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Old 28th February 2017, 01:40 PM   #1401
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Whose bias is it that allows sports related thuggery to be tolerated?

Isn't it true that the thugs who start riots after sports events are also related to hard right-wing, racist politics?
I am not sure that's so clear. It's hard to be too racist when your teams have a large African-American makeup. I think that it is garden-variety stupidity more than racist stupidity.

But it would be nice to have facts at hand, and I don't.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:50 PM   #1402
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sporters really are a problem.
I agree. They're bad, just like people who break **** and threaten violence when someone they don't like is allowed to speak.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:54 PM   #1403
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
I agree. They're bad, just like people who break **** and threaten violence when someone they don't like is allowed to speak.
I am still waiting for white leaders to address the perverse love of pumpkins that drove the pumpkin riots. But they are constantly silent.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:06 PM   #1404
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No I don't think it is ok, why is using the actions of hooligans acceptable to attack those who's political actions they are using as justification?
No, I just attack the people who think rioting is okay. This is true regardless of where you are on the political spectrum.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
... vitally important and telling about people who don't like sexist racists.
I don't like sexist racists either. I think protesting this guy would have been entirely appropriate. It's getting violent and destroying stuff that I'm against.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:08 PM   #1405
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am still waiting for white leaders to address the perverse love of pumpkins that drove the pumpkin riots. But they are constantly silent.
You're waiting? What action are you delaying?
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:18 PM   #1406
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because no one tries to blame all sports lovers as being equal to hooligans like they do when some hooligans crash a protest. It is almost as if there is a double standard about not holding white people accountable for their riots, unless they are left wing.
Actually in areas where it happens, pepole tend to stereotype fans of certain teams as hooligans, even going so far as to assume a geographical connection with hooliganisim.

Did you ever actually read up on it or are you assuming that no one else knows about this?
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:24 PM   #1407
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Using these thugs to discredit liberals is the entire point of this thread. How dare people question the rights golden boy Milo? If you discredit an entire group of people by a small group of troublemakers then anyone who likes football needs to account for these constant riots in college football.
You are not arguing anyone's points. We all hate Milo and most are pretty vocal about that fact.

Doesn't it feel hollow to just regurgitate answers to points no one here is magnificent.

Btw I hate sports, you trying to get a rise by insulting them isn't gonna work.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:25 PM   #1408
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am still waiting for white leaders to address the perverse love of pumpkins that drove the pumpkin riots. But they are constantly silent.
Going back to this tired thing because you sports rants are seeming silly even to yourself.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:30 PM   #1409
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's so nice to know that you can read minds. It's unfortunate that you don't read very well.

That said...

Given that a window has a designer, would you agree that the designer of the window has designed it for a purpose?

Note that I've said nothing whatsoever about an objectively determined purpose - that's a pointless discussion altogether. All I'm asking at the moment is whether the designer of the object designed it for a purpose.
Interesting juxtaposition. The following is my post you responded to with this tangent, is it not? I've highlighted a relevant part.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I've already explained this to you: being able to objectively determine that an object has a property is not the same as being able to objectively determine the "purpose" of an object. The Earth is round, therefor the purpose of the Earth is to be round?
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:35 PM   #1410
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Most of those isms give me headaches. This doesn't appear to be an exception.
It isn't sophism either.

Last edited by caveman1917; 28th February 2017 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:37 PM   #1411
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Using these thugs to discredit liberals is the entire point of this thread. How dare people question the rights golden boy Milo? If you discredit an entire group of people by a small group of troublemakers then anyone who likes football needs to account for these constant riots in college football.
You don't seem to get that it's possible to despise Milo as a person, but still defend his right to speak and make his opinions heard.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:50 PM   #1412
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You don't seem to get that it's possible to despise Milo as a person, but still defend his right to speak and make his opinions heard.

QFT.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:54 PM   #1413
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You don't seem to get that it's possible to despise Milo as a person, but still defend his right to speak and make his opinions heard.
Is the whole playing dumb tactic of the regressive left. Usually combined with a healthy dose of "I know what I'm talking about". Leaving the only choice as pointing out their lack of knowledge, then they claim you are attacking them, and then in their mind they win.

Sad really. The goal isn't to change opinion but to feel attacked.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:58 PM   #1414
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Interesting juxtaposition. The following is my post you responded to with this tangent, is it not? I've highlighted a relevant part.
You appear to have missed an aspect of my post: I am not trying to establish whether or not an "objective" purpose exists.

I am asking you whether the designer of the object has designed it for a purpose. Are you panning to answer that question?
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:05 PM   #1415
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You appear to have missed an aspect of my post: I am not trying to establish whether or not an "objective" purpose exists.
Then what does your tangent have to do with my post it was in reply to?

