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Old 7th September 2022, 11:32 AM   #41
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
No, it was simply one of several that I listed.
I may have missed one because I only saw two. And the other that I didn't just ask you about wasn't clear about it being offensive in English. It seemed the issue might only be present if you're speaking Arabic or a journalist that might be read internationally.
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:15 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
It's statements like these and your absolutist notions of morality and what's offensive that makes me suspect you're very young indeed.

I suspect the term was perfectly fine in the 2010's as well for that matter, but no doubt that's ancient history to you as well.
You suspect wrong, as I've already shown.

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Uh, dude, sorry to rain on your self-righteous whinge, but someone being 30-40 years old -- which is really all that's needed to have learned that spelling even as the mainstream one -- is NOT the same as "old southerner". Fer fork's sake, not only it's not old, it's at best middle-aged. It's also nowhere near on par with the timeline for "negro", which fell out of favour in the very early 70's or so.

Basically you seem to still just be at stringing delusional assumptions on top of other delusional assumptions, in that quest to have something to complain about.
Sorry to rain on your intentionally obtuse parade, by that spelling was not mainstream even 40 years ago. Not in English. I'm well over 40, and a native English speaker. What you two are imagining with no corroborating evidence and plenty of contradictory evidence is just wrong.
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:32 PM   #43
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This may help:



Source: https://writingexplained.org/moslem-...lim-difference
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:41 PM   #44
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
This may help:
Doesn't really help. There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the word is falling out of use. Support for the idea that it's because it's offensive in English seems to be another matter.

ETA: Your own source doesn't have a definitive answer but suggests that it happened simply because one famous organization chose the Muslim spelling.

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Old 7th September 2022, 12:46 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Doesn't really help. There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the word is falling out of use. Support for the idea that it's because it's offensive in English seems to be another matter.
One of the claims made in this thread is that if you are a 30-40 years old English speaker, you will have learned "Moslem" as the mainstream spelling. Evidence showing that it wasn't even the mainstream spelling 60 years ago certainly should help to counter that claim.
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:47 PM   #46
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MAY have. MAY.
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
One of the claims made in this thread is that if you are a 30-40 years old English speaker, you will have learned "Moslem" as the mainstream spelling. Evidence showing that it wasn't even the mainstream spelling 60 years ago certainly should help to counter that claim.
So? I'm asking about the idea that the word has become offensive.

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Old 7th September 2022, 12:56 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
MAY have. MAY.
Ah, one "may" have learned a spelling that had been out of favor since the 1960's as the mainstream, preferred spelling if one is 30-40. That "may" sure helps make the claim more believable, huh?
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:58 PM   #49
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I won't bother to argue about common usages as they're obviously alternate spellings and transliteration of the same Arabic word, but it most certainly wasn't considered offensive until very recently.

That's the perniciousness of Newspeak: That insistence that words always meant what it does today and were always offensive so that people forget the past. Online dictionaries are part of the problem.
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Old 7th September 2022, 12:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So? I'm asking about the idea that the word has become offensive.
I gave you a link in post 72 that was 20 years old already pointing out then that it was offensive.

Here's the thing, you don't want to accept a twenty year old writing guide and a dictionary as authoritative enough? Find something with better authority making the opposite claim, then. Find a writing source that isn't Stormfront or my drunken uncle's Facebook rants, but rather a respected, no ties to white supremacists or white nationalism that uses "Moslem".
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:04 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
I won't bother to argue about common usages as they're obviously alternate spellings and transliteration of the same Arabic word, but it most certainly wasn't considered offensive until very recently in geological terms.
ftfy

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
That's the perniciousness of Newspeak: That insistence that words always meant what it does today and were always offensive so that people forget the past. Online dictionaries are part of the problem.
These baby boomer youngsters and their new-faluting language speak! Why, back when I tied an onion to my belt (which was the style at the time) we called people what we wanted to, and didn't give two bits what they thought! The only problem would have been if that uppity ****** called me something I didn't like!

