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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:04 AM   #201
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
You haven't proven that 'objects of mass' exist either.

You ignored ThirdEyeOpen, photons are objects of mass, they have mass because they are in motion. Otherwise they have zero rest mass, isn't that cool! The universe does not care what makes sense to us.

I assume that you are not refering to mass as the property of invariant interial type (not using the jargon right, the property of resistance to force) but in the common usage of matter, have you understood Bose-Einstein Condensate and that the wave-particle duality is not really a duality yet?
Nope and to be honest I would really like to, Going to university and studying this stuff would have been a dream come true....but alas not the way of it....my calling so to speak was in other directions but maybe in the future I'll get a chance to learn your language. Esp calculus I reckon that'd be fun..

any ways this is off topic....

a photon in itself can not be observed in transit from point a. to b. correct?

it can only be observed by the effect it has on an object capable of absorbing and emitting it [ note the change in wording]
what is to say that the efffect is merely the object that would other wise be abklt to absorb and emit it? and provide exactly the same effect.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:05 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
thanks for the tip save some time....

answer to your end question:
As i said when my head starts to bleed from bashing it against the pc monitor, thats how I know it exists.
News for you:

When you bash your head against the monitor (I don't know why you are doing this, but to each his own), that force is conveyed by photons.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:06 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
We've been through that.

First: There is no such thing as a stationary photon, not under any circumstances, not even imaginary ones. So your distinction of "travelling photons" is meaningless.

Second, no, you are completely wrong. All the effects that are demonstrated currently are explained fully by photons. Thus, anything else that explains those effects also acts precisely like a photon. In other words, it is a photon.
actually yo may be able to help me here:

if a photon travells past an object , say a planet like earth for 2 seconds how much change has occured on that planet and how does that planet change?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:07 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
so whats your point?

there is actually no evidence shown so far in thei thread for the photon , only evidence of an effect that is attributed to a abstraction called a photon.

claim: The photon is an imaginary artifact used to explain an effect....
the last I heard it actually was suggested it had a gravity wake behind it and on top of that you can not even determine whether it is a particle or a wave...if I am not mistaken.
Ah, you need to delve more into QM, the particle wave duality is more a complementary thing. It is a property of what we can ascribe to an object through interaction.

It basicaly goes like this (in vague genral terms):
-All things have both wave and particle properties
-the smaller an object the more like a wave it behaves
-the larger an object the more like a particle it behaves
-the smaller an object the more like a wave it behaves
-the higher a velocity in interaction is the more like a particle it behaves
-wave functions do not collapse they intersect
-Bose-Einstein Condensate exists

Things to Google, electrons and single and double slits
Quote:


It has been often suggested that a single photon exists every where from it's RF but travels from ours... [ vague detail I know]
Um sounds like Feynman's sum over histories?
Quote:

so I wonder what other fancy attributes we will grant our humble imaginary travelling artifact... I guess it is what ever supports the model yes?
sort of like see an unexplained effect and reconfigure the photon to suit the model...[abstraction]
See you have shown your basic misunderstanding of what i have been saying:

Words like objects, mass, photon, particle, wave ARE all abstractions science and theory is pragmatic, you use what works.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:08 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
a photon in itself can not be observed in transit from point a. to b. correct?
Correct.

Quote:
it can only be observed by the effect it has on an object capable of absorbing and emitting it [ note the change in wording]
Capable of absorbing it, yes.

Quote:
what is to say that the efffect is merely the object that would other wise be abklt to absorb and emit it? and provide exactly the same effect.
No. Complete nonsense.

Take a polished metal plate. Put it in a dark room. What happens?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:11 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
and it takes time years in some cases and heaps of discussion to develop even a starting point.
and as yet the mind set is so closed it is impossible to even begin.
and then after producing an even close proximity of a simple hypothesis it woud take a fuirther decade or more to move towards theory, so where are we at in this potential time line do you think...

not even started, just simply exploring all the attitudes that prevent even exploring the possibility of an alternative.

