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24th March 2017, 07:46 AM | #1721 |
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In my state, either party probably could still claim self-defense. If the biker claimed that the nads-on-chin remark put him in fear of eminent bodily harm (that the guy was clearly about to start swinging), he could legally launch preemptive defense. The first guy could say that 'talk is cheap/just kidding around' and claim self-defense over any assault by the biker. Self-defense laws are dicey as hell, juries can find almost any outcome.
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24th March 2017, 07:54 AM | #1722 |
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24th March 2017, 09:39 AM | #1723 |
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24th March 2017, 09:44 AM | #1724 |
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You've misunderstood the scenario. Or I failed to explain it well. Either one is sufficient.
Situation: Bob: Says words that are offensive and inflammatory Steve: Punches Bob Cop: Arrests Steve for assault Steve: Claims it was self-defense because of "fighting words" Me: No... it doesn't work that way. |
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24th March 2017, 09:46 AM | #1725 |
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Prohibitions against assault are just and fair. I don't think that's at all subjective.
Credible and immediate threat is the only case in which I would sanction preemptive violence as self-defense. Calling someone names isn't a threat. None of the things that you seem to accept as "fighting words" that justify or excuse violence in response qualify as threats in my eyes. I'm fairly confident that the law would agree with me on that assessment. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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24th March 2017, 09:47 AM | #1726 |
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24th March 2017, 08:54 PM | #1727 |
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24th March 2017, 09:19 PM | #1728 |
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This is true, and it works that way where I live. However, there is more:
Bob: Says words that are offensive and inflammatory Steve: Punches Bob Bob: Defends himself from Steve's onslaught. Cop: Arrests Steve and Bob for fighting Steve: Claims it was self-defense because of "fighting words" No...just no. Bob: Claims he was innocent and just defending himself. Nope...won't work. That's what I meant. |
25th March 2017, 08:38 AM | #1729 |
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The provocation defense is legally recognized in the U.S., though, and is considered mitigating in sentencing (commonly used to reduce murder to manslaughter bc 'heat of passion'). If provocation/fighting words are mitigating in capital cases, I cannot for the life of me understand why they would not reasonably apply to lesser crimes. Is it not more reasonable for a person to be provoked into an assault than a killing?
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25th March 2017, 02:21 PM | #1730 |
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Then read about the laws and gain understanding. I just read about provocation defense to address your quote. Now I know more than I did.
I don't think "fighting words" equals provocation in most cases, if ever. Heat of passion is first of all, difficult to prove, and second, we're talking about punching someone whom you disagree with, not dismembering someone you just found in bed with your spouse. Issues of the heart have been deemed important enough to sometimes "excuse" bad behavior to an extent. Right or wrong, it has been that way for a very long time. Apparently, humans are known to snap under certain extreme conditions. Did the guy who punched Spencer lose control of himself, or did he just happen to be passing by and willingly insert himself into the incident? Did the Berkeley rioters come to the school intent on doing damage to it? Seems that way, after all they arrived masked with bats, pepper spray and other items. Perhaps I am not explaining this well, but I don't really feel I should need to. It's simple, sticks and stones. Most people here seem to agree so that's as far as I'm going with this. |
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25th March 2017, 03:34 PM | #1731 |
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25th March 2017, 09:44 PM | #1732 |
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Thank you for the constructive advice. Surprisingly, I already have.
Originally Posted by mgidm86
Originally Posted by mgidm86
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgidm86
Originally Posted by mgidm86
Originally Posted by mgidm86
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-...l/1357184.html http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/c...context=uclrev |
25th March 2017, 09:48 PM | #1733 |
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Ok, but is it fair to say that it might not be a calculated decision? I'm thinking more like a rage response than a weighed choice. Also, a lot of people might consider punching someone else, but (hopefully) very few would ever actually consider a murder for any reason.
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25th March 2017, 09:56 PM | #1734 |
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That's not how it works at all. See, ya' punch a loud-mouthed right-winger in the mouth and he goes home, and stays home. He quits talking and he doesn't vote. Because he ashamed of being whipped. That's why Liberals punch right-wingers in the mouth.
And it's going to happen more and more as Liberals figure oout that they can not reason with the right-wing hate. If ya' don't like it...if ya' find it shocking...then, what can I say, It's just the way things are going to happen. Yeah, there are a lot of derogatory terms the Right uses: Pinko, Libtard, Tree-hugger, bleeding-heart, Moonbat...but those days are coming to a close, with a punch-in-the-mouth. |
25th March 2017, 10:06 PM | #1735 |
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25th March 2017, 10:10 PM | #1736 |
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26th March 2017, 12:04 AM | #1737 |
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26th March 2017, 01:01 AM | #1738 |
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26th March 2017, 06:51 AM | #1739 |
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Masked goons pepper-sprayed Trump supporters in Orange County. They are reported to be "antifa" (a term I was unfamiliar with until this thread). Does anyone care to support these actions?
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26th March 2017, 08:17 AM | #1740 |
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You're right, the 'lost control' defense falls flat in anything short of the most extreme circumstances. What I am kicking around is basically the older interpretation of fighting words defense- that some words are so vile that they are the equivalent of throwing a first punch. This is still actually a legitimate basis for an assault charge in the U.S., that the words alone inflicted enough damage to qualify as assault. What is not supported is a physical response to the assault, and that's where I am proposing a slight modification to existing law. Simply put, that you should be able to claim that you were goaded into throwing the first punch, when the adversary had (metaphorically) already thrown the first.
