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Old 29th November 2021, 08:39 AM   #1
shemp
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Finally, an explanation of NFTs that everyone can understand!

https://twitter.com/joshuamartian/st...29458152431622
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Old 29th November 2021, 08:49 AM   #2
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I'll save you a click: It's a series of still images of Star Trek characters, with captions presenting a dialog about NFTs that doesn't actually explain them any better than other explanations you've already seen. Worse than some, even, since this explanation elides the technical details in favor of bargain-bin misanthropy. Maybe it gets better after that, but I stopped watching. Twitter FTL once again.
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Old 29th November 2021, 03:03 PM   #3
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I love these threads, they're just frequent enough to remind me to throw a little more money into a boring Vanguard mutual fund. My lack of excitingly trendy blockchain digital paradigm non-fungible token monkey images is a sadness that only the consistent growth of stable investments can assuage.
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Old 29th November 2021, 03:36 PM   #4
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It blows my mind how many members of my current profession (starving artist) have jumped on the NFT bandwagon. It seems to me about as stupid as accepting bitcoin for my artwork...but perhaps that would not be stupid
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Old 30th November 2021, 01:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
It blows my mind how many members of my current profession (starving artist) have jumped on the NFT bandwagon. It seems to me about as stupid as accepting bitcoin for my artwork...but perhaps that would not be stupid
If someone is willing to pay actual cash money for an NFT, I'd be perfectly willing to sell it to them.
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Old 30th November 2021, 07:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
It blows my mind how many members of my current profession (starving artist) have jumped on the NFT bandwagon. It seems to me about as stupid as accepting bitcoin for my artwork...but perhaps that would not be stupid
I would accept payment in any form. Outside of a transaction fee you could turn it into local currency and deposit it in 24 hours. Fairly easy to setup an exchange account and give people your wallet address.
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Old 30th November 2021, 07:03 PM   #7
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If I want to purchase a NFT, why must I use some form of digital currency? Why can’t I use a credit card or PayPal?
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Old 30th November 2021, 07:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
If I want to purchase a NFT, why must I use some form of digital currency? Why can’t I use a credit card or PayPal?
You'd have to ask the seller, yeah? Though if I were selling something and you questioned my choice of currency, I'd probably block you and wait for a more interested buyer.
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Old 1st December 2021, 08:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
If I want to purchase a NFT, why must I use some form of digital currency? Why can’t I use a credit card or PayPal?
You can use a credit card. Go to OpenSea, pick out something you want, and pay for it with your card like you would anywhere else.

Usually NFTs are paid for using the crypto that the NFT exists on. It's just...easier. In NoDak we get a lot of Canadians shopping at our stores. They switch their Canadian cash to American cash because it's easier to do business when everyone is using the same currency. Exactly that same concept.

You can, technically, use paypal too since paypal can now be used to purchase crypto. I think it can be used on coinbase as well.
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Old 1st December 2021, 08:45 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You'd have to ask the seller, yeah? Though if I were selling something and you questioned my choice of currency, I'd probably block you and wait for a more interested buyer.
Meh, let them pay you however they want to pay you. They could just venmo you the money in straight dollars and you can transfer the NFT to them. I've done it with one of my NFTs. It's really not tough to do and anyone selling NFTs would be savvy enough to get it done.
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Old 1st December 2021, 09:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Meh, let them pay you however they want to pay you. They could just venmo you the money in straight dollars and you can transfer the NFT to them. I've done it with one of my NFTs. It's really not tough to do and anyone selling NFTs would be savvy enough to get it done.
I was thinking more of the general case, and scenarios like garage sales. Guy walks up, wants to buy my treadmill, but first wants to know why I'm expecting dollars and not yuan or pounds or francs, he'll probably get an eyeroll in place of any actual customer service. Mostly on the principle the he's probably not really a customer.
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Old 1st December 2021, 09:38 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
It blows my mind how many members of my current profession (starving artist) have jumped on the NFT bandwagon. It seems to me about as stupid as accepting bitcoin for my artwork...but perhaps that would not be stupid
As the parent of some starving artists, all of whom do something else for a living, I'd be happy if they could figure out how to sell NFT's for their work. I don't think it's going to happen, though, if their work is not itself digital. I suppose an NFT that accompanies work would be a nice way to provide provenance, but if you don't possess the work, what are you buying? A certificate that says an original copy a lithograph is somewhere in someone's basement? A photograph of it?
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Old 1st December 2021, 09:52 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was thinking more of the general case, and scenarios like garage sales. Guy walks up, wants to buy my treadmill, but first wants to know why I'm expecting dollars and not yuan or pounds or francs, he'll probably get an eyeroll in place of any actual customer service. Mostly on the principle the he's probably not really a customer.
Gotcha.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
As the parent of some starving artists, all of whom do something else for a living, I'd be happy if they could figure out how to sell NFT's for their work. I don't think it's going to happen, though, if their work is not itself digital. I suppose an NFT that accompanies work would be a nice way to provide provenance, but if you don't possess the work, what are you buying? A certificate that says an original copy a lithograph is somewhere in someone's basement? A photograph of it?
Really the only way to turn real world artwork into an NFT would be to take a picture of it, tokenize it, and sell that to other people. Whomever bought it wouldn't have ownership of the physical artwork, just transactional ownership of the NFT. If your child puts a creation or ownership royalty on it then every time that NFT of the physical artwork is sold they will get a percentage of that transaction. I mostly see it sit at around 2.5%.