Quote:
I am asking you whether the designer of the object has designed it for a purpose. Are you panning to answer that question?
Not until you give a reason why it's relevant.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:09 PM   #1416
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I am not sure that's so clear. It's hard to be too racist when your teams have a large African-American makeup.
You've obviously never listened to sports radio

But really, it does seem to me that sports riots, in the US, are more related to youthful stupidity than to any sort of politics.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:30 PM   #1417
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
You've obviously never listened to sports radio

But really, it does seem to me that sports riots, in the US, are more related to youthful stupidity than to any sort of politics.
Fair enough, I don't listen to sports radio.

But I agree with your second sentence. Youthful stupidity certainly explains a lot of my much earlier life.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:40 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Then what does your tangent have to do with my post it was in reply to?



Not until you give a reason why it's relevant.
It's relevant because you jumped from A to Tau.

You've posited that the purpose of an object is whatever anybody wants it to be, and that ownership is a fluid belief system. So if a person owns a bank that has a window, their claim to the window is no less legitimate than the "claim" of the protester who throws a brick through it. You've further claimed that the window and the pile of broken glass are both legitimate since it was the protester's purpose that was most recent.

I'm trying to actually take this step by step and figure out how you jumped to a different universe with this.

So. We've established that the window was designed and engineered.

Did the designer of the window design the window for a purpose?
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:02 PM   #1419
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Using these thugs to discredit liberals is the entire point of this thread.
Take it up with the OP. I don't believe that, and almost no one in this thread believes that, if any. Again, either discuss the issue and the actual posts of others, or leave.
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:23 PM   #1420
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's relevant because you jumped from A to Tau.
No, quite the opposite.

Quote:
You've posited that the purpose of an object is whatever anybody wants it to be
Not exactly, more that an object doesn't have a purpose.

Quote:
and that ownership is a fluid belief system.
I have no idea what a "fluid" belief system is supposed to be, so I'm quite sure I didn't posit that.

Quote:
So if a person owns a bank that has a window, their claim to the window is no less legitimate than the "claim" of the protester who throws a brick through it.
No.

Quote:
You've further claimed that the window and the pile of broken glass are both legitimate since it was the protester's purpose that was most recent.
I've made no such claim. What the hell does it even mean for a window to be legitimate?

Quote:
I'm trying to actually take this step by step and figure out how you jumped to a different universe with this.
I didn't jump anywhere. That would be you lot.

Quote:
So. We've established that the window was designed and engineered.

Did the designer of the window design the window for a purpose?
Probably. Most likely their purpose in designing the window was so as to keep their job as window designer and make some money.
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:29 PM   #1421
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Can everyone just agree that Sports riots are absolutely the worst and that ponderingturtles yeoman efforts have convinced everyone of that?

Well done pondering turtle!
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:30 PM   #1422
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am still waiting for white leaders to address the perverse love of pumpkins that drove the pumpkin riots. But they are constantly silent.
ARGGH! i forgot the Pumpkins too!

I hate whitey's perverse of pumpkins too!

Well shown, PT.

Now back to Berkely?
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:42 PM   #1423
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not exactly, more that an object doesn't have a purpose.
Do you believe that your computer serves no purpose?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Probably. Most likely their purpose in designing the window was so as to keep their job as window designer and make some money.
Am I clear in understanding that you believe the person who designed the window designed it for the sole purpose of making money?

Do you also believe that the person who designed your keyboard designed it solely to make money, and that there is no other intended purpose involved?
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:59 PM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you believe that your computer serves no purpose?
My computer has no purpose indeed.

Do you believe objects have a purpose? If so, that train being used for spare parts, what is its purpose? Suppose some homeless person is using it for shelter at night. What then, is its purpose to be a shelter for a homeless person? What is its true purpose, which one is it?

Quote:
Am I clear in understanding that you believe the person who designed the window designed it for the sole purpose of making money?

Do you also believe that the person who designed your keyboard designed it solely to make money, and that there is no other intended purpose involved?
You know what, why don't you answer your own questions? Tell us, for what purpose did the window designer design the window, or the keyboard designer design the keyboard?
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:12 PM   #1425
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
My computer has no purpose indeed.
I assume you have no objection to someone smashing it with a hammer then?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You know what, why don't you answer your own questions? Tell us, for what purpose did the window designer design the window, or the keyboard designer design the keyboard?
The purpose for which the window was designed is to be a window - to let light into a room without exposing the room to the elements.

The purpose for which the keyboard was designed is to allow a human to translate verbal thoughts into written words for other people to consume.

Do you disagree with those statements?
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Old 28th February 2017, 07:48 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I assume you have no objection to someone smashing it with a hammer then?