Look here dude/mate, there are hundreds of thousands of boffos and bright boys and girls who study these things. Everyone one of them would like to be the one who overturns a standing paradigm.

They all explore alternatives all the time, and then they decide which ones are pragmatic and work.

please spare us the meme of 'science as dogma', it makes you look like a crack pot.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:11 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Correct.


Capable of absorbing it, yes.


No. Complete nonsense.

Take a polished metal plate. Put it in a dark room. What happens?
so you are saying there is no EM in a dark room? beghad
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:15 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post

a photon in itself can not be observed in transit from point a. to b. correct?

it can only be observed by the effect it has on an object capable of absorbing and emitting it [ note the change in wording]
what is to say that the efffect is merely the object that would other wise be abklt to absorb and emit it? and provide exactly the same effect.
So, let me see if I understand what you're asking. You have an object (say, a retina), which reacts when struck by a photon. I would say that the photon (or however many photons are required to be visible to the retina) has an effect on the eye, but you're arguing that the effect could just be something that's generated by the retina itself?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:17 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
so you are saying there is no EM in a dark room? beghad
Are you saying you can see a shiny metal plate in a dark room?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:18 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
actually yo may be able to help me here:

if a photon travells past an object , say a planet like earth for 2 seconds how much change has occured on that planet and how does that planet change?
Light is affected by gravity. This was predicted by relativity, and confirmed in 1918 by observing light from distant stars as it passed the Sun during an eclipse. The star appeared to be in a different place than it would have were it not that the light had bent as it passed by the Sun.

So a photon passing the Earth would likewise change its course. (It would pass the Earth in about one twentieth of a second, but never mind.) The Earth would reciprocally change its own orbit.

The effect on the Earth would be kind of small, though. A photon of visible light has an energy on the order of 1 electron volt, equivalent to a mass of about, uh, 10-36 kg. The Earth has a mass of about 6 x 1024 kg, 60 orders of magnitude more than the photon. In the vernacular, the Earth weighs a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times as much as a photon.

The effect on the Earth would thus be so small as to have no physical meaning.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:19 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
sorry but you must have not read the post fully:

I stated:

So how do we prove that a photon travels?
or that a travelling photon even exists, when it could simply be an effect within and on the surface of the mass used to measure it or detect it?

see in bold the bit you seem to have missed.

See here, you are showing some sort of silly facination with the abtracted term 'mass'. How do you know that mass/matter and energy are not one and the same?

have you looked at any QM yet? The universe does not meet our expectations most of the time:
In no particular order:
Double slit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment
Heisenberg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg
Pauli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Pauli
Schroedinger:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedinger
Bohr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr
Gell-Mann:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann
Feynman:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
Bose-Einstein Condesate:http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/bec/
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:20 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
so you are saying there is no EM in a dark room? beghad
What do you think?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:21 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Look here dude/mate, there are hundreds of thousands of boffos and bright boys and girls who study these things. Everyone one of them would like to be the one who overturns a standing paradigm.

They all explore alternatives all the time, and then they decide which ones are pragmatic and work.

please spare us the meme of 'science as dogma', it makes you look like a crack pot.
ok, I started off with this:


Quote:
Care to explore the possibility that the photon as a travelling particle or wave does not in fact exist?
then I got this from Pix immediately avoiding the question but knowing what I am asking:
Quote:
Sure.

Without photons, how do you explain the photoelectric effect?
showing that the evidence is only by default of not knwoing an alternative.

and that is considered as proof sufficient....

now to me even though I am no physicist I see that as simlpy avoiding the question, as effect is not proof of what is happening only proof that something is happening.

