Continuation General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by webfusion

If they want to change the dynamic, they have to start looking at HAMAS differently.
Many have done so, and are thoroughly disgusted with them.

I see this war ending with HAMAS guys (and their families) getting onto VanHool and Mercedes buses by their multitudes and being given free passage out of Gaza. (See: PLO, Beirut, 1982)

That went well for the Palestinians didn't it. In an amazing parallel with 07/10 the IDF supervised a massacre of the Palestinian civilians in Shatila and Sabra refugee camps. Pretty much the same numbers killed.Wiitnesses who might have testified against Dayan were murdered by Mossad in further acts of Israeli state terrorism.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Planigale

That went well for the Palestinians didn't it. In an amazing parallel with 07/10 the IDF supervised a massacre of the Palestinian civilians in Shatila and Sabra refugee camps. Pretty much the same numbers killed.Wiitnesses who might have testified against Dayan were murdered by Mossad in further acts of Israeli state terrorism.

I am curious as to why you omit to mention the Lebanese Christian militias, who were the ones who actually carried out the massacre.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Leumas

If he has stolen your house and you are doing it out of a concentration camp... that would be a more complete analogy.

It wasn't an analogy. Try reading properly before launching another tirade.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Why exactly? Do you deny that Israel has power or that its power is mostly from the USA's tax payers' Billion$$$$?

The assumption that Jews control the world is a classic example of antisemitism.
But you knew that.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by BrettM

That might be the general idea. By the time the IDF has killed all the Hamas terrorists in Gaza, there won't be any civilian Palestinians left in Gaza, either.

And presumably you do not condemn that outcome.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I'm actually pretty astonished that you would argue that the Gazans, all of them, pretty much deserve to be bombed to rubble because they voted for Hamas in 2006. There are all kinds of asterisks that need to be added to that point, but even if taken at face value, that is the idea that they sealed their fate 17 years ago.

While I do not believe that Gazan civilians deserve the kind of bombing Israel is meting out, I do believe that they (the civilians) could have done more to rid themselves of a regime that was doing them no favours at all. Hamas' rule has been nothing but a disaster for the people of Gaza: had they spent a fraction of the time and energy they use for hating Israel and the Jews, in overthrowing Hamas, they would not be in the mess they are in now.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

"Just because the US is collectively responsible for their leaders" - do you mean "just as"? But how does that work? I do remember hearing people saying that America was responsible for 9/11, and they did not mean an inside job; they claimed Americans were responsible for having elected their leaders whose foreign policy decisions were the chickens coming home to roost. I thought that was pretty disgusting, but hear you are essentially making the same argument for why every Gazan who is bombed basically deserves it because of Hamas having received a plurality of the vote back in 2006.

US public support for the invasion of Iraq was sky high at the time. I don't think it unreasonable to hold America as a whole responsible for that invasion.
That doesn't mean that American civilians deserve to be attacked, but the point of a democracy is it's supposed to by rule by the people. The people are, therefore, responsible (to a degree) for what those rulers do. As I noted above, the people of Hamas could have done more- indeed, done anything at all- to rid themselves of rule by Hamas. They did not, and therefore, by the same measure, they do have to accept at least some responsibility for Hamas' actions.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I don't really understand how anyone can look at some of the devastation that the IDF is meting out to Gaza and the destruction of the homes and lives of the civilians there and not be moved by it. My suspicion is that deep down even some of the staunchest supporters of Israel feel uneasy about it, so they choose either not to think about it too much or to drive those thoughts away with bluster and accusations that anyone who doesn't go along with it must be anti-semitic Hamas supporters. I don't buy it. I think it reflects an uneasy conscience. I expect that in a year or two some of the people who are cheering this on and saying this is all the fault of Hamas, and that the Gazan civilians shouldn't have had so much hate in their hearts when they voted for Hamas are going to look back and say, "Yeah, maybe Israel went a bit too far... just like the invasion of Iraq was maybe the wrong response to 9/11..." but they will try not to think about it too much.

