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Old 27th February 2017, 06:52 PM   #1361
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Are you suggesting that the earth was designed and engineered?




Checkmate, atheists.

Edit to add : since we're clearly in Fantasy Land again ...

Last edited by Joe Random; 27th February 2017 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 27th February 2017, 08:39 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. He says some things about homosexuals that some people find offensive. Not the same thing.
You can deny it all you want, but you aren't very convincing.
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:45 AM   #1363
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I've already explained this to you: being able to objectively determine that an object has a property is not the same as being able to objectively determine the "purpose" of an object. The Earth is round, therefor the purpose of the Earth is to be round?
When a mob breaks windows, throws rocks and burns cars, the "purpose" is to use fear to motivate decision makers to do what the mob wants .

Because thuggery is so preferable to democracy?
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Old 28th February 2017, 06:28 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
When a mob breaks windows, throws rocks and burns cars, the "purpose" is to use fear to motivate decision makers to do what the mob wants .

Because thuggery is so preferable to democracy?
Only when celebrating sports victories. When one is angry about injustice it one is held to a much higher standard than when one is celebrating a sports victory/defeat.

Terrorist organizations like the Sons of Liberty need to be put down hard, any american would agree.
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Old 28th February 2017, 08:25 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only when celebrating sports victories. When one is angry about injustice it one is held to a much higher standard than when one is celebrating a sports victory/defeat.
Whose bias is it that allows sports related thuggery to be tolerated?

Isn't it true that the thugs who start riots after sports events are also related to hard right-wing, racist politics?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Terrorist organizations like the Sons of Liberty need to be put down hard, any american would agree.
They didn't ask me, so I didn't get a chance to weigh in. How about the Ku Klux Klan? Should we tolerate cross burnings because we tolerate sports riots?
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Old 28th February 2017, 08:36 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
They didn't ask me, so I didn't get a chance to weigh in. How about the Ku Klux Klan? Should we tolerate cross burnings because we tolerate sports riots?
You do tolerate cross burnings. There is no consequence for the KKK to hold a cross burning, unless they do it on someone's lawn as a direct threat.
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Old 28th February 2017, 08:49 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Obviously.



God exists.



You haven't a right to deny that God exists. Or, since you seem to like dramatic use of language, you haven't a right to destroy my belief that God exists.
I own two cars! And God does exist and you are certainly free to deny that God exists and even to try to destroy my belief that God exists, but if you try to do that by trying to wreck my car, you will go to jail.

Fantastic!
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Old 28th February 2017, 08:51 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You do tolerate cross burnings. There is no consequence for the KKK to hold a cross burning, unless they do it on someone's lawn as a direct threat.
Well there is that pesky First amendment for ya
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:09 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You do tolerate cross burnings. There is no consequence for the KKK to hold a cross burning, unless they do it on someone's lawn as a direct threat.
Yeah well burning stuff on other people's property is already illegal, as are threats of violence.


But how about cross burning on your own lawn? And not as a threat? Why would that be not tolerated?
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:14 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You do tolerate cross burnings. There is no consequence for the KKK to hold a cross burning, unless they do it on someone's lawn as a direct threat.
It was the burning on someone's lawn that I was referring to.

If you like violent political protest, what's the plan for if the guys you disagree with have a greater capacity for violence than the guys you agree with? How do you think that should work out?
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:23 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It was the burning on someone's lawn that I was referring to.

If you like violent political protest, what's the plan for if the guys you disagree with have a greater capacity for violence than the guys you agree with? How do you think that should work out?
God's with us. How can we lose?
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:24 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You do tolerate cross burnings. There is no consequence for the KKK to hold a cross burning, unless they do it on someone's lawn as a direct threat.
We also tolerate people smashing up their own cars on their own property, if that's what they want to do.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We also tolerate people smashing up their own cars on their own property, if that's what they want to do.
Strange, ain't it? On the one hand you have posters claiming that your property isn't your own (it's a belief system!) when someone else wants to smash it with righteous fury, and on the other you have here an implication that you can't even smash your own stuff if, in another context, it could be viewed as a threat of violence.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:45 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It was the burning on someone's lawn that I was referring to.

If you like violent political protest, what's the plan for if the guys you disagree with have a greater capacity for violence than the guys you agree with? How do you think that should work out?
The answer I usually get is "that won't happen these people have no power and no numbers. They are a dying breed." And on and on, the words white tears get thrown about, then the person just goes on that it is a foregone conclusion that violence will turn out in favor of the "his guys".

Ignoring for a moment the fact this is simply not the case.

It is completly hypocritical. If these people are nothing then by your own "punch up not down" logic you are the bad guy. If they are in such a state that they are out manned and out gunned by people who tend to shun violence and arming themselves, then they really are to be pitied.

