[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8 - Page 49

jeremyp · Today, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Not likely. They still have millions to burn. Men at least.

No they don't. Russia was in a population crisis even before this war (so was Ukraine).

Dr.Sid · Today, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

No they don't. Russia was in a population crisis even before this war (so was Ukraine).

They have 143 million citizens, about half of them are men, about half of them are capable of fighting (or at least being moved to the front to die). Even if half of those run abroad that's still ten millions.
And then you have women, who still did very little dying for the motherland.

steenkh · Today, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

No they don't. Russia was in a population crisis even before this war (so was Ukraine).

Are you talking about Russia proper, or the entire Russian Federation?

The Don · Today, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

They have 143 million citizens, about half of them are men, about half of them are capable of fighting (or at least being moved to the front to die). Even if half of those run abroad that's still ten millions.
And then you have women, who still did very little dying for the motherland.

It's a sad and harsh piece of arithmetic but IMO true. It would take millions to die before there's a peep of complaint from the Russian people an tens of millions before they'd be prepared to do anything about it.

lobosrul5 · Today, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

They have 143 million citizens, about half of them are men, about half of them are capable of fighting (or at least being moved to the front to die). Even if half of those run abroad that's still ten millions.
And then you have women, who still did very little dying for the motherland.

And each one you take who isn't a worthless drug addict or prisoner was doing a job. That hurts Russia's economy. Russia is going to run out of "dregs of society" types or recent immigrants sooner rather than later. Once the working and middle classes get dragged off to fight things may change. And, if they start dragging women off to fight their population crisis will worsen. Also, Russia is a very patriarchal society, if they start putting women on the front lines thats a very clear sign to their people that things are going badly wrong in Ukraine.

Russia cannot draft millions of fit men and women with no consequences. Eventually there will be rioting in the streets, or an entire units of soldiers mutinying.

Andy_Ross · Today, 02:59 PM

They don't have the equipment for them anyway. What are they going to dress them in or give them to fight with?

Who will train them?

Dr.Sid · Today, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Russia cannot draft millions of fit men and women with no consequences. Eventually there will be rioting in the streets, or an entire units of soldiers mutinying.

Yes. But it will happen before they stop sending men to death. And more importantly, they might run out of men after Ukraine does.

Andy_Ross · Today, 03:02 PM

Behave.

The Don · Today, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

They don't have the equipment for them anyway. What are they going to dress them in or give them to fight with?

Who will train them?

Training will be delivered on the front. Anyone who survives a few weeks will be considered fully trained.

I'm sure they'll be able to find some WWII (or WWI) surplus rifles somewhere for the cannon fodder and doubtless there's still a few thousand old tanks in storage

MarkCorrigan · Today, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

Training will be delivered on the front. Anyone who survives a few weeks will be considered fully trained.

I'm sure they'll be able to find some WWII (or WWI) surplus rifles somewhere for the cannon fodder and doubtless there's still a few thousand old tanks in storage

No. Just...no.

I know being a massive downer is your "thing" but be realistic about it at least.

Dr.Sid · Today, 03:46 PM

Why give them training and weapons with that kind of losses ?
I mean you must move them to the front. Ukraine must spend money killing them, that's the point. But anything beyond that is just waste of resources.

The Don · Today, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

No. Just...no.

I know being a massive downer is your "thing" but be realistic about it at least.

The Russian people have been told that Ukraine represents a threat to Russia and that they're fighting for the very existence of their country. Myths and memories of the Great Patriotic War are very strong.

Aridas · Today, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

No. Just...no.

I know being a massive downer is your "thing" but be realistic about it at least.

Err... what he's describing isn't much different from what Russia's actually been doing for some time now, IIRC. That's combined with cannon fodder attackers being reported to be virtually unarmed in their suicide runs so that Ukrainian positions can be located and attacked with artillery.

theprestige · Today, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

suicide runs so that Ukrainian positions can be located and attacked with artillery.

We know what Moscow is trying to do. It seems pretty obvious that at this point they lack the numbers and the skill to actually achieve results that way. Zeno's advance is not a path to victory.

Jimbo07 · Today, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Zeno's advance is not a path to victory.

For either Russia or Ukraine. That's the problem. This war is only over when Moscow says it is. In the meantime, they seem content with 300,000 casualties, 500,000, one million maybe. A half million Russian lives is a sacrifice Putin is willing to make.