<shakes cane at sky>
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:10 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I already gave you one on the previous page. The American Moslem Foundation still calls itself just that: American Moslem Foundation. That's what it still calls itself. That's the name they put on their home page in big bold letters. It's not a nickname given by some supposed unspecified nazis on some unspecified site with some unspecified auto-censor.

As I was saying on the previous page notion that it somehow means "evil" or "unjust" is just stupid. No Muslims would have called their organization "the evil unjust foundation".
Then the United Negro College Fund proves that negro is not a derogatory term for blacks.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:11 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
ftfy



These baby boomer youngsters and their new-faluting language speak! Why, back when I tied an onion to my belt (which was the style at the time) we called people what we wanted to, and didn't give two bits what they thought! The only problem would have been if that uppity ****** called me something I didn't like!

<shakes cane at sky>
Don't be an idiot. The word was absolutely in common usage in my [US] workplace in the 90's, and our politically-correct diversity officer who complained about "erection" and "cannibalisation" never raised an eyebrow at moslem (not-capitalized).

Hell, why do you think it isn't censored here?
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I already gave you one on the previous page. The American Moslem Foundation still calls itself just that: American Moslem Foundation. That's what it still calls itself. That's the name they put on their home page in big bold letters. It's not a nickname given by some supposed unspecified nazis on some unspecified site with some unspecified auto-censor.

As I was saying on the previous page notion that it somehow means "evil" or "unjust" is just stupid. No Muslims would have called their organization "the evil unjust foundation".
You, uh, didn't really look at that site very deeply or click on any of the links, did you?
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:14 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Don't be an idiot. The word was absolutely in common usage in my workplace in the 90's, and our politically-correct diversity officer who complained about "erection" and "cannibalisation" never raised an eyebrow at moslem (not-capitalized). Hell, why do you think it isn't censored here?
Yeah, I'm not really prepared to believe what people who brag about being so old that 20-30 years is no time at all to them claim they remember vividly from those 20-30 years ago.

And it isn't censored here for the same reason that the vast majority of derogatory slang terms for any group of people aren't. Nobody is capable of making any changes to anything they didn't think of putting on the list way back when Randi owned the place.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:16 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I gave you a link in post 72 that was 20 years old already pointing out then that it was offensive.
This link: https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524

It doesn't say that. It says the words are synonymous in English but the similar sounding related word (which won't even be in the same alphabet) is offensive in Arabic.

The concern seems to surround Arabic speakers, not English.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Here's the thing, you don't want to accept a twenty year old writing guide and a dictionary as authoritative enough?
I accepted them but for what they actually say and not your interpretation.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Find something with better authority making the opposite claim, then.
Your source says they are synonymous in English, will you accept your own source?

BTW I don't expect you to. I don't think your source addresses the actual question directly enough.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Find a writing source that isn't Stormfront or my drunken uncle's Facebook rants, but rather a respected, no ties to white supremacists or white nationalism that uses "Moslem".
Your own link cites the American Moslem Foundation.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:16 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You, uh, didn't really look at that site very deeply or click on any of the links, did you?
Why? Other than being a bit dead for the last couple of years, the fact remains that at least as late as 2013 when that page was last updated, it didn't think that Moslem means "evil or unjust" in their foundation name.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:19 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Your own link cites the American Moslem Foundation.
If that was such an accepted spelling why did they not use it in their own webpage other than in the name of the organization?
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:21 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
This link: https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524

It doesn't say that. It says the words are synonymous in English but the similar sounding related word (which won't even be in the same alphabet) is offensive in Arabic.

The concern seems to surround Arabic speakers, not English.
It's even worse. The supposed "evil" word has the exact same transliteration issue as "Muslim"/"Moslem". In the latest preferred transliteration, that word too is actually "Muzlim". It's the Z not the vowels that make that another word.

And it means "dark" (as in dim light) not "evil", but ok, whatever.

