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1st March 2017, 10:26 AM | #1441 |
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You're preaching to the choir. But in this case, we're dealing with someone who rejects the entire concept of property rights as a "belief" system. I don't think that will get us anywhere except to a headache.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Let's try a different approach and see if we can find common ground from which to discuss. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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1st March 2017, 11:40 AM | #1442 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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1st March 2017, 11:48 AM | #1443 |
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The priest says that God exists. It takes willful ignorance to now doubt that He exists.
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Besides, those shareholders didn't build the window, they didn't install the window, they don't maintain the window. If anything, they seem to be the ones who have nothing to do with the window at all. |
1st March 2017, 11:50 AM | #1444 |
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1st March 2017, 11:52 AM | #1445 |
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1st March 2017, 11:54 AM | #1446 |
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Now you're making a mistake when constructing your analogy: it takes willful ignorance to doubt that his belief exists and that it has real-life consequences. YOU are the one who called it a belief system. It's too late to move the goalposts now.
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1st March 2017, 12:30 PM | #1447 |
High Priest of Ed
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That's not a very good analogy. You can't prove the existence of a God, but you can certainly observe the existence of laws in that they are enforced and there are consequences if you're caught breaking them.
Legalized class robbery doesn't sound trivial at all, but in order for there to be any kind of robbery, doesn't there need to be rules of ownership? After all, you can't be robbed of that which you do not own. What in your opinion constitutes "ownership" and why should we accept your criteria over the general consensus? I'm wondering whether you even understand the secret thoughts of my brain....tee hee, tee hee. Of course I won't bother to explain because people are paying attention to me because I'm making them try to guess. Which isn't relevant to a discussion over another person's right to destroy that property. Also, you're assuming there are shareholders. Why? Earlier I asked you if it made a difference if the shop was owned and run by a window maker who literally made and installed the window. Is that window off limits to protesters? Why or why not? Interesting if tangential question. How would you answer it? Also, how does any of this justify protesters behaving like thugs, getting their way through violence? |
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1st March 2017, 12:49 PM | #1448 |
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You mean the inquisition? Yes, the existence of such laws being enforced and there being consequences if you're caught breaking them doesn't prove the existence of God.
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1st March 2017, 12:56 PM | #1449 |
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1st March 2017, 01:01 PM | #1450 |
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But Communsim puts "the withering away of the state" in the future, after a long period of development toward it. Sort of like Christians and the Second Coming of Christ. It's a belief that has little impact on the way they actually behave.
Anarchists,on the other hand, want to burn everything down NOW and think utopia will rise miraculously from the flames. Both beliefs are crazy.IMHO, and based upon a incredible misread of Human Nature, but they are somewhat different. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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1st March 2017, 02:51 PM | #1451 |
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1st March 2017, 03:21 PM | #1452 |
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1st March 2017, 03:37 PM | #1453 |
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In a theoretical sense that has never existed, sure. They would share leftist social justice values and extreme anti-governmental rightwing values. But they would be radically, fundamentally completely different altogether. Statecraft cannot be evaluated without state.
In a empirical sense, not at all. From my understanding, communism has always included strong centralized planning and government control, which seems rather Hamiltonian and leftist. They may aim to eventually eliminate the State, but until they do, their statecraft seems leftish. That said, I think many political systems are not best evaluated on a purely left/right continuum. Fascism is generally considered a rightwing system, but includes strong governmental rules, even combining aspects of socialism with authoritarianism. And libertarians tend to be considered rightwing, despite the fact that many hold social justice values more consistent with leftists. |
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“Science is an integral part of culture. It's not this foreign thing, done by an arcane priesthood. It's one of the glories of the human intellectual tradition.” - Stephen Jay Gould |
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1st March 2017, 03:43 PM | #1454 |
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To put out differently, we may well wonder whether the notions of corporations are a good thing. We might question limited liabilty.
But this has **** all to do with whether someone has the right to destroy windows to prevent someone else from speaking in a different venue. If your grief is with the university, address it there. Even then, I think it doesn't warrant destruction of property, but at least the destruction is aimed appropriately. |
1st March 2017, 04:42 PM | #1455 |
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No kidding, what is this nonsense about who owns a window? I can't even figure out where the actual conversation went astray. How about this - comparing peoples reactions to sports riots and the Berkeley thing is pointless. Sports riots are spontaneous and driven largely by alcohol. The Berkeley incident was planned. These protestors were largely outsiders specifically brought in to agitate. The masks were a clue that they weren't normal protestors. They pepper-sprayed people and broke stuff and yada yada. Let's ignore the trolls and stay on topic. |
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Why bother? |
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1st March 2017, 04:50 PM | #1456 |
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The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
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1st March 2017, 08:02 PM | #1457 |
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No.
