imported hydrocarbons
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Old 1st May 2007, 09:07 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
You and Crazy Chainsaw keep asserting this, but when asked about volumes and concentrations,as well as origins of the HCl, there is silence.
How much HCl gas do you figure was generated, and why, with a great roaring fire down below, did it stick around with all those broken windows to exit from?

That would depend on how many computer, how much carpeting, How many PVC pipes and Vinyl Chloride plastics were used in the buildings, probably a lot.


Secondly, with the sulfur noted in the piles, why would not the sulfur burn, and the combustion products mix with all that water, forming sulfuric acid, which has a much stronger effect on carbon steel than HCl does?

There are lead acid batteries in the buildings as well as a lot of sulfur from other sources including the fuels that have been stored for decades we are looking at both types of acids but once the sulfur combines with Calcium it become calcium sulfate, gypsum.
However HCl becomes Calcium Chloride that reacts with Zinc to form Zinc Chloride.

One of the reason not to use galvanized bolts on bridges is because calcium salts cause Zinc desegregation and possible hydrogen embrittlement in micro fractures, if Zinc invades the micro fractures under the oxide layer then Zinc embrittlement occurs in the bolts.

NIST also did not mention the lack of evidence of laser cutting, thermonuclear devices, pink pixies, or invading aliens from somewhere in Orion.
The facts are what they are. You state what is there, not what is not.
That was just stupid chemical reactions are likely, and what you just mentioned is fantasy not reality please come back to it.

Ok, how about some links to what they say about all you are postulating. It would be most helpful.
I will see if I can find some for you a little later today.
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Old 1st May 2007, 09:14 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I will see if I can find some for you a little later today.
RWguinn throws up his hands, walking away muttering to himself...
"why can't they answer the question asked?"
ETA:
And why is Crazy Chanisaw answering for Apollo20? They are beginning to even sound alike...
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Old 1st May 2007, 09:36 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
And finally, I HAVE contacted NIST and been completely ignored!
Why? What did NIST say to dismiss your ideas?
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:08 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Why? What did NIST say to dismiss your ideas?
Sigh,
~enigma~, I'm sorry, but that is too good a "Stundie" material to let pass. No hard feelings, 'ol buddie, 'ol pal?
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:18 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Sigh,
~enigma~, I'm sorry, but that is too good a "Stundie" material to let pass. No hard feelings, 'ol buddie, 'ol pal?
That is fine but it is a question that I would like to hear Apollo answer. You see to me it appears that he has no idea what a trawman is nor do I think he understands that silence does not necessarily mean disagreement.
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:26 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
That is fine but it is a question that I would like to hear Apollo answer. You see to me it appears that he has no idea what a trawman is nor do I think he understands that silence does not necessarily mean disagreement.
Oh, I agree with you--I would like to know how he contacted them, and his wording. In this actual case, does ignore mean that he got nothing in return (truly ignored) or a response that his ideas were being taken into consideration, or that his ideas had no merit, or that they had ben previously considered and found to have no significance... Just what dos ignored mean, here? I have a sneaking suspicion that anything other than O my Gawd! How could we have missed that!" will/would be less than acceptable in this case.
But, on the other hand,
I know that when I get a letter or email that begins with words tot the effect "You Idiot, you haven't a clue...", unless it is from my boss, I tend to ignore it.
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:30 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Oh, I agree with you--I would like to know how he contacted them, and his wording. In this actual case, does ignore mean that he got nothing in return (truly ignored) or a response that his ideas were being taken into consideration, or that his ideas had no merit, or that they had ben previously considered and found to have no significance... Just what dos ignored mean, here? I have a sneaking suspicion that anything other than O my Gawd! How could we have missed that!" will/would be less than acceptable in this case.
But, on the other hand,
I know that when I get a letter or email that begins with words tot the effect "You Idiot, you haven't a clue...", unless it is from my boss, I tend to ignore it.
My boss once said that to me but he didn't expect the backlash...HR promoted me to manager and demoted him to assistant manager. Needless to say he resigned about a week later....
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Old 1st May 2007, 11:59 AM   #136
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Do you guys not understand what the word "ignored" means?

It means I received NO answer to a 16 page report that was received with great interest by Profs Cahill, Bazant and Barnett..... In fact two of these gentlemen phoned me to discuss my work!

As for links, I can only give you references to peer-reviewed papers in journals of science, engineering, physics, and chemistry.

But I guess you googlescientists are too lazy to go look them up!