As I was saying, it's 100% a manufactured outrage by people who don't even know WTH they're talking about, but need something to get outraged about.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:22 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Doncha just love it when someone from Germany tells you how people in your own country really think about some term he read on the internet? Like...akshooully some blacks prefer negro he says, having never, ever tried to use that term to a black person's face.
Dontcha just love it when an internet outrage peddler will disbelieve the actual US census forms, if it gets in the way of their getting dutifully outraged?
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:24 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
So it wasn't widely considered offensive when Randi owned the place, unlike, say, ******?
"spic"
"kike"
"slanteye"
"raghead"
"wop"
"dago"

which of those terms wasn't widely considered offensive when Randi owned the place?
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Dontcha just love it when an internet outrage peddler will disbelieve the actual US census forms, if it gets in the way of their getting dutifully outraged?
Oh, no, you got me. I literally have never met a black person who finds "negro" offensive. It's all an act.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:26 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If that was such an accepted spelling why did they not use it in their own webpage other than in the name of the organization?
Presumably because, just like the American Moslem Society (another one which didn't change its name), and a few other ones, it was named decades back, while the content is newer and a different spelling has become mainstream. The point still remains that they would have changed it, if "moslem" actually meant or was that easy to confuse with "evil or unjust". Unlike the other slurs that our esteemed forum member seems to think it's equivalent, actual Muslims think it's ok enough to leave it in the name of their organization, whereas for slurs like those in his list nobody would have founded an organization called the "American Kike Foundation" or "American Spic Society" in the first place.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:28 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If that was such an accepted spelling why did they not use it in their own webpage other than in the name of the organization?
Because it's outdated.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Presumably because, just like the American Moslem Society (another one which didn't change its name), and a few other ones, it was named decades back, while the content is newer and a different spelling has become mainstream. The point still remains that they would have changed it, if "moslem" actually meant or was that easy to confuse with "evil or unjust".
Dude is linking to places founded in 1937 and dead websites for groups that have zero presence outside of that dead website as evidence that the spelling has been just fine and dandy for any point in his life.

AMS very likely hasn't changed their name for the same reason UNCF didn't change their name: lots of old places hang on to old, outdated names. But then again you think black people prefer to be called "negro" so you don't even get the point of that comparison.
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:32 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
"spic"
"kike"
"slanteye"
"raghead"
"wop"
"dago"

which of those terms wasn't widely considered offensive when Randi owned the place?
Apparently none of them were as troublesome as all that in those days, even if they would be considered in bad taste. Context is everything, as this post of yours shows. In some places, your post would be a sackable offence now, context be damned.

Do you really think being referred to as a "moslem" rises to the level of "dago wop" now?
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Old 7th September 2022, 01:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Presumably because, just like the American Moslem Society (another one which didn't change its name), and a few other ones, it was named decades back, while the content is newer and a different spelling has become mainstream. The point still remains that they would have changed it, if "moslem" actually meant or was that easy to confuse with "evil or unjust". Unlike the other slurs that our esteemed forum member seems to think it's equivalent, actual Muslims think it's ok enough to leave it in the name of their organization, whereas for slurs like those in his list nobody would have founded an organization called the "American Kike Foundation" or "American Spic Society" in the first place.
Not with that resulting acronym, anyways.
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Old 7th September 2022, 02:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not with that resulting acronym, anyways.
Now I'm in a mind to go found the Florida Ultra-Conservative Kabal

Edit: also see the (quite real, even if a joke) Free UK Party
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Old 7th September 2022, 02:46 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Same question: now you know, what will you do with that knowledge?
Well, since I never used it before, maybe I'll go all Crazy Ivan and continue to not use it?

Honestly, if I heard someone using it, I'd probably say "hey, I think that's considered a slam to pronounce that way. You know, like Kah-MAH-la Harris? Is that where you are going, brah?"
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Old 7th September 2022, 02:51 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Same question: now you know, what will you do with that knowledge?
May I ask how you know this?

And my answer to your question is easy: I habitually say Muslim anyway and the two Muslims I've asked about this so far wouldn't have been offended by Moslem and wouldn't even have thought the term outdated.

My interest is finding out why people became convinced of something that doesn't appear to be true.
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Old 7th September 2022, 02:57 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, since I never used it before, maybe I'll go all Crazy Ivan and continue to not use it?