Then to claim authority by stating that it must be because it is the most blah blah theory etc is not proof but blatent call to authority.
the to demand and alternative...etc etc again avoiding the issue.

so as far as I can tell the question has been avoided, and sidestepped and certainly not dealt with in a professional manner deserving respect.
You wish to teach me physics or seriously consider the issue? which is it?

what do you want to do? explore the possibility of an alternative or shove my lack of education down my throat.....

see....not good...
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:22 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
See here, you are showing some sort of silly facination with the abtracted term 'mass'. How do you know that mass/matter and energy are not one and the same?

have you looked at any QM yet? The universe does not meet our expectations most of the time:
In no particular order:
Double slit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment
Heisenberg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg
Pauli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Pauli
Schroedinger:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedinger
Bohr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr
Gell-Mann:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann
Feynman:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
Bose-Einstein Condesate:http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/bec/
You missed my all-time favourite - the Elitzur-Vaidman quantum bomb tester.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:24 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
well you certainly can't prove the abstraction I reckon.

the mass: well the effect of blood dribbling down my face after bashing my monitor with it certainly proves something yes?
"Don't mess with mass" ha
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "- Inigo Montoya
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:24 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
What do you think?
asked you first pixi?

you will have to try other tactics as your constant avoidance is amazing but getting a bit drole
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:26 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "- Inigo Montoya
well what would you call a pc monitor,, apart from a pc monitor of course...
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:28 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
What do you think?
ever heard of the terms "bait and switch" pixi
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:30 AM   #219
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pix,
I suppose you think that the question of universal constants is going to be answer using our current photon model?
do you and how is that going to happen?

make sense, the question I mean, if not how should I phrase it to your liking?

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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:31 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
now to me even though I am no physicist I see that as simlpy avoiding the question, as effect is not proof of what is happening only proof that something is happening.
We've already been over this.

An effect is evidence of a cause.

The details of an effect are evidence of the details of the cause.

The photoelectric effect has been very precisely detailed. That says something very specific about what can cause it. Photons fit the bill precisely.

Photons also perfectly explain every other observed property of light.

Does that mean that there is no better explanation than the present theory of Quantum Electrodynamics? No.

What it does mean, though, is that any theory that replaces it has to be at least as accurate as QED in every respect, and also to make new and correct predictions that QED cannot make.

You can't just wander in and say "I have a theory about the brontosaurus" and expect anything but ridicule.

Quote:
Then to claim authority by stating that it must be because it is the most blah blah theory etc is not proof but blatent call to authority.
It's an appeal to reality.

To say that a theory is successful means not that people like it, but that it makes accurate predictions about what will happen in the real world.

Quote:
the to demand and alternative...etc etc again avoiding the issue.
Nope. It's the entire issue.

If you have a difference with the photon model, you have to point out somewhere that it differs with reality. That's it. If it predicts reality correctly, it's right and you're wrong.

Quote:
so as far as I can tell the question has been avoided, and sidestepped and certainly not dealt with in a professional manner deserving respect.
That's because you appear to have no understanding whatsoever of even the most basic elements of science, such as, for example, what a theory is.

Quote:
You wish to teach me physics or seriously consider the issue? which is it?
There is no issue, so we are trying to teach you enough physics that you can understand that there is no issue.

With, so far, limited success.

Quote:
what do you want to do? explore the possibility of an alternative or shove my lack of education down my throat.....
You have not presented any alternative.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:34 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
asked you first pixi?
No you didn't.

Quote:
you will have to try other tactics as your constant avoidance is amazing but getting a bit drole
That is amusing. You dodged my question. I have answered your questions over and over, and you simply ignore my answers when they don't suit you.

Let's try again. The room is dark, ozziemate. Do you understand what the word "dark" means?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:34 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
We've already been over this.

An effect is evidence of a cause.

The details of an effect are evidence of the details of the cause.

The photoelectric effect has been very precisely detailed. That says something very specific about what can cause it. Photons fit the bill precisely.

Photons also perfectly explain every other observed property of light.

Does that mean that there is no better explanation than the present theory of Quantum Electrodynamics? No.

What it does mean, though, is that any theory that replaces it has to be at least as accurate as QED in every respect, and also to make new and correct predictions that QED cannot make.

You can't just wander in and say "I have a theory about the brontosaurus" and expect anything but ridicule.


It's an appeal to reality.

To say that a theory is successful means not that people like it, but that it makes accurate predictions about what will happen in the real world.


