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9th March 2017, 08:30 PM | #1561 |
High Priest of Ed
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Are you kidding? You think Milo Yiannopoulos entertaining a roomful of conservatives for a couple of hours is a greater threat to our way of life and our freedoms than the masked guys running around setting fires, breaking things and bloodying people's faces?
How are you better than what you oppose? |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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9th March 2017, 08:58 PM | #1562 |
Illuminator
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Option 1) puberty hurts
Option 2) burning **** is fun Option 3) to feed an infantile narrative that smashing windows, setting fires, and shouting down speakers is totally progressive, man I don't think I've agreed with many, if any, actual position points Milo has given. I want him to be able to make them, however, for all the reasons put forth in the thread so far. For however enlightened I think my views are, if they can't stand up against mere dissenting opinion then there's something fundamentally wrong with them. The example I keep coming back to is marriage equality. It's something I feel passionate enough about that when I run into someone who is against it I want to list to them all the reasons why I think it's a good/proper/healthy thing and thereby maybe change their mind, and not simply scream "homopobe!" and lob a brick at them. |
10th March 2017, 07:20 AM | #1563 |
Illuminator
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Pepper spray is nothing. Here is how you hold protests:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-so...-idUSKBN16H066 |
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10th March 2017, 10:02 AM | #1564 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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10th March 2017, 11:28 AM | #1565 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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10th March 2017, 11:57 AM | #1566 |
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10th March 2017, 12:20 PM | #1567 |
High Priest of Ed
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I'm pretty confident both Caveman1917 and Milo Yiannopoulos believe their shtick in addition to enjoying whatever anger and frustration they incite in others. If they don't they're not likely to ever admit it, which makes it a distinction without a difference.
My opinion from observation. Your mileage may vary. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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10th March 2017, 12:31 PM | #1568 |
High Priest of Ed
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Not just because they disagree with him, but (according to Caveman1917) Milo Yiannopoulos is a fascist and Fascist ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.
The problem with that distinction is that it fits any political idea and quite a few scientific ideas. Anarchism, climate change, childcare, Obamacare vs Trumpcare, urban planning, farm subsidies...it would be hard to think of any political issue where someone doesn't think an opinion one way or another is threatening to their way of life and their rights. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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10th March 2017, 12:33 PM | #1569 |
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10th March 2017, 12:56 PM | #1570 |
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Coincidentally, the Chicago Tribune had an article about the Nazis trying to march through Skokie Illinois just today.
they were actual fascists, and they got their march and it turned out fine. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...310-story.html |
10th March 2017, 01:17 PM | #1571 |
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10th March 2017, 01:29 PM | #1572 |
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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10th March 2017, 01:38 PM | #1573 |
High Priest of Ed
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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10th March 2017, 07:48 PM | #1574 |
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10th March 2017, 08:27 PM | #1575 |
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
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"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." |
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10th March 2017, 09:02 PM | #1576 |
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No that's not the right question. The right question is, do Christians and Muslims when they demonstrate publically use it to assault minorities and other undesirables? Are these events used to further increase such assaults with the goal of working towards enacting genocide?
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10th March 2017, 11:33 PM | #1577 |
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Well, they are comparable, but dramatically different in motivation. Christianity and Islam are religions that are (at least in theory) about love and tolerance. Fascism is more along the lines of hate and intolerance, setting a de facto adversarial challenge to all comers that would likely be absent in a disagreement with a Priest or Imam.
The much larger issue is creating a breathalyzer controlled laptop. It's unnerving to see posts that one does not recall making, and there was evidently a comprehension issue on my part with caveman1917's query. I'll just sit quietly over here... |
10th March 2017, 11:47 PM | #1578 |
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The marriage analogy is a good one, but that is a discussion that can (and should) be held rationally. Fascism by its nature is a naked threat to...well, everyone except fascists. Can't really wax metaphysical with an ethnic cleansing advocate who spouts Nazi propaganda; the battle lines are drawn and there is basically nothing left to discuss rationally, hence the ordinarily unwarranted jump to...a more visceral show of disagreement.