Not sure who this applies to, but it isn't me. I have been open in my condemnation of the extent and nature of Israel's response, even though I do not support Hamas in any way.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Autochthonous people of any place are not "given the right to occupy" the lands of their ancestors... they are the INDIGINOUS people of the land... do you know English well enough to understand the meaning of the word "indigenous" or "autochthonous"????

Do you know anything about anthropology?

I do know that you deny history... but do you deny REALITY too?

Who gave the Native American the right to live on the lands of their ancestors?

Who gave the Maoris the right to live on the lands of their ancestors?

Who gave the Australian Aborigines the right to live on the lands of their ancestors?

Who gave the Zulus the right to live on the lands of their ancestors?

When the Europeans went to the Americas/Australia and Ethnically Cleansed and genocided the indigenous populations... that... is what the European Zionists did to the Palestinians.

When the Afrikaans went to South Africa and killed and ethnically cleansed and established apartheid against the Zulus and other indigenous people of that land... that is exactly what the European Zionist Settler Colonialist Jihadists have done to the Palestinians.... not just in Gaza but all over Israel and its concentration camps.

So you have nothing. Thanks for the admission.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I forgot to mention Israel continues to demolish "illegal" Arab construction while lending a blind eye to or even giving retroactive approval to illegal Jewish construction.

This war did not begin on 07/10. All this year oppression and abuse of Palestinians in the West Bank has increased. Settlement expansion has accelerated. Settler and IDF violence has increased. More Palestinian children have been murdered by the IDF in the West Bank this year than Hamas murdered Israeli children on 07/10.

Here is a video of an eight year shot in the back whilst running from IDF. A surprisingly large number of Palestinian children are murdered by being shot in the back by the IDF.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/ne...orces-in-jenin

Jewish terrorists kill Palestinians under the supervision of the occupying IDF.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...ttler-shot-him

Palestinian detainees from the West Bank are systematically abused by IDF and Israeli prison service.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...sraeli-custody

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

I am curious as to why you omit to mention the Lebanese Christian militias, who were the ones who actually carried out the massacre.

Because when the NAZIs used to sic their dogs onto their victims it was the NAZI bastards to blame not the trained attack dogs.

The Lebanese Phalange were attack dogs trained by Israeli Zionist Jihadists... just like NAZIs trained Alsatian dogs... and they sicced them onto the REFUGEE INNOCENT CIVILIANS in the refugee camps which were the camps created by civilian refugees fleeing the monstrous crimes against them by the Zionist Jihadists during the Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine years earlier.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

It wasn't an analogy. Try reading properly before launching another tirade.

It was... and you have no idea what an analogy is then.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

The assumption that Jews control the world is a classic example of antisemitism.

That was YOUR assumption from what was said... and thus it is YOUR antisemitism not his.

Israel has power and it is not antisemitic to be against Israel or Zionism or to say that Israel has power.

If you try to make it so then the antisemitism is YOURS.

But of course you bloody well already

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

...knew that.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

...people of Gaza: had they spent a fraction of the time and energy...

In the concentration camp that the Israeli Zionist Jihadist Settler Colonialists have confined them into... they had little energy that Israel trickled to them... whether electrical or chemical or nutritional.

Quote:

Since 2007, Gaza has been subject to a strict land and sea blockade by Israel that prevents civilians and goods such as food and medicine from easily moving across the border. Israel says the blockade is necessary to limit Hamas’s access to weapons. Egypt has been accused of backing the blockade by restricting movement at the Rafah crossing.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

I am curious as to why you omit to mention the Lebanese Christian militias, who were the ones who actually carried out the massacre.

I suppose the relationship was a bit like hHezbollah and Iran, except that the IDF was literally watching the massacre carried out. Even the Israeli enquiry admitted indirect responsibility, and everyone else thought there was direct responsibility. The militias were armed by Israel and acted under the direction of Israel. The US also had some responsibility as they were supposed to be guarantors of security after the Palestinian fighters pulled out of the refugee camps. You could ask who were the shields the civilians protecting the fighters or the fighters embedded in the camp protecting the civilians.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic

Nearly all Hamas rockets are not much more than a big firework. A pipe filled with a sugar and fertilizer propellant and a grenade with nails for a warhead.