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26th March 2017, 08:55 AM | #1741 |
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How about this:
The counter protesters claimed they were forming a human wall in a legal protest, abt 30 counter-protesters against 2000 marchers. Based on the link, sounds like only a few of the counter-protesters had spray, and used it when the 2000 Trupmeters had closed in on them, possibly with enough menace as to pose a credible threat to the safety of the few opposers. Then the Trumpeters apparently beat one to the ground, kicking and punching him. Sounds like a violent mob attacking some civil counter-protesters (who were prepared for self-defense by bringing spray) to me. Anything in the link to rule out this scenario? |
26th March 2017, 09:04 AM | #1742 |
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26th March 2017, 09:09 AM | #1743 |
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26th March 2017, 09:14 AM | #1744 |
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26th March 2017, 09:22 AM | #1745 |
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I don't know about anyone else, but I only wear masks for Halloween.
It will be up to the police to sort out what happened, and who was acting in self defense, but if the only claim that this guy has was based on some sort of feeling, he's got no claim at all. Moreover, the police are going to start out biased against the guy, and they should. There's one group of people with a permit, and some other dude, with no permit, masked and with pepper spray. It's going to be a really tough sell to convince anyone that the masked man was not the troublemaker in that scenario. |
26th March 2017, 09:28 AM | #1746 |
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26th March 2017, 09:28 AM | #1747 | ||
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These so-called "Trump Supporters" of Sacramento:
https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/...17/03/1-58.jpg https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/...17/03/1-6.jpeg https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/...17/03/1-65.jpg Apparently they have the habit of stabbing the untermenschen around them at their rallies. How dare anyone even think about bringing pepper-spray as a self-defense measure against this?! It's an utter affront to the glorious ideals of liberalism! |
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26th March 2017, 09:30 AM | #1748 |
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26th March 2017, 07:49 PM | #1749 |
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Admittedly a bit of Devil's Advocate here, but I don't think the masks and pepper spray are necessarily ominous. Pepper spray is a non-lethal self-defense aid, deregulated and perfectly legal to carry in California (linked below). Trump marches may have trouble-making white supremacists, fascist types etc in their ranks (these groups overwhelmingly support President Trump) who could plausibly attack a civil counter-protester.. The most telling trait of the use of pepper spray is that it is non-lethal, hence somewhat humane. If they carried Molotovs and pipes, a harder sell for justifiable self-defense.
Re: masks, it is reasonable to not want your mug posted on a neo-nazi website, with a 'Wanted For Treason-Dead or Alive' caption, so masks my be prudent for self-protection as well. The counter-protesters see the marchers as violent fascists, so they may have good reason to fear unlawful retaliation if identified. And the obvious: 30 counter protesters versus two thousand marchers. Did they have a tanker truck full of pepper spray? If not, sounds more like some were carrying personal (and legal) self-defense aids, not weapons to launch against legions. These cats may not be that bright, but I don't think they're that dumb. http://consumerwiki.dca.ca.gov/wiki/...Mace/Tear_Gas) |
26th March 2017, 08:37 PM | #1750 |
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26th March 2017, 09:09 PM | #1751 |
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I've seen some videos. There are undoubtedly more. The police will have to look through them and see if they can determine who initiated the violence. However, if there's a group of people who followed proper procedure, got permits, and clearly had a right to be where they were, and someone shows up, interferes with that, while wearing a mask and carrying pepper spray, it's just hard to picture that person as having acted in a totally benign manner.
The "I felt threatened because I was surrounded by crazy people" defense is certainly not going to fly. At the very least, they will have to show that there were actual threats to their safety. I think even that would be insufficient unless the threats were specific and credible. I think they would have to show that the Trump supporters actually initiated violence in order to justify using pepper spray on them. Some of the video I've seen looked fairly damning of the pro-Trump crowd, but it also looked heavily edited. Hopefully, the police can make sense of it. This sort of violence is very, very, bad, and I hope they can clearly pinpoint a responsible party. |
26th March 2017, 09:37 PM | #1752 |
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I'm running with 'natural adversaries who are likely to throw down any time they meet'. The LA Times for example reports that the pro-Trump marchers attacked photographers and reporters, linked below (whitelist the site to read), and yes the video I have seen showed exclusively naked aggression by the marchers. Others paint the counter-protesters as the instigators. Good guess that while one antifa may have sprayed first, the pro-Trump crowd was more than willing to rough up anyone in range.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...326-story.html ETA: the LA Times reports that the pro-Trumpers attacked the media first, then the pepper spray happened. For funsies, they also include a pic of Trump supporters...wearing bandanna masks |
26th March 2017, 09:58 PM | #1753 |
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27th March 2017, 06:48 AM | #1754 |
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27th March 2017, 07:36 AM | #1755 |
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27th March 2017, 07:38 AM | #1756 |
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27th March 2017, 07:44 AM | #1757 |
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27th March 2017, 07:53 AM | #1758 |
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Untrue, unfair, and a blatant strawman. I assert outright that the measures they took were likely in preparation for being attacked by the marchers, as Trump supporters are known to be violent towards those with whom they disagree.
You offered earlier to dig up additional reporting. Please note that I actually did, from eyewitness reporting by the LA Times, above. From one of the attacked journalists (attacked by Trump supporters, of course):
Quote:
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27th March 2017, 08:00 AM | #1759 |
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Could you clarify this? It could mean a couple different things (or nothing at all).
Quote:
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27th March 2017, 09:19 AM | #1760 |
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You wrote "forming a human wall." And then claimed that the Pro-Trump marchers "closed in on them."
Meaning, of course, the "human wall" which they had constructed. That is what we call the "they were coming right for me!" defense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU |
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