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11th March 2017, 07:18 AM | #1579 |
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Accomplishing what, exactly? In specific terms can you say what good this actually does, apart from giving some people an unearned sense of self-righteousness? Not trying to be flippant, but in neither this nor the 'punch a Nazi' thread has anyone shown what property destruction or physical assault actually accomplishes toward stopping 'fascism'. For the sake of argument let's grant the disputed point that the targets are even fascists in the first place : do you honestly believe that silencing or socking someone who genuinely wants to exterminate the 'mud people' will dissuade them in any way? They really want to wipe out all of <group X> from the face of the earth, so viscous is their ideology. But then suddenly their rally is disrupted by a gaggle of privileged wankers breaking random people's stuff - are they going to stop and think "Oh, guess we'll have to grudgingly live in harmony with all mankind now. Shoot, and I so wanted a Holocaust this Christmas. " And that's not even touching on : 1) It hasn't been shown that these are actually close-minded, irredeemable, by Hoyle "fascists". 2) You don't need to be able to discuss higher concepts to get to the issue of basic humanity with anyone- doesn't mean you'll succeed or win them over, but even a mild nudge in the direction of decency with 1 person out of 10 is more than having them all double down because you just clocked them. 3) Abandoning the rule of law makes you (generic you) the threat to Democracy, not the odious talking head giving a speech 4) Who gave you (again, generic) to right to decide when someone's speech has crossed the line into 'no point in talking, time to burn stuff'? 5) You've now show just about any bigoted group in the country that all they need to do to silence pro-choice, or atheist, or anti-Trump gatherings is threaten to **** up a Starbucks if these deeply anti-American radicals are allowed to get together and talk And now to be intentionally flippant : you know who else thought it was a good idea to use physical violence and intimidation against groups whom they opposed? The SA. |
11th March 2017, 03:02 PM | #1580 |
High Priest of Ed
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What group is Milo Yiannopoulos working towards enacting genocide on?
You want to be a violent thug and you rationalize it by saying you only want to be a violent thug with "bad people" who deserve it. Who fits the bill? Fascists! When you say "fascists" we all picture Nazis goose stepping around, fantasizing about building extermination camps and creating their all-powerful police state, and it's easy to think maybe throwing a punch or a brick against those guys is not such a bad thing, right? We've all grown up where "Nazi" is the epitome of evil, and they are very evil, but we've seen your definition of "fascist" to be so loose and all encompassing that it seems to include anyone who isn't an anarchist who is openly opposing the existence of nation-states. We really have two issues here. First, it's not really okay to get your way by violence, even if you're only violent with bad people. It doesn't win the argument unless someone uses enough violence to become as ban an oppressor as they fear their victim might become. The second issue is I think you're being disingenuous about who you're claiming to be acceptable targets. I really don't think it's just the wannabe Nazi, I think you're just going to apply that label wherever and whenever you want to use violence. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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11th March 2017, 03:44 PM | #1581 |
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It's not a good analogy. The better analogy would be, if someone was attacking homosexuals (aka expressing "dissenting opinion"[*]) and people then choose to defend themselves from these attackers.
* Don't be misled by this propagandistic language of "dissenting opinion" or "just words" or BS like that. The video footage of that guy who ended up pissing himself clearly shows him dropping his weapon (wooden stick) so as to choke-hold a black person so that his fascist buddies can beat him up easily. Just last year in a town close to where I live in Belgium some fascists had a demonstration and afterwards beat a homeless person to death. Several "undesirable" people were attacked in the margin of Milo's event in Berkeley. Then there is the IWW member in Seattle who got shot, and the list goes on - and that's only what gets reported. The language of "just dissenting opinion" and "they shut us down only because they disagree with us" and things like that is nothing more than far-right propaganda and has practically nothing to do with reality on the ground. There's no such thing as a peaceful fascist assembly, if they can't get away with attacking untermenschen during their demonstration itself - for example due to having too much cops around them - they'll do it afterwards in small groups in the back alleys away from peering eyes. To think that fascists have demonstrations because they want to peacefully express a "dissenting opinion" is ignorant to the extreme. Fascist isn't a slur, it's a term with a meaning. |
11th March 2017, 03:56 PM | #1582 |
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11th March 2017, 07:02 PM | #1583 |
High Priest of Ed
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You are the leading expert on your own opinions, so if you have a definition of "fascist" that you use that is different from what I described, please share it. If you want to be tedious and demand "evidence" of your own thought processes, I'll point to your disciplinary history on this board before you learned to stop calling everyone who disagreed with you a fascist.