That being said, they could sell the NFT and include the shipping\sending of the physical artwork as part of the NFT bundle, as it were. I have never really heard much about that, but I don't deal in NFT artwork. Just the games.
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Old 1st December 2021, 10:14 AM   #14
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The problem, I suspect, with NFT's for physical art works is that it's hard to see how the NFT would enhance the value. It would for the artist, but not necessarily for the owner. If you buy a painting, you own it, and if you want to sell it, you can do so. Part of the advantage of an NFT is the idea that it can convey royalties to the artist on sale, but aside from the fact that such royalties represent a cut of the price the seller gets, what makes an NFT binding enough that one cannot simply sell the work without it? Provenance requires a chain of possession, but if the first owner sells the work and tells the buyer that he has an NFT that entitles him to it, what would prevent him from providing a bill of sale in which he relinquishes the NFT (and its royalty rider) without selling it?

I kind of like the idea of an NFT providing provenance and continuing royalty rights, but I can't see how it would work without a widespread convention that considers a work in some sense stolen without it.
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Old 1st December 2021, 10:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The problem, I suspect, with NFT's for physical art works is that it's hard to see how the NFT would enhance the value. It would for the artist, but not necessarily for the owner. If you buy a painting, you own it, and if you want to sell it, you can do so. Part of the advantage of an NFT is the idea that it can convey royalties to the artist on sale, but aside from the fact that such royalties represent a cut of the price the seller gets, what makes an NFT binding enough that one cannot simply sell the work without it? Provenance requires a chain of possession, but if the first owner sells the work and tells the buyer that he has an NFT that entitles him to it, what would prevent him from providing a bill of sale in which he relinquishes the NFT (and its royalty rider) without selling it?

I kind of like the idea of an NFT providing provenance and continuing royalty rights, but I can't see how it would work without a widespread convention that considers a work in some sense stolen without it.
Also has the little problem that minting an NFT is roughly equivalent to clear cutting a section of rainforest in terms of environmental damage. The energy waste involved is really hard to justify unless you're a psychopath.

There are way simpler and less environmentally disastrous ways to sell digital art.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/15/2...climate-change
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Old 1st December 2021, 10:28 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Also has the little problem that minting an NFT is roughly equivalent to clear cutting a section of rainforest in terms of environmental damage. The energy waste involved is really hard to justify unless you're a psychopath.

There are way simpler and less environmentally disastrous ways to sell digital art.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/15/2...climate-change
True also, but I think even if there were a green way to mint NFT's the problem would remain.

It does, however, raise a kind of question of long term consequences, if you think in broad terms that minting an NFT involves a debt to the earth whose due date and ultimate cost is uncertain. And on that score, I'm happy that my brood of starving artists is doing something else (auto mechanic, grocery store gofer, prosthetic limb assembler, prison librarian) and not gouging out hunks of the world.
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Also has the little problem that minting an NFT is roughly equivalent to clear cutting a section of rainforest in terms of environmental damage. The energy waste involved is really hard to justify unless you're a psychopath.

There are way simpler and less environmentally disastrous ways to sell digital art.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/15/2...climate-change
No, it doesn't. Your own article doesn't even blame NFTs. I don't know why you guys keep posting this **** but it's not true.

Again, it's the equivalent of going to a baseball game, bitching, pissing, moaning and throwing **** at the players on the field because of how much the stadium and ongoing maintenance effects the environment. Minting an NFT takes no more power than running your standard computer, or creating the digital art in the first place.

Crypto is a **** show for the environment, sure. I'll admit to that, but (for like the fifty ******* millionth time) NFTs only exist on the blockchain. You don't mine them. Per your own god damn article:

Quote:
Individual pieces of crypto art, non-fungible tokens (NFTs), are at least partially responsible for the millions of tons of planet-heating carbon dioxide emissions generated by the cryptocurrencies used to buy and sell them.
Partially? Uh, sure. I guess. Again, though, that's the same as saying the players of a sport are partially responsible for the environmental impact of the stadium they play in.
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, it doesn't. Your own article doesn't even blame NFTs. I don't know why you guys keep posting this **** but it's not true.

