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Old 5th December 2021, 07:17 AM   #3481
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
See wikileaks memo re Carl Bildt and the CIA. Bildt appointed the Swedish-led JAIC member. His military defence leader, Svensson announced almost on Day One the bodies should not be recovered.

There were reports of fifteen men in US Marine uniform escorting two mysterious trucks onto the vessel. One entered onto the consignment notes at the last minute and the other - oddly - notified to the Port Authorities/Customs by Andresson during the journey.

Likewise at the time, there was still controversy over the assassination of Olof Palme, and with 70 Stockholm police officers - of whom only four to six survived - there is every reason to look towards the politics, given it was Bildt who announced the accident was the bow visor falling off within hours of the accident when it vessel wasn't even located until two days later and a sonar imaging - which showed a bow visor shape under the bulbous bow - six days later, retracted and the bow visor then not found until circa 17/18 October 1994.

Bildt led the narrative, that is why he is mentioned.
Where are there reports of fifteen men in US Marine uniform escorting two mysterious trucks onto the vessel?

Was Olof Palme involved in the sinking?

Were the 70 police officers from the USA?

How were they involved in the sinking?

Do you think the bow visor was on the ship when it sank?

Was it moved later and who by?

If it was on the ship why do you claim it was blown off by explosives?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:18 AM   #3482
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is well-documented.
Where is it 'well documented'?

What does being a 'puppet' of the USA involve?

Does it involve the Swedish navy sinking foreign passenger ships when commanded by the USA?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:18 AM   #3483
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is it a false equivalent?

It is a ship of the same design and construction operating in the same waters.

The Administration says that no information on the incident was received until after the Estonia accident.
An inspector from the Administration visited the Diana II about one month after the visor incident.
He was called to survey a gangway and says that at the time of the visit, he had no information on any damage to or repair of the bow visor or its attachments.

Do you think that if the ship or shipping line had passed on the information about the damage the Administration could have inspected both the bow of the Dianna II and the Estonia?
Yes, after the mass public hysteria - BBC even ran a programme on The Herald of Free Enterprise-type accidents, suggesting an extra 'gate' (bow visor) and car ramp indicator lights be brought in, unaware the Finns/Swedes/Germans already did all of this - all car ferries were being frantically checked and flaws and defects found. It does not prove that it was the bolts, locks, hinges and lugs that were the primary cause of the Estonia accident, and even if they were, it would not sink like that. Even the JAIC had to grudgingly admit that.

It used the Diana II Atlantic lock to support its theory that this was the lock that failed first, simultaneously loosening the other locks.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:19 AM   #3484
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It undermines the JAIC conclusions. Hoffmeister's report was dated September 1996. Why didn't the JAIC acknowledge the challenge in their report, being for the shipbuilders and their right of reply at being blamed?
How does it undermine the JAIC conclusions when it doesn't say that there was sabotage?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:20 AM   #3485
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Originally Posted by Here_to_learn View Post
Again, I'm not doing your work. Show me the document that shows that Card Bildt contacted Bill Clinton to get approval for forming a government..

And again, no sources, but can I assume that Bildt somehow was involved in this also according to your story, since you bring it up?
He was still in office ATT.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:21 AM   #3486
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
and yet just yesterday and earlier today you were making comparisons with a liner that sank for different reasons to those of the Estonia.
I think you'll find that London John hilariously introduced the Oceanos.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:22 AM   #3487
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yes, it was a storm. What is with all the odd descriptors you are trying to add to my plain words? Do you get satisfaction from pretending that people have posted things they have not?
You said there was a storm, as if this was somehow significant.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:22 AM   #3488
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This was a normally bad autumn storm in the Baltic, not Shakespeare's Tempest, with sorcerers and magicians able to conjure up a supernatural wave cast by the diabolical hand of the wicked one.
6 to 8 meter waves are pretty bad.
I have sailed in them aboard a ship designed to weather storms of that, and greater magnitude.
You haven't the slightest idea.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:27 AM   #3489
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where are there reports of fifteen men in US Marine uniform escorting two mysterious trucks onto the vessel?

Was Olof Palme involved in the sinking?

Were the 70 police officers from the USA?

How were they involved in the sinking?

Do you think the bow visor was on the ship when it sank?

Was it moved later and who by?

If it was on the ship why do you claim it was blown off by explosives?
The CIA, MI6 and KSI were helping newly independent Estonia develop its own security services, the KGB having been thrown out. The West were very interested in Russia's military secrets and the Swedes did indeed smuggle out ex-Soviet military materiel on behalf of hostile powers (to Russia).