The purpose for which the window was designed is to be a window - to let light into a room without exposing the room to the elements.

The purpose for which the keyboard was designed is to allow a human to translate verbal thoughts into written words for other people to consume.

Do you disagree with those statements?
I'm not sure the issue ought to be the function of windows so much as the rights of property owners. If it's my window and I want to break it, no problem. If it's your window and you don't want it broken but I do so anyway because someone I don't like is speaking at a third venue, then there's an issue.

So, let's not talk about what windows are for. Let's talk about the rights of property owners.
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Old 28th February 2017, 08:11 PM   #1427
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm not sure the issue ought to be the function of windows so much as the rights of property owners. If it's my window and I want to break it, no problem. If it's your window and you don't want it broken but I do so anyway because someone I don't like is speaking at a third venue, then there's an issue.

So, let's not talk about what windows are for. Let's talk about the rights of property owners.
Try to keep up: There's no such thing as property, so there's no such thing as property owners, and certainly no such thing as property rights. If an anarchist wants to rearrange "your" window, that's as much of a social good as anything else that might be done with it.

And that's why there's nothing objectionable about asshats destroying the "property" of innocent bystanders, in a fit of pique over speech they don't like.

/caveman
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:02 PM   #1428
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Try to keep up: There's no such thing as property, so there's no such thing as property owners, and certainly no such thing as property rights. If an anarchist wants to rearrange "your" window, that's as much of a social good as anything else that might be done with it.

And that's why there's nothing objectionable about asshats destroying the "property" of innocent bystanders, in a fit of pique over speech they don't like.

/caveman
Sure, were I to give him this claim, then we'd be done. But giving him this claim is (1) asinine and (2) doesn't really justify talk about functions of artifacts.

It doesn't matter what an artifact is for. Either the owner gets to determine what is done with it (within certain limits) or he does not. The intended function is really not that relevant.

And I say this as a person who has spent an unreasonable amount of time thinking about the functions of stuff around us.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:10 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure, were I to give him this claim, then we'd be done. But giving him this claim is (1) asinine and (2) doesn't really justify talk about functions of artifacts.

It doesn't matter what an artifact is for. Either the owner gets to determine what is done with it (within certain limits) or he does not. The intended function is really not that relevant.

And I say this as a person who has spent an unreasonable amount of time thinking about the functions of stuff around us.
I'm saying you're pretty far down the rabbit hole but it's not too late to climb back out.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:41 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure, were I to give him this claim, then we'd be done. But giving him this claim is (1) asinine
No less asinine than giving someone the claim that deities may not exist.

Quote:
Either the owner gets to determine what is done with it (within certain limits) or he does not.
Don't forget to distinguish between "someone owns this object" and "this specific person owns this object".

Let P be the set of persons, and O the set of objects. Let PROP be a map P -> O denoting who owns what. Even if someone were to accept that property exists ("the owner gets to determine what is done with it" in your statement above) then it still doesn't follow that they have to accept your specific PROP. With |P| being 7e9 and |O| being, let's say, 7e11 that makes about 5e21 possible PROPs. And that's even a serious underestimation, given that an object could be owned by multiple persons, or that there might exist distinct types of property.

Or in terms of the religion analogy, even if I were to give you the claim that a deity exists that doesn't mean that I have to give you the claim that a specific deity exists as opposed to any number of other possible deities.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:05 AM   #1431
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Can you provide this evidence?

I'm especially interested in evidence that antifa isn't leftist. After all, anyone bothering to do even the most basic reading on anti-fascism (such as its wikipedia article) will quickly find that it is distinctly leftist. One could even say that anti-fascism is a distinguishing feature of the broad left (anarchists, communists, socialists & social-democrats) as opposed to the broad right which does not feature it (liberals, conservatives, nationalists).
[/quote]

Sorry for the delayed response.

Much of the antifa folks are actually anarchists. I don't have time to dig up sources. But I have personal experience with this through music scenes. The anarchist folks tend to have social justice views that are consistent with the left, but they are also literally against government, which, if anything, is more consistent with far-right, anarcho-capitalist libertarians. From a policy perspective, however, they are distinctly neither left nor right, as no ideal they may advocate is even conceivable as policy absent government.
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:13 AM   #1432
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No less asinine than giving someone the claim that deities may not exist.



Don't forget to distinguish between "someone owns this object" and "this specific person owns this object".

Let P be the set of persons, and O the set of objects. Let PROP be a map P -> O denoting who owns what. Even if someone were to accept that property exists ("the owner gets to determine what is done with it" in your statement above) then it still doesn't follow that they have to accept your specific PROP. With |P| being 7e9 and |O| being, let's say, 7e11 that makes about 5e21 possible PROPs. And that's even a serious underestimation, given that an object could be owned by multiple persons, or that there might exist distinct types of property.