Mod Warning
Apollo20, keep things civil; don't personalize the discussion by adding insults. I'll leave the first and fourth sentences intact this time for your benefit, but keep this kind of commentary out of your responses, please.
Posted By:jmercer

Last edited by jmercer; 2nd May 2007 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:09 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Do you guys not understand what the word "ignored" means?
What was this immature attack for? I must say that I am not surprised if anybody chooses to ignore you when it is clear to me and others that you have a really bad attitude.
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:19 PM   #138
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I think rwquinn doesn't want to do your work for you in proving your theory.

Anyway, I'm not sure I follow. Wouldn't NIST have mentioned something like chemical reactions on that scale if it had found evidence of them?
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:24 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Tokorona View Post
I think rwquinn doesn't want to do your work for you in proving your theory.

Anyway, I'm not sure I follow. Wouldn't NIST have mentioned something like chemical reactions on that scale if it had found evidence of them?
Why would they look for evidence of a chemical reaction? You do realize that in the case of the wtc that would be akin to searching for evidence that gravity makes things fall...IOW a total waste of time and resources not to mention that it wasn't a stated goal of the report Apollo's slanderously calls nothing more than a feel-good attempt to explain building codes.
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:25 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
But I guess you googlescientists are too lazy to go look them up!
Gee, with snips like this I wonder why they haven't bother to get back to you?

Again you persist with insults when you have so far shown little of your actual work. I don't deny that you've done it, but you are still playing coy little games with it.

So again I say: GROW UP!
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Do you guys not understand what the word "ignored" means?

It means I received NO answer to a 16 page report that was received with great interest by Profs Cahill, Bazant and Barnett..... In fact two of these gentlemen phoned me to discuss my work!

As for links, I can only give you references to peer-reviewed papers in journals of science, engineering, physics, and chemistry.

But I guess you googlescientists are too lazy to go look them up!
If we knew what your thesis was, and if we knew who "Profs Cahill, Bazant and Barnett" were, who they work for, and the papers they and you have published on this very phenomenon, in which journals--even a title--you know "Zinc Embrittlement of WTC1 and WTC2 Primary Structural Members During the 9/11/01 Disaster" would help.
It is amazing that no such papers have been published in anything I have found, in the last 3 years. searches:
Prof cahill yields this
prof bazant yields this, with a specific reference by a CT'er to bazant's championing of the Pancake theory
and Barnett +911+Chemistry+publications yields

so, which ones? IF you weren't so damn cryptic, we might get somewhere. As it is, with your curious refusal or inability to express just what you are getting at, I for one will have to treat you as a troll.
Either say what you mean, or quit bellyakin!
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:37 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Why would they look for evidence of a chemical reaction? You do realize that in the case of the wtc that would be akin to searching for evidence that gravity makes things fall...IOW a total waste of time and resources not to mention that it wasn't a stated goal of the report Apollo's slanderously calls nothing more than a feel-good attempt to explain building codes.

Fire is a chemical reaction ~enigma~ Oxidation, I thought that and the collapse was what was being investigated!
Sorry I must have been wrong.
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:41 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Fire is a chemical reaction ~enigma~ Oxidation, I thought that and the collapse was what was being investigated!
Sorry I must have been wrong.
We are not talking about fire and you clearly know that. Now go back to your defense of an irritable old man
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:41 PM   #144
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Enigma: Let me clarify. unusual chemical reactions, ones that were not expected. Does that help any?
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:44 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Tokorona View Post
Enigma: Let me clarify. unusual chemical reactions, ones that were not expected. Does that help any?
I understand that. What were the stated goals of the NIST report? Maybe answering that will help you understand why they were not interested in exotic or unusual reactions.
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Old 1st May 2007, 01:05 PM   #146
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Analytical data derived from air monitoring at, or near, Ground Zero in the period September 2001 to May 2002 show that hydrogen chloride and many chlorinated organic species were present at significant levels up to December 2001. These included aliphatic species such as chloroform, chloroethane and di-chloroethane as well as the aromatic compounds chlorobenzene and di-chlorobenzene.

Apart from HCl, which is indeed a major product of the thermal degradation of PVC, the major decomposition products from heating PVC in the temperature range 300 500 C are: benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, chlorobenzene, di-chlorobenzene and tri-chlorobenzene. All of these species were observed in the air at Ground Zero. Furthermore, the relative abundances of the PVC-derived compounds are consistent with literature data on the thermal decomposition of PVC.

The total amount of PVC in the Twin Towers may be estimated to be at least 3 tonnes per floor. PVC releases 57 % of its weight as HCl when heated above about 350 deg C, (with or without the presence of air). The associated energy release is 38 MJ/kg. HCl attacks zinc, copper and iron forming LOW MELTING POINT chlorides. Ferric chloride BOILS at 319 deg C......