Nope. It's the entire issue.

If you have a difference with the photon model, you have to point out somewhere that it differs with reality. That's it. If it predicts reality correctly, it's right and you're wrong.


That's because you appear to have no understanding whatsoever of even the most basic elements of science, such as, for example, what a theory is.


There is no issue, so we are trying to teach you enough physics that you can understand that there is no issue.

With, so far, limited success.


You have not presented any alternative.
and so what is the cause that is shown by the effect that is unambiguous?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:37 AM   #223
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[quote]
Quote:
Are you saying you can see a shiny metal plate in a dark room?
Quote:

so you are saying there is no EM in a dark room? beghad
still haven't answered this
the referecne was to an earlier post and in context ...are you taking it out of context pix?

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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:38 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
and so what is the cause that is shown by the effect that is unambiguous?
That has already been answered, over and over, and I am desperately trying to lead you towards it in such a way that you might finally grasp the point.

So, once again: What happens when you put a polished metal plate in a dark room?

Just answer the question.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:42 AM   #225
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Quote:
now to me even though I am no physicist I see that as simply avoiding the question, as effect is not proof of what is happening only proof that something is happening.
hey Pix maybe you would care to have a go at this ?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:44 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
hey Pix maybe you would care to have a go at this ?
Post 220.

Meanwhile: What happens when you put a polished metal plate in a dark room?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:48 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
That has already been answered, over and over, and I am desperately trying to lead you towards it in such a way that you might finally grasp the point.

So, once again: What happens when you put a polished metal plate in a dark room?

Just answer the question.
depends...uhmmm..
1what sort of plate?
2/ what sort of material is on the walls?
3/ Is it on the dark side of the planet or on the lit side.
4/ position of the sun relative
4.1 / where the moon is...
5/ at what position the galaxy is lined up and so on....

6/ is there anyone in the room with the plate? [ heat you know]
7/ is the plate close to a road
8/ how long was it in the sun for and how hot is it.
9/
10/
11/ what language do you want me to use....
being silly isn't it...
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:51 AM   #228
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Post 220.

Meanwhile: What happens when you put a polished metal plate in a dark room?
ok I'll play...
I have no idea....tell me what happens?
I guess you wish to differentiate between EM and our photon is that it?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:55 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
depends...uhmmm..
1what sort of plate?
A polished metal plate. Zinc, if you want.

Quote:
2/ what sort of material is on the walls?
ISO standard white latex paint over gyprock.

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3/ Is it on the dark side of the planet or on the lit side.
It's midnight.

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4/ position of the sun relative
You are on the equator at the Summer solstice, so the Sun is precisely on the other side of the planet.

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4.1 / where the moon is...
It's a total solar eclipse right at this very moment.

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5/ at what position the galaxy is lined up and so on....
You do the calculations.

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6/ is there anyone in the room with the plate? [ heat you know]
No.

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7/ is the plate close to a road
No.

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8/ how long was it in the sun for and how hot is it.
It has never been exposed to sunlight. It is currently precisely 310K in the room. The plate has achieved thermal equilibrium with the air.

Quote:
being silly isn't it...
Yes.

So answer the question.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 05:58 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
ok I'll play...
I have no idea....tell me what happens?
Nothing.

Quote:
I guess you wish to differentiate between EM and our photon is that it?
What? What? No, seriously, what? No, never mind, I don't want to know.

Next step:

You take the plate - the same plate - and put it in direct noonday equatorial sunlight on a cloudless day on the Summer solstice.

What happens?
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Old 2nd October 2008, 06:17 AM   #231
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While this may be frustrating for you, PixyMisa, I find it useful and enjoyable to watch you go through the process of leading the horse to water (for those times when the horse is actually interested in a drink).

Linda
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Old 2nd October 2008, 06:25 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
While this may be frustrating for you, PixyMisa, I find it useful and enjoyable to watch you go through the process of leading the horse to water (for those times when the horse is actually interested in a drink).

Linda
Seconded! Just think of all the other thirsty horses watching you from the sidelines and learning where the watering trough is. You help put the E in JREF.