It's very puzzling how you could have extrapolated that from anything I said, are you okay? Your perception seems to have been damaged. Thank you for conceding the existence of laws. Naysaying is not the same as negating. You know how a two-year old runs around saying "No!" all the time? The grown-ups find it annoying, but the two-year olds like the feeling of power it gives them. The attention too, which for a two-year old amounts to the same thing. Does your argument depend on the window belonging to Bank of America or Starbucks? Why? I choose to stick with the "belief system" that is commonly accepted in our society, which says the protester is not allowed to break anything that is not his. I would need a pretty good reason to choose a different one, and you're not one who will suggest alternatives. Yes there is. Emily's Cat explained it quite well in a post that you ignored. Breaking things that don't belong to you is thuggish behavior. My opinion is when you do harm you need to justify it. If you don't agree, then we will have to agree to disagree. |
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1st March 2017, 10:05 PM | #1458 |
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2nd March 2017, 03:24 AM | #1459 |
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What he's doing amounts to saying "money is a belief system" as if somehow that means you don't need to pay for stuff anymore.
First of all, they're not belief systems. They're conventions, agreements. Second, they have power in the real world (through us), and so can be said to exist. Not like God, but like religion. Caveman, get your analogies right. |
2nd March 2017, 06:33 AM | #1460 |
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He acts as though he's going to blow our minds by challenging these conventions, as though the understanding that our concepts of ownership, money and law are conventions and could be changed is secret knowledge he's revealing to us.
But he's stuck on could be different and can't get to how and why it should be different. Yes, one could consider the window to be the property of the protester, but why would that be better? No answer. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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2nd March 2017, 06:49 AM | #1461 |
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2nd March 2017, 01:45 PM | #1462 |
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Or got high.
It's very similar to the "hey man, it's like, we're all part of the same thing man... ". Yes, it seems novel to you because you've never had that thought before. But the rest of us already had that though, got caught up in it for a bit, then realized it was irrelevant and moved on. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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3rd March 2017, 02:02 PM | #1463 |
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Good news! It's not just Berkeley!
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessag...charles-murray |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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3rd March 2017, 02:15 PM | #1464 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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3rd March 2017, 02:29 PM | #1465 |
Penultimate Amazing
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3rd March 2017, 02:34 PM | #1466 |
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3rd March 2017, 02:46 PM | #1467 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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3rd March 2017, 02:52 PM | #1468 |
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P: "this window belongs to this person"
Argument: If you behave in a manner inconsistent with P then some people will employ violence against you to make you behave in a manner consistent with P. Therefor P. P: "God exists" Argument: If you behave in a manner inconsistent with P then some people will employ violence against you to make you behave in a manner consistent with P. Therefor P. Unless you hold that God really existed in medieval Spain you've got nothing.
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3rd March 2017, 02:53 PM | #1469 |
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3rd March 2017, 03:04 PM | #1470 |
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No. These are not logically equivalent propositions, and so the requirements for proof of each are not logically equivalent either. The existence of god is not equivalent to the existence of ownership. God is posited as something independent of humans, we cannot create him. Ownership is posited as something we do create, and we do so through enforcement. So enforcement of property does in fact prove property, even though enforcement of belief in god cannot prove god.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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3rd March 2017, 03:07 PM | #1471 |
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3rd March 2017, 03:10 PM | #1472 |
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3rd March 2017, 03:22 PM | #1473 |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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3rd March 2017, 03:24 PM | #1474 |
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3rd March 2017, 03:30 PM | #1475 |
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This is a skeptics' forum. That doesn't mean that we pretend that long held conventions of ownership are magically doubtful.
I own my car, just as some corporations own their windows. You can't destroy my car to make a point. You can't legally destroy windows that someone else owns to make a point. |
3rd March 2017, 03:38 PM | #1476 |
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Wrong again. The assertion of astrology is that the mechanisms ARE independent of humans, meaning humans don't create or control them. That they act ON humans doesn't change that. The mechanisms of ownership are, in contrast, created and controlled by humans, by definition.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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3rd March 2017, 03:43 PM | #1477 |
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I disagree. It is a forum where people assert whatever belief system the social group they happen find themselves in holds as true. If this forum were transported to medieval Spain it would be filled with people asserting the existence of God. This can be determined by the arguments used in support of the belief systems being promoted, such as...
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Also, one clearly can do these things, as the subject of this very thread shows. |
3rd March 2017, 04:08 PM | #1478 |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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3rd March 2017, 04:35 PM | #1479 |
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Do you consider atheism a belief system? If not, why would non-acceptance of a specific belief be itself a belief system?
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If I find a group of people who conventionally believe in invisible elves in their backyard that doesn't mean that the burden is on someone not accepting that belief to argue against it. |
3rd March 2017, 04:44 PM | #1480 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Caveman1917, the debate is not about your atheism,but your violent from of Anarchism.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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