Originally Posted by Leumas

It was... and you have no idea what an analogy is then.

Nope. PartSkeptic- as can be seen from the quote- is giving a literal description of a Hamas rocket. An analogy is a comparison with something else, used to clarify: there is no comparison here, just a factual description.

Your efforts to excuse and exculpate yourself from your earlier egregious erroneousness, by arrantly attempting, again, to arrogantly assert your aforementioned appaling aberration, are abjectly asinine.
In other words, doubling down on a mistake doesn't make you right, and you're not the only one with an extensive vocabulary at his command.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I forgot to mention Israel continues to demolish "illegal" Arab construction while lending a blind eye to or even giving retroactive approval to illegal Jewish construction.

An unfortunate consequence of the Israeli policy of killing suspected terrorists rather than arresting them is that an Israeli civilian who shot a terrorist was then killed by the IDF despite kneeling down with his hands in the air shouting that he was Jewish. His father wants the soldier tried. It is clear that the government doesn't want this otherwise the 'unofficial' policy of murdering Palestinians will have to become official.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776298

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Leumas

In the concentration camp that the Israeli Zionist Jihadist Settler Colonialists have confined them into... they had little energy that Israel trickled to them... whether electrical or chemical or nutritional.

*sigh*
The reason Gaza is under blockade is precisely because of Hamas. It is a documented fact that Hamas diverted much of the aid coming in to Gaza, to use for military purposes. This includes digging up water pipes to make rockets, using cement to build tunnels rather than houses, and producing antisemitic textbooks for use in schools, as a means of radicalising and brainwashing the next generation of murderous fanatics.
Had Hamas not done this, there is every chance that there would be no blockade.
Note too, that Egypt is also blockading their border at Rafah, after Hamas dug tunnels under it and launched jihadist attacks in Egypt, on Egyptians. Again, this is entirely Hamas' fault, the effect being only to add to the suffering of the Palestinian people.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Nope. PartSkeptic- as can be seen from the quote- is giving a literal description of a Hamas rocket. An analogy is a comparison with something else, used to clarify: there is no comparison here, just a factual description.

The analogy was yours... not his... read your reply to which I replied... I replied to YOUR analogy in YOUR reply.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Your efforts to excuse and exculpate yourself from your earlier egregious erroneousness, by arrantly attempting, again, to arrogantly assert your aforementioned appaling aberration, are abjectly asinine.
In other words, doubling down on a mistake doesn't make you right, and you're not the only one with an extensive vocabulary at his command.

Yup... the above applies to you... you are self-projecting.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

*sigh*
The reason Gaza is under blockade is precisely because .....

Long before there was a ruse called Hamas... in fact 127 years ago... Ashkenazi Zionists used the ruse of Zionism to con people into allowing them to establish an Ashkenazi Nationalist Socialist Settler Colonialist project in Palestine... and subsequently they started The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine which has been ongoing for the last 75 years before any Hamas terrorists were used by the war criminal Netanyahu and other Zionist Jihadists as yet another ruse to hoodwink and bamboozle humanity just as did the Ashkenazi Zionists of the 19th century and the British Christian Zionists in the 17th century.

[The_Animus]

Originally Posted by lionking

Hamas has launched tens of thousands of rockets at Israel. What is your tolerance level?

And Israel secretly funded HAMAS knowing they do that. So what is your tolerance level? Are you cool with knowingly funding terrorists and then when they commit terrorist attacks, using that as an excuse to kill tens of thousands of innocents?

[lionking]

Originally Posted by The_Animus

And Israel secretly funded HAMAS knowing they do that. So what is your tolerance level? Are you cool with knowingly funding terrorists and then when they commit terrorist attacks, using that as an excuse to kill tens of thousands of innocents?

This is a dishonest post. Israel, along with many other countries, did provide humanitarian aid to Gaza years ago in the hope it would be used for infrastructure. That money was stolen by Hamas.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by lionking

So you have nothing. Thanks for the admission.

Yes of course I have nothing of the lies and perfidious Zionist propaganda that you expected me to regurgitate...