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Old 2nd October 2008, 06:40 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
correction you mean travelling photon.
why would I do that as no one has provided any?
Please explain in detail (i.e. more than one or two dismissive sentences with vague reference to "objects of mass") why the photoelectric effect does not suffice for you.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 07:53 AM   #234
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nope...did a bit of a think and realised I am way out of my depth. A couple of things said by Pix has lead me to reassess the issue.
Proof of a travelling photon is unambiguous according to tested and tried methods.
I guess the constants are going to have to wait... for someone else to work it out because I must be mistaken.
any ways the thread op stands if you want to continue but I'll just lurk in the background and lick my wounds...

Thanks guys and gals for your tolerance...
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Old 2nd October 2008, 08:40 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
just need to confirm that drawing energy from the vacuum is not in conflict with the laws of conservation etc....

Um wiki vitual particles and vacuum energy. The partciles are not coming from nothing, they come from the 'ground state' of space time.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 08:44 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
there are only effects that support the idea that a photon may be involved an dthere is reason to believe that the travelling photon may be redundant.

The reason why I am not posting my ideas is that the climate of this forum would render it a waste of effort and time which I do not have a lot of to play with this sort of thing.
You have to control this behavior, it makes you look really crack pot.

If your idea is good it will stand scrutiny. If not you will learn alot.

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However I am attempting to work out an approach that may allow freedom to explore alternative ideas [and then on to hypothesis in a way that will mean less confrontation with strongly held belief.
But I will not write the hyposthesis, you guys will.
So in other words you are lazy. Okay.
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And I am not sure I am prepared to offer that to you all.
My Secret Master Hoot Koomi has Forbidden me to reaveal The Secret!
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There is a couple of key areas involved that once clarified in your minds will make a big difference to how you view the possibiity of an alternative model to the photon model. However in the current state of ridicule it would be futile to even venture down that path.

So you have a vague muddle of ideas, don't know how to defned them but expect patience. Shhesh.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 08:46 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
you really don't want to know do you?






ahh but you cannot describe why physics is the same universally can you?



ha talk about a contradiction....you got it right unless ther is eveidence to the contrary... got it right in absolute terms ha....




Because inertia and for that matter gravity would cease to be a universal constants if the travelling photon existed.

so you gotta ask yourself the question how are universal constants supported in a universe that requires a photon to hang it all together using the current space time paradigm?

any ideas you would like to suggest? Go on go out on a limb and make a few suggestions please...

Wow, no ideas just smoke and mirrors and now youw ant us to do your work for you!
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Old 2nd October 2008, 09:04 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
good post and very open to possibilities... thanks.. I find no fault with it....
I think too many posters, here, are too quick to declare someone a "troll", sometimes. They forget they once had innocent questions, such as yours, themselves.

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
You couldn't have picked a worse example than plate tectonics, it took ages for that theory to become widely accepted, despite observations that could be explained no other way. Until a plausible mechanism was found for continental drift people just refused to believe that continents could move around "through solid rock".
I meant how quickly plate-techtonics was accepted after the plausible mechanism (model) was presented.

An alternative to the photon would be the same way. Find the plausible replacement model, that explains a lot more about physics, and watch it take over the place!
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Old 2nd October 2008, 09:31 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Seriously, how do you expect to accomplish this?
Cranks have their ways. They show up at conferences, email professors and so on.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 09:39 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
now to me even though I am no physicist I see that as simlpy avoiding the question, as effect is not proof of what is happening only proof that something is happening.
As I said before, try explaining gravity without reference to the effects it has on other bodies.

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Then to claim authority by stating that it must be because it is the most blah blah theory etc is not proof but blatent call to authority.
No. A claim to authority would be saying "it must be true because Einstein said so". Saying something is very likely to be an accurate description of some aspect of the Universe because it is backed up by experiment after experiment after experiment and to an extraordinary precision is just sensible. Denying the existance of something in spite of overwhelming scientific evidence, as you have been, is the precise opposite of scepticism.
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