But like all sjw logic it is completely flawed. They cannot be so ineffectual that violent conflict is a sure win, yet powerful enough to warrent physical violence just for speaking.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:49 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only when celebrating sports victories. When one is angry about injustice it one is held to a much higher standard than when one is celebrating a sports victory/defeat.

Terrorist organizations like the Sons of Liberty need to be put down hard, any american would agree.
Why do you keep repeating "sports get away with riots" when I have clearly explained hooliganisim and the great lengths that ate gone to to curb it?

It's a very interesting subject that has many films, documentaries etc. But be warned they will not agree with your current view. I hope that doesn't get me punched as you seem to believe violence is an acceptable response to speech that goes against your world view.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:54 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Whose bias is it that allows sports related thuggery to be tolerated?
No one cares or seriously condemns much more serious riots than the ones at Berkeley. You will never see colege sports cancled for any thing as unimportant as a riot.
Quote:
Isn't it true that the thugs who start riots after sports events are also related to hard right-wing, racist politics?
Not likely. They are likely drunk young men looking for some violent fun just like the Pumpkin Riots. At least that got the pumpkin festival canceled for ever.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:58 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Why do you keep repeating "sports get away with riots" when I have clearly explained hooliganisim and the great lengths that ate gone to to curb it?
Because no one tries to blame all sports lovers as being equal to hooligans like they do when some hooligans crash a protest. It is almost as if there is a double standard about not holding white people accountable for their riots, unless they are left wing.
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:10 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because no one tries to blame all sports lovers as being equal to hooligans like they do when some hooligans crash a protest. It is almost as if there is a double standard about not holding white people accountable for their riots, unless they are left wing.
The desperate insistence in derailing the discussion by appeal to tu quoque.

Say, ponderingturtle, if we all condemn the rioters in 2014 at the "pumpkin" riot can we please get back to the subject??

I unreservedly condemn the 2014 Pumpkin rioters, the White Sports Lover riots, and all other White people who riot.

Thank goodness that is done, looking forward to you condemning the thugs at Berkeley, because you would not want to be a hypocrite, right?
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:55 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No.
But the window was designed and engineered, would you agree?
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:00 AM   #1380
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But the window was designed and engineered, would you agree?
It's pretty amazing that the conversation has gotten to where it is.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:02 AM   #1381
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's pretty amazing that the conversation has gotten to where it is.
Does caveman's view constitute silopsism? Honestly,I get confused whenever we venture into "you can't prove that existence exists for really reals" territory.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:25 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But the window was designed and engineered, would you agree?
Sure. Before you go further with your argument, let me tell you about the posters in my living room They are behind glass windows in frames. My intended function for these glass windows is to keep the posters flat and in good condition, as well as being esthetic. Nothing about any blocking of the flow of air.

Similarly, there are some trains at my company where the company intends for them to have the function of providing spare parts. Nothing in their intended function about riding around on tracks bringing passengers around - even though that is what you might erroneously have deduced from looking at their design and engineering.

There is no such thing as an objectively determinable purpose. You can objectively determine that an object can have a function, the train can have the function of riding around on tracks, it can also have the function of providing spare parts, both of these can be objectively determined. What you can't determine is which function is its intended function (ie its "purpose") - that just depends on who you ask.

You're moving from a circular argument based on giving special consideration to the intention of the person you call the "owner" to giving special consideration to the intention of the person you call the "designer" or "engineer". It won't help your argument though.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:33 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Does caveman's view constitute silopsism?
No.

Quote:
Honestly,I get confused whenever we venture into "you can't prove that existence exists for really reals" territory.
We didn't venture there, it just looks like that because you're incapable of distinguishing your belief system from reality. The window exists (or rather the molecules which make up the window exist) but whether the window is the property of person A or person B is a belief.
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:03 PM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Does caveman's view constitute silopsism?
It sure is some form of sophism.
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:04 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
We didn't venture there, it just looks like that because you're incapable of distinguishing your belief system from reality. The window exists (or rather the molecules which make up the window exist) but whether the window is the property of person A or person B is a belief.
And what relevance does this have? By your silly logic, money is a belief system as well, but we still treat it as though it has value. That's not confusing reality with belief. The belief has real-world consequences. The distinction you're trying to make, as I've told you before, is irrelevant.

Now stop derailing the thread with this nonsense.
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:24 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No one cares or seriously condemns much more serious riots than the ones at Berkeley. You will never see colege sports cancled for any thing as unimportant as a riot.
My opinion is that sports hooliganism is even less justifiable than political hooliganism. At least the political hooliganism have a purpose in mind.