On the topic of NIST's contribution to this question: It is interesting to note that the surface analytical data presented by S. W. Banovic in NIST NCSTAR 1-3C show that for the single column sample K-16, chlorine was the most abundant species (after iron of course!), and was generally HIGHER than the much debated sulfur. And if you look at the USGS Particle Atlas Table of XRF analyses for concrete particulate in WTC dust more than 50 % showed the presence of chlorine. This chlorine cannot be indigenous to the concrete since chloride ion is specified to be less than 200 ppm in concrete because of its deleterious effects on this material.

This is why I have asked about NIST's analyses of WTC concrete samples. I don't believe there are any! The concrete floor slabs were a structural component of the Twin Towers yet NIST chose to ignore them and focussed on the steel.

And , by the way, the HCl/Cl2 attack on the steel columns in NOT the major concern. You need to consider the effects of HCl, Cl2, fluxing agents such as ZnCl2 AND liquid zinc, copper or lead on the steel bolts and the welds....

Where is the WTC surface analytical data on the fractured bolts?

Where I worked, if a bolt failed in any component in a coal, oil, natural gas or nuclear power station it was sent to our lab for failure analysis. That would generally mean the fracture surface of the failed bolt was analysed in a SEM and an EDAX spectrum recorded. Eventually a full report was written. All this for ONE BOLT!

How many bolts/welds failed in the Twin Towers?

How many fracture surfaces were analysed?
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Old 1st May 2007, 01:09 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Do you guys not understand what the word "ignored" means?
What was this immature attack for? I must say that I am not surprised if anybody chooses to ignore you when it is clear to me and others that you have a really bad attitude.

Last edited by ~enigma~; 1st May 2007 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 1st May 2007, 01:15 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
The chemical energy released by the reactions of iron and zinc with HCl and O2 on the fire-affected floors of WTC 1 & 2 was about ten times LARGER than the potential energy released by the first one story drop of the upper section of WTC 1. So the CHEMICAL energies liberated in the WTC collapse were far larger than the gravitational energies.

And no one has answered my question about NIST's analysis of bolts and concrete, yet I have been assured NIST found no evidence for embrittlement.

And we haven't even talked about embrittlement of the welds.

And finally, I HAVE contacted NIST and been completely ignored!

Other scientists have, however, been most helpful including Profs Bazant, Cahill, and Barnett, etc, etc...
Fire released more energy than gravity? Yes. Gravity of each building was about 248 tons of TNT per tower. Did everyone forget fire was a chemical reaction.

Fire, just from the jet fuel 315 tons of TNT of energy. (want joules, buy the rights)

Fire from the rest of the WTC burning, was what? 150 200 tons more of TNT energy.

Yes the chemical energy released was about twice the gravitational energy. What is the point? Are you upset because NIST will not answer you? Where is you paper and what are the conclusions? Why are you slow rolling and teasing as you try to make some veiled point? Why not present your neat stuff in a nice understandable fashion and tell all what it means and why. Who needs NIST?

Are you trying to say the failure of components on 9/11 were at the weak points due to the facts and evidence you are teasing all with? Why was your paper straight forward?

Are you now presenting some facts about the reaction, formerly known as fire, and you are telling us what was really happening as the chemical reaction was weakening the steel in the building?

Why not present some papers and idea instead of teasing people? Make some conclusions and present the evidence. Can you do that? Where can we see your stuff and what is the executive summary?

Why does anyone need NIST to debunk Jones, Fetzer, Ross, Woods, Reynolds, and Charlie Sheen?

Last edited by beachnut; 1st May 2007 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 1st May 2007, 01:37 PM   #149
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Apollo, do you intend to answer...

Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Do you guys not understand what the word "ignored" means?
What was this immature attack for? I must say that I am not surprised if anybody chooses to ignore you when it is clear to me and others that you have a really bad attitude.
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Old 1st May 2007, 01:51 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Analytical data derived from air monitoring at, or near, Ground Zero in the period September 2001 to May 2002 show that hydrogen chloride and many chlorinated organic species were present at significant levels up to December 2001. These included aliphatic species such as chloroform, chloroethane and di-chloroethane as well as the aromatic compounds chlorobenzene and di-chlorobenzene.