Why do you think the police were at a conference in Tallinn?

To discuss road traffic, perhaps?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:29 AM   #3490
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where is it 'well documented'?

What does being a 'puppet' of the USA involve?

Does it involve the Swedish navy sinking foreign passenger ships when commanded by the USA?
President Clinton was keen to portray himself as peace maker extraordinaire of the Middle East. Let's face it it is this man's vanity that the causes of the Estonia accident were deemed 'classified' (I believe for 70 years). Just to save this vain man's face.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:30 AM   #3491
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why else would then-USA-puppets Sweden* immediately come out with a cock and bull story within hours of the accident?

*As evidenced by then PM Carl Bildt (for an independent sovereign state) sending Bill Clinton (a foreign power) his desired coalition government for approval.
Originally Posted by Here_to_learn View Post
Again, I'm not doing your work. Show me the document that shows that Card Bildt contacted Bill Clinton to get approval for forming a government..?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He was still in office ATT.
Nope, you fail again. Show the sources for your statement, or admit you you were lying.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:31 AM   #3492
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, after the mass public hysteria - BBC even ran a programme on The Herald of Free Enterprise-type accidents, suggesting an extra 'gate' (bow visor) and car ramp indicator lights be brought in, unaware the Finns/Swedes/Germans already did all of this - all car ferries were being frantically checked and flaws and defects found. It does not prove that it was the bolts, locks, hinges and lugs that were the primary cause of the Estonia accident, and even if they were, it would not sink like that. Even the JAIC had to grudgingly admit that.

It used the Diana II Atlantic lock to support its theory that this was the lock that failed first, simultaneously loosening the other locks.
Did you read the report on the Diana II? It's locks broke apart before the Estonia incident.
It shows that yes, it was the bolts, locks, hinges and lugs that were the primary cause of the Estonia accident, they failed in the same way as those on the Diana II.
If it had been properly reported by the shipping line then the Estonia could have been checked for similar damage.
How is that 'mass public hysteria'?

When the Estonia sank it was still not compliant with the new requirements for bulkheads brought in after the Herald OF Free Enterprise sinking.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:32 AM   #3493
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How does it undermine the JAIC conclusions when it doesn't say that there was sabotage?
It says the JAIC conclusion the bow visor had a design defect was erroneous.

This must ipso facto mean the JAIC report is defective,
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:34 AM   #3494
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You said there was a storm, as if this was somehow significant.
Of course it was significant. If it had been calm weather the bow visor would not have been stressed and it would not have come loose.
It may have been possible to that the defects would be discovered and fixed before it went in to a storm.

Why would you think the storm wasn't significant?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:34 AM   #3495
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
6 to 8 meter waves are pretty bad.
I have sailed in them aboard a ship designed to weather storms of that, and greater magnitude.
You haven't the slightest idea.
Poor logic. A passenger car ferry sailing in the Baltic on a normally bad late September evening - just like the Europa, Mariella, Symphony and Isabella - was quite normal.


In severe weather warnings, these vessels do not sail.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:35 AM   #3496
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You said there was a storm, as if this was somehow significant.
It was significant. Very. The continuous wave action, 6 meters+ in height, associated with the storm caused a catastrophic failure of previously compromised bow components, following which further continuous wave action associated with the storm caused sea water to enter the open hull of the Estonia in quantities that precluded the ship remaining buoyant on the surface of the water (ie; it sank!).

If there was not a storm that night the Estonia would not have sank that night. It does not get any more significant than that.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:36 AM   #3497
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The CIA, MI6 and KSI were helping newly independent Estonia develop its own security services, the KGB having been thrown out. The West were very interested in Russia's military secrets and the Swedes did indeed smuggle out ex-Soviet military materiel on behalf of hostile powers (to Russia).

Why do you think the police were at a conference in Tallinn?

To discuss road traffic, perhaps?
OK so no evidence for US Marines loading trucks on to the ship and the police officers aboard had nothing to do with the sinking?

Why do you bring them up?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:37 AM   #3498
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
President Clinton was keen to portray himself as peace maker extraordinaire of the Middle East. Let's face it it is this man's vanity that the causes of the Estonia accident were deemed 'classified' (I believe for 70 years). Just to save this vain man's face.
So no evidence that Sweden was a 'puppet' of the USA.

What is your evidence that Clinton had any involvement in the sinking or the enquiry?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:38 AM   #3499
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Did you read the report on the Diana II? It's locks broke apart before the Estonia incident.
It shows that yes, it was the bolts, locks, hinges and lugs that were the primary cause of the Estonia accident, they failed in the same way as those on the Diana II.
If it had been properly reported by the shipping line then the Estonia could have been checked for similar damage.
How is that 'mass public hysteria'?