Today, 09:07 AM	#1923
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,126	Originally Posted by jeremyp No they don't. Russia was in a population crisis even before this war (so was Ukraine). Are you talking about Russia proper, or the entire Russian Federation?
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

Today, 01:15 PM	#1925
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid They have 143 million citizens, about half of them are men, about half of them are capable of fighting (or at least being moved to the front to die). Even if half of those run abroad that's still ten millions. And then you have women, who still did very little dying for the motherland. And each one you take who isn't a worthless drug addict or prisoner was doing a job. That hurts Russia's economy. Russia is going to run out of "dregs of society" types or recent immigrants sooner rather than later. Once the working and middle classes get dragged off to fight things may change. And, if they start dragging women off to fight their population crisis will worsen. Also, Russia is a very patriarchal society, if they start putting women on the front lines thats a very clear sign to their people that things are going badly wrong in Ukraine. Russia cannot draft millions of fit men and women with no consequences. Eventually there will be rioting in the streets, or an entire units of soldiers mutinying.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

Today, 02:59 PM	#1926
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,390	They don't have the equipment for them anyway. What are they going to dress them in or give them to fight with? Who will train them?
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

Today, 03:02 PM	#1928
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,390	Behave.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

Today, 03:41 PM	#1930
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 12,740	Originally Posted by The Don Training will be delivered on the front. Anyone who survives a few weeks will be considered fully trained. I'm sure they'll be able to find some WWII (or WWI) surplus rifles somewhere for the cannon fodder and doubtless there's still a few thousand old tanks in storage No. Just...no. I know being a massive downer is your "thing" but be realistic about it at least.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

Today, 06:52 AM	#1921
jeremyp Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 3,824	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Not likely. They still have millions to burn. Men at least. No they don't. Russia was in a population crisis even before this war (so was Ukraine).

Today, 08:27 AM	#1922
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	Originally Posted by jeremyp No they don't. Russia was in a population crisis even before this war (so was Ukraine). They have 143 million citizens, about half of them are men, about half of them are capable of fighting (or at least being moved to the front to die). Even if half of those run abroad that's still ten millions. And then you have women, who still did very little dying for the motherland.

Today, 11:13 AM	#1924
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 37,271	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid They have 143 million citizens, about half of them are men, about half of them are capable of fighting (or at least being moved to the front to die). Even if half of those run abroad that's still ten millions. And then you have women, who still did very little dying for the motherland. It's a sad and harsh piece of arithmetic but IMO true. It would take millions to die before there's a peep of complaint from the Russian people an tens of millions before they'd be prepared to do anything about it.

Today, 03:01 PM	#1927
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Russia cannot draft millions of fit men and women with no consequences. Eventually there will be rioting in the streets, or an entire units of soldiers mutinying. Yes. But it will happen before they stop sending men to death. And more importantly, they might run out of men after Ukraine does.

Today, 03:29 PM	#1929
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 37,271	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross They don't have the equipment for them anyway. What are they going to dress them in or give them to fight with? Who will train them? Training will be delivered on the front. Anyone who survives a few weeks will be considered fully trained. I'm sure they'll be able to find some WWII (or WWI) surplus rifles somewhere for the cannon fodder and doubtless there's still a few thousand old tanks in storage

Today, 03:46 PM	#1931
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	Why give them training and weapons with that kind of losses ? I mean you must move them to the front. Ukraine must spend money killing them, that's the point. But anything beyond that is just waste of resources.

Today, 04:07 PM	#1932
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 37,271	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan No. Just...no. I know being a massive downer is your "thing" but be realistic about it at least. The Russian people have been told that Ukraine represents a threat to Russia and that they're fighting for the very existence of their country. Myths and memories of the Great Patriotic War are very strong.

Today, 04:28 PM	#1933
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 10,413	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan No. Just...no. I know being a massive downer is your "thing" but be realistic about it at least. Err... what he's describing isn't much different from what Russia's actually been doing for some time now, IIRC. That's combined with cannon fodder attackers being reported to be virtually unarmed in their suicide runs so that Ukrainian positions can be located and attacked with artillery.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Today, 04:36 PM	#1934
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 67,171	Originally Posted by Aridas suicide runs so that Ukrainian positions can be located and attacked with artillery. We know what Moscow is trying to do. It seems pretty obvious that at this point they lack the numbers and the skill to actually achieve results that way. Zeno's advance is not a path to victory.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

Today, 09:12 PM	#1935
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,466	Originally Posted by theprestige Zeno's advance is not a path to victory. For either Russia or Ukraine. That's the problem. This war is only over when Moscow says it is. In the meantime, they seem content with 300,000 casualties, 500,000, one million maybe. A half million Russian lives is a sacrifice Putin is willing to make.
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,466	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key