What is your opinion? Do you think rioting for political reasons is justified? Do you think it matters if peaceful and democratic methods are available? If you think smashing windows and burning things is okay to stop a political speaker you don't like, why not organize gangs to trash the offices of political parties you oppose?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not likely. They are likely drunk young men looking for some violent fun just like the Pumpkin Riots. At least that got the pumpkin festival canceled for ever.
Here are a few articles to introduce you to the topic:

http://balticworlds.com/conceived-football-hooliganism/

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/i...ier-league-181

http://www.dw.com/en/crusaders-in-th...ras/a-19330835
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:26 PM   #1387
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Ooh! Can't miss this one:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1000953.html
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:26 PM   #1388
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wait... does he think we don't know what freight trains are?

I'll be damned.
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:29 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
My opinion is that sports hooliganism is even less justifiable than political hooliganism. At least the political hooliganism have a purpose in mind.

What is your opinion? Do you think rioting for political reasons is justified? Do you think it matters if peaceful and democratic methods are available? If you think smashing windows and burning things is okay to stop a political speaker you don't like, why not organize gangs to trash the offices of political parties you oppose?
No I don't think it is ok, why is using the actions of hooligans acceptable to attack those who's political actions they are using as justification?


Quote:
Got anything on american sports or pumpkin riots? In america sports riots are viewed as apolitical so that when a college riots over their team it isn't taken to mean anything. Yet a much smaller riot tied to a protest of a truly detestable human being is vitally important and telling about people who don't like sexist racists.
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:33 PM   #1390
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Here is an article about how acceptable sports riots are on college campuses in the US.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/opinion...f0b3ab1e8.html

Penn state needs to close down their toxic football program. They already were fine with using it as a hunting ground for a child rapist and they have these constant riots, shut it down!
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:43 PM   #1391
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here is an article about how acceptable sports riots are on college campuses in the US.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/opinion...f0b3ab1e8.html

Penn state needs to close down their toxic football program. They already were fine with using it as a hunting ground for a child rapist and they have these constant riots, shut it down!
Look, the posters HERE seem to agree that they're not acceptable. How about we move back on topic?
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:00 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Penn state needs to close down their toxic football program. They already were fine with using it as a hunting ground for a child rapist and they have these constant riots, shut it down!
I agree.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:05 PM   #1393
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Look, the posters HERE seem to agree that they're not acceptable. How about we move back on topic?
And so all football fans need to explain why they find this acceptable, just like people who think being a sexist and racist is a bad reason to speak at a college need to explain how those riots were acceptable. It is simply taking the argument used here and using it more broadly.

Liberals are scum for because of this riot, but anyone who watches college football is super scum for the regular sports riots. Simple and direct logic.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:06 PM   #1394
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
I agree.
And that will get you lynched in state college.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:09 PM   #1395
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that will get you lynched in state college.
Maybe things would be better if university students/fans didn't resort to violence when people state things they disagree with, huh?
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:13 PM   #1396
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Sure. Before you go further with your argument, let me tell you about the posters in my living room They are behind glass windows in frames. My intended function for these glass windows is to keep the posters flat and in good condition, as well as being esthetic. Nothing about any blocking of the flow of air.

Similarly, there are some trains at my company where the company intends for them to have the function of providing spare parts. Nothing in their intended function about riding around on tracks bringing passengers around - even though that is what you might erroneously have deduced from looking at their design and engineering.

There is no such thing as an objectively determinable purpose. You can objectively determine that an object can have a function, the train can have the function of riding around on tracks, it can also have the function of providing spare parts, both of these can be objectively determined. What you can't determine is which function is its intended function (ie its "purpose") - that just depends on who you ask.

You're moving from a circular argument based on giving special consideration to the intention of the person you call the "owner" to giving special consideration to the intention of the person you call the "designer" or "engineer". It won't help your argument though.
It's so nice to know that you can read minds. It's unfortunate that you don't read very well.

That said...

Given that a window has a designer, would you agree that the designer of the window has designed it for a purpose?

Note that I've said nothing whatsoever about an objectively determined purpose - that's a pointless discussion altogether. All I'm asking at the moment is whether the designer of the object designed it for a purpose.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:14 PM   #1397
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It sure is some form of sophism.
Most of those isms give me headaches. This doesn't appear to be an exception.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:15 PM   #1398
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And so all football fans need to explain why they find this acceptable, just like people who think being a sexist and racist is a bad reason to speak at a college need to explain how those riots were acceptable. It is simply taking the argument used here and using it more broadly.

Liberals are scum for because of this riot, but anyone who watches college football is super scum for the regular sports riots. Simple and direct logic.
How about you address something that someone actually said here instead of your army of undead strawmen?
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:36 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Maybe things would be better if university students/fans didn't resort to violence when people state things they disagree with, huh?
Sporters really are a problem.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:38 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How about you address something that someone actually said here instead of your army of undead strawmen?
Using these thugs to discredit liberals is the entire point of this thread. How dare people question the rights golden boy Milo? If you discredit an entire group of people by a small group of troublemakers then anyone who likes football needs to account for these constant riots in college football.
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