When the Estonia sank it was still not compliant with the new requirements for bulkheads brought in after the Herald OF Free Enterprise sinking.
Circular logic. Had explosives been applied to the for'ard bulkead then the thing would have fallen off anyway.

The Estonia bow visor did not fail in the way the JAIC said according to Hamburg University. They cannot both be right. One of these two parties is making a specious claim.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:39 AM   #3500
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It says the JAIC conclusion the bow visor had a design defect was erroneous.

This must ipso facto mean the JAIC report is defective,
But the bow visor did have a design fault, it fell off and the locks broke. Just like they did on the Diana II but luckily the problem on that ship was noticed and they were repaired.

There were no design or strength standard for bow visors at the time so how would the designers know if there was a fault?

How does the report show you that there was sabotage?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:40 AM   #3501
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Poor logic. A passenger car ferry sailing in the Baltic on a normally bad late September evening - just like the Europa, Mariella, Symphony and Isabella - was quite normal.


In severe weather warnings, these vessels do not sail.
But sailing at full speed in to the weather is not normal, Other ships in the area had taken weather routing and slowed down.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:40 AM   #3502
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Of course it was significant. If it had been calm weather the bow visor would not have been stressed and it would not have come loose.
It may have been possible to that the defects would be discovered and fixed before it went in to a storm.

Why would you think the storm wasn't significant?
Don't you need to prove the bow visor was stressed by wave in the first place? On the stroke of Swedish midnight, too.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:42 AM   #3503
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The CIA, MI6 and KSI were helping newly independent Estonia develop its own security services, the KGB having been thrown out. The West were very interested in Russia's military secrets and the Swedes did indeed smuggle out ex-Soviet military materiel on behalf of hostile powers (to Russia).

Why do you think the police were at a conference in Tallinn?

To discuss road traffic, perhaps?
NKVD, FSO, FSB, GRU, OSS, Mossad, DGSI, GCHQ, chuck them all in to your wild CT, why not? It's all wild fantasy after all.

And do you really think it is somehow suspicious that police attended a police conference? What do you think happened there? They all agreed that whoever got the short straw would drown?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:45 AM   #3504
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
President Clinton was keen to portray himself as peace maker extraordinaire of the Middle East. Let's face it it is this man's vanity that the causes of the Estonia accident were deemed 'classified' (I believe for 70 years). Just to save this vain man's face.
Wut? Estonia sank in the middle east now? If you want to randomly connect dots, it helps if you have dots to start with.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:45 AM   #3505
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So no evidence that Sweden was a 'puppet' of the USA.

What is your evidence that Clinton had any involvement in the sinking or the enquiry?
As POTUS Clinton was presumed head of the CIA (of course his Generals report to him and he does as they say). At the time Clinton was a great peace ambassador. Being potentially caught smuggling stuff to Israel wasn't something it wanted coming out; it just did what it normally does and called it 'classified'.


Image intact.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:46 AM   #3506
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But the bow visor did have a design fault, it fell off and the locks broke. Just like they did on the Diana II but luckily the problem on that ship was noticed and they were repaired.

There were no design or strength standard for bow visors at the time so how would the designers know if there was a fault?

How does the report show you that there was sabotage?
You need to address that question to Mojo as he seems to think it should.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:50 AM   #3507
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Poor logic. A passenger car ferry sailing in the Baltic on a normally bad late September evening - just like the Europa, Mariella, Symphony and Isabella - was quite normal.


In severe weather warnings, these vessels do not sail.
Do you recall a rather recent post in this thread - "Comparisons are odious."?

Anyway, many ships have sailed without incident in similar weather conditions to those the Estonia encountered that night. No one has disputed that. In your own words "This was a normally bad autumn storm in the Baltic". So apparently no *severe weather warning* was required and this vessel, and others, were ok to sail. The 6 meter+ waves in the normally bad autumn storm in the Baltic were sufficient to cause a catastrophic failure of the previously compromised bow components of this particular ship..
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:52 AM   #3508
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But sailing at full speed in to the weather is not normal, Other ships in the area had taken weather routing and slowed down.
The other ships were coming from Helsinki, thus they could hug the Finnish coastline. Did you know Tallinn to Stockholm consists of open sea until such point it reaches the Finnish archipelago?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:52 AM   #3509
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is true nobody saw the visor fall off. Nobody saw the car ramp open. There is a very good chance that the visor was still hanging off when the ship sank.