Instead I have FACTS based in REALITY... which is not in accord with the Zionist propaganda "alternative facts" you wished I would repeat.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by lionking

This is a dishonest post. Israel, along with many other countries, did provide humanitarian aid to Gaza years ago in the hope it would be used for infrastructure. That money was stolen by Hamas.

There are accusations, by many Israelis, that Netanyahu specifically helped Hamas, and apparently did so explicitly with the aim of dividing the Palestinians given that Hamas was losing power and influence.

It is Netanyahu who claims it was just humanitarian assistance.

Link

I don't really know what to believe, but I won't take his word for it.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

While I do not believe that Gazan civilians deserve the kind of bombing Israel is meting out, I do believe that they (the civilians) could have done more to rid themselves of a regime that was doing them no favours at all. Hamas' rule has been nothing but a disaster for the people of Gaza: had they spent a fraction of the time and energy they use for hating Israel and the Jews, in overthrowing Hamas, they would not be in the mess they are in now.

It seems we agree pretty much.

Quote:

While I do believe that they (the civilians) could have done more to rid themselves of a regime that was doing them no favours at all, I do not believe that Gazan civilians deserve the kind of bombing Israel is meting out

It's difficult to know how regular Gazans are supposed to overthrow Hamas. We saw that Fatah did try, and got wiped out in 2007.

Do we assume that everyone in Gaza is fine with Hamas? Or is it more likely that Hamas have a stranglehold on the population and that trying to rise up against them is very dangerous and likely to result in death for you and your family?

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

US public support for the invasion of Iraq was sky high at the time. I don't think it unreasonable to hold America as a whole responsible for that invasion.
That doesn't mean that American civilians deserve to be attacked, but the point of a democracy is it's supposed to by rule by the people. The people are, therefore, responsible (to a degree) for what those rulers do. As I noted above, the people of Hamas could have done more- indeed, done anything at all- to rid themselves of rule by Hamas. They did not, and therefore, by the same measure, they do have to accept at least some responsibility for Hamas' actions.

If it is not "unreasonable to hold America as a whole responsible for that invasion" then what follows from that? Does that mean they deserve to be attacked? Oh, no, they don't as you say "That doesn't mean that American civilians deserve to be attacked". So what does it mean? Oh..."but the point of a democracy is it's supposed to by rule by the people." Oooookay... so that does that mean they deserve to...wait... Instead of all this back and forth, why not just state simply what you think. You seem to be loading up your post with so much equivocation that I don't even know what you are claiming.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Not sure who this applies to, but it isn't me. I have been open in my condemnation of the extent and nature of Israel's response, even though I do not support Hamas in any way.

I was responding to lionking. I literally quoted what he was saying in my post, so I am not sure why you assumed I was talking to you.

But anyway, as I say, if we are agreed, then great.

[The_Animus]

Originally Posted by lionking

This is a dishonest post. Israel, along with many other countries, did provide humanitarian aid to Gaza years ago in the hope it would be used for infrastructure. That money was stolen by Hamas.

They were allowing suitcases of cash in the back of a car to be delivered to Hamas. After they were caught Netanyahu claimed it was humanitarian aid. I'm no expert but I don't think humanitarian aid is done via suitcases of cash in secret.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by The_Animus

They were allowing suitcases of cash in the back of a car to be delivered to Hamas. After they were caught Netanyahu claimed it was humanitarian aid. I'm no expert but I don't think humanitarian aid is done via suitcases of cash in secret.

Yeah, this is from the Jerusalem Post:

Quote:

The money was given to Hamas by Qatar. The chairman of the Qatari Committee for the Reconstruction of the Gaza Strip, Mohammed al-Emadi, entered Gaza with the cash. The funds could only have entered Gaza with Israel’s approval.

The funds are designated to pay civil servant salaries. The PA has halted those payments as part of strict economic sanctions, which it has imposed on the Gaza Strip in its bid to wrest control of Gaza from Hamas. The terror group has forcibly ruled Gaza since it ousted Fatah in a bloody coup in 2007.
Hamas demanded funds to pay civil servant salaries as one of the conditions that would need to be met in order to halt violent riots along the border and the launching of incendiary devices into Gaza.