Apart from HCl, which is indeed a major product of the thermal degradation of PVC, the major decomposition products from heating PVC in the temperature range 300 500 C are: benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, chlorobenzene, di-chlorobenzene and tri-chlorobenzene. All of these species were observed in the air at Ground Zero. Furthermore, the relative abundances of the PVC-derived compounds are consistent with literature data on the thermal decomposition of PVC.
Thank you.
This is useful information, in a way--but does not really help with our problem of iron-zinc spheroids and when they were formed and how they were distributed.
The breakdown of PVC is no surprise--several sources have said the same thing. We have stipulated that things break down when hot, and that HCl is one of the results of hot PVC.
Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post

The total amount of PVC in the Twin Towers may be estimated to be at least 3 tonnes per floor. PVC releases 57 % of its weight as HCl when heated above about 350 deg C, (with or without the presence of air). The associated energy release is 38 MJ/kg. HCl attacks zinc, copper and iron forming LOW MELTING POINT chlorides. Ferric chloride BOILS at 319 deg C......
6000 pounds of PVC per floor-that is about 7 pounds /square foot.
seems a bit excessive, but ok
Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
On the topic of NIST's contribution to this question: It is interesting to note that the surface analytical data presented by S. W. Banovic in NIST NCSTAR 1-3C show that for the single column sample K-16, chlorine was the most abundant species (after iron of course!), and was generally HIGHER than the much debated sulfur. And if you look at the USGS Particle Atlas Table of XRF analyses for concrete particulate in WTC dust more than 50 % showed the presence of chlorine. This chlorine cannot be indigenous to the concrete since chloride ion is specified to be less than 200 ppm in concrete because of its deleterious effects on this material.

This is why I have asked about NIST's analyses of WTC concrete samples. I don't believe there are any! The concrete floor slabs were a structural component of the Twin Towers yet NIST chose to ignore them and focussed on the steel.
Nope, sorry. Concrete floors were parasitic. The trusswork supporting them was structure, but not the concrete.
Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post

And , by the way, the HCl/Cl2 attack on the steel columns in NOT the major concern. You need to consider the effects of HCl, Cl2, fluxing agents such as ZnCl2 AND liquid zinc, copper or lead on the steel bolts and the welds....

Where is the WTC surface analytical data on the fractured bolts?

Where I worked, if a bolt failed in any component in a coal, oil, natural gas or nuclear power station it was sent to our lab for failure analysis. That would generally mean the fracture surface of the failed bolt was analysed in a SEM and an EDAX spectrum recorded. Eventually a full report was written. All this for ONE BOLT!

How many bolts/welds failed in the Twin Towers?

How many fracture surfaces were analysed?
penetration rates for zinc/ sulphides/chlorides into steel? If less than, say, 1/2 inch/hour (an arbitrary and totally made-up number, based on my own belief that the stuff would have to penetrate pretty deep to do much more damage than the thermal effects, and the fact that it only hadan hour to operate in) , it isn't relevant-all examination of the fracture surfaces would tell is whether they were contaminated, with nothing revealed about when they were contaminated
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:29 PM   #151
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This looks incorrect, please check:

"6000 pounds of PVC per floor-that is about 7 pounds /square foot."
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:30 PM   #152
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Apollo, do you intend to answer...

Originally Posted by Apollo20
Do you guys not understand what the word "ignored" means?

What was this immature attack for? I must say that I am not surprised if anybody chooses to ignore you when it is clear to me and others that you have a really bad attitude.
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:41 PM   #153
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Yes,

"Do you guys not understand what the word "ignore" means?"
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:43 PM   #154
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Enigma:

Touche! (Sorry I don't know how to do "e acute".)
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:45 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Thank you.
This is useful information, in a way--but does not really help with our problem of iron-zinc spheroids and when they were formed and how they were distributed.
The breakdown of PVC is no surprise--several sources have said the same thing. We have stipulated that things break down when hot, and that HCl is one of the results of hot PVC.
6000 pounds of PVC per floor-that is about 7 pounds /square foot.
seems a bit excessive, but ok

Nope, sorry. Concrete floors were parasitic. The trusswork supporting them was structure, but not the concrete.

penetration rates for zinc/ sulphides/chlorides into steel? If less than, say, 1/2 inch/hour (an arbitrary and totally made-up number, based on my own belief that the stuff would have to penetrate pretty deep to do much more damage than the thermal effects, and the fact that it only hadan hour to operate in) , it isn't relevant-all examination of the fracture surfaces would tell is whether they were contaminated, with nothing revealed about when they were contaminated
Sulfuric acid has had decades to penetrate the steel is that long enough?
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:46 PM   #156
~enigma~
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Yes,

"Do you guys not understand what the word "ignore" means?"
Well you sort of answered. Not much of a reason for attacking. So would you be offended if we all started responding to you in kind?
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:47 PM   #157
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RWGUINN:

You used the term "pretty deep" in your last post. Could you please quantify this and provide a reference.
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:48 PM   #158
~enigma~
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Enigma:

Touche! (Sorry I don't know how to do "e acute".)
Hey...I am Jewish and that was awfully close to tushy...but thank you for the compliment
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:49 PM   #159
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ENIGMA:

It would be great to have some technical input from you, do you have any?
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Old 1st May 2007, 05:49 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Touche! (Sorry I don't know how to do "e acute".)


Glad I could help.
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