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Old 23rd March 2018, 02:23 PM   #241
applecorped
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As I suspected
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Old 23rd March 2018, 02:31 PM   #242
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Of course dann poo poohed away the evidence for a growing black middle class in SA. A growing middle class of any kind flys right in the face of basic Marxist dogma, which is that the middle class is a temporary,short lived phenenmenon, doomed by the forces of history to dissapeare, and Marx is always right.....
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Old 23rd March 2018, 06:15 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's obvious that nobody can wrong you when you don't (yet) exist, but it's just as obvious that if you inherit nothing but poverty from your parents because they were deprived of what their children were meant to inherit, then you've been wronged.
But what makes you think that, in this case, these people were meant to inherit land? Since wealth seems to be a factor for "wrongness" to you, would you say that neither Letsie III of Lesotho and Mswati III of Swaziland have not been wronged despite being deprived of lands they were meant to inherit?

Would you oppose the taking of land from Boers living in the lands of what was once the Nieuwe Republiek? Those people are descended from people who were paid in land in exchange for fighting for Dinuzulu against his enemies, or would you take their land and give it back to the current Zulu king?

Quote:
So not only poverty but also the (black) middle classes are growing. Good for them. But their newly acquired wealth doesn't seem to trickle down much, does it?!
No wonder BusinessTech isn't interested in poor people.
And what is your solution to this then? That the government steal wealth from the black middle class as well as from all white people and redistribute it to the poor?

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I do! When you own nothing and therefore have to work for those who do, you are negatively affected by the inequality of private property.
And the solution to this is what? Absolute equitable redistribution of private property? The abolition of private property altogether?
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Old 24th March 2018, 05:38 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
The abolition of private property altogether?

That is the best idea that's been suggested so far!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 24th March 2018, 07:59 AM   #245
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Anarchy and genocide it is then
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Old 24th March 2018, 10:57 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is the best idea that's been suggested so far!
Someone has totally lost touch with reality......
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Old 24th March 2018, 11:40 AM   #247
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As we all know, private property guarantees a society characterized by the absence of violence!

Yeah, right! Talking of being out of touch with reality!

How the state keeps competition in tune with private property
Landed property and the houseing question in capitalism
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th March 2018, 12:11 PM   #248
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As long as human beings are human, you are going to have a degree of violence. A totally no violent society is an impossible utopia,a dream with no chance of becoming reality. You will need a species other then Human for that.
And I note that non Capitalist countries are not exactly immune from massive violence....I give you Soviet Russia, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia as example.
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:57 PM   #249
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Not exactly "non Capitalist countries", but not your run-of-the-mill market economies either.
State capitalism (Wikipedia)
From 1917 to Perestroika - The Victory of Morality over Socialism (GegenStandpunkt)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 24th March 2018, 05:15 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not exactly "non Capitalist countries", but not your run-of-the-mill market economies either.
State capitalism (Wikipedia)
From 1917 to Perestroika - The Victory of Morality over Socialism (GegenStandpunkt)
There is actually science on this question. Let's see what it says:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...50621003784846
Quote:
We find considerable support for this modernized conception of the capitalist peace. Nations that are financially open to the global economy, and that face constrained or interdependent monetary policies, experience fewer interstate crises. Development appears to discourage contiguous states from fighting over territory, while increasing policy-based crises. Policy affinity leads to fewer ICB crises. Democracy, in contrast, appears to have no significant impact on interstate crisis behavior. Results are also consistent with our expectations for crisis intensity and escalation.
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Old 24th March 2018, 05:26 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

So not only poverty but also the (black) middle classes are growing. Good for them. But their newly acquired wealth doesn't seem to trickle down much, does it?!
No wonder BusinessTech isn't interested in poor people.
Two things:

First, when I mention that extreme poverty is decreasing, you say that's not enough, you're not interested in just getting people access to basic necessities, but want them to have a life comparable to the middle classes. So I mention that the middle class is growing as well, and now those new members of the middle class are also a problem?

Second, when you say "poverty is growing" you are being pretty disingenuous. I mentioned a trend of decreasing poverty over decades. Your article talks about poverty increasing over a single year and, and within the context of that decade long decrease. From your article:

Quote:
The latest “Poverty Trends in South Africa” report shows that, despite the general decline in poverty between 2006 and 2011, poverty levels in South Africa rose in 2015.
So, is the cause of this 2015 rise in poverty the subjegation of the masses by elites? Let's see what your article says:

Quote:
The South African economy in the last five years, notably between 2011 and 2015, has been driven by a combination of international and domestic factors such as low and weak economic growth, continuing high unemployment levels, lower commodity prices, higher consumer prices (especially for energy and food), lower investment levels, greater household dependency on credit, and policy uncertainty. This period has seen the financial health of South African households decline under the weight of these economic pressures and, in turn, has pulled more households and individuals down into poverty.
That sounds like South Africa faces problems with it's economy as a whole, partly due to international factors out of it's control (for instance the financial crisis of 2008 and it's repercussions). It certainly doesn't sound like a legacy of colonialism.
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Old 24th March 2018, 11:51 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That sounds like South Africa faces problems with it's economy as a whole, partly due to international factors out of it's control (for instance the financial crisis of 2008 and it's repercussions). It certainly doesn't sound like a legacy of colonialism.
I've enjoyed your posts, they are congruent with my experience.

The stagnation of the economy has indeed been affected by external factors, but graft and political uncertainty were (by my reckoning) the main factors since about 2013. Parastatals were treated like private bank accounts, corrupt deals were cut and the poor lost out. Sometimes on infrastructure, sometimes with their lives (see the Esidemeni Life tragedy).

If you look at public sentiment and the trajectory of the country, we were on a promising track until about 2009. The last decade has been brutal for us, but the fundamentals are still sound. The judiciary has remained staunchly independent and the rule of law has prevailed this far. There is much to hope for. Economic transformative takes time. It is happening. Perhaps not as fast as many would like, but the trend is irreversible and growing. As it should be.
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Old 25th March 2018, 02:11 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
I've enjoyed your posts, they are congruent with my experience.

The stagnation of the economy has indeed been affected by external factors, but graft and political uncertainty were (by my reckoning) the main factors since about 2013. Parastatals were treated like private bank accounts, corrupt deals were cut and the poor lost out. Sometimes on infrastructure, sometimes with their lives (see the Esidemeni Life tragedy).
That all makes sense to me.
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Old 26th March 2018, 12:31 PM   #254
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Will South Africa become the next Zimbabwe?

Unconfirmed info. Deleted for now.
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Old 26th March 2018, 01:08 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is the best idea that's been suggested so far!
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Old 26th March 2018, 01:09 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
As we all know, private property guarantees a society characterized by the absence of violence!
Which capitalist pig said this?

Oh, right, no one.
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Old 26th March 2018, 01:39 PM   #257
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Ok, as far as I can see crowds of people didn't wait for any laws to pass and occupied land in Hermanus. The authorities tried to stop them and arrests were made. this caused a riot with what looks like hundreds of rioters attacking the town and setting fire to the police station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zBETRFFTdI

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/her...gal-land-grabs
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Old 26th March 2018, 03:10 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which capitalist pig said this?

Oh, right, no one.
And, as I pointed out, the Anti Capitalist countries have had their own share of mass violence..to which Dann responded with the usual "State Capitalist" nonsense.
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