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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11th March 2017, 07:25 PM | #1584 |
High Priest of Ed
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The masked people who were breaking things, bloodying faces and intimidating people so Milo Yiannopoulos couldn't speak in Berkeley were not doing so because some Trump supporter was an asshat in the Great Lakes area five weeks later.
Violence in response to violence or defence from violence isn't necessarily bad. What we're talking about here is violence as a first choice to express your opinion or to prevent someone you disagree with from expressing theirs. Your response here is another tu quoque argument. It's "They do it so we do it too", but "they" are not very well defined and, again, you're making yourself as bad as they are. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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11th March 2017, 07:30 PM | #1585 |
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11th March 2017, 08:22 PM | #1586 |
Philosopher
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11th March 2017, 10:17 PM | #1587 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Lotsa thoughts here. Will try to keep replies brief:
You ask what is accomplished. What is accomplished by dancing, or art? Expression, right? A reaction to the world around you. I don't think every action need have a practical payoff.
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11th March 2017, 10:40 PM | #1588 |
Penultimate Amazing
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12th March 2017, 08:45 AM | #1589 |
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12th March 2017, 03:23 PM | #1590 |
Penultimate Amazing
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This is a continuation of justification for breaking windows? Assuming so...
The justification spelled out, as best I comprehend.. If somebody (X) verbally attacks a class of people, the organization that hosts X, and anyone in the general vicinity, is subject to having their windows broken, tough luck. |
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12th March 2017, 08:51 PM | #1591 |
Penultimate Amazing
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12th March 2017, 09:18 PM | #1592 |
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So if that homeless guy had ridiculed them then they wouldn't have beaten him to death? If those numerous refugees had only ridiculed them then they wouldn't have been attacked? How exactly is this ridicule thing supposed to work?
So if I'm getting this straight, rearranging a window constitutes "violence" and rearranging people constitutes "discourse", and presumably this depends on whether it's a fascist doing it or a leftist. Liberal ethics... |
12th March 2017, 09:45 PM | #1593 |
Penultimate Amazing
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In the bigger picture, not being taken seriously is disempowering. Pretty obviously not the move during live conflict.
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12th March 2017, 10:04 PM | #1594 |
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It can be. For example I really liked this one. It depends on the situation, and with respect to fascists it isn't all that effective anyway. But then I'm all for ridiculing them for pissing their pants after their asses handed back to them, or for managing to pepper-spray themselves, etc.
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12th March 2017, 10:20 PM | #1595 |
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So you have now two claims for which to provide evidence.
1. That my definition of "fascist" includes anyone who isn't an anarchist who is openly opposing the existence of nation-states. 2. I call(ed) everyone who disagreed with me a fascist. I suggest you get to it rather than adding more unsupported claims each post. |
13th March 2017, 05:43 AM | #1596 |
High Priest of Ed
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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13th March 2017, 05:48 AM | #1597 |
High Priest of Ed
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Has anyone spoken against self-defense?
You're not getting it straight, then. No. The point is it doesn't depend on if it's a fascist or leftist doing it. Being a violent thug makes you a violent thug regardless of your politics. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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13th March 2017, 06:01 AM | #1598 |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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13th March 2017, 08:39 AM | #1599 |
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What makes them incomparable for this situation?
In all cases, facsism/islam/christianity threaten the ideals and ways of life of other people. Why does fascism get special pleading? What justifies the preemptive use of violence to silence the beliefs of one and not the others, if the justification for that violence is that it threatens the ideals and ways of life of other people? |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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13th March 2017, 08:40 AM | #1600 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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