Netanyahu said that he had no intention of using Israeli funds to bribe Hamas. But the UN and Egypt, which have worked intensely to restore calm, have explored the option of Qatari funds to pay civil servant salaries in order to quell domestic unrest.

Opposition leader MK Tzipi Livni (Zionist Union) noted that this was an apt end to a day that began with news of indictments against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s associates in a bribery case and ended with suitcases of cash for a terror group who has sworn to destroy Israel.

The suitcases could only have gone in with Netanyahu’s approval, she said. The prime minister “has sold out [our] security to his associates and has purchased temporary quiet from Hamas,” she added “Netanyahu has to go.”

So not even a claim of humanitarian aid, but to pay off "civil servants", and a prediction that this will blow up in Netanyahu's face. In fact, the PA was even applying sanctions to Hamas. For those who say the Palestinians are not doing enough to rise up against Hamas, and then we read the ******* PM of Israel was allowing suitcases of cash to go to Hamas.

Jesus F Christ!

[Nessie]

The British government, very sensibly, did not give cash to the IRA.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Leumas

The analogy was yours... not his... read your reply to which I replied... I replied to YOUR analogy in YOUR reply.

Wow. You are SO bad at this.
I made no analogy either. I asked PartSkeptic how he would feel if someone threw a nail-studded grenade into his house. This was not an analogy: it was a direct question, about an actual grenade, not an analogous grenade.
A hypothetical question like that, is not an analogy.
Now, perhaps, as you're so cocksure that I made an analogy, you could explain what that analogy was.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Yup... the above applies to you... you are self-projecting.

Predictably puerile.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

It's difficult to know how regular Gazans are supposed to overthrow Hamas. We saw that Fatah did try, and got wiped out in 2007.

Do we assume that everyone in Gaza is fine with Hamas? Or is it more likely that Hamas have a stranglehold on the population and that trying to rise up against them is very dangerous and likely to result in death for you and your family?

Danger is an unfortunate ever-present feature of life in Gaza. It could be lessened by the removal of Hamas, so it would be in the interests of the people of Gaza to do so.
Does this have to be done by means of a violent revolution? Not necessarily. Pressure could be applied by other means.
For a start, they could simply show the IDF where Hamas is hiding, and let the Israelis deal with them. Win-win.
Alternatively, they could use diplomatic means. Reach out to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar. Get them to put pressure on Hamas, and also on Iran, which is funding them.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

If it is not "unreasonable to hold America as a whole responsible for that invasion" then what follows from that? Does that mean they deserve to be attacked? Oh, no, they don't as you say "That doesn't mean that American civilians deserve to be attacked". So what does it mean? Oh..."but the point of a democracy is it's supposed to by rule by the people." Oooookay... so that does that mean they deserve to...wait... Instead of all this back and forth, why not just state simply what you think. You seem to be loading up your post with so much equivocation that I don't even know what you are claiming.

Sorry: I thought I had stated what I think in simple terms.
There are other choices between 'it's totes not their fault they have a terrorist government' (and by this, I mean both Gaza and the States), and 'They deserve to be bombed for what their government did'.
The point is, a population cannot simply wash its hands of the actions of the government it elected. Consequences of that can range from media criticism to sanctions, but those consequences are justified. Killing people is not.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I was responding to lionking. I literally quoted what he was saying in my post, so I am not sure why you assumed I was talking to you.

There is a tendency in this thread, to paint members in very broad, and polarised, strokes. Not every critic of Hamas gives their unqualified support to Israel. I just wanted to emphasise that.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

But anyway, as I say, if we are agreed, then great.

Sounds like we are. All good.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

So not even a claim of humanitarian aid, but to pay off "civil servants", and a prediction that this will blow up in Netanyahu's face. In fact, the PA was even applying sanctions to Hamas. For those who say the Palestinians are not doing enough to rise up against Hamas, and then we read the ******* PM of Israel was allowing suitcases of cash to go to Hamas.

Jesus F Christ!