Or in terms of the religion analogy, even if I were to give you the claim that a deity exists that doesn't mean that I have to give you the claim that a specific deity exists as opposed to any number of other possible deities.
The shop owner pays for the glass to be installed as a window. It takes willful ignorance to doubt that he now owns that window.

Look, if you really want to pretend that you don't get the convention of property ownership, feel free, but don't expect others to treat intentional confusion as insight.
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:16 AM   #1433
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The shop owner pays for the glass to be installed as a window. It takes willful ignorance to doubt that he now owns that window.

Look, if you really want to pretend that you don't get the convention of property ownership, feel free, but don't expect others to treat intentional confusion as insight.
You think your name is "Bob"? Pfft! It's just a belief system, man!
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:43 AM   #1434
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caveman1917:

In the example of the ownership of the window, everyone from the glass manufacturer to the end owner have agreed to exchange labor and materials in exchange for cash. They have all willingly agreed to these terms according to their agreed upon 'belief systems'. You, on the other hand, have introduced a different 'belief system' that ignores their arrangement. I've asked you a couple times earlier:

Do you therefore believe, as you say, that anyone can unilaterally enforce their belief system on others without their consent?
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:19 AM   #1435
phiwum
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
caveman1917:

In the example of the ownership of the window, everyone from the glass manufacturer to the end owner have agreed to exchange labor and materials in exchange for cash. They have all willingly agreed to these terms according to their agreed upon 'belief systems'. You, on the other hand, have introduced a different 'belief system' that ignores their arrangement. I've asked you a couple times earlier:

Do you therefore believe, as you say, that anyone can unilaterally enforce their belief system on others without their consent?
Good question, by and large, but if I may edit it slightly:

Do you therefore believe, as you say, that anyone has a fundamental right to unilaterally enforce their belief system on others without their consent?

It's obvious that anyone with the power to do so can do so, but that's not what you meant.
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:20 AM   #1436
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You think your name is "Bob"? Pfft! It's just a belief system, man!
Wait. I didn't think my name was Bob. ****. Was I wrong?
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:37 AM   #1437
Thermal
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Good question, by and large, but if I may edit it slightly:

Do you therefore believe, as you say, that anyone has a fundamental right to unilaterally enforce their belief system on others without their consent?

It's obvious that anyone with the power to do so can do so, but that's not what you meant.
You are quite correct, and in a rational argument your edit is much more appropriate. But the caveman insists that the concept of private property et al is only part of a 'belief system', and that he has another that he can impose on others. The follow-ups by using 'beliefs' as opposed to fundamental rights promise to be a whale of a lot of fun.
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:51 AM   #1438
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Wait. I didn't think my name was Bob. ****. Was I wrong?
Depends what you want to believe.
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Old 1st March 2017, 09:29 AM   #1439
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
The answer I usually get is "that won't happen these people have no power and no numbers. They are a dying breed." And on and on, the words white tears get thrown about, then the person just goes on that it is a foregone conclusion that violence will turn out in favor of the "his guys".

Ignoring for a moment the fact this is simply not the case.

It is completly hypocritical. If these people are nothing then by your own "punch up not down" logic you are the bad guy. If they are in such a state that they are out manned and out gunned by people who tend to shun violence and arming themselves, then they really are to be pitied.

But like all sjw logic it is completely flawed. They cannot be so ineffectual that violent conflict is a sure win, yet powerful enough to warrent physical violence just for speaking.
Ah, the age-old dilemma.

Any institution which has enough potential force that it can protect your stuff from those who would take or destroy it over your objections is also, by natural extension, capable of bringing enough potential force to take or destroy your stuff over your objections.

The flaws in this thinking go beyond the theoretical, of course. Gene Sharp observes in "From Dictatorship to Democracy" that in order to wage violent struggle against a regime in the modern era inevitably means accepting either international assistance or the black market, both of which will involve 'strings attached' that immediately bring corruption to the new state being created and eroding its legitimacy before it even gets going.

Of all the possible forms of conflict that can take place, choosing the one you are most outmatched by basically limits the possible outcomes to either failure or a new system just as abusive as the last, possibly even worse.
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Old 1st March 2017, 10:22 AM   #1440
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
So, let's not talk about what windows are for. Let's talk about the rights of property owners.
Except Caveman1917 won't agree with the general consensus on property rights because it doesn't conform with his belief system.

How about instead we point out that rule by intimidation, breaking things when you don't get your way, may not be the best way to improve society?
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