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Old 19th March 2018, 03:14 PM   #201
JSanderO
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David Cole visited a NIST campus where steel from WTC was stored... some of it... most was sold for scrap. There is some in a hangar at JFK.

Regardless all the columns did collapse... just as all the floors and the transfers... Con Ed was crushed.

Heat was the proximate reason for the building collapse.

Heat did not weaken the steel columns very much according to the report. The impact from heat which led to floor collapse was expansion of beams and girders.... which caused the floors to collapse... The study was on floor 12... so presumably the floor to the west of col 79 collapsed on floor 12...

JUMP

This is the sketchy part:

multiple floors collapse (6-12) and land on the slab on floor 5. Col 79 buckles and collapses and transfers its loads to adjacent columns to the west... and then some debris causes columns to displace/buckle... one transfer to collapse...and the then the whole interior collapses followed by the facade.
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Old 19th March 2018, 04:51 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
This is the sketchy part:

multiple floors collapse (6-12) and land on the slab on floor 5. Col 79 buckles and collapses and transfers its loads to adjacent columns to the west... and then some debris causes columns to displace/buckle... one transfer to collapse...and the then the whole interior collapses followed by the facade.

If you are claiming that the NIST explanation is inconsistent because the later result (the whole interior collapsing) doesn't follow logically or physically from the earlier events (e.g. the bucking of column 79), then perhaps you should clarify how you think events should have been expected to proceed instead. Given the hypothesized initial events, at what point, or under what condition, do you think the collapse should have stopped progressing, and why?
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Old 19th March 2018, 05:12 PM   #203
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Since this discussion isn't really about Conspiracy Theories, shouldn't it be moved to an engineering forum?
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Old 19th March 2018, 05:34 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If you are claiming that the NIST explanation is inconsistent because the later result (the whole interior collapsing) doesn't follow logically or physically from the earlier events (e.g. the bucking of column 79), then perhaps you should clarify how you think events should have been expected to proceed instead. Given the hypothesized initial events, at what point, or under what condition, do you think the collapse should have stopped progressing, and why?
I don't think the floor collapse did what they assert. I think the floor collapse penetrated the fith floor and knocked over column E3 and E4 which held up one end or a transfer truss and that then fell and its fall involved columns 80 and 81 and the entire East side interior came down...

I don't think columns buckled as much as were pushed over and end splices broke... If you want to call multi story columns breaking at the end spliced and breaking free... pushed by falling floor debris "buckling" fine. I see it more like a stack of jenga blocks falling from being jostled rather than bowing as a multi story assembly and "buckling". And this is why I am curious to see the recovered column 79.
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Old 19th March 2018, 06:41 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Since this discussion isn't really about Conspiracy Theories, shouldn't it be moved to an engineering forum?
All the engineering is on one side. The CT is all coming from an avowed non-engineer, non-analyst, vague-memoried CT-er who absolutely knows that there no way engineers can draw any conclusions merely based on knowledge, expertise, and state-of-the art tools...
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Old 19th March 2018, 07:49 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I don't think the floor collapse did what they assert. I think the floor collapse penetrated the fith floor and knocked over column E3 and E4 which held up one end or a transfer truss and that then fell and its fall involved columns 80 and 81 and the entire East side interior came down...

I don't think columns buckled as much as were pushed over and end splices broke... If you want to call multi story columns breaking at the end spliced and breaking free... pushed by falling floor debris "buckling" fine. I see it more like a stack of jenga blocks falling from being jostled rather than bowing as a multi story assembly and "buckling". And this is why I am curious to see the recovered column 79.
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Old 19th March 2018, 08:39 PM   #207
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Sander, perhaps you show evidence (I mean photos) that the TT failed the way you imagine.

You can't? Oh I guess that means it cannot have happened.
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Old 20th March 2018, 02:18 AM   #208
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I suppose that there is no physical evidence of buckled column 79 and perhaps, 80 and 81. I don't know that the removal of the debris was well documented with photos. I suppose it would show more. I have seen some photos. The transfers whatever happened to them would be at the close to the bottom of the debris because the they were low in the building.

It appears that there was little forensic engineering in the way of studying the recovered steel. If so the OP is answered.

"However... how many physical examples of buckling are there from the 3 buildings?

Can anyone cite photos of them? the floor on which they were and of course the building they came from.?"
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Old 20th March 2018, 07:23 AM   #209
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And then there's this:

"There is work being done on the column 79 issue. A very conservative analysis of that column, per the 13th edition of the AISC Manual for Steel Construction, shows it could go a minimum of five stories without lateral support with 100 psf loads on the floor areas it was supporting. The NIST report claims most of the girders framing into column 79 between floors 5 and 14 either buckled or had their connections broken due to thermal expansion."

If this statement is true... how did col 79 buckle? Where did it buckle?
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Old 20th March 2018, 10:32 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
And then there's this:

"There is work being done on the column 79 issue. A very conservative analysis of that column, per the 13th edition of the AISC Manual for Steel Construction, shows it could go a minimum of five stories without lateral support with 100 psf loads on the floor areas it was supporting. The NIST report claims most of the girders framing into column 79 between floors 5 and 14 either buckled or had their connections broken due to thermal expansion."

If this statement is true... how did col 79 buckle? Where did it buckle?
You truly do not have a clue, do you?
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Old 20th March 2018, 11:09 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
And then there's this:

"There is work being done on the column 79 issue. A very conservative analysis of that column, per the 13th edition of the AISC Manual for Steel Construction, shows it could go a minimum of five stories without lateral support with 100 psf loads on the floor areas it was supporting. The NIST report claims most of the girders framing into column 79 between floors 5 and 14 either buckled or had their connections broken due to thermal expansion."

If this statement is true... how did col 79 buckle? Where did it buckle?

This is a strange question. It's like asking, "if the American flag is supposed to be red, white, and blue, why the heck does it have red stripes?" The phrasing seems to be suggesting some sort of contradiction but there's no contradiction in sight.

You are aware that column 79 was supporting loads from many floors above floor 14, right? Thirty-three of them, if I recall correctly.
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Old 20th March 2018, 11:15 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I suppose that there is no physical evidence of buckled column 79 and perhaps, 80 and 81. I don't know that the removal of the debris was well documented with photos. I suppose it would show more. I have seen some photos. The transfers whatever happened to them would be at the close to the bottom of the debris because the they were low in the building.

It appears that there was little forensic engineering in the way of studying the recovered steel. If so the OP is answered.

"However... how many physical examples of buckling are there from the 3 buildings?

Can anyone cite photos of them? the floor on which they were and of course the building they came from.?"
If you want good photos of Ground Zero, there are several books that contain them. If you want detailed, day by day photos of the clean-up of WTC7, you'll have to request them from NYC via FOIA because the aerial photographer retained all of the rights to those shots in a gigantic legal **** up by FEMA/NYC. Notes on the photo books and the aerial photos are all in a thread that I know you've seen at metabunk: https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-th...t-later.t9469/
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Old 20th March 2018, 01:08 PM   #213
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Thanks to all who contributed to the thread.
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