Let me refer you back to my comment about polarised depictions of posters' views.
My dislike of Hamas does not make me a supporter of Netanyahu.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Danger is an unfortunate ever-present feature of life in Gaza. It could be lessened by the removal of Hamas, so it would be in the interests of the people of Gaza to do so.
Does this have to be done by means of a violent revolution? Not necessarily. Pressure could be applied by other means.
For a start, they could simply show the IDF where Hamas is hiding, and let the Israelis deal with them. Win-win.
Alternatively, they could use diplomatic means. Reach out to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar. Get them to put pressure on Hamas, and also on Iran, which is funding them.




Sorry: I thought I had stated what I think in simple terms.
There are other choices between 'it's totes not their fault they have a terrorist government' (and by this, I mean both Gaza and the States), and 'They deserve to be bombed for what their government did'.
The point is, a population cannot simply wash its hands of the actions of the government it elected. Consequences of that can range from media criticism to sanctions, but those consequences are justified. Killing people is not.



There is a tendency in this thread, to paint members in very broad, and polarised, strokes. Not every critic of Hamas gives their unqualified support to Israel. I just wanted to emphasise that.



Sounds like we are. All good.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Let me refer you back to my comment about polarised depictions of posters' views.
My dislike of Hamas does not make me a supporter of Netanyahu.

I expect we agree all round here.

[webfusion]

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-776407
"The Second Sundays Art and Music Festival has traditionally been a unifying event, emphasizing messages of unity, love, and light."
(in other words, a hippy-dippy American version of the NOVA Art & Music Festival)

But what did the organizers do? Instead of some sort of quiet commemoration for 10-7 atrocities against peaceable fellow-travelers & Festival-goers in Israel, (or, at best, a moment of silence for all the innocents in this conflict) they decided to tell US Jews that they weren't welcome at this event, at all, unless there was a banner erected on stage demandng for Israel to stop fighting against those who sent the perpetrators of 10-7.

This whole story in Virginia is upsetting, on various levels.
The exclusion of the Jewish community from this festival (which prides itself on inclusivity) has raised questions about the festival's commitment to moral values.

To be clear, the menorah lighting, which was to be led by a local community rabbi, had nothing to do with Israel or the conflict.

[Lithrael]

Originally Posted by webfusion

To be clear, the menorah lighting, which was to be led by a local community rabbi, had nothing to do with Israel or the conflict.

Oof, yeah, that's pretty ******. They almost got points for cancelling ALL religious events at the festival, but then dunked themselves by offering to put it back under a 'don't worry, we're the nice ones' banner.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by webfusion

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-776407
"The Second Sundays Art and Music Festival has traditionally been a unifying event, emphasizing messages of unity, love, and light."
(in other words, a hippy-dippy American version of the NOVA Art & Music Festival)

But what did the organizers do? Instead of some sort of quiet commemoration for 10-7 atrocities against peaceable fellow-travelers & Festival-goers in Israel, (or, at best, a moment of silence for all the innocents in this conflict) they decided to tell US Jews that they weren't welcome at this event, at all, unless there was a banner erected on stage demandng for Israel to stop fighting against those who sent the perpetrators of 10-7.

This whole story in Virginia is upsetting, on various levels.
The exclusion of the Jewish community from this festival (which prides itself on inclusivity) has raised questions about the festival's commitment to moral values.

To be clear, the menorah lighting, which was to be led by a local community rabbi, had nothing to do with Israel or the conflict.

Israel needs to understand that when they misbehave it affects Jews everywhere. We Jews in America are often the ultimate victims of Israel's crimes.

Meanwhile, illegal ZioniSSt settlers are taking advantage of the Gaza Massacre to build more illegal outposts and roads. Of course Israel will do literally nothing about it because they dont care when Jews do illegal construction, only when Arabs do it.

https://peacenow.org.il/en/new-roads...-amid-gaza-war

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Israel needs to understand that when they misbehave it affects Jews everywhere. We Jews in America are often the ultimate victims of Israel's crimes.

No. Jews in America are victims of antisemitism, just as Jews all over the world are. Don't make excuses for that antisemitism. That's what it is, that's all it is, and it's Stockholm syndrome to expect Israel's behavior can ever make it go away. Israel is the pretense, not the reason.