There is zero evidence the bow visor fell off at 0115 as the JAIC claim. That is purely hypothetical.

Sillaste, whom Bildt and Lehtola quote, in an early press release, has never said the bow visor was missing.
That is not what he is saying though, is it? He isn't saying "no one saw it fall off" he's saying it was still attached to the ship when the ship sank.

Stop attempting to stuff words into peoples mouths to get them to say what you want and deal with what is being said. You've done it to several of your interlocutors and now you're doing it to your own source. Anders Bjorkman is a delusional moron, not a credible expert.

Also you still have yet to substantiate your lie that Bildt asked Clinton to approve his government picks. You're now desperately flailing at something, anything that makes Clinton look bad as if it answers our questions to you.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:53 AM   #3510
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What kind of bizarre logic would have this:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't you need to prove the bow visor was stressed by wave in the first place?
and this:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
On the stroke of Swedish midnight, too.
posted in the same paragraph as if there was any remote connection between them?
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:55 AM   #3511
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As POTUS Clinton was presumed head of the CIA (of course his Generals report to him and he does as they say). At the time Clinton was a great peace ambassador. Being potentially caught smuggling stuff to Israel wasn't something it wanted coming out; it just did what it normally does and called it 'classified'.


Image intact.
WHAT?

You think the President is head of the CIA?

You can't be serious.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:55 AM   #3512
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
NKVD, FSO, FSB, GRU, OSS, Mossad, DGSI, GCHQ, chuck them all in to your wild CT, why not? It's all wild fantasy after all.

And do you really think it is somehow suspicious that police attended a police conference? What do you think happened there? They all agreed that whoever got the short straw would drown?
I didn't say it was suspicious. I was pointing out they were helping out Estonia develop its own intelligence services, as there are some people who think it is a conspiracy theory that they would do this.
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Old 5th December 2021, 07:57 AM   #3513
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The other ships were coming from Helsinki, thus they could hug the Finnish coastline. Did you know Tallinn to Stockholm consists of open sea until such point it reaches the Finnish archipelago?
More *odious comparisons* . Why do you keep posting such irrelevant *odious comparisons*? What happened to other ships that night has no bearing on the events on the Estonia. Perhaps you should try to stay on topic and stop responding to *odious comparisons* posted by others.
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:00 AM   #3514
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
WHAT?

You think the President is head of the CIA?

You can't be serious.
Unfortunately everything posted by Vixen is deadly serious. ....... Unless she attempts an after-the-fact face saving and describes it as a "quip".
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:00 AM   #3515
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wut? Estonia sank in the middle east now? If you want to randomly connect dots, it helps if you have dots to start with.
The attaché case retrieved by Rockwater belonged to a staunch Russian Jewish Zionist who was an arms trader.

He appears to have been sharing a cabin with Captain Piht.

Jutta Rabe says she was informed by an insider that the FSU materiel on board was intended for Israel and there were two US-registered cargo planes at Arlanda on that date which flew out with nine unnamed passengers circa 29 September, one to Maine and the other to Amsterdam (a transition airport) and the US Embassy in Stockholm paid for them.

Do you see the political row this might have caused if it had come to light?
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:00 AM   #3516
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As POTUS Clinton was presumed head of the CIA (of course his Generals report to him and he does as they say). At the time Clinton was a great peace ambassador. Being potentially caught smuggling stuff to Israel wasn't something it wanted coming out; it just did what it normally does and called it 'classified'.


Image intact.
Israel is not anywhere near the Baltic. What fresh hell is this claim?
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:02 AM   #3517
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The attaché case retrieved by Rockwater belonged to a staunch Russian Jewish Zionist who was an arms trader.

He appears to have been sharing a cabin with Captain Piht.

Jutta Rabe says she was informed by an insider that the FSU materiel on board was intended for Israel and there were two US-registered cargo planes at Arlanda on that date which flew out with nine unnamed passengers circa 29 September, one to Maine and the other to Amsterdam (a transition airport) and the US Embassy in Stockholm paid for them.

Do you see the political row this might have caused if it had come to light?
You have now very cleverly brought it to light. Can we expect an imminent political row?
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:03 AM   #3518
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
WHAT?

You think the President is head of the CIA?

You can't be serious.
As POTUS he is nominally in charge of everything.
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:04 AM   #3519
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Israel is not anywhere near the Baltic. What fresh hell is this claim?
Baltic, Mediterranean, it's all just water.
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Old 5th December 2021, 08:05 AM   #3520
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As POTUS he is nominally in charge of everything.
Such ignorance is quite astounding! Perhaps you are thinking of Putin?
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