Again, it's the equivalent of going to a baseball game, bitching, pissing, moaning and throwing **** at the players on the field because of how much the stadium and ongoing maintenance effects the environment. Minting an NFT takes no more power than running your standard computer, or creating the digital art in the first place.

Crypto is a **** show for the environment, sure. I'll admit to that, but (for like the fifty ******* millionth time) NFTs only exist on the blockchain. You don't mine them. Per your own god damn article:



Partially? Uh, sure. I guess. Again, though, that's the same as saying the players of a sport are partially responsible for the environmental impact of the stadium they play in.
Yes, going to watch a baseball would result in more baseball fields being built. That's how markets work. If the Everglades were being filled in to build baseball fields, I might speculate how ethical it is to buy a season ticket.

NFTs driving up demand for Ethereum is going to result in more mining of Ethereum. Considering how easy it is not to engage in this nonsense, it's perfectly reasonable to ask why anyone would opt for such a wildly energy-wasteful venue.
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:39 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, going to watch a baseball would result in more baseball fields being built. That's how markets work. If the Everglades were being filled in to build baseball fields, I might speculate how ethical it is to buy a season ticket.

NFTs driving up demand for Ethereum is going to result in more mining of Ethereum. Considering how easy it is not to engage in this nonsense, it's perfectly reasonable to ask why anyone would opt for such a wildly energy-wasteful venue.
LoL Christ. Whatever ST. Keep fighting the good fight.
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Old 1st December 2021, 12:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Really the only way to turn real world artwork into an NFT would be to take a picture of it, tokenize it, and sell that to other people. Whomever bought it wouldn't have ownership of the physical artwork, just transactional ownership of the NFT. If your child puts a creation or ownership royalty on it then every time that NFT of the physical artwork is sold they will get a percentage of that transaction. I mostly see it sit at around 2.5%.

That being said, they could sell the NFT and include the shipping\sending of the physical artwork as part of the NFT bundle, as it were. I have never really heard much about that, but I don't deal in NFT artwork. Just the games.
Not really. There is nothing that meaningfully binds an NFT to an actual digital artwork either. You could sell an NFT without ever letting the buyer see the proper original. The reason you can't sell NFTs of real world art is that no one has been able to trick people into thinking that this has value, likely because there is a more tangible separation between the digital and the real world, even though there is no appreciable difference once you start thinking about it.
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Old 1st December 2021, 12:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, it doesn't. Your own article doesn't even blame NFTs. I don't know why you guys keep posting this **** but it's not true.
It is true. Every transaction on the Ethereum blockchain is energy-intensive, not just mining. It's why the images nominally associated with NFTs aren't encoded for transmission on the blockchain--doing so would be cost-prohibitive.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:23 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
It is true. Every transaction on the Ethereum blockchain is energy-intensive, not just mining. It's why the images nominally associated with NFTs aren't encoded for transmission on the blockchain--doing so would be cost-prohibitive.
Every ******* transaction ever is energy-intensive. What kind of nonsense is that? Or do credit card readers, computers, tills, registers, and ATMs not use any power? Haha that is awesome. Good call. You really got me there.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:25 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Not really. There is nothing that meaningfully binds an NFT to an actual digital artwork either. You could sell an NFT without ever letting the buyer see the proper original. The reason you can't sell NFTs of real world art is that no one has been able to trick people into thinking that this has value, likely because there is a more tangible separation between the digital and the real world, even though there is no appreciable difference once you start thinking about it.
Duly noted.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Every ******* transaction ever is energy-intensive.
Not at all true. The http transaction that will be performed when I submit this post is not energy-intensive.

Quote:
Or do credit card readers, computers, tills, registers, and ATMs not use any power? Haha that is awesome. Good call. You really got me there.
You're simply ignoring the word intensive here, which is completely disingenuous.

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Old 1st December 2021, 01:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Every ******* transaction ever is energy-intensive. What kind of nonsense is that? Or do credit card readers, computers, tills, registers, and ATMs not use any power? Haha that is awesome. Good call. You really got me there.
Most such transactions are designed to be as energy-efficient as possible. For a lot of obvious reasons, including aggregate energy costs over (hundreds of) thousands of transactions, and handling waste heat.