Honestly, if I heard someone using it, I'd probably say "hey, I think that's considered a slam to pronounce that way. You know, like Kah-MAH-la Harris? Is that where you are going, brah?"
Some would consider you "woke" for those two responses.
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Old 7th September 2022, 03:05 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
May I ask how you know this?
I don't; it wasn't my claim. As far as I knew, it's merely an old-fashioned spelling and therefore deprecated because why would one employ an out-of-date spelling?

Quote:
And my answer to your question is easy: I habitually say Muslim anyway
Congrats?

Quote:
and the two Muslims I've asked about this so far wouldn't have been offended by Moslem and wouldn't even have thought the term outdated.
Okay. But if they did, would you change to the outdated spelling to assert your right to free speech and show the "woke mob" you can't be dictated to?

Quote:
My interest is finding out why people became convinced of something that doesn't appear to be true.
I'm not interested in that at all, personally. My interest is in whether people get so angry at being criticized (or even having the perception that they are being criticized) that they'll go ahead and do the thing they're thinking is being frowned upon, just to rebel. Like when you tell a child in a certain age range "don't do X" and it doesn't matter what X is, they'll immediately do it to assert independence.

Because that is very much part of the complaints about "wokeness": some people cannot stand being criticized and will react even in self-harming ways when they perceive criticism. "Rolling coal", for instance.
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Old 7th September 2022, 03:10 PM   #73
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Ah, OK. And, no, I wouldn't change to the offensive term for any reason.
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Old 7th September 2022, 03:11 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Some would consider you "woke" for those two responses.
Well then "woke" word mean something along the lines of "not being a dick"? I thought "woke" was a more proactive frame of mind? When I'm like literally asleep, I'm at my least dickish. Morning wood aside.
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Old 7th September 2022, 03:16 PM   #75
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well then "woke" word mean something along the lines of "not being a dick"? I thought "woke" was a more proactive frame of mind?
Like every other term, "woke" is used by different people to cover different ranges of things. There are people who would accuse you of being unacceptably "woke" for saying "the n-word" instead of the actual word that's a euphemism for.

So when people rail against "wokeness" they need to explain what range of things they're talking about, because other people might end up thinking that it's quite a different range. Sid and Marty both rail against "wokeness", but Sid is angry that his Communications professor wants him to spell it "womyn", and Marty is angry that the hospital hires Jews.

"Just give everyone the benefit of the doubt!" doesn't fly in this sick, sad world, unfortunately.
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Old 7th September 2022, 11:19 PM   #76
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't; it wasn't my claim. As far as I knew, it's merely an old-fashioned spelling and therefore deprecated because why would one employ an out-of-date spelling?
Well, your phrasing was "now you know." Actually, the point is that we really don't, even the best attempts at reproducing the claim with Google Translate doesn't seem to support it, even actual Muslims apparently don't know it means that, Muslim scholars writing on that exact topic don't seem to know that, and now you say that you don't either. And since it was protested that a German guy can tell someone what something means in English, the claim that it means "evil" in Arabic seems to originate in an article written by a student called Ms. Yii-Ann Christine Chen -- not exactly an Arabic name, is all I'm saying -- living in an English speaking country, and who doesn't list any linguistic qualifications on the matter.

That's not knowledge in any valid epistemology sense. It's not something we "know."

I mean, trusting a source that X means Y only works as a shortcut to knowledge, if you have a good reason to believe that they're an authority on the subject matter. Believing something about GR because Leonard Susskind once said it, is a valid shortcut, because you can check that he actually is a Physics professor, he's been teaching specifically GR for a long time, he doesn't seem to have any commercial interest to lie to you, it's been peer reviewed by people who are supposedly competent on the domain too, etc. Claiming to know it because I can link to a Pixie Of Key post is not.

Really, what we actually have is more akin to insisting that "politics" comes from "poli"="many" and "ticks"="bloodsuckers", because someone once copied it onto another forum from a Robin Williams gag. And if you don't agree, then you're some kind of evil person.
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Old 7th September 2022, 11:22 PM   #77
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This thread has gone in a very strange direction.
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Old 7th September 2022, 11:23 PM   #78
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
One of the claims made in this thread is that if you are a 30-40 years old English speaker, you will have learned "Moslem" as the mainstream spelling. Evidence showing that it wasn't even the mainstream spelling 60 years ago certainly should help to counter that claim.
Mate, one of your own links says this: "The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) noted,"Moslem is the form predominantly preferred in journalism and popular usage. Muslim is preferred by scholars and by English-speaking adherents of Islam."" Literally 30 years ago you could have picked an authoritative dictionary and be told it's the predominant form in popular usage. Also according to the same link, 20 years ago (at the time of writing that) it was still commonly enough used as an adjective to be worth writing just that.

Do you even actually read your own links, or just skip to whatever makes a good quote to support your outrage?
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Old 8th September 2022, 01:31 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Mate, one of your own links says this: "The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) noted,"Moslem is the form predominantly preferred in journalism and popular usage. Muslim is preferred by scholars and by English-speaking adherents of Islam."" Literally 30 years ago you could have picked an authoritative dictionary and be told it's the predominant form in popular usage. Also according to the same link, 20 years ago (at the time of writing that) it was still commonly enough used as an adjective to be worth writing just that.

Do you even actually read your own links, or just skip to whatever makes a good quote to support your outrage?
I wonder what the spelling will be when muslim becomes offensive. Mxslim? I think in Arabic the word is much more like muselman, which I'm sure I've seen in archaic English usage along with mohammedan. My best guess would be some variant of muselman.

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Old 8th September 2022, 02:24 AM   #80
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Not really. I kinda is just "muslim"... well, except just sorta... ok, not really. The consonants are those, but transliterating it into English, which is actually less phonetic than flippin' ancient Egyptian (no hyperbole; honest truth) is a problem. You have to approximate the Arabic phoneme as, well, whatever you think could be reasonably read that way, if you know how to read it. Oxford languages lists the pronunciation as məzləm orˈmo͝ozləm, and has the audio clip matching the former.

In case you wonder, ə is the "schwa" phoneme like the "a" in the american "ago" or the first one in "again". It's not what you'd immediately think about an "i", and sure as f-word is only "u" in the sense that the "u" in "undo" or "support" is also pronounce that way. But so is the second "o" in "bottom", or the "e" in "problem", or even (depending on how you pronounce them) the "y" in "analysis", or rarely an "i" as "family" (again, depending on your actual accent.) ANY English vowel can fill those two slots just fine.

Yeah, English is that phonetic

The latter is even farther off.

Dictionary.com has one that sounds like "Məslem" with an "e" like in "Terry", if you click on the sound clip icon.

So how do you write it, if you're some kid on the Internet who isn't using that word on a daily basis or anything? Exactly what is there in a "schwa" phoneme to tell you that, only this time, you absolutely must write it as an "u", and even though you've heard the second vowel pronounced as an "e", you must write it as an "i" unless you're some evil person? Why are there spelling bees at all, if English is THAT clear about exactly how you write a word? I mean, fer FSM sake, there are kids on the internet who can't write much more basic words right. But nah, let's pretend that everyone writing it "wrong" is doing it out of some malicious intent

And then there's the issue that as shown in the link to the audio clip I posted, even in Arabic there's a range of local accents and dialects. Same as "English" actually includes everything from USA southern drawl to Glaswegian. I mean an actual Lebanese was pronouncing it as "Mooslem", and a kid was pronouncing it more like "Mazlan". And that's just a small sample of the accents and dialects over that big an area, and involving some countries who don't even talk to each other. And who historically never wrote down the vowels, so they diverged hard between dialects.

So, yeah, anyone insisting that absolutely you couldn't transliterate it as "o" and "e" without some evil intent, is too... ignorant by half about BOTH Arabic AND English to be talking about such linguistics issues. What else is new, eh?

As I was saying, it's 100% manufactured outrage by people who don't even know what they're talking about, but need something to be outraged about, were looking for a reason to be outraged, were told by other uninformed twits that, hey, here's something you could be outraged about, and were dutifully outraged. It's literally like getting offended that someone pronounced your pet as "dawg" -- or better yet, not even have a dog, but get offended on behalf of someone else who has one -- just by virtue of being too... uninformed by half to know there's actually a real world accent that does that.
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

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