The thing about some kinds of blockchain transactions, apparently, is that they are matters of brute forcing some large mathematical calculation. This involves a lot of effort, and therefore a lot of energy. It's a question of how many ATM transactions, or credit card verifications, you could do, for the same energy cost and waste heat as fetching a single NFT from the blockchain.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:54 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Most such transactions are designed to be as energy-efficient as possible. For a lot of obvious reasons, including aggregate energy costs over (hundreds of) thousands of transactions, and handling waste heat.

The thing about some kinds of blockchain transactions, apparently, is that they are matters of brute forcing some large mathematical calculation. This involves a lot of effort, and therefore a lot of energy. It's a question of how many ATM transactions, or credit card verifications, you could do, for the same energy cost and waste heat as fetching a single NFT from the blockchain.
I think the important thing here is that everyone is in agreement that they want nothing to do with NFTs, and that NFTs are destroying the planet.

Which is awesome. It's a great logical conclusion to come to and I have no further need to defend it. I made the points I wanted to and I have no desire to proceed. Same thing I said in the other thread before this one came along. You guys seem to have it pegged and, lets face it, no one is changing their minds here. So, I bid you guys a good day.
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Old 1st December 2021, 02:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Which is awesome. It's a great logical conclusion to come to and I have no further need to defend it. I made the points I wanted to and I have no desire to proceed. Same thing I said in the other thread before this one came along. You guys seem to have it pegged and, lets face it, no one is changing their minds here. So, I bid you guys a good day.
If you aren't going to change your mind, or at least your rhetoric, in light of the facts of the matter, you should be aware that your beliefs are then necessarily dogmatic.
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:45 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
It is true. Every transaction on the Ethereum blockchain is energy-intensive, not just mining. It's why the images nominally associated with NFTs aren't encoded for transmission on the blockchain--doing so would be cost-prohibitive.
You are thinking of bitcoin which uses a "proof of work" mining algorithm. Ethereum uses a "proof of stake" algorithm which does not increase the energy required if more miners get in on the act.
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are thinking of bitcoin which uses a "proof of work" mining algorithm. Ethereum uses a "proof of stake" algorithm which does not increase the energy required if more miners get in on the act.
That's incorrect. Both Bitcoin and Ethereum use proof-of-work verification.
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Old 1st December 2021, 07:44 PM   #30
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https://ethereum.org/en/developers/d...echanisms/pos/
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Old 1st December 2021, 08:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"Is moving to".
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Old 2nd December 2021, 12:37 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
"Is moving to".
And bitcoin isn't.

If you are worried about the energy consumption then you can just wait.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 12:45 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And bitcoin isn't.

If you are worried about the energy consumption then you can just wait.
What does that have to do with anything?
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Old 2nd December 2021, 09:44 AM   #34
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When will we see people investing in World of Warcraft gold?
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Old 2nd December 2021, 09:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When will we see people investing in World of Warcraft gold?
2004, apparently.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 10:04 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When will we see people investing in World of Warcraft gold?
People were buying Everquest platinum in 2000. I know because I was selling it.

ETA: Come to think of it, I sold my EQ characters for a few grand total back in the day too. My how we've come so far.
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Old 4th December 2021, 07:27 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They switch their Canadian cash to American cash because it's easier to do business when everyone is using the same currency.ll.
Y’a think? /s/ That’s the whole point of currency.
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Old 4th December 2021, 07:40 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And bitcoin isn't.

If you are worried about the energy consumption then you can just wait.
Yes, hopefully moving away from these dumpster fire crypto currencies will make NFTs less environmentally disastrous. They will remain speculative vehicles that are frequently used to scam rubes out of their cash, but at least they won't have such extreme externalized costs. In a better world, only people gambling at the crypto casino will be harmed by this trash.
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Old 4th December 2021, 10:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, hopefully moving away from these dumpster fire crypto currencies will make NFTs less environmentally disastrous. They will remain speculative vehicles that are frequently used to scam rubes out of their cash, but at least they won't have such extreme externalized costs. In a better world, only people gambling at the crypto casino will be harmed by this trash.
This may not be the bitcoin thread but that doesn't mean that you can repeat this thoroughly debunked nonsense as if nobody has said it before.

Once we have a proven crypto that doesn't use POW, doesn't have excessive transaction costs, is scalable and isn't dominated by whales, we will have the makings of a true crypto currency.
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Old 5th December 2021, 06:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This may not be the bitcoin thread but that doesn't mean that you can repeat this thoroughly debunked nonsense as if nobody has said it before.

Once we have a proven crypto that doesn't use POW, doesn't have excessive transaction costs, is scalable and isn't dominated by whales, we will have the makings of a true crypto currency.
Lol. "Real cryptocurrency has never been tried".
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